The Energon Pub

That's not fully accurate. The general toon dimensions were used, combined with details from other sources. Ironhide has hardly, if ever, been a straight toon recreation in most general releases, unless specifically designed as such (such as the G1 MP, Mega PVC and SS86 versions, etc).

Personally I'd prefer it if HasTak just stuck with original designs each time...I mean, sure maybe do an "accurate" mold here and there whenever engineering improves to impress and appease fans of the classic 80's designs, but I really enjoyed Siege Ironhide for being a fun sci-fi take on the old 'bot.

Never any love for Classics/Henkei Ironhide.

Burn wrote:Never any love for Classics/Henkei Ironhide.

I actually quite like what it tried to accomplish conceptually - I don't think the figure is as bad as people parrot it to be, but it was genuinely one figure I was thinking of that was trying to be an original take on the classic Onebox 'bots while still being recognisable as 'em.

SpaceEagle wrote:

Burn wrote:Never any love for Classics/Henkei Ironhide.

I actually quite like what it tried to accomplish conceptually - I don't think the figure is as bad as people parrot it to be, but it was genuinely one figure I was thinking of that was trying to be an original take on the classic Onebox 'bots while still being recognisable as 'em.

It was the QC issues that let it down. The crooked neck (although Ironhide is old, so there's that) and the "zigzag" panel lines didn't help it.

SpaceEagle wrote:

Burn wrote:Never any love for Classics/Henkei Ironhide.

I actually quite like what it tried to accomplish conceptually - I don't think the figure is as bad as people parrot it to be, but it was genuinely one figure I was thinking of that was trying to be an original take on the classic Onebox 'bots while still being recognisable as 'em.

I like it because it's not straight up G1. It's what I loved about CHUG, they took old characters and gave them truly modern make overs. Making Ironhide/Ratchet into SUV style vehicles worked.

Don't get me wrong, what they've done in recent years taking the classic G1 look and giving them modern engineering is all fine and dandy and great for nostalgia, but I'd much prefer them using modern vehicles (as much as they can without licensing issues) with modern engineering.

But that's kind of irrelevant when it comes to this thread anyway.

Now what I would REALLY think would be a fun inclusion in the line would be G2 Ironhide in all his Power Master-y goodness.

Burn wrote:

SpaceEagle wrote:

Burn wrote:Never any love for Classics/Henkei Ironhide.

I actually quite like what it tried to accomplish conceptually - I don't think the figure is as bad as people parrot it to be, but it was genuinely one figure I was thinking of that was trying to be an original take on the classic Onebox 'bots while still being recognisable as 'em.

I like it because it's not straight up G1. It's what I loved about CHUG, they took old characters and gave them truly modern make overs. Making Ironhide/Ratchet into SUV style vehicles worked.

Don't get me wrong, what they've done in recent years taking the classic G1 look and giving them modern engineering is all fine and dandy and great for nostalgia, but I'd much prefer them using modern vehicles (as much as they can without licensing issues) with modern engineering.

But that's kind of irrelevant when it comes to this thread anyway.

Heh, yeah, that's why I mentioned preferring it when HasTak gave us more original designs.
I totally don't mind doing a figure here and there to recapture the ol' 80's look, but CHUG was really fun with the new takes!

primalxconvoy wrote:That's not fully accurate. The general toon dimensions were used, combined with details from other sources. Ironhide has hardly, if ever, been a straight toon recreation in most general releases, unless specifically designed as such (such as the G1 MP, Mega PVC and SS86 versions, etc).

Again, you're getting hooked up on things I didn't say. I never said 100% toon accurate, I never said straight toon recreation. I said repeat, as in they keep repeating the same design cues established by the cartoon and comics because those designs are the iconic ones, not the toy which mainly was represented in the very earliest of books before the iconic design was established.

Emerje

Emerje wrote:

primalxconvoy wrote:That's not fully accurate. The general toon dimensions were used, combined with details from other sources. Ironhide has hardly, if ever, been a straight toon recreation in most general releases, unless specifically designed as such (such as the G1 MP, Mega PVC and SS86 versions, etc).

Again, you're getting hooked up on things I didn't say. I never said 100% toon accurate, I never said straight toon recreation. I said repeat, as in they keep repeating the same design cues established by the cartoon and comics because those designs are the iconic ones, not the toy which mainly was represented in the very earliest of books before the iconic design was established.

Emerje

Except you did just that. You started clearly that Ironhide today is based almost exclusively upon the cartoon. I mentioned the comic, but you only added that point later.

primalxconvoy wrote:

Emerje wrote:

primalxconvoy wrote:That's not fully accurate. The general toon dimensions were used, combined with details from other sources. Ironhide has hardly, if ever, been a straight toon recreation in most general releases, unless specifically designed as such (such as the G1 MP, Mega PVC and SS86 versions, etc).

Again, you're getting hooked up on things I didn't say. I never said 100% toon accurate, I never said straight toon recreation. I said repeat, as in they keep repeating the same design cues established by the cartoon and comics because those designs are the iconic ones, not the toy which mainly was represented in the very earliest of books before the iconic design was established.

Emerje

Except you did just that. You started clearly that Ironhide today is based almost exclusively upon the cartoon. I mentioned the comic, but you only added that point later.

Screenshot_20220810-161211.jpg

I'll just interject that "Based directly" is not the same as "based exclusively"
Or "based almost exclusively"
That's just arguing semantics at that point honestly, the general point of "future Ironhide designs take heavy cues from the 'toon look" is still clearly established.

SpaceEagle wrote:

primalxconvoy wrote:

Emerje wrote:

primalxconvoy wrote:That's not fully accurate. The general toon dimensions were used, combined with details from other sources. Ironhide has hardly, if ever, been a straight toon recreation in most general releases, unless specifically designed as such (such as the G1 MP, Mega PVC and SS86 versions, etc).

Again, you're getting hooked up on things I didn't say. I never said 100% toon accurate, I never said straight toon recreation. I said repeat, as in they keep repeating the same design cues established by the cartoon and comics because those designs are the iconic ones, not the toy which mainly was represented in the very earliest of books before the iconic design was established.

Emerje

Except you did just that. You started clearly that Ironhide today is based almost exclusively upon the cartoon. I mentioned the comic, but you only added that point later.

Screenshot_20220810-161211.jpg

I'll just interject that "Based directly" is not the same as "based exclusively"
Or "based almost exclusively"
That's just arguing semantics at that point honestly, the general point of "future Ironhide designs take heavy cues from the 'toon look" is still clearly established.

And I will counter with that you should be more careful in your use of language, lest you be seen to be moving the goalposts.

I will also accept your admittance that Ironhide is based upon MANY different design cues, not exclusively the G1 cartoon. Thank you for that.

primalxconvoy wrote:

SpaceEagle wrote:

primalxconvoy wrote:

Emerje wrote:

primalxconvoy wrote:That's not fully accurate. The general toon dimensions were used, combined with details from other sources. Ironhide has hardly, if ever, been a straight toon recreation in most general releases, unless specifically designed as such (such as the G1 MP, Mega PVC and SS86 versions, etc).

Again, you're getting hooked up on things I didn't say. I never said 100% toon accurate, I never said straight toon recreation. I said repeat, as in they keep repeating the same design cues established by the cartoon and comics because those designs are the iconic ones, not the toy which mainly was represented in the very earliest of books before the iconic design was established.

Emerje

Except you did just that. You started clearly that Ironhide today is based almost exclusively upon the cartoon. I mentioned the comic, but you only added that point later.

Screenshot_20220810-161211.jpg

I'll just interject that "Based directly" is not the same as "based exclusively"
Or "based almost exclusively"
That's just arguing semantics at that point honestly, the general point of "future Ironhide designs take heavy cues from the 'toon look" is still clearly established.

And I will counter with that you should be more careful in your use of language, lest you be seen to be moving the goalposts.

I will also accept your admittance that Ironhide is based upon MANY different design cues, not exclusively the G1 cartoon. Thank you for that.

Emerje used "directly" correctly, since "directly" implies that the 'toon was the primary source of inspiration for future designs whereas "exclusively" implies the 'toon was the sole source of inspiration.

But yeah I definitely can't say Ironhide designs are based 1-to-1 on the G1 'toon. Especially thanks to a certain film franchise that made HasTak millions...like, even with how geewunny Animated was, the Earth-mode concept for Ironhide was very much live-action inspired!

SpaceEagle wrote:Emerje used "directly" correctly...

Incorrect.

primalxconvoy wrote:

SpaceEagle wrote:Emerje used "directly" correctly...

Incorrect.

Screenshot_20220810-171930.jpg

Oh huh, weird. I genuinely haven't seen people use it in that manner, now that's surprising!

Burn wrote:Never any love for Classics/Henkei Ironhide.

I liked Henkei Ironhide quite a bit (the US version had that weird blue paint). He was a go-to for taking off the shelf and transforming every now and then.

The missassembly / low chin makes him lose a few points. And I feel he's too short (like many toys of that era). But I always felt he got a bad rap. Given ER's just terrible alt. mode it was a real tossup whether I'd replace him and if ER wasn't in a two pack I may very well not have.

Since when are Emerje and I the same person?

So many other aspects of the G1 toys have been left in the past too, not just the separate sled and robot components for Ironhide and Ratchet. For one, they both have heads now. More broadly, though, we have cases like Optimus Prime’s hands being separate pieces that don’t officially store anywhere, the seekers requiring parts forming, especially for the wings, with no way to store all kibble in either mode, or Bumbleebee having a battle mask instead of his face.

I can understand liking that play aspect of the original toy, but demanding it’s inclusion in a modern take of how the character was actually represented in TV, film, and print media, as opposed to the Japanese mech suit toy it was based on seems a little strange, especially when you’re not demanding Earthrise Optimus Prime have removable hands or saying Netflix Bumblebee should have a battle mask.

primalxconvoy wrote:

Emerje wrote:

primalxconvoy wrote:That's not fully accurate. The general toon dimensions were used, combined with details from other sources. Ironhide has hardly, if ever, been a straight toon recreation in most general releases, unless specifically designed as such (such as the G1 MP, Mega PVC and SS86 versions, etc).

Again, you're getting hooked up on things I didn't say. I never said 100% toon accurate, I never said straight toon recreation. I said repeat, as in they keep repeating the same design cues established by the cartoon and comics because those designs are the iconic ones, not the toy which mainly was represented in the very earliest of books before the iconic design was established.

Emerje

Except you did just that. You started clearly that Ironhide today is based almost exclusively upon the cartoon. I mentioned the comic, but you only added that point later.

Sabrblade wrote:Since when are Emerje and I the same person?

Emerje

Wow, this is some hard core rabbit hole crap. To be honest I don't nor have i ever cared for that G1 look for Ironhide/Ratchet and is the main reason why I never bought them as a kid, because the toy didn't look like how they appeared on TV. When I came across Ironhide, my second favorite character at the time, I was extremely disappointed with how it looked! It didn't resemble the character one bit and I had no place in my house for such an abomination.

And Masterpiece version aside I'm glad to finally have a proper G1 Ironhide Robot action figure after 30+ freaking years! Granted I do have my nitpicks about this newer version but it's not about the actual look/design of the figure.

Emerje wrote:We are not...

Sabrblade wrote:...the same person

My apologies to you both for the mix-up.

primalxconvoy wrote:

Emerje wrote:

primalxconvoy wrote:That's not fully accurate. The general toon dimensions were used, combined with details from other sources. Ironhide has hardly, if ever, been a straight toon recreation in most general releases, unless specifically designed as such (such as the G1 MP, Mega PVC and SS86 versions, etc).

Again, you're getting hooked up on things I didn't say. I never said 100% toon accurate, I never said straight toon recreation. I said repeat, as in they keep repeating the same design cues established by the cartoon and comics because those designs are the iconic ones, not the toy which mainly was represented in the very earliest of books before the iconic design was established.

Emerje

Except you did just that. You started clearly that Ironhide today is based almost exclusively upon the cartoon. I mentioned the comic, but you only added that point later.

That's Sabrblade, not Emerje. EDIT: This has been recognized.

And, as others have already pointed out, the statements "based directly on it in some fashion" and "based almost exclusively on" mean two different things.

primalxconvoy wrote:

SpaceEagle wrote:Emerje used "directly" correctly...

Incorrect.

You've illustrated that an english word can have multiple definitions based on the context it's used in, yes. That doesn't mean you can just pick one of those several definitions and, ignoring the original context, insert that specific definition into the original quote and claim that the other person is wrong because they used a word's definition that you imposed on their statement. For example, I can't just pick the "at once, instantly" definition from that list and then claim that the author of the original statement is wrong because obviously every Ironhide design used in the last 30+ years wasn't designed in the 80's immediately after they finalized the cartoon design, because that's clearly not what Sabrblade meant to say.

Your choice of the "exactly or totally" definition ignores an essential piece of context in Sabrblade's original statement, "based directly on it in some fashion". Saying successive Ironhide designs are "based 'exactly or totally' on it (G1 cartoon design) in some fashion" doesn't make sense, because "exactly or totally" and "in some fashion" contradict each other. If successive Ironhide designs were based "exactly or totally" on the G1 cartoon design, then there can only be one fashion, the complete recreation of the cartoon design. By saying "in some fashion", the original statement implies that successive Ironhide designs have elements based on and derived from the original cartoon design, but are not necessarily complete recreations. So, using the context of the original statement, the "in a direct line or manner; straight" definition of "directly" makes far more sense in reference to successive designs having elements derived "in some fashion" from the cartoon design.

This is, of course, how I (and seemingly others) interpreted the original statement. Sabrblade, feel free to correct me if my interpretation of your statement is incorrect.

And maybe, if someone's statement can be interpreted in multiple ways, clarification on what they meant should be asked for before you impose your own meaning on their words. Just a tip for future reference.

Tuned Agent wrote:
And, as others have already pointed out, the statements "based directly on it in some fashion" and "based almost exclusively on" mean two different things.

And maybe, if someone's statement can be interpreted in multiple ways, clarification on what they meant should be asked for before you impose your own meaning on their words. Just a tip for future reference.

No.

The definition I gave was correct. The original use (and your erroneous interpretation) was not. No personal imposition was conducted. It is simply a matter of correct language knowledge or use. The facts have been presented to you. It's not my problem that you cannot grasp them.

As for your views of "in (some) fashion":



This makes the use of "directly" oxymoronic, as one means "exactly", while the other means "in some unknown/indistinct/indirect way". Thus, it is akin to "definitely maybe" It is also similar to the idiom "In a fashion".

If the OP wanted to be succinct (and used similar lexis), they should have written something akin to "based largely upon" or "mainly fashioned upon".

My point stands.

Why are you guys still arguing about this
Can we chill out and try to be a fun, safe, transformers community? We get the idea if you hate the sled or need it. I don't know when I get the notification if it's something I care about or your sled trauma, usually the later. I'm sure others as well would rather ignore your silly stress over this.

Till-all-R1 wrote:To be honest I don't nor have I ever cared for that G1 TOY look for Ironhide/Ratchet and is the main reason why I never bought them as a kid...

Is the above what you meant to write?

Anyway, yes, the original toy's robot mode was rather awful (but then again, several of the original G1 toys weren't exactly lookers either). I also like the look of this figure, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't like to have the DEFINITIVE version of it, combining positive design elements of both the G1 toy and cartoon designs.