Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

GotBot wrote:I see, so rather than actually rework their offering into some thing good, and/or lower the price to something reasonable, they decide to put the screws to the little guy who was doing a better job than them, and bully customers. News flash, many of us interested in Zeta had absolutely no intention of letting ourselves be ripped off by the lazy lord of hunchbacks anyway. As I see it, the 2 offerings are largely serving 2 very different types of collectors anyway. All this shows me is how deep the Hasbro greed goes and how pathetically desperate they are. If any shred of me had any inclination to crowd fund a billion dollar multinational company before, it sure as **** is evaporated now.

It's a Hasbro IP, this argument is utterly backwards. Another company STOLE their product and they have every right to defend their property. It's not David vs. Goliath here.

Deadput wrote:

Seibertron wrote:As for the speed issue, don't forget 3rd party products don't have to adhere to things like "drop tests" or "choking hazards" or other things that need to be tested vigorously. They get to take shortcuts without any repercussions other than simply trying to churn a profit.

That and most of the time those companies don't make any other kind of product, they don't make Generations style or the more child aimed figures.

That gives them the time and resources to focus more on the Masterpiece style stuff.

I'm pretty sure there are more cogs in the machine than we realize at Hasbro. There's the more public face of the brand, but I think there's a lot of unsung heroes behind-the-scenes working on a lot of the day-to-day stuff that is less public or more mundane. I could be wrong, but that's my impression at least. Would love to be a fly on the wall at Hasbro for a week to see how it operates and to see the different phases of development with various products and ideas.

Seibertron wrote:
I'm pretty sure there are more cogs in the machine than we realize at Hasbro. There's the more public face of the brand, but I think there's a lot of unsung heroes behind-the-scenes working on a lot of the day-to-day stuff that is less public or more mundane. I could be wrong, but that's my impression at least. Would love to be a fly on the wall at Hasbro for a week to see how it operates and to see the different phases of development with various products and ideas.

For sure, Hasbro is a pretty big company managing a lot of different brands, that kind of place always has a lot of complicated stuff going on in the back, the bigger the company with bigger the staff the more things have to be carefully done and managed, and even then no company is perfect their not going to get it right 100 percent of the time.

My Mum works an insurance job and she frequently talks about all the complicated stuff that goes on behind the scenes and clients/customers aren't really ever going to know about that kind of stuff, and that's just a smaller local insurance place.


I agree it would be pretty cool to see how things worked behind the scenes at Hasbro, even for something non Transformers related.

to me 3rd party addons and accessories and upgrades are a great way to improve an official product
but having a stand a lone figure thats not official? it doesnt feel right in the first place

Seibertron wrote:

PadForce wrote:For me life is too short to wait for Hasbro to v2.0 or v3.0 all the MPs we have already had. Picked up MP01 a decade ago and still waiting for countless S1 characters.. yeah, no thanks.

How about the guy that's waiting for a million dollars to fall in to his lap (like most of us, I'm sure) but hasn't gotten it yet? Should he just go rob a bank to get what he wants? Just because Hasbro or Takara Tomy hasn't made it yet, doesn't mean you should get it or have a right to it. That's probably the worst justification that I ever hear about 3rd party products.

I feel like that's kind of a false equivalence morally, not only since the scale of the """theft""" is vastly different, but also because a 3rd party making a toy isn't enacting violence upon Hasbro (physical or psychological/emotional) like a bank robber is doing to the people at the bank.

I also don't quite understand having such a vehemently anti-third party stance when Hasbro themselves have been pretty damn "live and let live" about it for years (and probably even still now, given I feel Hasbro's take down of the video is likely primarily to do with the fact the name Unicron was actually used in the video), but who am I to judge?

Ultra Markus wrote:to me 3rd party addons and accessories and upgrades are a great way to improve an official product
but having a stand a lone figure thats not official? it doesnt feel right in the first place

Yeah I'm not against the companies themselves but products they sell that look exactly like the characters but have some fancy product name to avoid trademark problems.

"This here is our new Not-MP product Crocktimas Grime who is not the leader of the Autonaughts, he is not Optimus Prime despite looking exactly like him in robot form and vehicle mode, he even comes with a trailer with these not Autobot stickers on them!"

I'm surprised how just not acknowledging the name of the character will let them get away with selling exact likenesses of them.

Now if it was a vaguely Optimus looking figure but doesn't look exactly like him and is more of an original design then I'd say that's better as opposed to selling a very G1 accurate Not-Jazz who turns into a Porsche.

Thanks for the good arguments Deadput and Seibs, sign me up for wanting to know what goes on at Hasbro as I think the situation is far more complicated and a lot of backing and forthing. Like this issue with Unicron and Europe, it's not a matter of them saying "screw them" but a lot of cogs in a lot of machines. We can sit on the outside and say it should be simple but we don't have to adhere to business rules that govern these matters.

I do agree how unaccessible Unicron is to many regions and how the crowdfunding was handled wasn't great and that it probably could of been done better.

I very much doubt any of that was done with any malicious intent.

Even if this Unicron doesn't work out this time that doesn't mean Hasbro couldn't try it again in a few years using feedback and what they've learnt this time around for a better and more accessible Unicron.

Nothing makes me want to support a company less than when they go after third parties.

One of the things I credited to Hasbro is the fact they competed with third parties rather than wielding the power of attorney to simply destroy competition. Much like with the Disney animation of the 1990's, the need to actually compete greatly improved the quality of products. It has forced Hasbro to improve the way their IPs are used, serving as the middle range between the ludicrously expensive and the hilariously cheap knockoffs while providing incentives to tap into otherwise ignored demographics within their fanbases (read: fans of obscure characters).

This bodes poorly for any fans of Hasbro products, since if they do it once they will do it again, and without a need to maintain a quality/price ratio I would be shocked if we continued to get CHUG quality and instead simply get MP and Cyberverse as the two options.

As it is, this Unicron is a disgustingly overpriced greeble-infested mess and represents the continuing degradation of crowdfunding that they began with their "Jabba's Barge" nonsense.

This is nothing less than Hasbro pulling a Bethesda and running in the opposite direction away from what made them praiseworthy in business ethics, falling to match their morally bankrupt peers.

Just watch. It won't be long before they start going after upgrade kits, which was the only thing that made some of their more flawed or incomplete (such as the Optimal Optimus that lacks his fourth mode) figures into something recommended for purchase.

The idea that a figure that costs as much as a top of the line gaming system with games, or a really crappy used car, of a character that had a decent version in production for so long that its safe to assume that almost every single Transformers fan that collects and some people who don't has at least one, is insane.

If they were going to do this, it should have been something made for half the price, something labeled as an MP so people would be suckered into thinking it was worth the price, or a character who hasn't ever gotten a figure. Like Gaea/Atlas.

Seriously Hasbro, where's the Earthformer. You've used that Unicron mold as much as Combiner Wars Hot Spot retools, why not make the third and final of the characters you can use it as?

I'm pretty sure most third party's are hastak employees who purposefully design a figure with missing parts or require an upgrade so that their side company's can make a bit of cash :p
Either that or some hastak designers are just bad at their jobs.

Even for the kos if hasbro wanted new molds for g1 or to buy the molds from ko companies would be possible and we are starting to see changes there with some encores. Third parties are challenging hastak to do and be better and proving a market for stuff that hastak can do but choose not to. Variety and quality is key and if the official company isn't providing it I'm glad that others are. Whatever version is the best will get bought and the amount of official stuff I buy must out number ko 5 to 1 with some things I'll only settle for official and vice versa.

Zeta Unicron doesn't compare to the hasbro and trying to get it shut down will probably increase the demand for it or make people more aware of Zeta.

While I never cared for 3rd party either way (always found it too pricey for my taste so I only ever bought 3 and only 1 actually impressed me) I am really surprised that there are people out there who think they have the right to exist and do what they do, and that Hasbro is wrong to intervene if they wish. That makes no sense.

But hey, with that attitude, I think there's some potential. Batman live action films are sorely needed, the demand is HUGE and we are not getting enough. We always have to wait years for a new one. So, since you guys are cool with all this IP stuff, how about you make a live action Batman film and distribute it online on Itunes and Google Play, charging people for it. Just dont call him batman (not too hard, everyone knows who he is and you can say dark knight or caped crusader or simply bat) and come up with your own variation of the Bat Symbol and you'll be good. Billions of dollars await you, and demand will be met. So get on it!

Think some one must have missed the better than half the batfilms fan films, batman vs aliens/preds, redhood and even the slightly poor lobo one that's still better than batman n robin

It's like the piracy harms movies things, did I see natural born killers on pirate (which I could have asked/received better quality for free if the quality was bad) did I then see it at cinema and then did I buy the soundtrack... Piracy is not always bad. Legal and moral have different meanings and somethings that are legal are more harmful than things that are not. Maybe weird Al shouldn't be allowed to do parodies and sub par hasbro toys (especially those precious resource wasting 2ft+ plastic craptaculars rid things or the star wars ones) should be banned first.

william-james88 wrote:While I never cared for 3rd party either way (always found it too pricey for my taste so I only ever bought 3 and only 1 actually impressed me) I am really surprised that there are people out there who think they have the right to exist and do what they do, and that Hasbro is wrong to intervene if they wish. That makes no sense.

But hey, with that attitude, I think there's some potential. Batman live action films are sorely needed, the demand is HUGE and we are not getting enough. We always have to wait years for a new one. So, since you guys are cool with all this IP stuff, how about you make a live action Batman film and distribute it online on Itunes and Google Play, charging people for it. Just dont call him batman (not too hard, everyone knows who he is and you can say dark knight or caped crusader or simply bat) and come up with your own variation of the Bat Symbol and you'll be good. Billions of dollars await you, and demand will be met. So get on it!

Lol what a ridiculous analogy

I’d wager that what happened was that zeta had their figure in development - and upon seeing Hasbro’s Unicron, they’d realized the only to save their investment would be to deliberately sabotage the fund raiser. Then the fans would have no choice but to choose their toy. Could have been out of desperation or a deliberate cold business move.

And I’m sure it really ruffled Hasbros feathers and they got legal involved to shut zeta down.

This is all just my conjecture, but I see it as a strong possibility.

As for 3p, it sounds like I am in the boat with a lot of you. Upgrades are great and feel less wrong. They require you to buy the has to figures. The other place I am grateful for them is when Hasbro seemingly cannot release a figure due to some legal barrier. Still I am holding out hope for mirage, Jazz, and cliffjumper.

Here’s hoping Unicron makes it.

Seibertron wrote:
What is most bafflingly is the short sightedness that 3rd party supporters have for the long term longevity of this brand and the damage that 3rd party does to the official brand and to Hasbro and Takara Tomy. I'm in this hobby for the long haul. I've been collecting since 1984. Never stopped. It has been my passion for all but the first 7 years of my life. This site is here because of my passion. I dread the moment thinking about this fandom and the Transformers brand ultimately being destroyed because of the long term damage 3rd party products does to both. The more 3rd party takes over the fandom, the closer the brand is to ultimately failing.

What long term damage? I’m not trying to be a smart ass, l’m genuinely curious and want to know. I might not be as passionate as you, but I’ve been a fan for just as long. Well almost. I left the fandom shortly after the fallout from the first movie.

3rd party products played a huge part in bringing me back in. In fact, I still buy official product largely because of the interest 3rd party keeps with me. Every collector I know of who buys 3rd party is the same. It enhances and expands our interest in official product.

Also, we are such I tiny slice of the consumer pie, I have a hard time believing we are even a blip on Hasbros radar. Especially considering in the years since 3rd party came about, the brand has done nothing but grow. Also, the main slice of market 3rd party affects is masterpiece, a slice Hasbro cares very little for. Their money and success comes from big box retail store lines. They may pay lip service to mp, but their actions speak louder. Any dollars given to 3rd party were dollars never going to Hasbro in the first place, as Hasbro had nothing to sell. No loss = no damage. When and if Hasbro (well, Takara really) does offer an official figure, almost every 3rd party collector I know buys it as well. MP-44 Prime May be the first to buck that trend, but that is more because of the ludicrous price, and even then, most are buying it as well.

Hasbro sees no threat, why should we? Again, I’m not trying to be a smart ass here, but if I’m missing something beyond differences of believe in the ethics of business practice, I do want to know.

Taking a step in here, I want to bring up something that was mentioned in an older Podcast, and one that I'm hoping ScottyP could touch on too since he was the one talking about it.

Simply put, there was another podcast where they had an IP Lawyer on to talk about Hasbro vs. 3P. The short of it was, by the time legal fees are done, Hasbro is spending more money to shut down 3P than they are actually losing to 3P. You all may think the 3P market is really huge with all the companies and all the product, but it's actually really small in comparison to what Hasbro actually makes. This is why 3P's have existed for as long as they do: they are simply a fly to the Hasbro Deer, not a wolf or coyote.

Now Unicron is a different story. You have what is meant to be the crown jewel of all Transformers released since 1984. This is the king, the figure that shows up on every flyer Hasbro advetises for decades to come. (and don't even argue how good it is here, this is what Hasbro intends, just go with it) At the same time the funding for it is occurring (which is huge, it's huge, you can't just make it without funding, it's a risk, and those that usually sell at this price have their market and have their customer base numbers solid) another unofficial figure is revealed that is vying for the same market. I would be pissed, since it did show to be leeching numbers and did damage to the official unicron campaign. So in this case, there is a good reason to go after them: they might have prevented your crown jewel from being created, and have taken away part of your market.

So I am all for hasbro going after Zeta, and it appears they have succeeded, as I've started to get some word that zeta's unicron is being aborted.

3P infringement is not OK with making the exact figures others are making. I am not a fan of 3P figures, and have only ever bought 1 myself, and that one has no Hasbro representation at all, nor does it seem it ever will. They have every right to go after 3Ps. I would not want someone else using my intellectual property for their own money. That's how it works.

That said, I am still hoping Haslab unicron makes it. It is a crown jewel, and I want to see it made.

PadForce wrote:

william-james88 wrote:While I never cared for 3rd party either way (always found it too pricey for my taste so I only ever bought 3 and only 1 actually impressed me) I am really surprised that there are people out there who think they have the right to exist and do what they do, and that Hasbro is wrong to intervene if they wish. That makes no sense.

But hey, with that attitude, I think there's some potential. Batman live action films are sorely needed, the demand is HUGE and we are not getting enough. We always have to wait years for a new one. So, since you guys are cool with all this IP stuff, how about you make a live action Batman film and distribute it online on Itunes and Google Play, charging people for it. Just dont call him batman (not too hard, everyone knows who he is and you can say dark knight or caped crusader or simply bat) and come up with your own variation of the Bat Symbol and you'll be good. Billions of dollars await you, and demand will be met. So get on it!

Lol what a ridiculous analogy

How is it different to what Zeta was doing in terms of profitting off stolen IP and unmet demand? Legit curious here.

william-james88 wrote:

PadForce wrote:

william-james88 wrote:While I never cared for 3rd party either way (always found it too pricey for my taste so I only ever bought 3 and only 1 actually impressed me) I am really surprised that there are people out there who think they have the right to exist and do what they do, and that Hasbro is wrong to intervene if they wish. That makes no sense.

But hey, with that attitude, I think there's some potential. Batman live action films are sorely needed, the demand is HUGE and we are not getting enough. We always have to wait years for a new one. So, since you guys are cool with all this IP stuff, how about you make a live action Batman film and distribute it online on Itunes and Google Play, charging people for it. Just dont call him batman (not too hard, everyone knows who he is and you can say dark knight or caped crusader or simply bat) and come up with your own variation of the Bat Symbol and you'll be good. Billions of dollars await you, and demand will be met. So get on it!

Lol what a ridiculous analogy

How is it different to what Zeta was doing in terms of profitting off stolen IP and unmet demand? Legit curious here.

Not going to use my time spelling out the blindingly obvious. Couldnt be further removed in substance

PadForce wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

PadForce wrote:

william-james88 wrote:While I never cared for 3rd party either way (always found it too pricey for my taste so I only ever bought 3 and only 1 actually impressed me) I am really surprised that there are people out there who think they have the right to exist and do what they do, and that Hasbro is wrong to intervene if they wish. That makes no sense.

But hey, with that attitude, I think there's some potential. Batman live action films are sorely needed, the demand is HUGE and we are not getting enough. We always have to wait years for a new one. So, since you guys are cool with all this IP stuff, how about you make a live action Batman film and distribute it online on Itunes and Google Play, charging people for it. Just dont call him batman (not too hard, everyone knows who he is and you can say dark knight or caped crusader or simply bat) and come up with your own variation of the Bat Symbol and you'll be good. Billions of dollars await you, and demand will be met. So get on it!

Lol what a ridiculous analogy

How is it different to what Zeta was doing in terms of profitting off stolen IP and unmet demand? Legit curious here.

Not going to use my time spelling out the blindingly obvious. Couldnt be further removed in substance

Sounds like someone realized they dont have a point and is wimping out of a conversation.

william-james88 wrote:

PadForce wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

PadForce wrote:

william-james88 wrote:While I never cared for 3rd party either way (always found it too pricey for my taste so I only ever bought 3 and only 1 actually impressed me) I am really surprised that there are people out there who think they have the right to exist and do what they do, and that Hasbro is wrong to intervene if they wish. That makes no sense.

But hey, with that attitude, I think there's some potential. Batman live action films are sorely needed, the demand is HUGE and we are not getting enough. We always have to wait years for a new one. So, since you guys are cool with all this IP stuff, how about you make a live action Batman film and distribute it online on Itunes and Google Play, charging people for it. Just dont call him batman (not too hard, everyone knows who he is and you can say dark knight or caped crusader or simply bat) and come up with your own variation of the Bat Symbol and you'll be good. Billions of dollars await you, and demand will be met. So get on it!

Lol what a ridiculous analogy

How is it different to what Zeta was doing in terms of profitting off stolen IP and unmet demand? Legit curious here.

Not going to use my time spelling out the blindingly obvious. Couldnt be further removed in substance

Sounds like someone realized they dont have a point and is wimping out of a conversation.
Added to ignore list.

No,I was just amused enough to lol,but dont care enough to argue.

Cares given about ignore list: zero.

Car manufacturtures have design IPs but you must never heard of kit cars and the Pontiac Fiero lol

Quality you say, explain to me Generations Blitzwing, or better yet CHUG Prowl withe the paint coming off the doors. Blitzwing has numerous videos as to the problems didnt see Hasbro fix it at all.

MP supply vs demand is huge. If a company is willing to fill the void the other company didnt attempt to fill guess what is going to happen? Hasbro cant go after the consumer base that pays them lol!! It's called business 101.

MP has it bad as the gap of the years vs the figures produced is a very long stretch since MP-10.

Bottom line Hasbro is a company that wants MY money. If the market of consumers speak and in unison it speaks volumes to a company.

All I can say is Zeta if Hasbro is the one that pulled their video made a terrible mistake. However if Hasbro goes after 3P it will hurt them in the long run as the fans have always bought official as well as 3P. It's funny how I have watched this place at times de-evolve to grade school like murmurings and use Hasbro as if they are god writing the bible. You could ban me if you want coz I am a consumer. Im either buiyng or not buying all that talk is pointless.

You see the MP line is the top of the line for Transformers and collectors run the race. Hasbro doenst want to lose money buy killing 3P. 3P doenst even hurt the most bottom of bottom lines as most 3P companies arent making millions of dollars.

Zeta overall are idiots, bold ones at that but 3P is here to stay.

bvzxa wrote: However if Hasbro goes after 3P it will hurt them in the long run as the fans have always bought official as well as 3P.

But wasnt the whole point of this whole Zeta thing that fans were wanting to buy 3p but not official?

Also, how does Hasbro get hurt in the long run from going after 3p? I thought they would only get hurt short term due to extra for legal fees and such.

D-Maximal_Primal wrote:Taking a step in here, I want to bring up something that was mentioned in an older Podcast, and one that I'm hoping ScottyP could touch on too since he was the one talking about it.

Simply put, there was another podcast where they had an IP Lawyer on to talk about Hasbro vs. 3P. The short of it was, by the time legal fees are done, Hasbro is spending more money to shut down 3P than they are actually losing to 3P. You all may think the 3P market is really huge with all the companies and all the product, but it's actually really small in comparison to what Hasbro actually makes. This is why 3P's have existed for as long as they do: they are simply a fly to the Hasbro Deer, not a wolf or coyote.

Now Unicron is a different story. You have what is meant to be the crown jewel of all Transformers released since 1984. This is the king, the figure that shows up on every flyer Hasbro advetises for decades to come. (and don't even argue how good it is here, this is what Hasbro intends, just go with it) At the same time the funding for it is occurring (which is huge, it's huge, you can't just make it without funding, it's a risk, and those that usually sell at this price have their market and have their customer base numbers solid) another unofficial figure is revealed that is vying for the same market. I would be pissed, since it did show to be leeching numbers and did damage to the official unicron campaign. So in this case, there is a good reason to go after them: they might have prevented your crown jewel from being created, and have taken away part of your market.

So I am all for hasbro going after Zeta, and it appears they have succeeded, as I've started to get some word that zeta's unicron is being aborted.

3P infringement is not OK with making the exact figures others are making. I am not a fan of 3P figures, and have only ever bought 1 myself, and that one has no Hasbro representation at all, nor does it seem it ever will. They have every right to go after 3Ps. I would not want someone else using my intellectual property for their own money. That's how it works.

That said, I am still hoping Haslab Unicron makes it. It is a crown jewel, and I want to see it made.

Love this D-Max, so well said. And I was under the impression 3P was more of a presence, I mean, just with the constant Devy's and other combiners, the high price tags, I didn't realize.

For me it does boil down to the principal of the thing. I mean come on, I'm not a religious guy or an angel by any stretch but I do ask myself what would Optimus do, and I don't think Optimus would dig on the principal of 3P vs. official products. Despite his obvious biases

Ever since Classics Magnus got his upgrade armor I've always thought add ons, extra stickers, stuff like that was really cool because it enhances the toy I already bought which Hasbro made. It just feels ethically cleaner to me.