The Energon Pub

lol.. nice logic.

So if I "observed" you were stupid, I wouldn't be insulting you, because I observed you being stupid or saying stupid things?

I'd really like to see these knock off companies make more of the later G1 robots like Grandus.

bookofjunon wrote:

Sid Burn wrote:At this point, Hasbro really needs to step in and take care of this legally.

They have no legal rights in China, they don't have Copywrite laws there.

Thats all well and good but I am sure that Hasbro and Takaras legal teams could still make a case since China is one of the places official transformers are distributed to.

Your give up and deal with it opinion isnt popular, and it isnt because you are being a dick about it. It is because most collectors dont want knock offs of the real thing.

Sid, you wanna wind your neck in a little there? You may or may not agree with bookofjunon, KOs, or anything else, but you don't speak for anyone but yourself.

Thankfully, I just completed my original Metroplex. These "KO's" are getting out of hand.

I'd consider them reissues as well. *shrugs*

However, these are not Knock Offs. These are Bootlegs.

Knock Offs are like the no name dinosaur and insect sets you find at Big Lots. Or the G1 Dinobots with wings and horns added. You know it's intended to be like a TF, but it really isn't one.

These are basically 1:1 copies which makes them a Bootleg.

It's a fine line between the two, but they are different.

I know, I know...we've covered this before.

"KO's needs to be stopped...no matter the cost!"

Sid Burn wrote:

bookofjunon wrote:

Sid Burn wrote:At this point, Hasbro really needs to step in and take care of this legally.

They have no legal rights in China, they don't have Copywrite laws there.

Thats all well and good but I am sure that Hasbro and Takaras legal teams could still make a case since China is one of the places official transformers are distributed to.

Your give up and deal with it opinion isnt popular, and it isnt because you are being a dick about it. It is because most collectors dont want knock offs of the real thing.

Where does my statement even remotely come off as sounding like a dick? Seriously dude, keep the insults to yourself.

Briggs wrote:lol.. nice logic.

So if I "observed" you were stupid, I wouldn't be insulting you, because I observed you being stupid or saying stupid things?

Oh come on, nothing I said was insulting, calm down you're really stretchin here.

Hope this thread doesn't get locked. Can't we all just get along?

Sid Burn wrote:

bookofjunon wrote:

Sid Burn wrote:At this point, Hasbro really needs to step in and take care of this legally.

They have no legal rights in China, they don't have Copywrite laws there.

Thats all well and good but I am sure that Hasbro and Takaras legal teams could still make a case since China is one of the places official transformers are distributed to.

Your give up and deal with it opinion isnt popular, and it isnt because you are being a dick about it. It is because most collectors dont want knock offs of the real thing.

Hasbro will not do anything, what are they gonna do, send a legal team to China? The Chinese governement doesn't care about it, and the US government would frown on it for many reasons.
1. Hasbro isn't gonna move out of cheap labor, distribution channels in China because of KO's.
2. Pissing off China and may turn them away from Hasbro for production if they have other offers, raising Hasbros costs as well as having to figure out new areas/cultures to do business with.
3. China doesn't care. Their goverment encourages it even. They copy everything there. What is hasbro gonna do against the Chinese government. Their legal team would be lucky to get into the country.
4. The US government doesn't care. Think the US would support Hasbro trying to stick it to a KO company in China over a few toys? Maybe if they were copying, shipping, and shelfing all these toys next to the real things at Walmart and Target (which wouldn't happen because these stores respect copyrights/trademarks). Additionally, the U.S. Government isn't gonna support any action in a country that is the largest trade partner and debt holder over a couple toys.

There are many other reasons, but feel free to keep venting, Transformers folk seem to think that the Walmart employees, KO companies, ebay folk, and hasbro have all conspired to screw them over.

Sid Burn wrote:

bookofjunon wrote:I already ordered mine.

These KO's are no different than Hasbro reissuing the originals. Metroplex is a hard to find MISB figure.

Who cares???

I am glad these companies are reissue these figures. And that's really what they are, reissues, not KO's.

This is also dangerous, not only is hasbro not doing anything, but I have seen opinions sliding on whether or not it matters if the bot is legit or not.

This is going to get very slippery for Hastak when their Encore lines stop selling because KO companies are doing it faster, cheaper and with no loss of quality to the average eye.

Cheaper!?
I've got Encore Meister preordered for about $35. What did Mirage cost, $70?
If TakaTomy and Hasbro would just step up and start reissuing these figures, there would be a much smaller market for the KO's. Who wouldn't prefer an official release to a KO?

woot! More KO garbage to sort through.

accessories i dont mind...bots i want the real deal.

odd isnt it

Autobot032 wrote:However, these are not Knock Offs. These are Bootlegs.

Knock offs or bootlegs ... whatever you want to call them they're still illegal (outside of China anyway) productions produced with the intent to fool the collector into paying out money for over priced, often shoddy products.

MagnusPrimal wrote:If TakaTomy and Hasbro would just step up and start reissuing these figures, there would be a much smaller market for the KO's

People are aware that the reason legit versions aren't produced is (and until someone proves me wrong this seems to be the explanation) because the molds were left in the factories, and those factories have now been sold to the KO companies who are now utilising these molds?

So someone please enlighten me as to how TT/Hasbro can produce something they no longer have the molds for without the added cost of reverse engineering.

Burn wrote:People are aware that the reason legit versions aren't produced is (and until someone proves me wrong this seems to be the explanation) because the molds were left in the factories, and those factories have now been sold to the KO companies who are now utilising these molds?

So someone please enlighten me as to how TT/Hasbro can produce something they no longer have the molds for without the added cost of reverse engineering.

(I appologise in advance if I spelled mold and other stuff wrong, I am a little buzzed/tired/etc. and don't want to spellcheck)Other than these versions coming out of China, I don't know if we have the proof that these molds were left there, but it does seem likely that they were.

However, with all this talk of KOs and the molds, it got me thinking, someone originally made the molds and turned a profit out of them. With the popularity of the movie/transformers now, you would think that Hasbro/Takara would be able to reproduce some of these molds and reissue them and be able to sell enough to turn a profit. Maybe there is a concern that because they arnt tied to a current movie/cartoon that they may not sell. I would hope that they have run some numbers on this. If I remember correctly, the TRU Commem were pretty big shelf warmers (wasnt really into Transformers again then but think I remember seeing them at reduced prices), and this may have turned them away from pushing to make new molds that were damaged/lost/etc. I really think that the TRU ones would sell pretty well if they were released today, and I don't think most of us would mind if they were wide releases like the movie, but I have talked more than I probably need to. Someone start a petition.

The cost to produce a brand new model isn't cheap.

And IF they were to spend that sort of money to develop new G1 molds, they would be released to a market where G1 figures would have to compete with their current line.

Yes, they could abandon the line of the day in favour of G1 again, but G1 toys wouldn't appeal to kids of today. The G1 figures would have to be aimed at the collector market, and contrary to what people believe, it isn't as big as they think.

Yea, the market size is what I figure may be the problem. Without a shot to get the kids hooked, it would be tough to ram those toys down their throats, as cool as they were for us to have. But man would I love official reissues of some of these figures. Why were all the figures I loved as a kid part of these "Lost" molds.

Barrelass wrote:Additionally, the U.S. Government isn't gonna support any action in a country that is the largest trade partner and debt holder over a couple toys.

Not to nitpick, but Canada is your largest trading partner, not China.

Sledge wrote:Sid, you wanna wind your neck in a little there? You may or may not agree with bookofjunon, KOs, or anything else, but you don't speak for anyone but yourself.

Maybe you should read the entire thread, many members arent happy about the rampant KO scene and the growing difficulty navigating the vintage collectors market.

I am not looking to speak for anyone, just citing what I see.

MagnusPrimal wrote:

Sid Burn wrote:

bookofjunon wrote:I already ordered mine.

These KO's are no different than Hasbro reissuing the originals. Metroplex is a hard to find MISB figure.

Who cares???

I am glad these companies are reissue these figures. And that's really what they are, reissues, not KO's.

This is also dangerous, not only is hasbro not doing anything, but I have seen opinions sliding on whether or not it matters if the bot is legit or not.

This is going to get very slippery for Hastak when their Encore lines stop selling because KO companies are doing it faster, cheaper and with no loss of quality to the average eye.

Cheaper!?
I've got Encore Meister preordered for about $35. What did Mirage cost, $70?
If TakaTomy and Hasbro would just step up and start reissuing these figures, there would be a much smaller market for the KO's. Who wouldn't prefer an official release to a KO?

Agreed, that would be the easiest way to stomp the KO market is to do more official reissues. Clearly these KO companies are making a profit so there IS a market for all these molds.

Why would hasbro be so scared to knock on China's door? They are fully responsible for the toy recalls that kicked the entire toy industry in the gut sales wise. There isnt much more to lose over there.

I understand that China is like the wild west copyright wise but alot of these molds are being distributed outside of china where there are laws in place to protect intellectual properties.

There has to be a way to reduce this phenomenon, because like I said earlier, 5-10 years from now, only the most diligent G1 collector will be able to spot legit bots amongst the bootlegs.

These KO's will come down in price, and they are going to continue looking more and more attractive to collectors.

If it's of good quality and an exact replica of the original, I'm all for it. But no silly alternate colors, please!

I’ve been watching this forum for some time and decided to chime in on this one.


I normally collect GI Joes but lately I’ve gotten back into TF toys. Fro some time now I’ve wanted an in-box G1 Optimus but have been putting it off. I’ve looked at AFA graded Primes and other but the staggeringly high price tag made me pass.

Along comes these KO TF toys and I decide to pick up a KO prime in US G1 packaging.

You know what? I couldn’t be happier.

This thing looks 100% legit. Sure, I’m sure that if I had an original G1 Prime that I would be able to pick the KO apart but for my display, it fits perfectly and only ran me some $60. I know, I can get a Takara reissue for that much but the box is ugly as sin and the crummy tie straps holding the toy in place do not display well.


The point is that these are great for people who want the flavor of what they had as a child without having to shell out $1000’s of dollars to get it. Can you guys really blame people for wanting these? After collecting Joes for years I’ve always found it absurd what TF toys go for. It’s hard to find a mint G1 prime lose for less than $50. A complete, believable G1 Prime in box for $60 is not bad at all.

If you’re worried about this ruining the collector’s market…it won’t. Just understand that if it’s too good to be true, it probably is. In the end it will make stuff like AFA grading imperative of buying MISB G1 TF toys.

bookofjunon wrote:

Barrelass wrote:Additionally, the U.S. Government isn't gonna support any action in a country that is the largest trade partner and debt holder over a couple toys.

Not to nitpick, but Canada is your largest trading partner, not China.

Damn, I knew that too, my appologies to Canada. Thanks for the correction.

smokehouse wrote:It’s hard to find a mint G1 prime lose for less than $50. A complete, believable G1 Prime in box for $60 is not bad at all.

Actaully I found a near complete one on E-Bay for $25AU. Had all the other parts to finish him off so in the end he would have cost me about $20US. Sure the box is a bit tattered but I know he's the real thing.

Before the movie came out it was easy to find a price like that. Once the movie hit I couldn't believe the prices he was going for. Hell, I had a Prime that I had restored myself. I had repainted him and everything so it wasn't the original paint job, the colour was slightly off, one of the fists was broken, he had no trailer so he only had his fists and gun.

Damn thing sold for $50AU. I saw a Prime with a broken trailer sell for nearly $200AU.

Yes, these KO's do offer a cheaper alternative, but as i've said numerous times, these are produced by companies who are looking to exploit collectors. Yes yes yes, that's what businesses do, but these guys are doing it through illegally produced products. To me, buying them is a slap in the fact to TakaraTomy and Hasbro who, despite all their misgivings, have given me 20+ years of entertainment.

And I would rather support them over a bunch of con artists.
(Again, my personal opinion, not meant to insult anyone)

Burn wrote:Yes, these KO's do offer a cheaper alternative, but as i've said numerous times, these are produced by companies who are looking to exploit collectors. Yes yes yes, that's what businesses do, but these guys are doing it through illegally produced products. To me, buying them is a slap in the fact to TakaraTomy and Hasbro who, despite all their misgivings, have given me 20+ years of entertainment.

And I would rather support them over a bunch of con artists.
(Again, my personal opinion, not meant to insult anyone)

QFT!

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