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HMW2: A Minicon Turf War!!

Discuss the Heavy Metal War game, report bugs, challenge opponents, and talk some smack! Play the Heavy Metal War game here.

Postby Phaze » Fri May 18, 2007 8:59 am

Motto: ""All's Fair in Life and Death""
Weapon: Nuclear Charged Fusion Cannon
Burn wrote:
kaijubot_uk wrote:Burn, I'm curious, do you object to this particular power-up, or the concept of power-ups in general?


I guess you could say any power up in general.

Unless there's a way for a bot to increase it's natural abilities in a natural way to counter a bot with outside forces boosted abilities then I see some people who like to role-play their characters at a disadvantage.

Like Nucleon or maybe custom abilities e.g. skywarps teleport or rumbles ground tremors :-?
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Postby Kaijubot » Fri May 18, 2007 9:02 am

Motto: "No one escapes retribution."
Weapon: Energy Blades
Burn wrote:Which is why if things are going to be explained, greater detail would be nice so we all don't sit around discussing what may and may not happen.

I think it's safe to say we were tired of the cryptic stuff before and rejoiced when someone said he'd be more up front and open about things.


I wholeheartedly agree. While I understand that OS may like to keep some things secret so we have some surprises, I do feel that we could use some information about key features.
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Postby Burn » Fri May 18, 2007 9:07 am

Motto: "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings to randomly click things in the Admin Panel to see what it breaks."
Phaze wrote:Like Nucleon or maybe custom abilities e.g. skywarps teleport or rumbles ground tremors :-?


Nucleon leads to Action Masters! Bad Phaze bad!
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Postby Omega Sentinel » Fri May 18, 2007 9:20 am

kaijubot_uk wrote:
Burn wrote:Which is why if things are going to be explained, greater detail would be nice so we all don't sit around discussing what may and may not happen.

I think it's safe to say we were tired of the cryptic stuff before and rejoiced when someone said he'd be more up front and open about things.


I wholeheartedly agree. While I understand that OS may like to keep some things secret so we have some surprises, I do feel that we could use some information about key features.

There is a couple of problems with sharing every last detail behind every line of code I am writing...One is that it isn't finished yet!
I am in the middle of development here. You believe I am hiding things? OK....

[sarcasm]
If I was finished I would be happy to give all of you the entire spec of the new application...Maybe post every line of the PHP code behind it....Maybe post all of the equations behind every action/counter-action.
I'm sure everyone would have a blast playing a game where nothing needs to be figured out. No winners, no losers, no experimentation with your characters.
Oh, that would be fun.
[/sarcasm]

Burn wrote:Which is why if things are going to be explained, greater detail would be nice so we all don't sit around discussing what may and may not happen.

I find it hilarious that every post I make about the new application a new debate/argument is spawned no matter how much or little I disclose.

I am quickly accused of "not listening" and "being cryptic" everytime I try to listen or explain.

This will be my last post that gives away anything about HMW2 for a while. Burn is right. If every line of code is needed as explanation for what the new game is going to do, I can not accomodate.

I will put new info on the forums when things are closer to finished.
Last edited by Omega Sentinel on Fri May 18, 2007 1:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Archanubis » Fri May 18, 2007 9:22 am

Motto: "Don't take life too seriously or you'll never get out of it alive."
Weapon: Lightning Rifle
Burn wrote:Unless there's a way for a bot to increase it's natural abilities in a natural way to counter a bot with outside forces boosted abilities then I see some people who like to role-play their characters at a disadvantage.

I can see what you're saying Burn, but as far as I understand it, HMW is not a true RPG game. In a true RPG, you're actually playing the role of a character or characters, interacting with other players who are playing the role of their characters, and basing your results on a "game master". HMW is closer to something you get for an Xbox or PS3, and powerups have been a staple of those games since Mario first started eating mushrooms, if not earlier. Again, that's just how I see it, other may have another view.

I have an idea for how Minicons could work in the game:
1. Minicons could be limited by a bot's rank or level. Just as an example, a Minicon upgrade would only be available to those bots who've had their rank upgraded to 5, or reached a level of five.

2. A Minicon upgrade could both help and handicapp a bot that's bearing one. For example, a bot with a Minicon upgrade could bear two or more weapons, but the weapon with the higher damage ratio wouldn't work unless the Minicon is "powerlinked" with said partner. Using the Armada cartoon as an example, Starscream had three weapons: his sword, a set of laser machine guns in his chest, and the null-laser cannons on his shoulders. The null lasers were arguably the most powerful weapons in his arsenal, but he couldn't use them unless Swindle was powerlinked with him. Same concept here; a bot with a disruptor rifle and a fusion cannon can only use the disruptor unless their Minicon is attached; that can be a problem if their Minicon has been stasis locked.

3. Minicons can be used as autonymous units for their partners, taking pot shots at the enemy for example, or even repairing allies depending on the alt. The only hitch is that the damage they incure is less than that of their partner 'bot, say, 1/3 just to throw out a number. For example, if a Minicon is partnered with a bot with 3 FRP, the Minicon has the invested firepower of 1. The damage they incure on a target is also affected by the opponent's level of armor and endurance.

By the same token, the damage a Minicon can take is also less than the damage that their partner can take and are considered valid targets. Minicons are smaller than the average Transformer, about the size of an average human if one goes by the cartoon, which, while they're a more difficult target to hit, also means they have lighter armor and less endurance, so they take a greater degree of damage. This could be affected by the partner's armor and endurance levels, but always on a smaller scale, like the aforementioned 1/3 ration for their relative firepower.

One issue I can see with autonomy would be that a Minicon could continue fighting even after their partner has been stasis locked. This could be solved by having the Minicon "retreat" if their partner is stasis locked before they are, though the same wouldn't be true if the Minicon is stasis locked first. Since the Minicon is the power up, if your character dies, you "lose" said powerup.

4. The time a Minicon and its partner are "powerlinked" is limited; this can be affected by the main bot's level of Endurance. For example, a bot with 5 END is going to be able to maintain the powerlink longer than a bot with 4 or less END.

5. Going back to the idea of a Minicon as a valid target, players could pay a higher CR cost for a Minicon-equipped character than for a character that's not equipped with a Minicon. Considering that the Minicon would be considered a target along with its partner, any damage it takes would add to the cost of repairs. Just to throw a number out, the cost could be as high as 10% more than the average cost for a bot without a Minicon; if the Minicon's been stasis locked during the course of the mission.

These of course are just some ideas I had.
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Postby Novacron » Fri May 18, 2007 10:54 am

Omega Sentinel wrote:I am quickly accused of "not listening" and "being cryptic" everytime I try to listen or explain.

This will be my last post that gives away anything about HMW2 for a while. Burn is right. If every line of code is needed as explanation for what the new game is going to do, I can not accomodate.

I will put new info on the forums when things are closer to finished.


I think you're doing a fine job. Remember, we criticize because we care. ;)^
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Postby Omega Sentinel » Fri May 18, 2007 11:03 am

Novacron wrote:I think you're doing a fine job. Remember, we criticize because we care. ;)^

I welcome criticism. Most of the arguments that have been brought up here are very valid. Unfortunately, I don't have answers for them yet.

It's the programmer vs. player attitude 1 or 2 people have that I am sick of.
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Postby Archanubis » Fri May 18, 2007 11:13 am

Motto: "Don't take life too seriously or you'll never get out of it alive."
Weapon: Lightning Rifle
Omega Sentinel wrote:
Novacron wrote:I think you're doing a fine job. Remember, we criticize because we care. ;)^

I welcome criticism. Most of the arguments that have been brought up here are very valid. Unfortunately, I don't have answers for them yet.

It's the programmer vs. player attitude 1 or 2 people have that I am sick of.

Don't worry about it too much. Glyph got the same level of slag when he was head programmer. You've done an admirable job of picking up where he left off. And you've shown a considerable level of patience, more so than some might.
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Postby Optimus Frimal » Fri May 18, 2007 11:21 am

Omega Sentinel wrote:
Novacron wrote:I think you're doing a fine job. Remember, we criticize because we care. ;)^

I welcome criticism. Most of the arguments that have been brought up here are very valid. Unfortunately, I don't have answers for them yet.

It's the programmer vs. player attitude 1 or 2 people have that I am sick of.


I also think you are doing a great job, by keeping things secret and letting them out bit by bit has made the feel around this board swing from 'I hate V2' to 'I think V2's going to rock!'
I can't wait for V2 and don't want to know everything that's going to happen, I want to be surprised by all of the brilliant new stuff! :D
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Postby davidasnoddy » Fri May 18, 2007 2:30 pm

So basically what you're saying is a player should either jump on the power up bandwagon thus compromising the character of their bot (and trust me, there's a LOT of players out there who have spent a long time creating and refining their characters) or I can be simply left behind?


Much in the same way that people have had to "jump" on the not putting any XP into Intelligence "bandwagon"...

I don't really see how using one little Minicon compromises anyone's character more than a specific weapon does.

And what happened to the old idea of configuring bots YOUR way? Might be a bit hard if you have no choice but to use power ups just to stay in the game. Kinda takes a decision out of your hands.


Again, this is a strategic game, and certain strategies don't work. Investing all your XP into Rank and Intelligence doesn't work, ignoring minicons may not work, trying to fight unarmed without Strength won't work.

Some people might not be willing to compromise the integrity of their characters just to play with power ups.

Then they have to do exactly the same thing as they've had to do in this game. I know of people out there who build there tfs acording to how they imagine the charecter should be built, rather than how the game emchanics sujest. In the end it will always be a playoff between preference and practicality.

QFT.

Why should the rest of us (the majority) miss out on a nifty gimmick cuase some dont want to use it?

So you honestly don't give a **** about game balance?

How is this a game balance issue? If something's available to everyone, it's not a game balance issue. If something is NOT available to everyone, THAT's when it becomes a game balance issue.

Maybe it "compromises the character" (how?), maybe it's just not advantageous this time out, maybe it's better served elsewhere, maybe it's purple and doesn't go with your green colour scheme. But, that's entirely up to you. At least you'll have the choice.

Battle blades - aren't available to everyone, because there's a limited number. If you live in the wrong country, you'll never get an equal shot at buying some because they'll be out of stock by the time that you get there. Now, THAT's a game balance issue. People choosing to avoid certain strategies that are available to them because they prefer to something else? Not really a problem, in my eyes.
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Postby Flashwave » Fri May 18, 2007 4:44 pm

Motto: "Our society's downfall will not be this war. The war IS our society. That which will get us will be the little things. Some humanoid race, some tossed cannon, the little things that no one looks out for. THAT is for what we must be vigilant."
Weapon: Twin Shoulder-Mounted Rocket Launchers
I'm sorry for feeding the flames I sparked, but i got left at the gate and am confused. Minicons are being treated as 1-shot deals, as a weapon with a personality, or like a helper unit on a train to take a load off the other engine?

Thanks and sorry.

EDIT: And thanks for clarifyin my fears for over-amping. As far as "Being left behind" Think about it like this. The Battle Blades are over-amped. But not everyone uses them, and they've managed to survive alright. I don't THINK the minicons would be any different.
Last edited by Flashwave on Fri May 18, 2007 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Omega Sentinel » Fri May 18, 2007 4:48 pm

Flashwave wrote:I'm sorry for feeding the flames I sparked, but i got left at the gate and am confused. Minicons are being treated as 1-shot deals, as a weapon with a personality, or like a helper unit on a train to take a load off the other engine?

Thanks and sorry.
You pay energon to link to it to get a specific boost of some kind for a single mission or campaign...That's it.
And you will only have certain ones available to you based on the territories your faction controls.

It's not as big a deal as people are making it.
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Postby Flashwave » Fri May 18, 2007 4:55 pm

Motto: "Our society's downfall will not be this war. The war IS our society. That which will get us will be the little things. Some humanoid race, some tossed cannon, the little things that no one looks out for. THAT is for what we must be vigilant."
Weapon: Twin Shoulder-Mounted Rocket Launchers
Omega Sentinel wrote:
Flashwave wrote:I'm sorry for feeding the flames I sparked, but i got left at the gate and am confused. Minicons are being treated as 1-shot deals, as a weapon with a personality, or like a helper unit on a train to take a load off the other engine?

Thanks and sorry.
You pay energon to link to it to get a specific boost of some kind for a single mission or campaign...That's it.
And you will only have certain ones available to you based on the territories your faction controls.

It's not as big a deal as people are making it.


oh, so we have mercenary-cons. :grin:
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Postby steve2275 » Sat May 19, 2007 1:37 am

Motto: "it may not get better
but it wont get any worse"
Burn wrote:OS, I just had an idea.

Make steve part of the support staff. I just know he's dieing to contribute to the game but his shyness makes it hard for him to talk in a big group. So a smaller group might be able to draw him out of his shell. :P

um no
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Postby Garthantash » Fri May 25, 2007 6:12 am

I am one of those simple armchair bot controllers that don't really watch the forums much (and I know I probably should) but have been playing for years now.

v2??? Woo hoo! this is the first I have heard of it and I am even more psyched up then when i found out about the transmetal dragon alt form being in the rotation.

Keep up the great work and I look forward to the Brave New World!
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