The Energon Pub

News Credits: 42 · by **Psychout** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:54 am

Agreed, what would need changing about them?

So, whats being suggested; if i have understood correctly...

1) You nominate a combiner team 'leader' within your minions plus a few others as 'limbs'. Their combined XP determines the stats the gestalt entity can have.

2) You then have a choice;
Send them all in to individual battles at their respective levels like normal.
Or
Combine them all before entering the mission and the resulting Gestalt gets to go into a higher level battle as an Actionmaster counting as a single TF. XP is then shared between all the limbs with the lions share going to the leader.

Positives:
Higher XP payout capability
Ability to battle those normally well out of your league
6 of your team gain xp from the one mission, however minimal it may be.
These threads will cease to pop up once every few months

Negatives:
CR costs will be massive on a shutout.
When it gets 'stasis locked' the entire gestalt is out of the mission so no individual limbs running around.

As a footnote, would all 5/6 members stay listed as 'in a mission' in the registry, or would the combined result only count as 1 minion (the components are hidden)?
If the former, then it would take almost all of your available slots so the rewards would need to reflect that handicap.

Have I interpreted that right?

by **Elcor** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:45 am

You've got it right, Psychout.

But what I suggested was that you don't send your gestalt in a battle - you send one of his components and wait for the merge to occur, if at all. After that, a split can occur too.

News Credits: 42 · by **Psychout** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:11 am

Elcor wrote:You've got it right, Psychout.

But what I suggested was that you don't send your gestalt in a battle - you send one of his components and wait for the merge to occur, if at all. After that, a split can occur too.

Surely it would be more simple to just combine them before you send them into battle and count it as one warrior, its gets around having to mess about with combining and seperating in mid-mission, and the logs wont be so convoluted.

Either way, i like it.

News Credits: 1 · by **Redimus** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:32 am

Psychout wrote:Agreed, what would need changing about them?

So, whats being suggested; if i have understood correctly...

1) You nominate a combiner team 'leader' within your minions plus a few others as 'limbs'. Their combined XP determines the stats the gestalt entity can have.

2) You then have a choice;
Send them all in to individual battles at their respective levels like normal.
Or
Combine them all before entering the mission and the resulting Gestalt gets to go into a higher level battle as an Actionmaster counting as a single TF. XP is then shared between all the limbs with the lions share going to the leader.

Positives:
Higher XP payout capability
Ability to battle those normally well out of your league
6 of your team gain xp from the one mission, however minimal it may be.
These threads will cease to pop up once every few months

Negatives:
CR costs will be massive on a shutout.
When it gets 'stasis locked' the entire gestalt is out of the mission so no individual limbs running around.

As a footnote, would all 5/6 members stay listed as 'in a mission' in the registry, or would the combined result only count as 1 minion (the components are hidden)?
If the former, then it would take almost all of your available slots so the rewards would need to reflect that handicap.

Have I interpreted that right?

That was pretty much what I was sujesting yes.
Elcor was sugesting something slightly different. He sugested that you enter one tf in a missions as normal, and as long as you have the other members of the gsetalt team ACTIVE in your registery, the one in the mission MIGHT be able to use his gestalt combine tactic.

I cant see this method working frankly.

News Credits: 42 · by **Psychout** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:02 am

Redimus wrote:That was pretty much what I was sujesting yes.
Elcor was sugesting something slightly different. He sugested that you enter one tf in a missions as normal, and as long as you have the other members of the gsetalt team ACTIVE in your registery, the one in the mission MIGHT be able to use his gestalt combine tactic.

I cant see this method working frankly.

I agree there tbh, as it relies on you not using any of your other minions and just hoping they are required.

Its why I suggested the idea of combing them before the mission, it gives them a chance at some good xp and a chance for us low/mid levels to battle alongside the bigger names like Burn etc on a more even playing field. If it was time limited (can combine once every 8 hours or so?) then it wouldnt become too regular an occourance either.

Has this type of idea been discussed before in the dim and distant past? It not like any suggestion ive seen previously.

News Credits: 1 · by **Redimus** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:58 pm

Psychout wrote:
Redimus wrote:That was pretty much what I was sujesting yes.
Elcor was sugesting something slightly different. He sugested that you enter one tf in a missions as normal, and as long as you have the other members of the gsetalt team ACTIVE in your registery, the one in the mission MIGHT be able to use his gestalt combine tactic.

I cant see this method working frankly.

I agree there tbh, as it relies on you not using any of your other minions and just hoping they are required.

Its why I suggested the idea of combing them before the mission, it gives them a chance at some good xp and a chance for us low/mid levels to battle alongside the bigger names like Burn etc on a more even playing field. If it was time limited (can combine once every 8 hours or so?) then it wouldnt become too regular an occourance either.

Has this type of idea been discussed before in the dim and distant past? It not like any suggestion ive seen previously.

I dont see any need to limit how often you can combine to be honest. For a start, having all 5 ready at the same time, AND having the free slots to use, isnt gonna be the easiest to achive after a couple of hours of play. I'd probably still send em in individually unless the chance to combine them occoured. Also the way I sugested it, you'd need to spend xp on the gestalt tactic, which takes up xp that could be used for the individual tf, which is a fairer penalty than "you've spent all this, now wait most of the day before you can use him again!".

News Credits: 2 · by **Ninjaburn** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:40 am

Ok, 'fixed' wasn't the right term, what I meant was until we ADJUST how the missions are put together, it would be very hard to get a proper group of combiners put in. IE allow more than one TF from your own team, have special 'combiner' missions, etc etc.

Frankly, I don't think its gonna happen real often to allow combiners to form, unless we allow two-TF combiners, a la Optimus and Ultra Mag in the newer series.

News Credits: 42 · by **Psychout** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:11 am

Isnt that what we were just discussing?

If you can combine 5 level 3's in the registry page when activating them and they gain 2 levels (fig.) but now count as 1 bot, then there would be no need for special mission to be written at all, they just enter a level 5 mission as an action master instead.

And I have to say that im against 'Powerlinking' in any form.
Unless its Arcee 'powerlinking' Elita 1, but im sure thats not what you meant...

by **Elcor** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:43 am

In canon series there were several kinds of gestalts:
6-member gestalts: Devastator, Liokaiser, Dinoking, Raiden, etc.
5-member gestalts: Computron, Superion, Menasor, Bruticus etc.
3-member gestalts: Frankly, all I can remember is Road Ceasar.
2-member gestalts, if Star Saber powerlinking with Victory Leo or Optimus Prime with Apex Bomber can be called gestalts at all.

What do you say? How many members we need in gestalts in V2?
Vote for your answer:

1)Stick to the canon. 3,5,6. (+1)
2)Make it simple. 6 and nothing else
3)5 and 6 both works for me.
4)Any number.

by **Thanatos Prime** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:53 pm

Crash wrote:I've put a good ten minutes of thought into this, and I think I've come up with an easy solution. And don't mind the condescending tone, I spent the last seven hours in the presence of snotty children.

Now...let's say, for example, you may spend X amount of Energon to gain a Gestalt Slot. You name this slot the same way you'd name a character, you assign it a gestalt image, you use the custom colors, etc. For all intents and purposes, this gestalt, whom we shall henceforth call Bob, is his or her own character.

But wait, Bob won't activate. How come? Well, Jimmy, Bob needs at least two characters to act as components! So, you hop on over to the Gestalt Character Designation Area, which will look and act nigh-identically to the armor area (as it is the best system for this kind of thing, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it). You select a character, and pay to have him or her marked as being part of Bob. Bob gets a bonus to his EXP that is equal to the character's EXP. Do this up to five times, incurring the same cost each time, until you've made Bob as powerful as you want him.

Now, head to the Registry, and activate Bob. What's this? Each Gestalt Component's status has changed to 'Gestalt Mode' and can't be made Active! That means that they're all temporarily incapacitated! Jumpin'-Pie-Yimminy, Bob better win, or you're gonna have to kill that sonofa- oh, uh, sorry. Lost my composure for a second, there.

So, what do you do with Bob? Why, use all that EXP and give him stat points, of course! Once a character's been made a part of Bob, he can't be taken off unless you reset Bob, which will tear the Gestalt Component marker off of all your characters who have it. I know that's expensive. That's the point of doing it, to make it as precious to you as armor.

Now, when Bob fights, he doesn't get any more EXP than any other character. This is then divided up among your gestalt characters, with any excess (decimal points and such) rounded down, for simplicity's sake.

I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, "Criminy, man, I won't get anything!" Well, as funny as that would be, it's not true. Bob's stats determine his level, so he's going to be of significantly higher level than any of your other characters. This will let him fight in higher level Missions, and thus earn more EXP than any other character you have. Once divided, though, it'll probably come out to a bit less than you'd get if your characters merely picked on enemies their own size. So, why do it? The obvious reason is that it would be a time-saving method, since you'll only have to squeeze into a single fight instead of, say, five.

Well, that's my two cents on the issue.

I really like this idea.

by **Knight Hawk** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:16 pm

I like the idea of combining before entering the mission however I find one fatal flaw. Shouldn't a Level 5 Gestalt have a distinct advantage against a level 5 bot? I mean thats like pitting Devastator vs. Ironhide and saying there is and equal chance Ironhide could beat Devastator. The odds would almost surely be in Dev's corner, right? But however if there is a 5 on 5 mission and 5 bots have to combine to form a Gestalt then the odds even out quit a bit as Devestator vs. Optimus, Ironhide, Prowl, Bumblebee, and Jetfire is a heck of a lot more even. This isn't an argument for having all five bots on a team being able to join a mission (but it could be) but there needs to be something altering a gestalts influence in battle instead of it being 50/50 odds shouldn't it be like 75/25 or 70/30 etc....

by **Elcor** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:05 pm

Knight Hawk wrote:I like the idea of combining before entering the mission however I find one fatal flaw.

Exactly.
That's one more point in favour of my idea, where you field a single character of level applicable into mission, then wait for gestalt merge to happen. And the resulting gestalt should be something to be reckoned with, not just a high-level Transformer which is a combination of low-levels.

by **Tammuz** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:35 pm

this might be a tad on the strange side but what if rather than have the gestalt entity formed from one team, have it formed by members of different teams, not randomely(as Glyph's photoshops suggest) but by joint venture?

say me, Dynamax, and Soundwave all agree to create a Gestalt entity between us, each of us nominate one of our cons to be part of this gestalt, and if all three of them are in a mission together(other than really screwing up Burn's performance) would form the gestalt?

by **Riot Riverman** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:36 am

i know i'm gona get it if i ask but i'll ask anyway.
what is a gsetalt?

News Credits: 402 · by **Mkall** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:51 am

Mecha the Lord Of War wrote:i know i'm gona get it if i ask but i'll ask anyway.
what is a gsetalt?

A gestalt is where several smaller mechs combine to form a giant super-mech.

Superion, Devastator, and Bruticus are examples

News Credits: 3 · by **Archanubis** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:55 am

Mkall wrote:
Mecha the Lord Of War wrote:i know i'm gona get it if i ask but i'll ask anyway.
what is a gsetalt?

A gestalt is where several smaller mechs combine to form a giant super-mech.

Superion, Devastator, and Bruticus are examples

Also known as "combiners," which may be more familiar.

News Credits: 42 · by **Psychout** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:04 pm

Thunderscream wrote:
Mkall wrote:
Mecha the Lord Of War wrote:i know i'm gona get it if i ask but i'll ask anyway.
what is a gsetalt?

A gestalt is where several smaller mechs combine to form a giant super-mech.

Superion, Devastator, and Bruticus are examples

Also known as "combiners," which may be more familiar.

Dictionary.com

by **Marcus Rush** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:53 pm

Thunderscream wrote:
Mkall wrote:
Mecha the Lord Of War wrote:i know i'm gona get it if i ask but i'll ask anyway.
what is a gsetalt?

A gestalt is where several smaller mechs combine to form a giant super-mech.

Superion, Devastator, and Bruticus are examples

Also known as "combiners," which may be more familiar.

Thats perhaps the barest of definitions for the actual Transformer Technology. Though Combiners are a more broad term that envelops Powerlinking, Micromaster partners and the like. Gestalts for the most part are the Transformer's Atombomb, for lack of a better term. A few moderately strengthed transformers merge their unique abilities and strengths into a giant robotic form which is much more powerful than the sum of its parts and thus has its own personality. Five minds become one big wrecking crew, except the Technobots because Computron is too slow to do any wrecking.

In the HMW sense its the holy grail sought by literally thousands of players. With the restriction of having one mech per team in a mission it has been dubbed before as highly impractical and nearly impossible, however thats not exactly true anymore. Some theories that abound could have it set up as each team gets a special number of tags or identifiers. These tags would lable the pieces as either a torso component or a limb component, leg or arm. Thus when these characters are tossed into battle, and the right conditions are met, saying they find four other transformers on their side, a torso, and three more limbs, and they have the relative same combination level and experience, they can combine to form a predetermined gestalt named after the Torso's owner. Experience earned would be divided equally among the parts with perhaps a small bonus and the team members go their seperate ways till the next battle.

by **Riot Riverman** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:55 pm

oh i get it! kinda like when prime and wing saber combine to make sonic wing mode from transformers cybertron or even more so like the dinobots from G1 right?

by **Marcus Rush** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:36 pm

Mecha the Lord Of War wrote:oh i get it! kinda like when prime and wing saber combine to make sonic wing mode from transformers cybertron or even more so like the dinobots from G1 right?

Eh not exactly, first off the Dinobots never combined, their designs were never for that purpose. Indeed they were built to be more or less enforcers and front line troopers capable of taking out any decepticon force by themselves. As far as the Prime/Wingsaber thing went, well thats combination not exactly Gestalt Combination. When those two combined their forms all they did was merged their energy turning a rather weak Optimus into something the equivilent of a G1 Ultra Magnus in terms of strength. Gestalts take between four and six individuals and literally merge everything into a single robot, from strengths to weaknesses to mental status. Hell even their own hatred for one another can be taken into the personality of the Gestalt Warrior ala Menasor. Overall they turn multiple personalities into one personality, where as the combination you discribed is more of a cheap excuse of half transforming and rather poor design of weapontry.

News Credits: 34 · by **Glyph** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:36 pm

Mecha the Lord Of War wrote:oh i get it! kinda like when prime and wing saber combine to make sonic wing mode from transformers cybertron or even more so like the dinobots from G1 right?

Nearly. The G1 Dinobots didn't combine, by the way, though there are a few bits of fanart and an unofficial mini-comic which show a hypothetical Dinobot gestalt.

There are two main strands of TF combination technology: gestalts and power-ups. The original G1 concept was five or six individual Transformers which combined to make a single super-robot - the first version being the Constructicons, who were six similarly-sized robots, and afterwards superseded by the 'Special Teams' consisting of one larger 'team leader' who formed the torso and four smaller TFs who each formed a limb and were interchangeable.

Although the toys were labelled 'Combiners' at the time, the fandom roughly settled on the term 'gestalts' because the super-robot had a single mind formed from the merging of all the individuals who formed it. This is also why the super-robot had its own name and (usually) a bio of some kind. Hence six individual Constructicons (Scrapper, Mixmaster, Long Haul, Bonecrusher, Hook and Scavenger) formed the 'gestalt' robot Devastator; five Protectobots (team leader Hotspot plus Blades, Groove, First Aid and Streetwise) formed the 'gestalt' robot Defensor.

By contrast, almost every version of combining done since then has been of the 'power-up' variety. Mini-Cons in Armada were direct and obvious power-ups for the robot they were combined with; the Energon Powerlinx gimmick was less obvious since the two robots were usually the same size, but the combined form was referred to as 'Powerlinx [top robot's name]' AFAIK. It wasn't a separate character in its own right, as the G1 gestalts were, but a powered-up form of the same base character. Similarly, when Cybertron Optimus (Galaxy Convoy) and Wing Saber (Sonic Bomber) combine, the result is a powered-up Optimus in Sonic Wing mode (= Sonic Convoy) rather than a separate character.

There are one or two oddball exceptions to this - the G1 Duocons being the prime example - but generally combination in the TF multiverse fits into one or other of the two categories.

For reference, both are slated to eventually make an appearance in HMW. Powerlinx-style combination will probably come first, as it's a lot easier to implement, but G1-style gestalts are considered by many players to be the 'Holy Grail' of HMW.

--EDIT--
Yah, so AS got in there first, but I was more thorough.

News Credits: 3 · by **Archanubis** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:39 pm

Damn, beaten to the punch. Oh well, might as well leave it to the experts.

Edit:

Alpha Strike wrote:Gestalts take between four and six individuals and literally merge everything into a single robot, from strengths to weaknesses to mental status.

It can go as low as three if you include the Beast Wars era Magnaboss and Tripredacus into the equation.

Edit #2
And BTW, welcome back, Glyph. Hope you're feeling better (at least until you came back here

)

by **Marcus Rush** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:01 pm

curse you and your thuroughity of posting...

I shall have my REVENGE!!!!!! :grin:

by **Marcus Rush** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:31 pm

Thunderscream wrote:Damn, beaten to the punch. Oh well, might as well leave it to the experts.

Edit:
Alpha Strike wrote:Gestalts take between four and six individuals and literally merge everything into a single robot, from strengths to weaknesses to mental status.

It can go as low as three if you include the Beast Wars era Magnaboss and Tripredacus into the equation.

Edit #2
And BTW, welcome back, Glyph. Hope you're feeling better (at least until you came back here )

There was also Rapid Run from RiD so yeah they are considered gestalts to an extent, they had their own unique personalities though they didn't show them as much as the Generation 1 combiners did.

News Credits: 226 · by **Burn** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:05 pm

Combiner cassettes also had a unique personality for their combined mode didn't they?

Thus making it as low as two ...

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