IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby ZeroWolf » Tue May 08, 2018 11:07 am

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Maybe they are writing it to tell a story about the characters? Nothing ventured, nothing gained after all. Hasbro don't seem to mind them not transforming much, and I doubt that was one of the reasons why idw decided to reset ;-) especially since adding more transformations in could have easily happened at the editoral level.

End of the day it's not bothered me at all. I've seen them use the alt modes and it was fine.

Saying that, i'd be surprised if furman wrote any of his stuff with transformations in mind, plot would have definitely came first.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Tue May 08, 2018 11:18 am

But the characters are their altmodes. It's literally their defining visual trait. In most continuities, Prime/Ultra Magnus/Motormaster are trucks, Dinobots are Techno-dinosaurs etc etc You can't ignore an association so blatant and synonymous without betraying the integrating of the series you are writing for. EG TMNT without them being Turtles, Visionaries without Magic Totems and Staffs

You could argue this is related to the reasons for the reset, given it's symptomatic of a divergence from the source material not enough fans were onboard with? In equal measure, why this reimaging of Visionaries failed to garner interest.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby Rodimus Knight » Tue May 08, 2018 11:24 am

ScottyP wrote:The only time it bugs me is when characters that could drive or fly run towards their destination instead. I think the answer to the rest is just authors focusing on making a good story first. I could argue the point further but I think it's probably futile.


I would like this argument more, if you know, the stories were good.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby ZeroWolf » Tue May 08, 2018 11:44 am

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AllNewSuperRobot wrote:But the characters are their altmodes. It's literally their defining visual trait. In most continuities, Prime/Ultra Magnus/Motormaster are trucks, Dinobots are Techno-dinosaurs etc etc You can't ignore an association so blatant and synonymous without betraying the integrating of the series you are writing for. EG TMNT without them being Turtles, Visionaries without Magic Totems and Staffs

You could argue this is related to the reasons for the reset, given it's symptomatic of a divergence from the source material not enough fans were onboard with? In equal measure, why this reimaging of Visionaries failed to garner interest.

The remaking of visionaries failed on a story level and for a small number of people, on a visual level. I loved the new look, especially leoric. Also I don't care about the Totems as it was a silly gimmick anyway.

End of the day, we should want these characters to be more than these gimmicks. If you're happy with that then I guess that's your prerogative but it's not mine.

RodimusKnight@ actually what Scotty said was correct. The fact is that the writers were trying to do the best story they could do. It was up to us as readers to determine if they succeeded or not. Even then it's opinions vs opinions. I liked the majority of idw output, that's my opinion. Others may agree and some certainly disagree but it's all subjective end of the day.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Tue May 08, 2018 2:00 pm

ZeroWolf wrote:End of the day, we should want these characters to be more than these gimmicks. If you're happy with that then I guess that's your prerogative but it's not mine.


If you are writing about Transformers that don't transform, you're not writing Transformers. The gimmick is their foundation it's what any writer worth their salt builds their vision upon.

Going back to an earlier example, if you're reading TMNT, wherein they aren't Turtles or Ninjas, you as the fan and/or reader deserve better. A more capable writer that understands what is required of a licensed series.

Visionaries, much like Transformers, take their very name from their gimmick. That is how central a concept it should be. Without the totems, this Versus series was and is just bad, Mad Max cosplay without merit or substance.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby ZeroWolf » Wed May 09, 2018 3:39 am

Motto: "My past no longer binds my future..."
Weapon: Battle Blades
Come on, we both know that the Totems wouldn't have saved this series. The flaws go much deeper than that. Also, the transformers do transform in the series, I thought it was the right amount (other people's opinions may vary). I don't want panels wasted because people think they need more shots of alt modes. If an alt mode scene is unnecessary then cut it. If they transform for the sake of it, cut it. Transformations should always serve the plot, to the point where if they interfere with it, drop them. I don't read Transformers just to see them transform, nor does it bother me if they don't. I read Transformers because I like the characters and want to see what's going on, in times of peace and (because we all know that the new continuity will be set either at the start of the war or during) in times of war.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby ScottyP » Wed May 09, 2018 7:20 am

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Rodimus Knight wrote:
ScottyP wrote:The only time it bugs me is when characters that could drive or fly run towards their destination instead. I think the answer to the rest is just authors focusing on making a good story first. I could argue the point further but I think it's probably futile.


I would like this argument more, if you know, the stories were good.
That's why I didn't really press it further, I think folks that like the stories just see a lack of super frequent transformations as a minor annoyance while those that don't use it to throw fuel on a hate-fire that I can't extinguish. Lots of folks are, for various reasons, apparently just done with this iteration of Transformers. That's fine. But I don't think "they don't transform enough" did that for anyone. I can't think of any comics iteration of Transformers that had the characters transforming back and forth constantly.

Anyway, I gotta start moving on and not responding when I see the folks pissing on the grave site for IDW's Transformers :)
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby ZeroWolf » Wed May 09, 2018 7:45 am

Motto: "My past no longer binds my future..."
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ScottyP wrote:
Rodimus Knight wrote:
ScottyP wrote:The only time it bugs me is when characters that could drive or fly run towards their destination instead. I think the answer to the rest is just authors focusing on making a good story first. I could argue the point further but I think it's probably futile.


I would like this argument more, if you know, the stories were good.
That's why I didn't really press it further, I think folks that like the stories just see a lack of super frequent transformations as a minor annoyance while those that don't use it to throw fuel on a hate-fire that I can't extinguish. Lots of folks are, for various reasons, apparently just done with this iteration of Transformers. That's fine. But I don't think "they don't transform enough" did that for anyone. I can't think of any comics iteration of Transformers that had the characters transforming back and forth constantly.

Anyway, I gotta start moving on and not responding when I see the folks pissing on the grave site for IDW's Transformers :)

I think I have to start doing that as well. Though I'm sure some of them will find things to complain about in the new idw era.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Wed May 09, 2018 8:01 am

Personally, I had no problem with IDWverse at all, until AHM. Then when I reached my limit with DoOP, I simply tapped out without complaint, as that achieves nothing. I look forward to seeing what the next Gen of writers does with TF, hopefully as refreshing as when IDW first began.

ZeroWolf wrote:Come on, we both know that the Totems wouldn't have saved this series. The flaws go much deeper than that.


No, of course not. But it would have shown an ounce of integrity. Clearly Hasbro didn't care about this beyond cashing in on a revival, nor did the writer.

Reimaginings "work" when people are at least familiar with the source material in the first place.

The lack of Totems, Medieval armour and appreciation for the time period the series was based around, show the writer had less understanding of what they were writing about than Michael Bay did with Transformers.
Instead, you get some half-baked nonsense, that could be anything apart from Visionaries, with the clearly ripped-off visual aesthetic of Fury Road.
I'm not saying there even would be someone else out there that would do Visionaries "justice", but if they have at least seen it before, their understanding would probably be more insightful.

ZeroWolf wrote: Also, the transformers do transform in the series, I thought it was the right amount (other people's opinions may vary). I don't want panels wasted because people think they need more shots of alt modes. If an alt mode scene is unnecessary then cut it. If they transform for the sake of it, cut it. Transformations should always serve the plot, to the point where if they interfere with it, drop them. I don't read Transformers just to see them transform, nor does it bother me if they don't. I read Transformers because I like the characters and want to see what's going on, in times of peace and (because we all know that the new continuity will be set either at the start of the war or during) in times of war.


Scene specific characters.

If you have an issue revolving around Grimlock and Shockwave, Clearly we all just want Talking Heads, expressing their feelings :P

Example 2: Kup is fleeing across a Cybertronian highway, trying to escape a rampaging Trypticon. So let's have him run on foot, occasionally falling over and taking breaks to wheeze, because he is sooo old >Insert Guffaws<

They are literal machines of War, altmodes should be front and centre in action sequences and the like. EG Prime's most impressive moment in The Movie? Plowing through the Decepticon ranks as a trukk.
This is what I am getting at. Being what they are, Transformers are capable in all media of extremely dynamic action and set pieces. Make the most of it! Don't just have punches and pew pews. Everyone else can already do that.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby ZeroWolf » Wed May 09, 2018 8:48 am

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You mean like megatron v prime was just punches and pew pews? I seem to recall immediately after running over some insecticons, Prime them transformed and shot his gun a lot. Megatron never transformed in his fight against prime once. Galvatron only transformed twice in the whole movie!

I think we may have exhausted all the there is to say about the visionaries at this junction. The aspects you like are ones that I find generic and a little bit he man esq (just a fair few years late) the aspects of this that I like you think disrespect what has come before. I must say though, the original line must have had an impact for you to care this much about it when most others just shrugged their shoulders.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Wed May 09, 2018 9:08 am

ZeroWolf wrote:I must say though, the original line must have had an impact for you to care this much about it when most others just shrugged their shoulders.



It didn't, oddly enough I cared more about the Totems and magical concepts behind Visionaries than the characters themselves. But, this was their chance to sell Visionaries to a new generation of fans, as something almost entirely new. They opted to cash-in on a bygone name with a bastardised remit. The end result was never in doubt.


You missed the point of my Movie example, so I'll leave that there.
Transformers interests me when it sells itself on it's own uniqueness. The themes you're interested in are explored and available everywhere, in everything and usually to better effect too. They safe and easy, pedestrian avenues for a writer to cover. It doesn't take much talent or effort to stick to the path of least resistance.

To me, IDWverse peaked with Last Stand of The Wreckers. That ticks every box on what a Transformers story can and should be. I don't see anything overtly generic in that. Whereas what I've read of MTMTE/LL and RiD, I can't not see it.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby ZeroWolf » Wed May 09, 2018 10:42 am

Motto: "My past no longer binds my future..."
Weapon: Battle Blades
You can't blame their thinking though, it's easy to see that they would go back to the drawing board when it came to resurrecting it. Also let's not forget that end of the day, unicron us coming after the actions of one of the visionaries. Though I'm a bit annoyed that more wasn't done to enhance that connection, and I would have to loved to see their reaction when face to face with oblivion. I have a new theory on unicron which I must post in the other thread...
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Wed May 09, 2018 12:03 pm

Surely it would have been easier just to ship the same thing again? The Sunbow episode in King Arthur's Court (the name escapes me), but with Visionaries, is such a no-brainer as to be the immediate mental image I had for this series when I first heard about it.
As we all know, Visionaries was not that big. It was no TMNT or Thundercats. They could easily have re-released 1987 Visionaries again in 2018, modernised the dialogue and few would have been any the wiser. That surely would have made money for even less effort :???:
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby ZeroWolf » Wed May 09, 2018 1:01 pm

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Weapon: Battle Blades
Well I'm guessing they wanted to avoid what they thought were the reasons it failed to break through. As for re-released, they should have just collected the old series (can't remember how long it ran for but I remember it was put as the backup strip in the g1 comics) and used that to gauge interest in a revival before they commissioned this. No need to change the dialogue at all. Or would it...wait...it would be another Rom situation wouldn't it, the old comics belongs to marvel so a deal would have to be struck to reprint it.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Wed May 09, 2018 1:04 pm

Interest definitely should have been gauged first. A one & done mini, existing in a vacuum, would have been a better alternative than this.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby ZeroWolf » Wed May 09, 2018 1:52 pm

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Weapon: Battle Blades
Yeah keep the tfs out of it at first
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby Big Grim » Thu May 10, 2018 8:55 am

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Man, I just bought and read all 5 issues. Why the hell did I do that to myself? This really was a disgrace. I liked Leoric's redesign but the rest of this steaming pile is worthless. Good grief.
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby Mixsound » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:31 pm

Motto: "Vaportrail: "GO GET 'EM, CRUSADE PRIME!""
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Vaportrail & Mixsound to Kup: "That's one heck of a piece of sterling brilliance. Amazing!

Little forces of Bot-tron, eh... even if there's such a thing... let's go to the staffing polls!"
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Re: IDW Transformers vs Visionaries Discussion Thread

Postby Mixsound » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:36 pm

Motto: "Vaportrail: "GO GET 'EM, CRUSADE PRIME!""
Weapon: Laser Pistol
Visionaries have two new recruits. An Female Visionary with the evil of a Wrathful Dragon. But there is a heroic male Visionary who has the power of the Falcon. I'd bet Visionaries may effect the Mini-Bots and the Mini-Cons quite formidably. Any Visionary.
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