The Energon Pub

El Duque wrote:
A lot of people (not just you) bring up this issue of third-party companies not having to comply with safety standards, but no one ever points out what these third-parties are doing to that is outside of them. As I said before I own the FansProject Crossfire sets, MakeToys Giant, TFC Toys Hercules, and FOC: Bruticus. I'm not seeing anything on the third-party figures that would keep them from being produced by Hasbro/Takara.

Plastic quality? Hasbro could pump their type plastic into these molds. (although recently I would say third-party plastic is trumping Hasbro's) Sharp corners? Hasbro could round them off. Small parts? Hasbro figures come with small parts also. Drop test? I'm not going to drop my Hercules to find out, but can't image he would fare any worse than say Unicron. Overly complex design? Ever transformered a ROTF figure?

Not trying to pick on you. I've just never heard anyone establish just what these safety concerns are.

Yes, 3rd party stuff don't intentionally come with the tiniest pieces around to choke you. The trend with 3rd party stuff is that they are doing obscure toys, or toys that are "out of fashion". Take for example Hercules. Yeah sure, they look cool and all, but hasbro still has to market they line to kids, and now, all they want is TFP, or whatever the latest show/movie is. Then again with the scale issue of Hercules... Even my parents question the significance of a toy when I buy it, and I'm sure parents would ask the kid what this character is and stuff. I've seen many parents at malls choosing the figures based on their roles in DOTM.


Maybe a better example is FP's insectecons. They are deluxed sized. They COULD have fit into the Generations lines, since they are classics, but hasbro knows they wont sell. Especially since they transform into insects, and huge robotic insects aren't all the rage today. Heck, even Thunderwing who's plane mode looked abit off and less realistic, became a shelfwarmer.

For FOC bruticus, I'm sure they went this route to cut production costs with less plastic. It also seems like the Bruitcus mode suffers from a useless gimmick. Scramble City. They don't look particularly good in all sorts of combinations, so hasbro should really have just found 1 way for them to combine, and made it that way. As of now, all limbs have fists in them, and can swap between left/right just to accommodate the failed scramble city idea.

I wonder what time of time constraints hasbro engineers are under. it seems a lot of 3rd party stuff just gets pushed back as needed if they are having problems, I wouldn't think Hasbro could get away with that very often.

Makes me glad I never picked him up....

Hey guys! At least those Kreon combiners are going to be awesome, right? RIGHT?

orangeitis wrote:

El Duque wrote:Drop test - Hercules is no bigger than Unicron, and as I said earlier, I feel he would probably fare better. He might pop apart into his component parts, but if anything that would probably decrease his likelihood of actually breaking into harmful pieces. Same would go for Giant.

Separating into the individual components would be the problem. A stability malfunction resulting in Hercules drop off a shelf and hitting the floor with Not-Scrapper pop off headed straight toward a 10-year-old's face wouldn't be too pretty. As for Unicron, it don't break too easily, and parts that do pop off(particularly the alt mode shell halves) don't have enough girth to cause too much damage.

I like how there are so many drop test experts in the field of collectors. Sorry dude, but this makes no sense. Why is Herc's leg detaching any more dangerous than any other large figure falling on a child? I'll give you that Hasbro has to adhere to higher safety standards than 3rd Parties, but none of us know just how much different any given 3P design would have to be in order to be released at retail. But if we're speculating, my money is not very different. I would wager Herc would require little from a design standpoint to meet safety laws. There may be a few relatively minor details that would need to be modded and maybe the joints might have to be a little more stable (definitely not a bad thing to improve anyhow)...although it doesn't sound like Bruticus is any more stable in combined form (haven't opened mine yet.) Anyhow, yes, your point that Hasbro has to meet stricter safety laws than 3Ps is fact, but just how much different that requires any design to be or that being the reason for any of Bruticus' faults is speculative opinion. Safety concerns didn't make Onslaught a deluxe or give whichever dude has it the karate chop hand or make Vortex a crappy design for an arm.

And while we're at it, since BBTS charges $200 for SDCC Bruticus, I guess we should start holding it to $200 toy standards rather than a $60 toy...no?

gavinfuzzy wrote:
Maybe a better example is FP's insectecons. They are deluxed sized. They COULD have fit into the Generations lines, since they are classics, but hasbro knows they wont sell. Especially since they transform into insects, and huge robotic insects aren't all the rage today. Heck, even Thunderwing who's plane mode looked abit off and less realistic, became a shelfwarmer.

Relly? Kids don't like insects? Last time I checked, insects and dinosaurs are fairly popular in the cheap stuff section. Boys are boys at the end of the day and so if you follow the 80's logic and combine dinosaurs and bugs with robots (Dinobots and Insecticons) you have a guranteed seller.

Thunderwing never warmed shelves out here either. One moment he was in stock and the next, he was gone.

Kibble wrote:I like how there are so many drop test experts in the field of collectors.

I'm not an expert on the subject, nor have I even claimed to be.

Kibble wrote:Sorry dude, but this makes no sense. Why is Herc's leg detaching any more dangerous than any other large figure falling on a child?

I didn't say it is. But the force of the limb landing on the floor first, with all the pressure of the rest of the figure falling on top of it, the limb would be tossed away at a decent speed.

Kibble wrote:Anyhow, yes, your point that Hasbro has to meet stricter safety laws than 3Ps is fact, but just how much different that requires any design to be or that being the reason for any of Bruticus' faults is speculative opinion.

You raise a good point here.

Kibble wrote:And while we're at it, since BBTS charges $200 for SDCC Bruticus, I guess we should start holding it to $200 toy standards rather than a $60 toy...no?

It's an SDCC toy. Not a retail version. That's like wanting to hold 2007 Shattered Glass Oprimus Prime to $700 standards, because that's around how much it's being sold for now(last time I checked, at least)

orangeitis wrote:I didn't say it is. But the force of the limb landing on the floor first, with all the pressure of the rest of the figure falling on top of it, the limb would be tossed away at a decent speed.

I'm not a drop test expert either, but I don't think that has anything to do with it.

orangeitis wrote:It's an SDCC toy. Not a retail version. That's like wanting to hold 2007 Shattered Glass Oprimus Prime to $700 standards, because that's around how much it's being sold for now(last time I checked, at least)

Okay, but you can get Hercules for like $300 in shops over in China so from now on we'll just consider him a $300 toy then. Or six $50 toys which is about the same price as a voyager United figure.

I'm appalled that with the simplicity of the G1 Combiners and the fun and creativity of the RID/Armada/Energon combiners, that at the 28 year mark of the Transformers franchise, we are getting shameful piles of sewage like this, and four member Kre-o jokes. 3 years ago we got a Supreme class toy with individual components that didn't have robot modes. A few years ago it was Scout class toys with individual components that were drones. I get it. We're just getting worse. Hasbro can't do combiners anymore.

Blurrz wrote:I'm appalled that with the simplicity of the G1 Combiners and the fun and creativity of the RID/Armada/Energon combiners, that at the 28 year mark of the Transformers franchise, we are getting shameful piles of sewage like this, and four member Kre-o jokes. 3 years ago we got a Supreme class toy with individual components that didn't have robot modes. A few years ago it was Scout class toys with individual components that were drones. I get it. We're just getting worse. Hasbro can't do combiners anymore.

Just putting it out there, the RiD/Armada/Energon combiners were Takara-made.

Edit: And the G1 cominers as well. Oh, and wasn't the Beast Wars line made by Kenner or a company other than Hasbro? I think Hasbro's first combiner was RoTF Devvy...

orangeitis wrote:

Blurrz wrote:I'm appalled that with the simplicity of the G1 Combiners and the fun and creativity of the RID/Armada/Energon combiners, that at the 28 year mark of the Transformers franchise, we are getting shameful piles of sewage like this, and four member Kre-o jokes. 3 years ago we got a Supreme class toy with individual components that didn't have robot modes. A few years ago it was Scout class toys with individual components that were drones. I get it. We're just getting worse. Hasbro can't do combiners anymore.

Just putting it out there, the RiD/Armada/Energon combiners were Takara-made.

Edit: And the G1 cominers as well. Oh, and wasn't the Beast Wars line made by Kenner or a company other than Hasbro? I think Hasbro's first combiner was RoTF Devvy...

Hasbro and Takara works on these things together. It's a joint venture.

Beast Wars was Hasbro and Takara. Hasbro bought Kenner in the early to mid 90s.

Takara is who, according to Hasbro at BotCon 2012, came up with this new connector system which Hasbro seemed to rave about at the time for all of the work Takara put into this new system. Just doesn't seem like anyone actually tried playing with this toy, or if they did, they just rushed it out.

Want a decent combiner for this year?

Kabaya. Might have no articulation but they at least go together and stay together.

orangeitis wrote:Just putting it out there, the RiD/Armada/Energon combiners were Takara-made.

If that were even factual, it still doesn't change anything. FoC Bruticus is still a pile of garbage and we've deviated from better days.

I think I can let the wrecker re-deco pass though, as its an all new character with no concept art and in game model to rely on. thats the same reason Swerve, and Darksteel work as seperate characters as apposed to say, Sidearm Sideswipe. They may be repainted from an in-accurate mold, but since it's a new character, it doesnt matter. thats just my stance on this whole debate. Bruticus might not work, but Ruination is a blessing in disguise.

Full disclosure: I don't own this thing.

That said, those of you that know me know that I'm a rabid completionist for US releases and tend to jump on everything under the sun regardless of 1)quality, real or perceived or 2)actual interest besides just wanting to "Finish the line". Bruticus was in my cart the day these things launched on HTS, but I stopped, clicked back, chose to be left out of the party and still haven't even bid on one on the eBay. While this had a lot to do with staring down a credit card charge instead of using actual money, I just don't feel any urgency to get this toy, and I cannot honestly remember the last time I've felt that way towards an official US Transformers release. It may have been Robot Replicas, and those don't count and you know it.

I'll get the G2 and the retail releases when I can, but there is absolutely 0 reason for me to buy this turd at double the original asking price. Even at that the others will stay uncombined, because otherwise they'd have to go on the PCC shelf where they don't belong.

Although, full disclosure again, I will get one to keep in the box eventually - but only once the price goes down a bit in the aftermarket.

tl,dr: I backed off on paying $100 for this crap and don't want to pay aftermarket either, despite my normal complete disregard of such factors.

Blurrz wrote:

orangeitis wrote:Just putting it out there, the RiD/Armada/Energon combiners were Takara-made.

If that were even factual, it still doesn't change anything. FoC Bruticus is still a pile of garbage and we've deviated from better days.

That statement, while relevant to the topic, don't have anything to do with what I said just then. What do you want me to say? You have your opinion, good for you?

I'm confused.

orangeitis wrote:

Blurrz wrote:

orangeitis wrote:Just putting it out there, the RiD/Armada/Energon combiners were Takara-made.

If that were even factual, it still doesn't change anything. FoC Bruticus is still a pile of garbage and we've deviated from better days.

That statement, while relevant to the topic, don't have anything to do with what I said just then. What do you want me to say? You have your opinion, good for you?

I'm confused.

I think he meant only the RiD ones were Takara all the way, stemming from Transformers: Car Robota in 2000. The rest were all Hasbro and Takara together.

And combiners will always be a miss if you only look for the bad points and never the good ones, in this case skewed proportions. In my opinion, they're getting really close to getting it again with the integrated hands in all limbs.

Maybe we've been spoiled with 3rd Party Items with less restrictions in size and budget?

orangeitis wrote:

Blurrz wrote:

orangeitis wrote:Just putting it out there, the RiD/Armada/Energon combiners were Takara-made.

If that were even factual, it still doesn't change anything. FoC Bruticus is still a pile of garbage and we've deviated from better days.

That statement, while relevant to the topic, don't have anything to do with what I said just then. What do you want me to say? You have your opinion, good for you?

I'm confused.

I already addressed your comment above, orangeitis. Your statements about what's going on behind the scenes is inaccurate.

Blurrz was just commenting on his opinion about FOC Bruticus and was basically saying that your comment was irrelevant to the topic at hand.

orangeitis wrote:

Blurrz wrote:I'm appalled that with the simplicity of the G1 Combiners and the fun and creativity of the RID/Armada/Energon combiners, that at the 28 year mark of the Transformers franchise, we are getting shameful piles of sewage like this, and four member Kre-o jokes. 3 years ago we got a Supreme class toy with individual components that didn't have robot modes. A few years ago it was Scout class toys with individual components that were drones. I get it. We're just getting worse. Hasbro can't do combiners anymore.

Just putting it out there, the RiD/Armada/Energon combiners were Takara-made.

Edit: And the G1 cominers as well. Oh, and wasn't the Beast Wars line made by Kenner or a company other than Hasbro? I think Hasbro's first combiner was RoTF Devvy...

No, Hasbro designs this sh*t and Takara turns the sh*t into plastic, even FOC Bruticus.
The first and so far only Combiner that is 100% Hasbro is the stupid Energon Dinobot combiner. Everything else (save for early G1 and RID) is a joint effort between Hasbro and Takara.

Beast Wars was made by Hasbro and Takara, Kenner didn't exist at the time anymore, they where bought by Hasbro who used the name to sell action figures and get their hands on the Star Wars and Batman stuff.

Also to those who bought this and now complain, it's your own fault. I mean you saw the pictures right? Or did you see different pictures than the ones I saw? I mean you did see the horrible disproportionate mess of crap held together by sheer will force and photo magic right?

Seriously, even the fugly Beast Wars combiners look better than this, at least those where meant to look disgusting and weird.

You know what else blows this piece of crap out of the water, rapes it and calls it names? ROTF Legends Class Devastator, yes that hunchbacked piece of ugly sh*t is a better combiner than this, it does everything this thing does, costs less and actually looks like the thing it's supposed to represent and it's not even half as large or expensive. FOC Bruticus is a fantastically simple design, yet they managed to completely f*ck t up in toy form.

gavinfuzzy wrote:Yes, 3rd party stuff don't intentionally come with the tiniest pieces around to choke you. The trend with 3rd party stuff is that they are doing obscure toys, or toys that are "out of fashion". Take for example Hercules. Yeah sure, they look cool and all, but hasbro still has to market they line to kids, and now, all they want is TFP, or whatever the latest show/movie is. Then again with the scale issue of Hercules... Even my parents question the significance of a toy when I buy it, and I'm sure parents would ask the kid what this character is and stuff. I've seen many parents at malls choosing the figures based on their roles in DOTM.

This argument makes no sense what so ever.
This is Fall of Cybertron/ Prime Bruticus, he's supported by a game and sh*tty books.
The argument and comparison to 3rd Party combiners isn't made concerning the character or design choice, it's brought up in the vain "Look, these guys manage to pull this off in an awesome way, why can't the professionals who keep saying that they can't rust others to make good Transforming figures do something that's on par with that?"
This was Hasbro's chance to show us how awesome they are and that they can still do it, and all they managed to do is show us how little a f**k they give because we're stupid and buy it anyway no matter how sh*tty it is because of it's name.

We've proven we're "Hasbro Zombies".

Dead Metal wrote:Also to those who bought this and now complain, it's your own fault. I mean you saw the pictures right? Or did you see different pictures than the ones I saw? I mean you did see the horrible disproportionate mess of crap held together by sheer will force and photo magic right?

While I agree with most of what you said above, I don't think what you said above is fair. No pictures can show how fragile the connector points are nor that the figure can't be posed in any action poses because it's upper legs can't support the upper body's weight unless it's pegged in (which prevents action poses). There's also the hope that fans can figure out how to transform a toy properly, which often resolves a lot of problems from how we see a product initially. There's a lot to be said for having a product in hand and complaining about it, than looking at pictures and complaining about it.

FOC Optimus is an example of this ... didn't like the toy until I had it out of the package and in front of me while photographing it. Only then, did I decide that I liked the toy, even though I dislike the chest design. Sometimes having a toy in hand versus looking at pictures of a toy or seeing it in person but being unable to handle it (i.e. Toy Fair, BotCon, SDCC) can make all of the difference in the world.

Seibertron wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:Also to those who bought this and now complain, it's your own fault. I mean you saw the pictures right? Or did you see different pictures than the ones I saw? I mean you did see the horrible disproportionate mess of crap held together by sheer will force and photo magic right?

While I agree with most of what you said above, I don't think what you said above is fair. No pictures can show how fragile the connector points are nor that the figure can't be posed in any action poses because it's upper legs can't support the upper body's weight unless it's pegged in (which prevents action poses). There's also the hope that fans can figure out how to transform a toy properly, which often resolves a lot of problems from how we see a product initially. There's a lot to be said for having a product in hand and complaining about it, than looking at pictures and complaining about it.

FOC Optimus is an example of this ... didn't like the toy until I had it out of the package and in front of me while photographing it. Only then, did I decide that I liked the toy, even though I dislike the chest design. Sometimes having a toy in hand versus looking at pictures of a toy or seeing it in person but being unable to handle it (i.e. Toy Fair, BotCon, SDCC) can make all of the difference in the world.

Thing is, we can usually tell if it's better than the pictures tell us, case in point Universe 2.0 Classics Sideswipe.
We also get a better look at them at conventions like toy fair where we can actually see for ourselves that they are better than in the photos, with Bruticus, he was consistently sh*t.

We're in this hobby for so long and have seen so much that we should be able to tell from pictures what to expect.

Quite a firestorm I started here

Dead Metal wrote:Thing is, we can usually tell if it's better than the pictures tell us, case in point Universe 2.0 Classics Sideswipe.
We also get a better look at them at conventions like toy fair where we can actually see for ourselves that they are better than in the photos, with Bruticus, he was consistently sh*t.

We're in this hobby for so long and have seen so much that we should be able to tell from pictures what to expect.

You missed my point. No pictures would tell us if the connector points are fragile or if the upper legs couldn't support action poses. Those issues have just exacerbated the other issues.

I've been seeing this thing in person since February ... I was one of the first people outside of Hasbro and Takara to get to see this first hand at Toy Fair, and yet I still had hope that it would be better in hand. Like you pointed out, I've been in this hobby for so long that I know generally once I get a toy in my hands that I like it better and I also know that pictures don't tell the full story.

El Duque wrote:Quite a firestorm I started here

Get ready for the firestorm to get bigger. Their galleries will be up in 10 minutes.

El Duque wrote:Quite a firestorm I started here

At least it's not one of the firestorms my oblivious ass started accidentally.

I'll leave this thread before I get swept up in this one as well.