The Energon Pub

most auots could never fly in robot/alt mode so they require another form of transport which leads to the protoforms.

In the first or second episode all the autobots were flying in robot mode

syphonn wrote:Going back to their entry mode, the comet entry mode is a bad idea, that would definitely draw attention to them especially when a rock of that size makes it through the atmosphere. Plus, it would be alot easier for them to be tracked since they will follow a predictable path. If they were going to use an entry mode it would make sense for them to use one that is capable of space flight that they can use for a quiet controlled entry and of course capable of leaving the planet. Using Bay logic since they have the ability to change alt. modes at will they, as somewhere already suggested, probably have stored an alt. mode capable of leaving. But does that apply to non flyers?

Here's another question that will bake your noodles.

If an Autobot chooses to scan and reformat into a rocket, or jet fighter... will he be able to fly???

Auto Bot wrote:Here's another question that will bake your noodles.

If an Autobot chooses to scan and reformat into a rocket, or jet fighter... will he be able to fly???

Hmmmmm...

The rocket one is the more intriguing of the two.

An Autobot could scan the physical structure of the rocket and transform into it, no doubt. But what about the fuel? What makes a rocket unique is that all of the fuel and reactant (like an oxidizing agent) is self-contained, whereas a jet has to intake air for combustion to happen.

Could an Autobot manufacture that on the spot? Prolly not. It's sorta like the T-1000 from Terminator 2: it could transform into solid shapes of equal mass, but couldn't imitate complex things like working guns and bombs 'cuz those need chemical reactions to work.

So I guess an Autobot could morph into a rocket... but would good would it do him? He'd just transform and lay there and be a big thing for kids to climb up on and play around

Lord_Vulcan wrote:most auots could never fly in robot/alt mode so they require another form of transport which leads to the protoforms.

This post is classic.

For starters ... it's true, most autobots couldn't fly in either robot or alt mode ... in G1.

But then protoforms were introduced in Beast Wars and had nothing to do with G1.

Stuck in the past .... moving forward .... yet trying to apply both ways of thinking to a movie which is it's own storyline. Classic.

And obviously if a Autobot chooses to scan and reformat into a rocket or jet fighter they'd be able to fly.

Autobots are Cybertronians like Decepticons. If a Decepticon (like Starscream) can scan and reformat into a jet then obviously an Autobot (a fellow Cybertronian possessing the same scanning and reformatting technology) can do it too.

Fuel wise they wouldn't need it because they'd no doubt employ Cybertronian technology.

I mean really ... you don't see Starscream refuelling.

The Autobots however opted for civilian-esque vehicles for the best disguise as they knew they'd need to be in populated areas and military vehicles just stand out a little.

Burn wrote:The Autobots however opted for civilian-esque vehicles for the best disguise as they knew they'd need to be in populated areas and military vehicles just stand out a little.

That's an understatement. For instance, you wouldnt see a jet parked next to your home. Or a tank.

Burn wrote:

Lord_Vulcan wrote:most auots could never fly in robot/alt mode so they require another form of transport which leads to the protoforms.

This post is classic.

For starters ... it's true, most autobots couldn't fly in either robot or alt mode ... in G1.

But then protoforms were introduced in Beast Wars and had nothing to do with G1.

Stuck in the past .... moving forward .... yet trying to apply both ways of thinking to a movie which is it's own storyline. Classic.

And obviously if a Autobot chooses to scan and reformat into a rocket or jet fighter they'd be able to fly.

Autobots are Cybertronians like Decepticons. If a Decepticon (like Starscream) can scan and reformat into a jet then obviously an Autobot (a fellow Cybertronian possessing the same scanning and reformatting technology) can do it too.

Fuel wise they wouldn't need it because they'd no doubt employ Cybertronian technology.

I mean really ... you don't see Starscream refuelling.

The Autobots however opted for civilian-esque vehicles for the best disguise as they knew they'd need to be in populated areas and military vehicles just stand out a little.

If that is the case, then here's another twist.

During the battle scene where Ironhide, Bumblebee and Ratchet were being pounded by Starscream from above... One of them should have scanned one of the incoming F-22, reformat into that, take off, and kick Starscream's ass.

Instead of laying around on the road like a sitting duck.

Live's are at stake. Wouldn't you do that in this critical situation if you have the ability to reformat yourself?

Even just on a temporary basis, just to neutralize the threat.

Auto Bot wrote:

Burn wrote:

Lord_Vulcan wrote:most auots could never fly in robot/alt mode so they require another form of transport which leads to the protoforms.

This post is classic.

For starters ... it's true, most autobots couldn't fly in either robot or alt mode ... in G1.

But then protoforms were introduced in Beast Wars and had nothing to do with G1.

Stuck in the past .... moving forward .... yet trying to apply both ways of thinking to a movie which is it's own storyline. Classic.

And obviously if a Autobot chooses to scan and reformat into a rocket or jet fighter they'd be able to fly.

Autobots are Cybertronians like Decepticons. If a Decepticon (like Starscream) can scan and reformat into a jet then obviously an Autobot (a fellow Cybertronian possessing the same scanning and reformatting technology) can do it too.

Fuel wise they wouldn't need it because they'd no doubt employ Cybertronian technology.

I mean really ... you don't see Starscream refuelling.

The Autobots however opted for civilian-esque vehicles for the best disguise as they knew they'd need to be in populated areas and military vehicles just stand out a little.

If that is the case, then here's another twist.

During the battle scene where Ironhide, Bumblebee and Ratchet were being pounded by Starscream from above... One of them should have scanned one of the incoming F-22, reformat into that, take off, and kick Starscream's ass.

Instead of laying around on the road like a sitting duck.

Live's are at stake. Wouldn't you do that in this critical situation if you have the ability to reformat yourself?

Even just on a temporary basis, just to neutralize the threat.

Tyhe Movie continuity currently does not have mass/size-changing. The TFs can only scan altmodes that are around the same size as their robot mode.

Venom X wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

Burn wrote:

Lord_Vulcan wrote:most auots could never fly in robot/alt mode so they require another form of transport which leads to the protoforms.

This post is classic.

For starters ... it's true, most autobots couldn't fly in either robot or alt mode ... in G1.

But then protoforms were introduced in Beast Wars and had nothing to do with G1.

Stuck in the past .... moving forward .... yet trying to apply both ways of thinking to a movie which is it's own storyline. Classic.

And obviously if a Autobot chooses to scan and reformat into a rocket or jet fighter they'd be able to fly.

Autobots are Cybertronians like Decepticons. If a Decepticon (like Starscream) can scan and reformat into a jet then obviously an Autobot (a fellow Cybertronian possessing the same scanning and reformatting technology) can do it too.

Fuel wise they wouldn't need it because they'd no doubt employ Cybertronian technology.

I mean really ... you don't see Starscream refuelling.

The Autobots however opted for civilian-esque vehicles for the best disguise as they knew they'd need to be in populated areas and military vehicles just stand out a little.

If that is the case, then here's another twist.

During the battle scene where Ironhide, Bumblebee and Ratchet were being pounded by Starscream from above... One of them should have scanned one of the incoming F-22, reformat into that, take off, and kick Starscream's ass.

Instead of laying around on the road like a sitting duck.

Live's are at stake. Wouldn't you do that in this critical situation if you have the ability to reformat yourself?

Even just on a temporary basis, just to neutralize the threat.

Tyhe Movie continuity currently does not have mass/size-changing. The TFs can only scan altmodes that are around the same size as their robot mode.

Ironhide could have scanned a smaller jet. Or Prime could have scanned the F-22 Raptor. Ratchet could have scanned on of the military choppers (which are much smaller than Blackout)

Or anyone of them could have gone out of his way to find a suitable flying alt mode.

That is, if they were thinking.

Venom X wrote:

Burn wrote:The Autobots however opted for civilian-esque vehicles for the best disguise as they knew they'd need to be in populated areas and military vehicles just stand out a little.

That's an understatement. For instance, you wouldnt see a jet parked next to your home. Or a tank.

So the Decepticons didn't think of that.

Auto Bot wrote:During the battle scene where Ironhide, Bumblebee and Ratchet were being pounded by Starscream from above... One of them should have scanned one of the incoming F-22, reformat into that, take off, and kick Starscream's ass.

Instead of laying around on the road like a sitting duck.

Live's are at stake. Wouldn't you do that in this critical situation if you have the ability to reformat yourself?

You're going with the presumption that they can simply change forms at the drop of a hat.

I think you'll find they need to revert to Protoform first and that would require either outside machinery and/or lengthy process.

Plus being able to instantly scan and reconfigure would kind of defeat the idea of "transformers" to begin with as you could easily have one bot look like another and remove what individuality there was.

Auto Bot wrote:

Venom X wrote:

Burn wrote:The Autobots however opted for civilian-esque vehicles for the best disguise as they knew they'd need to be in populated areas and military vehicles just stand out a little.

That's an understatement. For instance, you wouldnt see a jet parked next to your home. Or a tank.

So the Decepticons didn't think of that.

The Decepticons chose power over stealth. (With the exception of Frenzy, but that was his character)

Bumblebee sure did reformat at the drop of a hat.

And he did that too while cruising sideways on 2 wheels!

Talk about multi-tasking!

(So it's not my assumption )

Burn wrote:Plus being able to instantly scan and reconfigure would kind of defeat the idea of "transformers" to begin with as you could easily have one bot look like another and remove what individuality there was.

That's exactly what i'm bitching about. In the Bay Movie, it was portrayed that they can simply change form anytime, at whim. Like Bumblebee did. Like Frenzy did. So why the need to transform?

Burn wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

Venom X wrote:

Burn wrote:The Autobots however opted for civilian-esque vehicles for the best disguise as they knew they'd need to be in populated areas and military vehicles just stand out a little.

That's an understatement. For instance, you wouldnt see a jet parked next to your home. Or a tank.

So the Decepticons didn't think of that.

The Decepticons chose power over stealth. (With the exception of Frenzy, but that was his character)

I just got this personal idea that bad guys or antagonists are the ones usually going for stealth.

Good guys are more comfortable in the open.

Auto Bot wrote:Bumblebee sure did reformat at the drop of a hat.

And he did that too while cruising sideways on 2 wheels!

Talk about multi-tasking!

(So it's not my assumption )

Burn wrote:Plus being able to instantly scan and reconfigure would kind of defeat the idea of "transformers" to begin with as you could easily have one bot look like another and remove what individuality there was.

That's exactly what i'm bitching about. In the Bay Movie, it was portrayed that they can simply change form anytime, at whim. Like Bumblebee did. Like Frenzy did. So why the need to transform?

bumblebee reformated because he got dissed by mekala, and if you think about it, both models are camaros, so bb could have just changed his skin oposed to taking every thing down and puting it all up again

Auto Bot wrote:Bumblebee sure did reformat at the drop of a hat.

And he did that too while cruising sideways on 2 wheels!

Talk about multi-tasking!

(So it's not my assumption )

That's exactly what i'm bitching about. In the Bay Movie, it was portrayed that they can simply change form anytime, at whim. Like Bumblebee did. Like Frenzy did. So why the need to transform?

Alright i'll concede that they probably can change forms at the drop of a hat.

As for why the Autobots didn't scan one of the Raptor's or helicopters flying around ... well that would have seen them take on entirely different looks which requires extensive animating and rendering, not to mention toy development.

Oh i'm sorry, were you looking for a real world scientific answer instead of an answer from a real world accountant?

Burn wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:Bumblebee sure did reformat at the drop of a hat.

And he did that too while cruising sideways on 2 wheels!

Talk about multi-tasking!

(So it's not my assumption )

That's exactly what i'm bitching about. In the Bay Movie, it was portrayed that they can simply change form anytime, at whim. Like Bumblebee did. Like Frenzy did. So why the need to transform?

Alright i'll concede that they probably can change forms at the drop of a hat.

As for why the Autobots didn't scan one of the Raptor's or helicopters flying around ... well that would have seen them take on entirely different looks which requires extensive animating and rendering, not to mention toy development.

Oh i'm sorry, were you looking for a real world scientific answer instead of an answer from a real world accountant?

you theory is pretty good, explains why bb could reformate just like that. he didn't have to change much

Burn wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:Bumblebee sure did reformat at the drop of a hat.

And he did that too while cruising sideways on 2 wheels!

Talk about multi-tasking!

(So it's not my assumption )

That's exactly what i'm bitching about. In the Bay Movie, it was portrayed that they can simply change form anytime, at whim. Like Bumblebee did. Like Frenzy did. So why the need to transform?

Alright i'll concede that they probably can change forms at the drop of a hat.

As for why the Autobots didn't scan one of the Raptor's or helicopters flying around ... well that would have seen them take on entirely different looks which requires extensive animating and rendering, not to mention toy development.

Oh i'm sorry, were you looking for a real world scientific answer instead of an answer from a real world accountant?

Haha That is a very reasonable and realistic answer.

But for me, i would have just remove that ability from the Movie. Make them only able to change once. That is, upon arrival on Earth, while in protoform mode.

Auto Bot wrote:

Burn wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:Bumblebee sure did reformat at the drop of a hat.

And he did that too while cruising sideways on 2 wheels!

Talk about multi-tasking!

(So it's not my assumption )

That's exactly what i'm bitching about. In the Bay Movie, it was portrayed that they can simply change form anytime, at whim. Like Bumblebee did. Like Frenzy did. So why the need to transform?

Alright i'll concede that they probably can change forms at the drop of a hat.

As for why the Autobots didn't scan one of the Raptor's or helicopters flying around ... well that would have seen them take on entirely different looks which requires extensive animating and rendering, not to mention toy development.

Oh i'm sorry, were you looking for a real world scientific answer instead of an answer from a real world accountant?

Haha That is a very reasonable and realistic answer.

But for me, i would have just remove that ability from the Movie. Make them only able to change once. That is, upon arrival on Earth, while in protoform mode.

but if they only were able to do it one time then how would they get off earth if the scaned a car in the first place

autobot commander wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

Burn wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:Bumblebee sure did reformat at the drop of a hat.

And he did that too while cruising sideways on 2 wheels!

Talk about multi-tasking!

(So it's not my assumption )

That's exactly what i'm bitching about. In the Bay Movie, it was portrayed that they can simply change form anytime, at whim. Like Bumblebee did. Like Frenzy did. So why the need to transform?

Alright i'll concede that they probably can change forms at the drop of a hat.

As for why the Autobots didn't scan one of the Raptor's or helicopters flying around ... well that would have seen them take on entirely different looks which requires extensive animating and rendering, not to mention toy development.

Oh i'm sorry, were you looking for a real world scientific answer instead of an answer from a real world accountant?

Haha That is a very reasonable and realistic answer.

But for me, i would have just remove that ability from the Movie. Make them only able to change once. That is, upon arrival on Earth, while in protoform mode.

but if they only were able to do it one time then how would they get off earth if the scaned a car in the first place

Which is exactly why fans aren't allowed to write big blockbuster movies.

autobot commander wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

Burn wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:Bumblebee sure did reformat at the drop of a hat.

And he did that too while cruising sideways on 2 wheels!

Talk about multi-tasking!

(So it's not my assumption )

That's exactly what i'm bitching about. In the Bay Movie, it was portrayed that they can simply change form anytime, at whim. Like Bumblebee did. Like Frenzy did. So why the need to transform?

Alright i'll concede that they probably can change forms at the drop of a hat.

As for why the Autobots didn't scan one of the Raptor's or helicopters flying around ... well that would have seen them take on entirely different looks which requires extensive animating and rendering, not to mention toy development.

Oh i'm sorry, were you looking for a real world scientific answer instead of an answer from a real world accountant?

Haha That is a very reasonable and realistic answer.

But for me, i would have just remove that ability from the Movie. Make them only able to change once. That is, upon arrival on Earth, while in protoform mode.

but if they only were able to do it one time then how would they get off earth if the scaned a car in the first place

But that question works the other way and takes us back to what's already been asked: if they were able to do it more than once, why didn't they do it more than once and get off the planet that way? Or adopt another alt.mode for combat when their cover had been blown?

At present, the only way I can really see it working is if one sets up some rules whereby they can scan new alt.modes but they require either a recharging or vast amounts of energy (Energon - but that wasn't in the film) to do it. That way, they could all get off the planet at some point by scanning flying alt.modes but couldn't have done it in combat / during the film because a) their energy levels weren't at full capacity and b) it takes too long and battle doesn't accomodate one's need for a break.

Truthfully, I'd have simply done away with Bumblebee's change from classic to concept Camaro. With that little transcanning trick included, this aspect of the film doesn't seem to make sense whichever way one looks at it.

Hold on...

This is all going on the assumption that Transformers only travel in Protoform, isn't it?

Could it not be that they did that just for this specific mission? I mean not ALL of their missions would involve stealth and disguise, surely. I think that usually, they'd bring a ship that would drop them off AND pick them up.

This time round, though, they didn't have much time to think about how to leave the planet.

OR not, since even I don't like that idea.

Now this whole "why don't they scan the jets" thing. THAT I think can be explained by the notion that some bots can fly, others can't. It's been said that, sure, they can imitate the look, but the actual internal processes that would get the jet off the ground would be nonexistent.

I REALLY shouldn't do this, but look at Beast Wars. Waspintor and Terrorsaur were able to scan flying alt modes because they had the internals to 'fake' the flying itself.

Let's say they could just scan a flying mode if they wanted. They'd need all the stuff that would allow them to fly already in their systems. So maybe they'd have a jetpack or something similar (Think Movie Screamers thrusters on his back) in order to fly in robot mode. But none of the Autobots (or some Decepticons) have any obvious jetpacks* (and I think theyd use em if they did) so I think, with them, the capability of flying is out of the question.

*But then, Megatron never flew about in robot mode...

So BASICALLY I think they can only scan flying modes if they already have something in their existing system that allows them to fly. And even if they did, they're still restricted by mass.

That's a reasonable explanation. If some Cybertronians have flying capabilities and some don't then that would explain why, in some cases, their choice of alt.mode is restricted to ground-based vehicles.

The only problem I have with this idea is that the film never suggests only certain Transformers have flight capability. Granted, we do only see some of them fly but if memory serves the only ones that we do see fly are the ones with flying alt.modes. Because of that, the logic in there would be that only the ones who scan flying vehicles can fly or that all Transformers can fly but they have to scanned a flying vehicle.

I totally agree with what you're saying; I think that's how it would be within the fictional universe, however I think that the reason people wonder why the non-flying Transformers don't scan a flying alt.mode is because the common denominator between all the Transformers shown in the film to have flight capabilites is simply that those flyers all have flying alt.modes.

autobot commander wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

Burn wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:Bumblebee sure did reformat at the drop of a hat.

And he did that too while cruising sideways on 2 wheels!

Talk about multi-tasking!

(So it's not my assumption )

That's exactly what i'm bitching about. In the Bay Movie, it was portrayed that they can simply change form anytime, at whim. Like Bumblebee did. Like Frenzy did. So why the need to transform?

Alright i'll concede that they probably can change forms at the drop of a hat.

As for why the Autobots didn't scan one of the Raptor's or helicopters flying around ... well that would have seen them take on entirely different looks which requires extensive animating and rendering, not to mention toy development.

Oh i'm sorry, were you looking for a real world scientific answer instead of an answer from a real world accountant?

Haha That is a very reasonable and realistic answer.

But for me, i would have just remove that ability from the Movie. Make them only able to change once. That is, upon arrival on Earth, while in protoform mode.

but if they only were able to do it one time then how would they get off earth if the scaned a car in the first place

That is why Bay should not have killed off the spaceship in the first place. There's so many loopholes if you remove a transport vehicle from another planet.

Leonardo wrote:

autobot commander wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

Burn wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:Bumblebee sure did reformat at the drop of a hat.

And he did that too while cruising sideways on 2 wheels!

Talk about multi-tasking!

(So it's not my assumption )

That's exactly what i'm bitching about. In the Bay Movie, it was portrayed that they can simply change form anytime, at whim. Like Bumblebee did. Like Frenzy did. So why the need to transform?

Alright i'll concede that they probably can change forms at the drop of a hat.

As for why the Autobots didn't scan one of the Raptor's or helicopters flying around ... well that would have seen them take on entirely different looks which requires extensive animating and rendering, not to mention toy development.

Oh i'm sorry, were you looking for a real world scientific answer instead of an answer from a real world accountant?

Haha That is a very reasonable and realistic answer.

But for me, i would have just remove that ability from the Movie. Make them only able to change once. That is, upon arrival on Earth, while in protoform mode.

but if they only were able to do it one time then how would they get off earth if the scaned a car in the first place

But that question works the other way and takes us back to what's already been asked: if they were able to do it more than once, why didn't they do it more than once and get off the planet that way? Or adopt another alt.mode for combat when their cover had been blown?

At present, the only way I can really see it working is if one sets up some rules whereby they can scan new alt.modes but they require either a recharging or vast amounts of energy (Energon - but that wasn't in the film) to do it. That way, they could all get off the planet at some point by scanning flying alt.modes but couldn't have done it in combat / during the film because a) their energy levels weren't at full capacity and b) it takes too long and battle doesn't accomodate one's need for a break.

Truthfully, I'd have simply done away with Bumblebee's change from classic to concept Camaro. With that little transcanning trick included, this aspect of the film doesn't seem to make sense whichever way one looks at it.

It's a shame Bumblebee wasted a vast load of energy, just to impress Mikaela. Tsk tsk.

Meverix wrote:Hold on...

This is all going on the assumption that Transformers only travel in Protoform, isn't it?

Could it not be that they did that just for this specific mission? I mean not ALL of their missions would involve stealth and disguise, surely. I think that usually, they'd bring a ship that would drop them off AND pick them up.

This time round, though, they didn't have much time to think about how to leave the planet.

OR not, since even I don't like that idea.

Now this whole "why don't they scan the jets" thing. THAT I think can be explained by the notion that some bots can fly, others can't. It's been said that, sure, they can imitate the look, but the actual internal processes that would get the jet off the ground would be nonexistent.

I REALLY shouldn't do this, but look at Beast Wars. Waspintor and Terrorsaur were able to scan flying alt modes because they had the internals to 'fake' the flying itself.

Let's say they could just scan a flying mode if they wanted. They'd need all the stuff that would allow them to fly already in their systems. So maybe they'd have a jetpack or something similar (Think Movie Screamers thrusters on his back) in order to fly in robot mode. But none of the Autobots (or some Decepticons) have any obvious jetpacks* (and I think theyd use em if they did) so I think, with them, the capability of flying is out of the question.

*But then, Megatron never flew about in robot mode...

So BASICALLY I think they can only scan flying modes if they already have something in their existing system that allows them to fly. And even if they did, they're still restricted by mass.

Think back to the Nokia bot, if you apply that logic to it, then they would have to build in gatling gun capabilities in order for him to do that at birth.

I would have agreed with you about the mimicking just the shell, but then when bumblebee popped his hood and im sure that was a working engine that was created when he chose that shape, and Im sure he is identical to the original car in every detail, hence why they transform the way they do. Ive stated before that yes they are robots disguised, but they seem more like cars/jets/trucks that turn into robots and not the other way around. I'll say again, they should only look like human vehicles but remain cybertronian, when you pop the hood in should be pure cybertronian.