The Energon Pub

Dead Metal wrote:DBZ isn't made to sell toys, the toys and the merchandise are based on the show, which in itself is based on a very successful manga. The show came first, the toys where just an afterthought to make more money.
With Transformers it's the other way around, the shows are made to advertise toys and not to tell a story. If the makers of Headmasters had any kind of artistic integrity they wouldn't have made the shows in the first place, because they wouldn't want to degenerate their art form for something as low as advertising toys.

Nowadays, however, it is toyetic, as they were still making toys even long after the shows finished (and before Kai began). And when Kai goes, the toys will likely continue.

Sabrblade wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:DBZ isn't made to sell toys, the toys and the merchandise are based on the show, which in itself is based on a very successful manga. The show came first, the toys where just an afterthought to make more money.
With Transformers it's the other way around, the shows are made to advertise toys and not to tell a story. If the makers of Headmasters had any kind of artistic integrity they wouldn't have made the shows in the first place, because they wouldn't want to degenerate their art form for something as low as advertising toys.

Nowadays, however, it is toyetic, as they were still making toys even long after the shows finished (and before Kai began). And when Kai goes, the toys will likely continue.

So?
that does not diminish the fact that the show came first and that the toys are simply made as a way of cashing in on the popularity of the series, which is only over due to the fact that it'S creator is sick of it, which -by the way- is artistic integrity.

Dead Metal wrote:So?
that does not diminish the fact that the show came first and that the toys are simply made as a way of cashing in on the popularity of the series, which is only over due to the fact that it'S creator is sick of it, which -by the way- is artistic integrity.

I never said it did. Only that, while it may not have started out as such, it evolved into being toyetic.

Sabrblade wrote:That's different. A dub (as in, a rescoring of the audio soundtrack with new voices and new dialogue) makes a work it's own entity from the original version, especially when it comes to the Transformers media. Subtitles, however, are completely different, as they are grounded in the principle of faithfully and legibly translating what is being spoken from one language to another.

I'm sorry, but it is no different. Both change the story as originally written and in the case of the dubs, performed. It's one thing when "The Headmasters" ignored "The Rebirth" as that fits in with your description. But not changing gender within the same narrative structure or like with "Animated", when Takara and the showrunners tried to make it be a part of the film continuity. The Unicron Trilogy did change a lot of the story from the Takara version. None of those dubs or subtitles as is the case here, retained the original spirit. It's gone on for years between Hasbro and Takara and as I understand it, it was Hasbro's call to change the subtitles. It'd be one thing if Shout did it on it's own, but they had permission from up top. What's more, what was done here is not much different from when video games with dialogue and dialogue text are adapted for English speaking countries.

Sabrblade wrote:Subtitles, however, are completely different, as they are grounded in the principle of faithfully and legibly translating what is being spoken from one language to another.

ROFLMAO!

First off, no, sub translations are no more "grounded" in some pseudo-principal than dubs, since they're usually the exact same translation. Trust me, the guys at FUNImation are not laboring under any delusions that they're creating art while they're subbing Crayon Shin-Chan or DBZ.

Second, iften the worst subs are the ones that try to do an exact translation. Japanese does not translate on a 1:1 basis to English, and any attempt to do so leads to things like this:



Japanese and English are simply too different, and allowances must be made for some 'wiggle room' in translations.

Mat001 wrote:I'm sorry, but it is no different. Both change the story as originally written and in the case of the dubs, performed.

Subtitles should only make us understand what is being spoken. They should not rewrite what is being spoken.

Mat001 wrote:It's one thing when "The Headmasters" ignored "The Rebirth" as that fits in with your description.

You do realize that The Headmasters was made and released BEFORE The Rebirth was, right? Takara's show came first.

Mat001 wrote:But not changing gender within the same narrative structure or like with "Animated", when Takara and the showrunners tried to make it be a part of the film continuity.

That's a fallacy. The Japanese Animated dub was dubbed faithfully and accurately to the English version (sans the renaming of Bulkhead and Ironhide into "Ironhide" and "Armorhide"). The dub show zero signs of trying to fit in with the movies. It's as much tied with the movies as its American counterpart (in other words, it isn't).

Mat001 wrote:The Unicron Trilogy did change a lot of the story from the Takara version.

With Armada and Energon, those changes were for the worse, since they were rush jobs. With Cybertron, the chnages were more tame and more creative, since the dubber seemed to have a better idea with what they were doing that time.

Mat001 wrote:None of those dubs or subtitles as is the case here, retained the original spirit. It's gone on for years between Hasbro and Takara and as I understand it, it was Hasbro's call to change the subtitles. It'd be one thing if Shout did it on it's own, but they had permission from up top. What's more, what was done here is not much different from when video games with dialogue and dialogue text are adapted for English speaking countries.

When the spoken dialog is changed, it becomes a new entity form the original. This is especially the case for the Transformers cartoon since the Universal Stream concept enables both versions to coexist within the same multiverse as two separate universes. One where everybody speaks English, and one where everybody speaks Japanese.

Skyfire77 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Subtitles, however, are completely different, as they are grounded in the principle of faithfully and legibly translating what is being spoken from one language to another.

ROFLMAO!

First off, no, sub translations are no more "grounded" in some pseudo-principal than dubs, since they're usually the exact same translation. Trust me, the guys at FUNImation are not laboring under any delusions that they're creating art while they're subbing Crayon Shin-Chan or DBZ.

Dude, the guys at FUNi are pros at this. They specialize in making accurate dubs, so it's no wonder that they subtitle tracks are similar to their dub scripts. Shout! and Hasbro, however, made deliberate changes to the subtitle script to rewrite what the characters were saying. ALPHA TRION DOES NOT SAY "LIGHT OUR DARKEST HOUR"! Having the subs say that he said that completely destroys the meaning of what he's saying.

Skyfire77 wrote:Second, iften the worst subs are the ones that try to do an exact translation. Japanese does not translate on a 1:1 basis to English, and any attempt to do so leads to things like this:



Japanese and English are simply too different, and allowances must be made for some 'wiggle room' in translations.

Do you really think I that simple-minded to want a "LITERAL" translation? That's ludicrous. Read what I wrote before about subtitles needing to be not only faithful, but legible. They can be written in proper English format and still retain the original meaning. THAT is what should have been done. It is unprofessional to have done otherwise.

Since DBZ has been brought up a few times, take this sentence for example:
"Supaa Saiya-jin Son Goku da!"
When literally translated, it reads something like:
"Super Saiyan Son Goku I am!"
While accurate, the grammatical syntax is terrible. A more proper translation that still retains the original message would be:
"I am the Super Saiyan, Son Goku!"

THAT is BOTH accurate AND grammatically correct in English! Nothing of what is originally being spoken is lost, and it makes when spoken in English. That is how subtitles should be.

What Hasbro has done is the equivalent of taking the original phrase and translating it as:
"Ally to good! Nightmare to you!"
In which the original meaning is completely lost due to some botched up new phrase being forced in for no good reason other than shallow fanwank (as is the case with these Headmasters subs).

Sabrblade wrote:You do release that The Headmasters was made and released BEFORE The Rebirth was, right? Takara's show came first.

Only by a few months. Both shows were in development at the same time; indeed, several Headmasters episodes are based off of US Season Four scripts. Takara did ignore the US "Rebirth" episodes in favor of their own story.

Sabrblade wrote:THAT is what should have been done. It is unprofessional to have done otherwise.

In your opinion.
Hasbro paid the checks, Shout! followed their orders. Don't like it, don't buy it. This is like complaining about "Robotech" with the box set of "Macross" on your desk!

Sabrblade wrote:Since DBZ has been brought up a few times, take this sentence for example:
"Supaa Saiya-jin Son Goku da!"
When literally translated, it reads something like:
"Super Saiyan Son Goku I am!"
While accurate, the grammatical syntax is terrible. A more proper translation that still retains the original message would be:
"I am the Super Saiyan, Son Goku!"

Actually, it should be Saiyajin in English too; trust me, I've known quite a few DBZ otaku, and it's still a sore point.

Sabrblade wrote:What Hasbro has done is the equivalent of taking the original phrase and translating it as:
"Ally to good! Nightmare to you!"

Which, as the licensee, they have every right to do. If Takara wanted a "pure" release, they had every opportunity to someone else. They chose Hasbro, and obviously made no such demands. Good enough for them, good enough for me.

Sabrblade wrote:In which the original meaning is completely lost due to some botched up new phrase being forced in for no good reason other than shallow fanwank (as is the case with these Headmasters subs).

Hasbro's established continuity is "shallow fanwank"? That's a rather... arrogant statement.

[quote=Sabrblade]Subtitles should only make us understand what is being spoken. They should not rewrite what is being spoken.[/quote]

Who says? Is there a hard and fast rule that says this? As it is, doesn't matter when the whole thing is corporate run as opposed to studio run. Hell, look at video games that have changed the meaning of certain storylines.

You do release that The Headmasters was made and released BEFORE The Rebirth was, right? Takara's show came first.

Right, but Takara was already aware that Hasbro had funded "The Rebirth" prior to the airing of "Four Warriors From The Sky". They just chose to ignore it so that they could have their show on the air before AKOM was finished. They never once discussed things which is why Chromedome was a lame duck in the US as opposed to in Japan. Takara and Hasbro were still in contact with each other when it came to the development of the toys. They just never chose to talk to each other beyond that.

That's a fallacy. The Japanese Animated dub was dubbed faithfully and accurately to the English version (sans the renaming of Bulkhead and Ironhide into "Ironhide" and "Armorhide"). The dub show zero signs of trying to fit in with the movies. It's a much tied with the movies as its American counterpart (in other words, it isn't).

In both Figure Ō and TV Magazine, along with Takara's marketing director, stated that the show took place before the events of the movie. Even though the show itself didn't refer to the film, that was their intent with the show.

With Armada and Energon, those changes were for the worse, since they were rush jobs.

Doesn't matter if it was a rush job or not, the fact is that both shows made changes to the Japanese storyline. Same with "Robots In Disguise".

With Cybertron, the chnages were more tame and more creative, since the dubber seemed to have a better idea with what they were doing that time.

Again, you fail to see that the same thing happening. Hasbro was the one that approved of those changes and had a hand it in.

When the spoken dialog is changed, it becomes a new entity form the original. This is especially the case for the Transformers cartoon since the Universal Stream concept enables both versions to coexist within the same multiverse as two separate universes. One where everybody speaks English, and one where everybody speaks Japanese.

That's just an excuse to hide behind. The fact is that both shows made changes to the previously established material and did not do it faithfully.

ALPHA TRION DOES NOT SAY "LIGHT OUR DARKEST HOUR"! Having the subs say that he said that completely destroys the meaning of what he's saying.

All it does is make it clear that the Matrix can save them all again, whereas it's not so clear in the original subtitle. You should also remember that the movie had not come out in Japan yet, so they didn't know the importance of the phrase. Had there been an immediate dub release, it would've been known to Toei when this was written.

[quote=Skyfire77]Which, as the licensee, they have every right to do. If Takara wanted a "pure" release, they had every opportunity to someone else. They chose Hasbro, and obviously made no such demands. Good enough for them, good enough for me[/quote]

See Madman and Metrodome. And as I noted, Takara was long since aware of this.

If I'm buying something, I wanna know damned well what they're saying. Especially subtitled material. And yes, I know there's gonna be some liberties due to syntax and grammar.

Skyfire77 wrote:In your opinion.
Hasbro paid the checks, Shout! followed their orders. Don't like it, don't buy it. This is like complaining about "Robotech" with the box set of "Macross" on your desk!

I have every right to state my dissatisfaction with a product that I feel needs improvement. Doing so makes me no less human than anyone who gives it blind praise.

Skyfire77 wrote:Actually, it should be Saiyajin in English too; trust me, I've known quite a few DBZ otaku, and it's still a sore point.

All I'll say about this is that "Saiyan" is just as acceptable for "Saiya-jin" as"Quintesson" is for "Quintessa-seijin". "Saiya-jin" as it is makes little sense in English, while it means "Saiya Person" in Japanese. Though, "Saiya Person" would kinda be too overly literal in English, so "Saiyan" works just as "Quintesson" does for "Quintessa-seijin" (or would you rather them be called "Quintessa Celestial Body People"?).

I think what most die hard DBZ fans would have really preferred is if the "Sai" part of "Saiyan" were to have been pronounced like "sigh" instead of "say", to better match wit the "Sai" part of "Saiya-jin".

Skyfire77 wrote:Which, as the licensee, they have every right to do. If Takara wanted a "pure" release, they had every opportunity to someone else. They chose Hasbro, and obviously made no such demands. Good enough for them, good enough for me.

Then, prepare to read what they're not saying. I quote RK_Striker_JK_5's above:

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:If I'm buying something, I wanna know damned well what they're saying. Especially subtitled material.

Skyfire77 wrote:Hasbro's established continuity is "shallow fanwank"? That's a rather... arrogant statement.

The thing is, this series is NOT part of Hasbro's continuity. It's Takara's. Hasbro's continuity has The Rebirth in this series' stead.

Hasbro's forcing in of references to things that are nonexistent in this series is an unnecessary attempt to make it look more appealing, when really this just messes up both the dialogue and the continuity.

Mat001 wrote:Who says? Is there a hard and fast rule that says this? As it is, doesn't matter when the whole thing is corporate run as opposed to studio run. Hell, look at video games that have changed the meaning of certain storylines.

Subtitles are but a translation of the dialogue script, not a full blown adaptation.

Mat001 wrote:In both Figure Ō and TV Magazine, along with Takara's marketing director, stated that the show took place before the events of the movie. Even though the show itself didn't refer to the film, that was their intent with the show.

They also said that Bulkhead would have Movie Ironhide's personality, and they didn't live up to that claim either. These were all stated before the show was dubbed into Japanese, so the Authorial Intent wasn't abided by.

Mat001 wrote:Doesn't matter if it was a rush job or not, the fact is that both shows made changes to the Japanese storyline. Same with "Robots In Disguise".

Mat001 wrote:Again, you fail to see that the same thing happening. Hasbro was the one that approved of those changes and had a hand it in.

Mat001 wrote:That's just an excuse to hide behind. The fact is that both shows made changes to the previously established material and did not do it faithfully.

Again, a dub is an adaptation, not simply a straight up translation. While I would have preferred that the dubs had been kept faithful to the originals, some of these changes were necessary to make these dubs work in Hasbro's continuity.

With the subtitled DVDs of The Headmasters, however, this is not a Japanese series being worked into the English continuity. This a release of the Japanese version as it happened in the Japanese continuity. Changing the meaning of dialogue by rewriting the subtitles desecrates that artistic integrity.

There is a difference between changing the dialogue altogether, and changing just the dialogue's meaning. The former involves dubs, and the latter involves these subs.

Mat001 wrote:All it does is make it clear that the Matrix can save them all again, whereas it's not so clear in the original subtitle.

The Matrix did NOT save them in that scene. The only one who benefited from it was Hot Rodimus. All the saving was done by Convoy and Rodimus Convoy (and Fortress, since he helped fight Galvatron a bit too).

Mat001 wrote:You should also remember that the movie had not come out in Japan yet, so they didn't know the importance of the phrase. Had there been an immediate dub release, it would've been known to Toei when this was written.

1. While it did not come out immediately at the time, the Japanese were still aware of it and its events. The FSRLTF 2010 story pages summarized it up as the "Unicron War", filling in the blanks for kids before the FSRLTF 2010 cartoon aired.

2. The importance of the phrase is irrelevant since it makes no sense in this context. It isn't "lighting their Darkest Hour," it's making Hot Rodimus undergo puberty for the umpteenth time. Do you think they said this line every time he wrinkled up his face in season 3? Nope! Plus, in the long run, the Matrix played no further role in this scene after that, since it was Convoy alone who saved everyone with his most recent sacrifice.

Mat001 wrote:See Madman and Metrodome. And as I noted, Takara was long since aware of this.

And, despite some grammatical errors, these releases stayed true to the original versions as much as possible (save for a few minor things that aren't worth getting worked up over). And at the same time, they were still coherently understandable in English, as it should be.

I, for one, do not care whether Alpha Trion spits out some meaningless blather about resurrecting cosmic wisdom or quotes the "light our darkest hour" line from TFTM. I also don't care whether the meteor is named "Metamorphose" or "Metamorphosis". I'm much more interested in whether the Rei clones formed the cores of the individual dummy plugs, or if the room itself was the core of the whole Dummy System. Why? Because that's something that actually affects the story in a HUGE way.

Most of you will have no idea what I'm talking about. If so, ignore me.

Skyfire77 wrote:Japanese and English are simply too different, and allowances must be made for some 'wiggle room' in translations.

there was once a time when I would have disagreed.

Sabrblade wrote:Subtitles should only make us understand what is being spoken. They should not rewrite what is being spoken.

sorry, but thats just not practical for a retail product in every case.

Sometimes a literal translation is just going to be lost on the audience and ultimately hurt the product in question.

What they should do is to try as close a translation as possible.

Mat001 wrote:You do realize that The Headmasters was made and released BEFORE The Rebirth was, right? Takara's show came first.

True, but that was done because Takara rejected Hasbro's concept for the headmasters.

So, Hasbro's concept came first.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Subtitles should only make us understand what is being spoken. They should not rewrite what is being spoken.

sorry, but thats just not practical for a retail product in every case.

Sometimes a literal translation is just going to be lost on the audience and ultimately hurt the product in question.

What they should do is to try as close a translation as possible.

If you read what else I wrote, you'd see that I said that I don't want a "literal" translation, but one that keeps the meaning of the original intact while still making sense in English. These subtitles have completely altered the meaning of the dialogue in several places.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Mat001 wrote:You do realize that The Headmasters was made and released BEFORE The Rebirth was, right? Takara's show came first.

True, but that was done because Takara rejected Hasbro's concept for the headmasters.

So, Hasbro's concept came first.

Sto, I wrote that.

Sabrblade wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Subtitles should only make us understand what is being spoken. They should not rewrite what is being spoken.

sorry, but thats just not practical for a retail product in every case.

Sometimes a literal translation is just going to be lost on the audience and ultimately hurt the product in question.

What they should do is to try as close a translation as possible.

If you read what else I wrote, you'd see that I said that I don't want a "literal" translation, but one that keeps the meaning of the original intact while still making sense in English. These subtitles have completely altered the meaning of the dialogue in several places.

I read the rest of what you wrote as well, I was just responded to the generalized idea that no re-writing is called for,

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Subtitles should only make us understand what is being spoken. They should not rewrite what is being spoken.

sorry, but thats just not practical for a retail product in every case.

Sometimes a literal translation is just going to be lost on the audience and ultimately hurt the product in question.

What they should do is to try as close a translation as possible.

If you read what else I wrote, you'd see that I said that I don't want a "literal" translation, but one that keeps the meaning of the original intact while still making sense in English. These subtitles have completely altered the meaning of the dialogue in several places.

I read the rest of what you wrote as well, I was just responded to the generalized idea that no re-writing is called for,

And one need not rewrite what they say. It is okay to rephrase what they say to fit English grammar syntax, but rewriting dialogue to say something else entirely changes the meaning of what they're saying, which is uncalled for.

Sabrblade wrote:And one need not rewrite what they say. It is okay to rephrase what they say to fit English grammar syntax, but rewriting dialogue to say something else entirely changes the meaning of what they're saying, which is uncalled for.

Again, that may not always be practical.There may be times when a rewrite is needed.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:And one need not rewrite what they say. It is okay to rephrase what they say to fit English grammar syntax, but rewriting dialogue to say something else entirely changes the meaning of what they're saying, which is uncalled for.

Again, that may not always be practical.There may be times when a rewrite is needed.

Example? Specifically with The Headmasters/Masterforce/Victory.

Sabrblade wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:And one need not rewrite what they say. It is okay to rephrase what they say to fit English grammar syntax, but rewriting dialogue to say something else entirely changes the meaning of what they're saying, which is uncalled for.

Again, that may not always be practical.There may be times when a rewrite is needed.

Example? Specifically with The Headmasters/Masterforce/Victory.

I have no HM example, and I never claimed that there was anything within the 3 series that should or shouldnt be altered.

My point is that your "it should never be done" suggestion isint realistic.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I have no HM example, and I never claimed that there was anything within the 3 series that should or shouldnt be altered.

Well, that is the topic at hand, so I figured any example might as well be form one of them.

Okay, then how 'bout some other example?

Sabrblade wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I have no HM example, and I never claimed that there was anything within the 3 series that should or shouldnt be altered.

Well, that is the topic at hand, so I figured any example might as well be form one of them.

Okay, then how 'bout some other example?

Are you really asking for an example?

Seriously, lets not beat around the bush, I'm sure that you, like myself, have seen plenty of Anime shows with and degree of questionably materials that border from the "odd" and gruesome to as far as the pornographic.

With out going into specifics, I can imagine the possibility of a need to make serious script changes to some projects when it comes to some cultural differences and just plain better storytelling.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I have no HM example, and I never claimed that there was anything within the 3 series that should or shouldnt be altered.

Well, that is the topic at hand, so I figured any example might as well be form one of them.

Okay, then how 'bout some other example?

Are you really asking for an example?

Seriously, lets not beat around the bush, I'm sure that you, like myself, have seen plenty of Anime shows with and degree of questionably materials that border from the "odd" and gruesome to as far as the pornographic.

With out going into specifics, I can imagine the possibility of a need to make serious script changes to some projects when it comes to some cultural differences and just plain better storytelling.

Are you talking about dubbing? Cuz I'm talking about subbing.

Plus, nowadays, people know better than to market mature anime to children. That's why we have such things as Adult Swim and the FUNimation Channel to air those on. About the only groups that still dumb down anime dubs for kids are 4Kids and Nelvana.

With subtitled release, however, those are not markets to children and are thus (supposed to be) left uncut wit hall original content intact.

Sabrblade wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I have no HM example, and I never claimed that there was anything within the 3 series that should or shouldnt be altered.

Well, that is the topic at hand, so I figured any example might as well be form one of them.

Okay, then how 'bout some other example?

Are you really asking for an example?

Seriously, lets not beat around the bush, I'm sure that you, like myself, have seen plenty of Anime shows with and degree of questionably materials that border from the "odd" and gruesome to as far as the pornographic.

With out going into specifics, I can imagine the possibility of a need to make serious script changes to some projects when it comes to some cultural differences and just plain better storytelling.

Are you talking about dubbing? Cuz I'm talking about subbing.

Plus, nowadays, people know better than to market mature anime to children. That's why we have such things as Adult Swim and the FUNimation Channel to air those on. About the only groups that still dumb down anime dubs for kids are 4Kids and Nelvana.

With subtitled release, however, those are not markets to children and are thus (supposed to be) left uncut wit hall original content intact.

I'm talking about both, and "people know better nowadays"........if only that were true.These boards are full of those that are ignorant of facts casnd yet will argue till doomsday they are right.

Dont you remember SaberPrime?

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I'm talking about both, and "people know better nowadays"........if only that were true.These boards are full of those that are ignorant of facts casnd yet will argue till doomsday they are right.

By "people" I meant "anime dubbing companies", which is why I mentioned 4Kids and Nelvana.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Dont you remember SaberPrime?

A.K.A. Rial Vestro? A.K.A. "The Artist Formerly Known as Saber Prime"? Yep. Good times.

Sabrblade wrote:By "people" I meant "anime dubbing companies", which is why I mentioned 4Kids and Nelvana.

ahh

A.K.A. Rial Vestro? A.K.A. "The Artist Formerly Known as Saber Prime"? Yep. Good times.

fun yes, but a prime example of the saying "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."