IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby ScottyP » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:00 pm

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Using an established name and character archetype to expand representation across a variety of races, genders, ethnicities, ages, and more is just fine. Representation matters. In this context, Leoric, like Matt Trakker before him in the now concluded IDW MASK run, is one of the few bright spots in an otherwise not so great series.

I like it when even crazy scifi/fantasy comics can reflect some of the real world, and the real world is diverse. Some people have the same names and look completely different. Sometimes Optimus Prime is an oil tanker or crocodile, but the appearance didn't really change who he was in those instances.

I'm glad this comic is ending though. At any rate it will mean this thread dies on the vine within a few weeks' time.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby Burn » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:09 pm

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ScottyP wrote:At any rate it will mean this thread dies on the vine within a few weeks' time.

Deep down you know it'll be like that "Alpha Bravo Friend/Foe?" thread that Va'al likes to keep bumping to remind people of how much of a horrible person he is. Image
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby ScottyP » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:19 pm

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Burn wrote:
ScottyP wrote:At any rate it will mean this thread dies on the vine within a few weeks' time.

Deep down you know it'll be like that "Alpha Bravo Friend/Foe?" thread that Va'al likes to keep bumping to remind people of how much of a horrible person he is. Image
Well there will be the trade paperback stuff in a couple months. Then, when I think it's really dead, in four or five years when it's released in the Transformers IDW Collection Phase F Volume It, this will be bumped like a vast undead predatory bird ready to remind me of its former "glory"
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby Burn » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:26 pm

Motto: "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings to randomly click things in the Admin Panel to see what it breaks."
ScottyP wrote:
Burn wrote:
ScottyP wrote:At any rate it will mean this thread dies on the vine within a few weeks' time.

Deep down you know it'll be like that "Alpha Bravo Friend/Foe?" thread that Va'al likes to keep bumping to remind people of how much of a horrible person he is. Image
Well there will be the trade paperback stuff in a couple months. Then, when I think it's really dead, in four or five years when it's released in the Transformers IDW Collection Phase F Volume It, this will be bumped like a vast undead predatory bird ready to remind me of its former "glory"

I could make it disappear to places where I'm sure even Va'al doesn't have access ... :WHISTLE:
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby primalxconvoy » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:30 pm

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I think in Visionaries, both Cryotek and Leoric's ethnicity was changed. Cryotek, being the old fuddy-duddy he is, didn't like that.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:30 pm

Burn wrote:I could make it disappear to places where I'm sure even Va'al doesn't have access ... :WHISTLE:



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Post-Review, Good sir :POPCORN:
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby primalxconvoy » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:46 pm

Motto: "私はルールに違反している"
ScottyP wrote:Using an established name and character archetype to expand representation across a variety of races, genders, ethnicities, ages, and more is just fine. Representation matters. In this context, Leoric, like Matt Trakker before him in the now concluded IDW MASK run, is one of the few bright spots in an otherwise not so great series.

I like it when even crazy scifi/fantasy comics can reflect some of the real world, and the real world is diverse. Some people have the same names and look completely different. Sometimes Optimus Prime is an oil tanker or crocodile, but the appearance didn't really change who he was in those instances.

I'm glad this comic is ending though. At any rate it will mean this thread dies on the vine within a few weeks' time.


I agree with representation. However, the manner in which ANY change, for whatever motivation, or reason, is important, for me, with established franchises.

As others have said, it would seem that visual representations of characters are perhaps the most important, and changed to this would need more explanation. The degree of that change is, I'm sure, subjective, but ethnicity and gender seem rather large ones.

With Transformers, giving a different alt-mode, or aesthetic (to a transforming robot), seem less of a change than by changing the ethnicity of human (especially as no in-universe reason was given for this change). It would also seem that the change to the armour and lack of totems were also significant changes that irked fans of the originals, too.

Like I've stated before, there are plenty of reasons to change an existing character (the franchise often features change, like Doctor Who, James Bond, Transformers, real-like issues, such as bankable or capital actors,etc). However, there are other ways to include change too, such as changing the roles of existing characters, adding explanations for changes (a new character with the same name, alternate universes, etc), creating new characters, etc.

Like I've stated before, I'm very much in favour of inclusion, but I don't want history to be rewritten, either.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby ZeroWolf » Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:09 pm

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To be fair this was never stated to be the old visionaries the same as idw TF was never said to be the g1 of the toon. So they wouldn't need to give a reason for any change. As I'm sure I said elsewhere in this thread, they saw a chance to revamp visionaries so they took it. The old designs clearly didn't work out too well, as it would have been more popular and lasted longer. If it had a massive cult following then it would have made a comeback not long after the first couple of TF films proved their was money to be made in the past toyline. Will these designs last till they are revived once more? Maybe, maybe not as it depends on what the world at large think of them. In my opinion though, these are vastly superior and I'll think of these before the old look. This is the books only strength. Maybe I'll like the next look they'll try, but let's see what happens with the hasbroverse first :-?
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby primalxconvoy » Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:32 pm

Motto: "私はルールに違反している"
However, they've shoehorned them into a Transformers comic and universe, where, by and large, the TFs look significantly like their original G1 selves. THAT'S why people like we're unhappy. If Visionaries was a separate comic, in its own universe, that would have been better than what we had. I still wouldn't have bought Visionaries, as the changes were not good, IMO.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby ZeroWolf » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:27 pm

Motto: "My past no longer binds my future..."
Weapon: Battle Blades
Actually the designs of the characters has shifted depending on the artist and on what toys were out at the time aka why starscream went through a few bodies and why jihaxus ended up in his starscream redeco body in dark cybertron. Also it seems a tenourous connection to me to assume they would be old designs that few people cared about. Besides as I said, this is clearly not supposed to be the old universe, this is to visionaries what amarda/energon/cybertron is to g1. Just hope that if the series gets another shot they try a new look or take the original designs and make it look like they made a detour to the game of thrones universe on the way to the page. Of all the things at wrong with this series, the designs aren't one of them. The fact they got paired up with Transformers in the first place is a good place to start.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby primalxconvoy » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:33 pm

Motto: "私はルールに違反している"
However, Armada WAS a separate universe. I actually enjoyed it because of that, and it then made sense to have it crossover with (a) G1 universe, in the DW comics. If IDW had created more classic Visionaries in the stable, or main TF universe, created an alternate Visionaries' universe and THEN had it crossover, then I'd be more interested.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby Lore Keeper » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:05 pm

Transcendent30 wrote:NOT Visionaries. NOT Transformers. Just a big bunch of SJW politics porn. Leoric is WHITE not Black. Sorry. Same for Matt Trakker of MASK for that matter. IDW sucks Satan's balls in hell, and all you millennial scummers who don't agree, suck along with them.

Ah yes, I remember my first time eating bath salts. Don't worry man. You'll feel better in the morning after it wears off. ;)
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby primalxconvoy » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:26 pm

Motto: "私はルールに違反している"
Lore Keeper wrote:
Transcendent30 wrote:NOT Visionaries. NOT Transformers. Just a big bunch of SJW politics porn. Leoric is WHITE not Black. Sorry. Same for Matt Trakker of MASK for that matter. IDW sucks Satan's balls in hell, and all you millennial scummers who don't agree, suck along with them.

Ah yes, I remember my first time eating bath salts. Don't worry man. You'll feel better in the morning after it wears off. ;)


We have a winner!
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby Burn » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:34 pm

Motto: "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings to randomly click things in the Admin Panel to see what it breaks."
primalxconvoy wrote:
Lore Keeper wrote:
Transcendent30 wrote:NOT Visionaries. NOT Transformers. Just a big bunch of SJW politics porn. Leoric is WHITE not Black. Sorry. Same for Matt Trakker of MASK for that matter. IDW sucks Satan's balls in hell, and all you millennial scummers who don't agree, suck along with them.

Ah yes, I remember my first time eating bath salts. Don't worry man. You'll feel better in the morning after it wears off. ;)


We have a winner!

No, what we have is someone getting attention they don't deserve.

Move on people.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby ZeroWolf » Tue May 01, 2018 2:47 am

Motto: "My past no longer binds my future..."
Weapon: Battle Blades
primalxconvoy wrote:However, Armada WAS a separate universe. I actually enjoyed it because of that, and it then made sense to have it crossover with (a) G1 universe, in the DW comics. If IDW had created more classic Visionaries in the stable, or main TF universe, created an alternate Visionaries' universe and THEN had it crossover, then I'd be more interested.


I don't understand, are you proposing that just because the tfs look a little like their original selves then the visionaries should as well? What if they looked the same but behaved completely different? Would that have been fine?

These are alternative visionaries, just the same as these are alternative g1 esq transformers with other universes thrown in like Tankor from beast machines or knock out from prime. These are not replacing the originals any more then idw is replacing sunbow toon, or that the bay movies replaced the toon.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby primalxconvoy » Tue May 01, 2018 3:40 am

Motto: "私はルールに違反している"
Yes. I think the choice to use vastly different-looking Visionaries and MASK characters, in a story featuring other characters that look closer to their original appearance is jarring.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby ZeroWolf » Tue May 01, 2018 6:35 am

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Any more jarring to see beast machines characters cozying up to Prime characters with new ones thrown into the mix who are original? It just seems to me to be valid petty thing to call the series out on when there are much bigoer problems. It's like your house is falling apart around you but you're wotried because there is a slight draft coming through. I guess it's one of those things that we'll have to agree to disagree though, I mean what's this series going to matter post september anyway?
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby primalxconvoy » Tue May 01, 2018 6:45 am

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I also didn't like it that they mixed up the characters for no reason, either, but at least they looked like the characters they were meant to be.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Tue May 01, 2018 7:37 am

I didn't like the absence of the primary villain. Darkstorm leads the Darkling Lords. Virulina was third tier if that.

It would be like ousting Megatron for Reflector...
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby ZeroWolf » Tue May 01, 2018 8:34 am

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Reflector wishes he was third tier. Maybe the writer thought that a female badguy would be more interesting.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Tue May 01, 2018 8:40 am

ZeroWolf wrote:Reflector wishes he was third tier. Maybe the writer thought that a female badguy would be more interesting.



Other than the fact the former weather woman (if memory serves) was one of the least interesting characters in the entire show. Whilst also clearly being Token. Was she interesting in this?

In contrast Darkstorm was the most interesting villain in the show. Likewise his powerset was among the best in the entire series.


Also, Reflector: Emperor of Destruction... It's coming! :lol:
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby Coptur » Tue May 01, 2018 9:25 am

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:
ZeroWolf wrote:Reflector wishes he was third tier. Maybe the writer thought that a female badguy would be more interesting.



Other than the fact the former weather woman (if memory serves) was one of the least interesting characters in the entire show. Whilst also clearly being Token. Was she interesting in this?

In contrast Darkstorm was the most interesting villain in the show. Likewise his powerset was among the best in the entire series.


Also, Reflector: Emperor of Destruction... It's coming! :lol:


She was either Model or a weather presenter.

I agree Darkstorm is by far the most interesting Darkling Lord next to Reekon both have been hugely under used in this series...well the former being dead hasn't helped. this series has been a big let down and poorly managed from the get go.

Hey I love Reflector needed more from him across the 30+ years

- Not in G1 Marvel (no those random bots in issue 4 (?) are not Reflector no amount of poor retconning will convince me.
- Character was to be forgotten from season 2 G1 toon
- no mass retail toy....well except the tiny gun with Shrapnel
- killing off in IDW twice
- edited out of Animated
- killed off in DW (??)

we need more Reflector love :michaelbay:
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby ZeroWolf » Tue May 01, 2018 11:08 am

Motto: "My past no longer binds my future..."
Weapon: Battle Blades
There was that reflector botcon toy from the last convention...that hasbro let funpub have because they didn't want it...huh never realised how much reflector had been given the short end of the stick.

As I said before, obviously the writer thought she was interesting or maybe she thought the series needed a female badguy guy, I mean you going to use a token girl, why not make her the boss? The writer though obviously had her reasons (which we can merely speculate) and her editors agreed and hasbro agreed, which shows what they think of visionaries really. I mean Rom and micronaughts were done better. Though I guess Rom was lucky that the then editor loved him so made sure he was treated with care
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Tue May 01, 2018 1:42 pm

What it comes down to is unless a Licensed property has a huge and/or cult following, it is essentially a higher profile platform for a given writer to tell a story they want to make.

No one out there says Visionaries was "their childhood" in the way those would of Transformers, He-Man, TMNT, Thundercats etc Even Rom had a decade or two of relative success within Marvel Comics. That afforded a lot of liberties to be taken using the cache of the name "Visionaries". This is the result.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby primalxconvoy » Tue May 01, 2018 2:28 pm

Motto: "私はルールに違反している"
Visionaries was still PART of my childhood. That's why they were used here; because it was an established franchise. If IDW wants to go in a completely new direction, then fine; create a new franchise. If it wants to "cash in" on nostalgia, then do that, too.

Just don't make MASK and Visionaries like this.
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