The Energon Pub

And besides, subtitled anime releases are not intended to be for children. They are for the older fans who have not only the attention spans to watch many episodes another language subbed in English, but the drive to do so. There is no reason to rewrite anything deemed inappropriate for children when children are not a factor in this. If kids wind up watching them, then it's the fault of the parents or older people who show it to them, not the companies' fault.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Saying Anime series arent targeted at children is like saying Joe camel wasnt intended to peak kids interest in smokes.

Call it what you want, bottom line, its a cartoon with flashy colors and lots of action.Kids are ging to be interest.

Seriously? You seriously think that all anime are intended for children? You do know that there are adult anime too. Japan doesn't just focus on children's cartoons. Saying that they do is the equivalent of saying that all American cartoons (including South Park, Family Guy, robot Chicken, etc.) are also for children. Not every Japanese cartoon is a flashy action spectacle.

And besides, I was talking about subtitled anime DVD releases in America. The target audience for those are the "Ages 13 and Up" crowd. Kids want to watch dubs, not subs.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:And "kids" werent what I was even talkjing about anyway.

The fact is that there are some cases that have a "need" to re-write.

And you still haven't provided any examples to back this claim.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:What I'm saying is that its foolish to believe that the creators dont also have kidds in mind when they create these shows.

Sure they write these shows with older viewer as the main target, but they also hope and plan on grabbing the attention of younger viewers.

This basically like saying that the South Park writers do the same with their show as well, when they know very well what their making is not intended for small children. Same goes for all the Seinen and Josei genres anime.

Kodomo anime are for young children.
Shonen and Shojo anime are for older children and teenagers.
Seinen and Josei anime are for late teens and adults. It is THESE ones that aren't created with children in mind.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:did you misunderstand me when I said "lets not beat around the bush"???

I'm not going to waste my time, sercing the internet and my collection for examples of something I'm sure that you know full well happens in some animes.We both know these shows some times contain questionable materials

Which are ALWAYS kept intact in SUBTITLED releases. SUBS, not DUBS, are what's being discussed here. Dubs are an off topic subject. The market for subbed releases is NOT the same as the market for dubs.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:And I repeat, I'm saying its foolish to believe that the creators dont also have kidds in mind when they create these shows.Yes they write these shows with older viewer as the main target, but they also hope and plan on grabbing the attention of younger viewers

Even South Park, while not directly looking for kids for an audience have still drawn them in....and they were aware it would happen when they started production.

They still don't cater to the kid audiences, since they aren't the intended target. Kids getting interested is a bonus, but not the intent.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:and in some of those cases what we end up reading doesnt make sense to us, or seems out of place, doesnt seem to fit the situation or because it directly relates to some cultural idioms that most of us just dont have any knowledge of.

Again, that kind of thing can hurt the story.I would rather they make some changes so as to present a fully understandable story, then to feel lost over 1 single line

That's what Translator's Notes are for. You know, those brief little notes you sometimes see in subtitles when something they say is untranslatable or confusing in English. That is how these things are worked around without messing up the original intended message.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I dont think I implied it was their direct intent, just that they know full well that kids are going to jump on the wagon as well.

Even still, knowing that kids may catch wind of their product, they also know that it is the parents' responsibility to make sure that their kids don't watch what's inappropriate for them.

Not to mention that Japan has different standards than the West. What we deem as inappropriate may not be so much in Japan.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:and I find those little notes, when they are used, annoying and distracting.I would much better like it if they found and replaced it with a "similar" English idiom, but if thats not possible, drop the original dialog and come up with something that fits.

Well, in order to maintain the original meaning (which is one of the the goals of subtitles), sometimes it's just not doable. Thus calling for the need of Translator's Notes.

And yes, while these can be a bit distracting at times, the best executed ones are those that are as sparse and brief as possible, and avoid becoming a nuisance. Any that pop up "all the time" and have "a lot to say" are not being utilized in the best way possible.

The most professional subtitles I've seen have avoided using Translator's Notes as much as possible, while also adhering to the original meaning of the dialogue. Sometimes there are notes that appear, but their frequency is rare and their lengths are minuscule. And they prove to be not so much distracting as informative, giving me a better understanding of their culture instead of trying to cram ours into theirs.

Artistic integrity can be maintained without having to void out the Japanese culture.

And since this topic is, and has always been, about the Japanese G1 series, there is little, if any, cultural aspects that need to be rewritten to be understood by Westerners.

In fact, the Metrodome and Madman subs kept true to the original dialogue (barring some grammatical errors), yet I don't recall any complaints about those subs being "too Japanese".

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:thats a bit like saying car manufactures shouldn't design passenger side airbags that would save and not smoother a 2 foot tall person because they dont intend on short people sitting in the front seats of their cars.

The creator has a responsibility to every member of the audiance, regardless if they werent the primary target.

Do you see South Park sugar-coating anything because kids might stumble upon their show? Nope!

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:And sometimes, to make a better product(which is THE goal of any DVD release ),one that is easier to enjoy and assessable to all with versatile taste and expectations, changes sometimes need be made to the original meaning (which is one of the the goals of subtitles)

Not when the product on its own is ALREADY understandable to begin with. This topic has never veered from the JG1 Transformers cartoons, which are not so wildly foreign that none can understand them subbed in English. The DVDs released by Metrodome and Madman are proof of this.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I think the treatment of Arcee is the only example of a cultural issue that I wish they could write out.

Arcee getting a career change may have been stupid, but it is not something that is so Japanese that it can't be understood by Westerners. Anyone with eyes can tell that she is acting like a secretary.

Skyfire77 wrote:I've only ever seen translator's notes on fandubs, and those tend to flit off the screen too fast to be legible. You keep expecting importers to live up to some impossible standard you've come up with, but they don't.

I own all seven releases of the FUNimation Dragon Box DVD sets and am currently on the fourth one. These sets are officially licensed product and they DO use Translator's Notes. BUT, out of the many episodes I've watched thus far, I can only recall there ever being one or two instances where these notes appeared on screen, and they were no more than maybe two words long each. THIS is how to best use Translator's Notes: Very brief while still getting the message across, and so sparse that it's like they aren't even there.

Skyfire77 wrote:Hasbro and Shout want to sell this DVD to as many people as possible.If that means changing certain things to be more accessible to the average American, so be it. We go through this with the toys, I guess it needs to be said for the shows as well: Hasbro does not cater to the hard-core fan, they want sell as many units and to make as much money as possible; "Artistic integrity" can go hang.

Which, while ambitious, is not smart, considering how these WILL NOT appeal to the mass American audience, no matter how much they want it to, for the sole reason that they aren't in English. Kids won't want to watch them. Xenophobics won't want to watch them. Ethnocentric people won't want to watch them. If they wanted to market them to the widest audience possible, then they should have went the extra mile of freshly DUBBING them into English, but doing so was too cost ineffective. Ergo, the only peopled who will be willing to buy these, sit down, and watch them all from start to finish ARE the die hard fans.

Skyfire77 wrote:Buh? You mean other than the Transformers suddenly sporting different names,

New audiences who haven't seen G1 won't know who these guys are, and long time fans get to learn something new by seeing these characters from a different perspective.

Skyfire77 wrote:calling every blessed attack/action,

RiD did this. As did, to an extent, Armada, Energon, and Cybertron.

Plus, having watched all three series, it isn't as done as nearly often as it is in anime like, say, Pokemon or Digimon. Plenty of times do they just give unnamed attacks and techniques. Only if something extra special is happening do they announce their attacks.

Skyfire77 wrote:Zarak constantly lurking in the shadows,

And this relates to culture how?

Skyfire77 wrote:Arcee being the 'Bots' maid/secretary,

Sure, because someone being a secreatary is unheard of in the West.

Skyfire77 wrote:the whole "power of friendship beam" the 'Bot Headmasters had going on,

That was pretty tame compared to all the wacky Burning Justice going on in Cybertron.

Skyfire77 wrote:and any number of other tropes the average non-anime watching American has no idea about? Sure, nothing out of place there.... *eyeroll*

And everything you picked out were mere tiny nitpicks or random nonsense (Scorponok in shadow? Really?).

Skyfire77 wrote:Mainly 'cause there's probably no more than a few hundred copies in the US, all imported by hard-core fans who were just happy to have the series.

You act like the U.S. is the ONLY audience the Metrodome and Madman DVDs were sold in. What about their domestic markets in the UK and Australia? THAT is what I meant when I said that. What complaints were there from either of those two countries about their subs being "too Japanese". None!

Skyfire77 wrote:You're also not going to hear all that many complaints about the Shout! translations because no one cares.

No one cares, eh?

RhA wrote:Let's be realistic, it's awesome the sets can be watched by anyone who wants to now, but the target audience of these sets... Well, that would be us. And we like Goryu jus the way he is.

Skids wrote:Those subtitles (and some other edits I have read, like cutting out the recaps) sound ...well, kind of dreadful.

Some subtitle changes (placing "Autobots" and "Decepticons" in place of "Cybertrons" and "Destrons" respectively, the mild language edits) were to be expected, but the character name changes... eh, I would have left some of that alone. I just hope that when Masterforce is done, they really stick to the script (and don't do something stupid like calling Ginrai "Optimus Prime" despite the fact that we know the TOY as such in the USA). I can live with "Scrap" instead of "Crap", but cmon w/the dialogue mincing.

I hope that the hold-up in the big Japanese Collection set is to correct this sort of thing.

RhA wrote:Once again, these sets are aimed at the (already exsisting) fanbase. We know what the Breastforce is and we've already laughed at it.

Skids wrote:I wholly agree that the translators should really stay as true to the original dialogue as possible; that's all I ever ask of a subtitle. Fan-subbers did this pretty well (sometimes too-well, going above and beyond the need to explain some of the puns and so forth, and also retaining easily-translated words like "yatsu"), so why can't people who do this commercially/professionally?

In a dub, there's more leeway, because you can "write over" the script with something that makes more colloquial sense (and fits the window of the film you're dubbing over). In a subtitle, just stick to the script, please.

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:Translating from one language to another means there's gonna be some variations. No getting around that, but the translation should still be as close as possible to the source.

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:If I'm buying something, I wanna know damned well what they're saying. Especially subtitled material. And yes, I know there's gonna be some liberties due to syntax and grammar.

Three people right there. Not much but it's something.

Just because YOU don't care about what they say doesn't mean NO ONE will. If you really don't want to know what they're saying, then you might as well watch without the subtitles turned on at all so you don't have to know.

But for the rest of us who DO want to know what they're saying, we will continue to give our opinions and commentary as we have every right to. Just because these are official product does not mean that they deserve blind praise.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:are you suggesting that refusal to acknowledge responsibility, relieves the creator of that responsibility?

That was the argument made by the Tobacco growers.

I'm saying that just because kids may stumble on to something that they shouldn't doesn't mean that the creators of said product have to make such accommodations. There are thousands of adult programs on that children can and will unintentionally view if not careful, yet none of them get taken off the air because of careless kids. If the kids shouldn't be watching what's on, they should either know better or be taught to know better. Television is not and will never be 100% child-safe. And in the case of these three series, there is hardly any such questionable content to be found.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:As a matter of fact this topic did "veer" a bit away from the JG1 series, my first comment on the topic was on the subject of translating the language on a general field not just on this product.

and I have been (or at least have tried) staying to the topic at hand: The Headmasters, Masterforce, and Victory. That is what the focus is and that is the case I'm discussing.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Ohh, I'm not saying they need to make any accommodations at all, but at the same token they still have a responsibility to those that watch.

The simple solution is to simply not let kids watch what they shouldn't be watching. It can't be helped if they somehow get around this and happen upon something that's not for them. It's not the fault of the creators.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I understand that, but the first comment I replied gto was on the subject of the purpose of "subbing".......which was more of a general statement.

All the same, no kid's gonna wanna watch something this long that isn't in their native language.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

All the same, no kid's gonna wanna watch something this long that isn't in their native language.

I can see that[/quote]Then what's the problem if they won't wanna see it?

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

All the same, no kid's gonna wanna watch something this long that isn't in their native language.

I can see that

Then what's the problem if they won't wanna see it?

I was saying I agree with you on that point.

Okay then.

So, now, what's your stance on them unnecessarily changing the subtitle script to say what the characters aren't saying?

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Okay then.

So, now, what's your stance on them unnecessarily changing the subtitle script to say what the characters aren't saying?

Same as before, the idea that they should never make changes isint practical.If needed, they should be allowed to make changes.

Grammar and syntax changes, yes. Deliberate changes to force in fanwank and/or change logic to nonsense, no. It is the latter that's been done and what's wrong here.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Okay then.

So, now, what's your stance on them unnecessarily changing the subtitle script to say what the characters aren't saying?

Same as before, the idea that they should never make changes isint practical.If needed, they should be allowed to make changes.

Grammar and syntax changes, yes. Deliberate changes to force in fanwank and/or change logic to nonsense, no. It is the latter that's been done and what's wrong here.

Complete re-writes is it helps the story or if its something that just wouldnt translate well or at all should be allowed as well.

Name one thing they changed (aside from names, grammar, and syntax) that would not have worked in English.

Again, Metrodome and Madman have proven that there need not be this drastic amount of changes for them to work in English.