This is a prototype sample of Optimusprime.鉄機巧 4th project. It is still being revised. #FLAMETOYS #鉄機巧 #TRANSFORMERS #optimusprime
Emerje wrote:So your whole defense for being OK with KOs is that you don't like Disney? Sure...
Fan art and KOs aren't even on the same level. Fan art is drawings, sculptures, digital art, etc. usually done on commission, sometimes small print runs that really don't make any real amount of money, certainly not enough to bother Hasbro or any other companies for that matter. Hasbro did try to block them once at BotCon, but quickly came to their senses. There's actually a legal exception for derivative fan art under fair use laws as long as they aren't an outright reproduction of official art.
KOs are mass produced by companies purely to make money off Hasbro's IP. That's all. No fair use protection here no matter how pretty the figure may be.
Rated X wrote:I seriously dont see why anyone would buy this. For people who want a transformer, theres MP-10. And for the art loving community, theres Statuemus Prime from Imaginiarium. But a posable statue is increibly pointless.
Black Hat wrote:Emerje wrote:So your whole defense for being OK with KOs is that you don't like Disney? Sure...
Congratulations on missing the point entirely. What I'm saying is that were it not for Disney, then Transformers (and for that matter, a great deal of properties) would be in the public domain. Disney literally gets laws made for them so that they will never lose control of characters whose original creator is long, long dead.Fan art and KOs aren't even on the same level. Fan art is drawings, sculptures, digital art, etc. usually done on commission, sometimes small print runs that really don't make any real amount of money, certainly not enough to bother Hasbro or any other companies for that matter. Hasbro did try to block them once at BotCon, but quickly came to their senses. There's actually a legal exception for derivative fan art under fair use laws as long as they aren't an outright reproduction of official art.
See that's just the thing. If you use this comparison, most "KOs" as you call them (despite KOs referring specifically to stolen molds) are entirely original tooling, engineering and design, and thus would be covered by derivative product/fair use protections. Beyond looking like an existing character (and "But it looks like our character!" is about on par with Apple trying to claim ownership over rounded rectangles) they are entirely original products. Now I don't support actual KOs where an existing product is actually duplicated. But 3P stuff IMO is fair game, as it is in effect engineering fanart.. they certainly put more effort into a lot of their stuff than HasTak do.KOs are mass produced by companies purely to make money off Hasbro's IP. That's all. No fair use protection here no matter how pretty the figure may be.
So basically it's got nothing to do with the actual principle of the thing, it's solely because these companies are successful enough to challenge HasTak.
To which I say "Good". That's how competition is supposed to work. If someone else makes a better product than you, and they are as a result more successful, then you have two options. You can either improve your own product or you can appeal to a different market.
Randomhero wrote:Black Hat wrote:Emerje wrote:So your whole defense for being OK with KOs is that you don't like Disney? Sure...
Congratulations on missing the point entirely. What I'm saying is that were it not for Disney, then Transformers (and for that matter, a great deal of properties) would be in the public domain. Disney literally gets laws made for them so that they will never lose control of characters whose original creator is long, long dead.Fan art and KOs aren't even on the same level. Fan art is drawings, sculptures, digital art, etc. usually done on commission, sometimes small print runs that really don't make any real amount of money, certainly not enough to bother Hasbro or any other companies for that matter. Hasbro did try to block them once at BotCon, but quickly came to their senses. There's actually a legal exception for derivative fan art under fair use laws as long as they aren't an outright reproduction of official art.
See that's just the thing. If you use this comparison, most "KOs" as you call them (despite KOs referring specifically to stolen molds) are entirely original tooling, engineering and design, and thus would be covered by derivative product/fair use protections. Beyond looking like an existing character (and "But it looks like our character!" is about on par with Apple trying to claim ownership over rounded rectangles) they are entirely original products. Now I don't support actual KOs where an existing product is actually duplicated. But 3P stuff IMO is fair game, as it is in effect engineering fanart.. they certainly put more effort into a lot of their stuff than HasTak do.KOs are mass produced by companies purely to make money off Hasbro's IP. That's all. No fair use protection here no matter how pretty the figure may be.
So basically it's got nothing to do with the actual principle of the thing, it's solely because these companies are successful enough to challenge HasTak.
To which I say "Good". That's how competition is supposed to work. If someone else makes a better product than you, and they are as a result more successful, then you have two options. You can either improve your own product or you can appeal to a different market.
Nope that’s not even remotely how that works but okay. Pretty sure I’m not gonna change your mind on that nine sense but I will say this. It’s everyones right to own some they created and not your place to think it shouldn’t.
I will say this. I own IP. I created a comic and spent ten years working on it and hearing someone say no one should own anything and it should be a free for all. Yeah....no
Carnivius_Prime wrote:Rated X wrote:I seriously dont see why anyone would buy this. For people who want a transformer, theres MP-10. And for the art loving community, theres Statuemus Prime from Imaginiarium. But a posable statue is increibly pointless.
I don't really like it myself but I don't think a posable non-transforming figure of a Transformers character is all that pointless. There's been times I've really not given a damn about transformation and wish the robot mode was just done as best as possible. Moreso with the complex movie designs that may have parts impossible to reproduce well in toy form but even some G1 characters in my opinion. I've never really cared for Galvatron's cannon mode and would be quite happy to have a non-transforming figure of him that paid full attention to just a good robot mode. The Titans figure fails hard in both of those AND the extra space ship mode it was forced to have just to give the darn Titan Master a cockpit to sit in. But I have the added problem there that I want a grey Galvatron cos my fave version of him is the Marvel UK comics one and most of them only come out in purple...
Black Hat wrote:Emerje wrote:So your whole defense for being OK with KOs is that you don't like Disney? Sure...
Congratulations on missing the point entirely. What I'm saying is that were it not for Disney, then Transformers (and for that matter, a great deal of properties) would be in the public domain. Disney literally gets laws made for them so that they will never lose control of characters whose original creator is long, long dead.
Fan art and KOs aren't even on the same level. Fan art is drawings, sculptures, digital art, etc. usually done on commission, sometimes small print runs that really don't make any real amount of money, certainly not enough to bother Hasbro or any other companies for that matter. Hasbro did try to block them once at BotCon, but quickly came to their senses. There's actually a legal exception for derivative fan art under fair use laws as long as they aren't an outright reproduction of official art.
See that's just the thing. If you use this comparison, most "KOs" as you call them (despite KOs referring specifically to stolen molds) are entirely original tooling, engineering and design, and thus would be covered by derivative product/fair use protections. Beyond looking like an existing character (and "But it looks like our character!" is about on par with Apple trying to claim ownership over rounded rectangles) they are entirely original products. Now I don't support actual KOs where an existing product is actually duplicated. But 3P stuff IMO is fair game, as it is in effect engineering fanart.. they certainly put more effort into a lot of their stuff than HasTak do.
KOs are mass produced by companies purely to make money off Hasbro's IP. That's all. No fair use protection here no matter how pretty the figure may be.
So basically it's got nothing to do with the actual principle of the thing, it's solely because these companies are successful enough to challenge HasTak.
To which I say "Good". That's how competition is supposed to work. If someone else makes a better product than you, and they are as a result more successful, then you have two options. You can either improve your own product or you can appeal to a different market.
Black Hat wrote:Randomhero wrote:I will say this. I own IP. I created a comic and spent ten years working on it and hearing someone say no one should own anything and it should be a free for all. Yeah....no
Not what I said but OK, whatever floats your boat I guess.
Emerje wrote:Black Hat wrote:Emerje wrote:So your whole defense for being OK with KOs is that you don't like Disney? Sure...
Congratulations on missing the point entirely. What I'm saying is that were it not for Disney, then Transformers (and for that matter, a great deal of properties) would be in the public domain. Disney literally gets laws made for them so that they will never lose control of characters whose original creator is long, long dead.
Funny, still sounds like I got the point. But did you? Public domain applies to three things: books, film, and music and only those created before copyright. That's why Disney fights the public domain limits, but that has absolutely no effect on Transformers so your point is moot.
Fan art and KOs aren't even on the same level. Fan art is drawings, sculptures, digital art, etc. usually done on commission, sometimes small print runs that really don't make any real amount of money, certainly not enough to bother Hasbro or any other companies for that matter. Hasbro did try to block them once at BotCon, but quickly came to their senses. There's actually a legal exception for derivative fan art under fair use laws as long as they aren't an outright reproduction of official art.
See that's just the thing. If you use this comparison, most "KOs" as you call them (despite KOs referring specifically to stolen molds) are entirely original tooling, engineering and design, and thus would be covered by derivative product/fair use protections. Beyond looking like an existing character (and "But it looks like our character!" is about on par with Apple trying to claim ownership over rounded rectangles) they are entirely original products. Now I don't support actual KOs where an existing product is actually duplicated. But 3P stuff IMO is fair game, as it is in effect engineering fanart.. they certainly put more effort into a lot of their stuff than HasTak do.
Original products and unique molding don't protect them from using character likenesses. You can't just sell a Mickey Mouse figure (since you like to bring up Disney) and think it's OK because it isn't based on an existing Mickey Mouse figure. And really, I'm not stupid, I know there's a number of modified MP-10s and an army of modified MP-11s, and a huge number of up scales and down scales. It's all the same.
KOs are mass produced by companies purely to make money off Hasbro's IP. That's all. No fair use protection here no matter how pretty the figure may be.
So basically it's got nothing to do with the actual principle of the thing, it's solely because these companies are successful enough to challenge HasTak.
No, it's about the principal and the law.
I have no problem admitting that they make some really cool figures and if they want to make one every few months and sell it on eBay like fans do that would be fine. But once you start mass producing for profit you're no longer doing it as a fan, you're doing it as a company using a stolen IP. Like I said earlier, the only reason Hasbro doesn't go off and sue them all (and they would win) is because it would cost them more money to do it than they lose letting them stay since most of them are hiding out in countries that don't care about copyright and IP laws. That does not make it OK.
To which I say "Good". That's how competition is supposed to work. If someone else makes a better product than you, and they are as a result more successful, then you have two options. You can either improve your own product or you can appeal to a different market.
Yeah, that's how it's supposed to work, but you're supposed to do it using your own ideas, not someone else's.
And who said anything about the KOs being more successful? Making a profit doesn't make them more successful. They can make all the robot figures they want and some of them have made some really nice original characters, but they just don't make enough money so they keep going back to Hasbro's characters.Black Hat wrote:Randomhero wrote:I will say this. I own IP. I created a comic and spent ten years working on it and hearing someone say no one should own anything and it should be a free for all. Yeah....no
Not what I said but OK, whatever floats your boat I guess.
Yeah it is. You're really going to say it's not OK to steal his ideas and characters for a profit against his will, but it's OK to do it to Hasbro?
Emerje
ZeroWolf wrote:I think this is a discussion for a seperate copyright thread where you might be able to express your thoughts better, like what reforms there should be. Bringing it up on the thread of a licenced product isnt the best approach. Saying that if someone does make a thread about thus topic, can they let me know as it's a very interesting subject for me.
Black Hat wrote:No, it's NOT all the same. That's just it. I have nothing but contempt for actual KOs where they just take original molds and sell them as their own. Making an entirely original figure, even one based on an existing character, takes a lot of work.
Except as has already been established, the law is literally being rewritten every few years by one company solely out of greed, and should be treated with the contempt it deserves.
Again. IP laws are absolute nonsense. And you keep coming back to the "Producing for profit" point- If Hasbro's product wasn't so shockingly poor that people felt the need to mass produce upgrades and replacements then maybe the market wouldn't exist.
To which I say "Good". That's how competition is supposed to work. If someone else makes a better product than you, and they are as a result more successful, then you have two options. You can either improve your own product or you can appeal to a different market.
Yeah, that's how it's supposed to work, but you're supposed to do it using your own ideas, not someone else's.
By that logic, nobody else except Mercedes-Benz should be allowed to make cars because they were the first ones to make them.
Black Hat wrote:Randomhero wrote:I will say this. I own IP. I created a comic and spent ten years working on it and hearing someone say no one should own anything and it should be a free for all. Yeah....no
Not what I said but OK, whatever floats your boat I guess.
Yeah it is. You're really going to say it's not OK to steal his ideas and characters for a profit against his will, but it's OK to do it to Hasbro?
Emerje
For one, he's a small-time artist with limited funds, compare that to a juggernaut like Hasbro with enough money to probably finance a small private army at this point. They are absolutely not comparable. For another, he actually created his IP. Modern Hasbro didn't, they inherited it from the actual creators (people like Floro Dery, Bob Budiansky etc).
TLDR: The law is fundamentally broken and should not be followed or respected in any way, and Hasbro are incompetent at best and do not deserve to have exclusive control of the IP.
What's your obsession with defending Hasbro against those eeeeeevil "IP thieves" anyway? Are you on their payroll, "Correct the Record" style? Do you just not want us to have decent toys?
Rated X wrote:Im gonna play devils advocate here. I agree with Black Hats Disney arguement. If it aplies to "film" then what makes Sunbow cartoons any different than Mickey cartoons other than 50 years ? Disney set the precedent for Hasbro to whine and b**ch. An original mold that uses the likeness of a Sunbow character is just as much "film" as any use of a disney character because mickey mouse and friends started off with short cartoons.
It just so happened that those short cartoons were shown on the big screen because TVs hadnt been invented yet. So its all the same s**t but different time eras. Its not another companies fault if Hasbro doesnt get the character right or doesnt make an attempt to make the character in toy form at all. Thats Hasbros loss. I say use it or lose it. I dont see Hasbro doing anything with DJD so why not let MMC take a stab at it?
Hasbro can always make MMC an offer to buy the license. After the fact shouldnt make any difference.
Im sure Flame Toys wouldnt be doing a licensed non-transformable Tarn if MMC hadnt broke the boundary and gave the character so much exposure. If anything, flame toys is eating off MMCs plate.
Now on to actual KOs (identical copies of an existing mold) KOs dont cost Hasbro much money because they are mostly bought by people who had no plans of buying the original at the original price to begin with. You cant compare a KO Megatron to a KO radiator for a Camaro that is an actual necessity to continue using the vehicle. But you dont need the megatron to stay alive and keep breathing. I just bought the KO megatron on impulse because I liked the price. I bought KO radiator out of necessity and benefited from the price. See the difference? Thats why Chevy actually looses money from KOs and Hasbro really doesnt loose money at all. For every guy willing to wait for the inevitable KO a year later, theres 100 guys who gotta have it the moment it comes out at full price. Impulse buys are not the same as necessities. So Hasbro looses no money because I chose to buy something that I wouldnt normally buy at regular price to begin with.
Also on a side note, I think we are not really going off topic here. Flame Toys is basically a 3rd party company that got down on its knees and did you know what to obtain a license from Hasbro. Thats the only reason they are offical.
So MMC didnt stoop to that level with their Tarn like Flame Toys did with theirs...who cares? MMC kept their dignity. They didnt sign off 50% or more of their profits to Hasbro who collects a check for sitting on their ass and doing absolutely nothing.
The animators who drew the Sunbow cartoons are not on Hasbros payroll anymore. Artwork shouldnt be passed down through corporate hands for generations. Thats ludacris.
So yes when the topic is "Flame Toys" all aspects of the IP theft debate should be on the table. One of these days one of these 3rd party companies is going to strike a deal with Hasbro and make this site eat its words. I would laugh my ass off if this site is ever forced to front page a former 3rd party product because Hasbro buys them out of business and obtains the molds. It would be so ironic.
ZeroWolf wrote:Yeah that example of Hasbro buying out a 3p isn't the best as it would not longer be a third party anyway...plus I sense an annoyance that this site only cares about official products.
Emerje wrote:TLDR: The law is fundamentally broken and should not be followed or respected in any way, and Hasbro are incompetent at best and do not deserve to have exclusive control of the IP.
Only thing I took from any of this is that you're fine with companies breaking the law as long as it gets you nice things. The law isn't broken in the slightest and the only thing Hasbro doesn't deserve is to have their IP abused.
What's your obsession with defending Hasbro against those eeeeeevil "IP thieves" anyway? Are you on their payroll, "Correct the Record" style? Do you just not want us to have decent toys?
What's wrong with having a firm sense of right and wrong?
Emerje wrote:ZeroWolf wrote:Yeah that example of Hasbro buying out a 3p isn't the best as it would not longer be a third party anyway...plus I sense an annoyance that this site only cares about official products.
No, it would be a real third party under the definition that they're a company that makes a figure under license independent from Hasbro.
Emerje
william-james88 wrote:https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/faqs/copyright-basics/
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