The Energon Pub

jorod74 wrote:isn't it odd that the F-15s are still undefeated, still better than 9/10 of the other countries' fighters, yet we are spooked into grounding them?

It would be strategically unwise to wait until after they had been defeated to replace them.

Astrotrain87 wrote:they'd all get shot down to a Air Force Reserve Pilot lucky enough to get in in the seat of an F-14.The Tomcat can engage 6 aircraft at once,something no other U.S. aircraft can do by my recollection.Also on the F-22,its still very subpar compared the Su-37,40 aircraft,so its not like it fills the gap there in the U.S. arsenal.

Actually, they wouldn't; the F-22 would kill an F-14 before it even saw it. And if I recall correctly, that "engage six targets" thing never worked the way the designers wanted to in the first place (the Phoenix missile proved to be the biggest bust in the F-14's arsenal). The Air Force performed war games between the F-15 (the aircraft comprable to the F-14) and F-22, and guess which aircraft came out on top.

As for pilots hating the F-22, I've heard otherwise, especially since its reputed the Raptor takes less time to acclimate to than previous fighters.

jorod74 wrote:isn't it odd that the F-15s are still undefeated, still better than 9/10 of the other countries' fighters, yet we are spooked into grounding them?

Unfortunately, most of our current fighter stock have airframes that date back to the 1970s in design, and so are becoming dated compared to the Gen4.5 aircraft like the Eurofighter and Gripen. There's also the MiG-29 and Su-27, both of which are very capable aircraft that, in the hands of a capable pilot, can beat our aircraft in a dogfight. If I recall correctly, when NATO held war exercises back in the days when the Germans still had MiG-29s in their air force, the "Fulcrums" outfought the Eagles everytime. And the "Flanker" is the reason the ATF program (the one that spawned the F-22) was created in the first place. And the Russians are selling their MiG and Suhkoi to countries that aren't really on speaking terms with ours.

If the US want to maintain air dominance in the future, it has to replace its current fleet. That's why the F-22 and F-35 have been developed.

The Master Blaster wrote:You're jealous of our harrier jump jets aren't you?

The U.S. marines also operate the harrier.As for the F-22 vs. F-14 as far as I know,14s are the only planes that can carry phoenix missiles,sidewinders and ANNRAMs (I'm not sure how its spelled) in the same load so its better equipped.As for the rate of climb,I'm not a pilot so I could only go by 2nd hand accounts.I know for fact the F-14 beats the F/A 18 in range and weapons payload.

also from what I heard the only drawback of phoenix missiles I heard of was their cost

Astrotrain87 wrote:also from what I heard the only drawback of phoenix missiles I heard of was their cost

It was large, costly, couldn't be used on any other aircraft other than the F-14, and was impractical in close-range combat compared to the Sparrow, Sidewinder and AMMRAAM.

The F-22 is the most advanced and the superior aircraft in the skies.

It has what the air force calls "first sight, first shot, first kill" which means that the enemy is defeated before the Raptor can even be seen. In training, one Raptor can take on 5 Eagles (F-15's) at once and the Eagles can't even find the Raptor.

The Raptor was defeated in training only once by a pilot that fired all of his payload in the general direction and got lucky, however according to the rules of the war game, that doesn't count.

The Raptor's top speed is only known to the U.S. government and the Raptor designers at Lockheed Martin. The maximum speed shown is how fast it can go without its afterburners. It is also the only aircraft able to "supercruise" which means that it can break the sound barrier without after burners.

The Eagle has reached its maximum potential, the Raptor is in its infancy and has the ability to be upgraded almost indefinetly and the Raptor can still beat 5 Eagles.

Only an F-35II has a chance against an F-22 but I bet it would take at least two F-35II's to beat an F-22.

war games don't prove a thing.Unless those missiles are immune to counter measures,and the pilots don't attempt to evade,even then what stops the F-15 from being updated with better radar and the same missiles.On paper the stryker APC should be superior to the M113 APC but the M113 is fairing better then the stryker or had until they were replaced.However Unlike ground vehicles these aircraft don't look like they'll engage anything soon.

Astrotrain87 wrote:If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Yeah, that's all there is. Now, retrofitting and upgrades are fine, but don't ditch on of the best fighters ever.

i look at our aircraft and think how fickle we are.
the f-117 is being retired. (it hasn't reached its 20th year of service yet)
the Marines are racing to replace their heavy lift helicopters with those death trap Osprey tilt rotors, yet are sticking with vietnam era (but updated) Cobra gunships when the Apaches are dominating.

but i see the point made about retiring the f-15 before it finds itself a defeat.
kinda like the p-51 mustangs of WWII that were still flying during the Korean Conflict; they ruled in WWII, but against Mig-15s, (jets) they had to be scrapped in a hurry.

oh, the USMC version of the F-35 will make the Harrier obsolete. about time. i saw what happens when you let your mind wander while flying a harrier- it is ugly. terrifying.

I haven't heard much about the F-35 yet. Saw it first time in Die Hard 4.

I wonder if it's not perfected yet. That's why the silence on this piece of machine.

The F-35 is a gimped f-22. Both were bid on for the U.S military, and the F-22 is superior. The F-22 will be the best fighter plane EVER. The F-35 is basically F-22 tech that the U.S Militia is willing to sell.

F-22 2.2 mach supercruise (no afterburners, could be higher even not declassified completly).

Has thrust vectoring, and a version of it w/o tail fin and only thrust vectoring is being developed.

Holds fewer weapons than an F-15, or F/A-18, but MUCH more effective. The more weaponry it holds the less stealthy it is. A bare F-22 is only a few mm large on radar. It only holds about 500 rounds of 20cal munition, which will burn off in a few seconds.

Even in the rare occasion than an F-15 has been able to spot an F-22 in practice battles, it has been unable to lock on it.

The first plane to best an F-22 will probably be sub-orbital. This plane is the most sophisticated technology on earth.

F-35 has VTOL capability. Although i don't know if it's perfected yet.

Dang, I guess I will have to doodle me up a G1-esc Seeker who has a F-22 alt mode....

I don't mind the Seekers having F-22 alt modes, if only they were not made so fuglish like the Movie Starscream was. Maybe a nice G1 style, perhaps?

Edit: Though to be honest, I imagine the Seekers could just keep their F-15 Alt modes as seeing that Cybertronian technology is far superior to Earth's anyway, and a F-15 Seeker could blast the fanciest F-22 out of the skies without breaking a sweat. They probably would only change the Alt mode if it held some true significant advantage, not because humans are changing stuff every few years. Plus why change your "diquise" if humans already know you exist and your coloration is not something a normal plane tends to have? Having "old" Alt modes would be a sort of an "in your face" kind of insult, as "new" Earth technology can't seem to beat an alien that is using "old" Earth technology.

Zombie Starscream wrote:Dang, I guess I will have to doodle me up a G1-esc Seeker who has a F-22 alt mode....

I don't mind the Seekers having F-22 alt modes, if only they were not made so fuglish like the Movie Starscream was. Maybe a nice G1 style, perhaps?

Edit: Though to be honest, I imagine the Seekers could just keep their F-15 Alt modes as seeing that Cybertronian technology is far superior to Earth's anyway, and a F-15 Seeker could blast the fanciest F-22 out of the skies without breaking a sweat. They probably would only change the Alt mode if it held some true significant advantage, not because humans are changing stuff every few years. Plus why change your "diquise" if humans already know you exist and your coloration is not something a normal plane tends to have? Having "old" Alt modes would be a sort of an "in your face" kind of insult, as "new" Earth technology can't seem to beat an alien that is using "old" Earth technology.

It's a point I like to use in fan-fiction. Even though their disguises have been superseded by newer models, because they're not hiding any more there's no need to change.

A good disguise can come in handy from time to time.

Zombie Starscream wrote:Dang, I guess I will have to doodle me up a G1-esc Seeker who has a F-22 alt mode....

I don't mind the Seekers having F-22 alt modes, if only they were not made so fuglish like the Movie Starscream was. Maybe a nice G1 style, perhaps?

It's funny you mention Seekers having F-22 alt modes with G1 style bot modes. That was actually their original design for the movie before someone decided it wasn't alien enough, thus Mutant Moth Starscream. Here's a sketch from Ben Procter's website on the early movie design for Starscream, note that no color had been applied yet so it looks a little flat but it should give you an idea:

Auto Bot wrote:A good disguise can come in handy from time to time.

That's why you save it 'til you need it! Rather than take it on as soon as it's available and give the enemy the opportunity to get used to it.

Swerve wrote:

Zombie Starscream wrote:Dang, I guess I will have to doodle me up a G1-esc Seeker who has a F-22 alt mode....

I don't mind the Seekers having F-22 alt modes, if only they were not made so fuglish like the Movie Starscream was. Maybe a nice G1 style, perhaps?

It's funny you mention Seekers having F-22 alt modes with G1 style bot modes. That was actually their original design for the movie before someone decided it wasn't alien enough, thus Mutant Moth Starscream. Here's a sketch from Ben Procter's website on the early movie design for Starscream, note that no color had been applied yet so it looks a little flat but it should give you an idea:

Wow... that actually makes me glad we had the Starscream we did.

Of many things, Jets and Cars have in common is the fact that truely classic designs may get retired but never fade away.

Yes the F-15 may be retired now, but the astetic beauty of it will go on for may years as do WWII fighters and other classic aircraft.

I mention this with cars because take the Corvette StingRay, a work of art not produced in some time, but still, each year countless model, die-cast, and other assorted versions are sold in quantity each year.

So hail the next gen of fighter craft that keep out brothern safe, may they fight proud and true...

But still, as their predicessors bow and stand aside, they enter a new phase of their history in which somethjing like the G1 Seeker design may become even more relavent

And the irony, they are normaly prtrayed as narduel enemies here

Tekka wrote:

Swerve wrote:

Zombie Starscream wrote:Dang, I guess I will have to doodle me up a G1-esc Seeker who has a F-22 alt mode....

I don't mind the Seekers having F-22 alt modes, if only they were not made so fuglish like the Movie Starscream was. Maybe a nice G1 style, perhaps?

It's funny you mention Seekers having F-22 alt modes with G1 style bot modes. That was actually their original design for the movie before someone decided it wasn't alien enough, thus Mutant Moth Starscream. Here's a sketch from Ben Procter's website on the early movie design for Starscream, note that no color had been applied yet so it looks a little flat but it should give you an idea:

Wow... that actually makes me glad we had the Starscream we did.

It's an early design. Had they developed this idea more, it could have been something interesting. It really does stick out because when you compare it to the other bots, it does lack the alien look the others have.

I've had a tough time trying to decide whether I like Starscream's movie appearance or not. He really had very little screen time and quite a bit of that time was in the F-22 Raptor mode. It's also kind of tough to base an opinion on his apperance when looking at the toy. The toys, while very nice looking, don't look completely faithful to their screen counterparts.

Then you have the Sector 7 video of <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVvivJsKBlk">MP Starscream</a>. It's not very alien but it gives you an idea of what it would have looked like if they strictly went G1, which I'm glad they didn't.

Rhask wrote:The F-35 is a gimped f-22. Both were bid on for the U.S military, and the F-22 is superior. The F-22 will be the best fighter plane EVER. The F-35 is basically F-22 tech that the U.S Militia is willing to sell.

F-22 2.2 mach supercruise (no afterburners, could be higher even not declassified completly).

Has thrust vectoring, and a version of it w/o tail fin and only thrust vectoring is being developed.

Holds fewer weapons than an F-15, or F/A-18, but MUCH more effective. The more weaponry it holds the less stealthy it is. A bare F-22 is only a few mm large on radar. It only holds about 500 rounds of 20cal munition, which will burn off in a few seconds.

Even in the rare occasion than an F-15 has been able to spot an F-22 in practice battles, it has been unable to lock on it.

The first plane to best an F-22 will probably be sub-orbital. This plane is the most sophisticated technology on earth.

Here's the F-22s potential competitor, they call it the Berkut, I call it Cyclonus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1wXsygQTVA

Swerve wrote:Then you have the Sector 7 video of <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVvivJsKBlk">MP Starscream</a>. It's not very alien but it gives you an idea of what it would have looked like if they strictly went G1, which I'm glad they didn't.

That looks pretty sweet though, seeing him swoop in and Transform like that. I would have adored that look in the movie. All they'd need to do to the MP model for me would be to combine the fins with the legs so they're a bit more meaty in appearance.

GetterDragun wrote:Here's the F-22s potential competitor, they call it the Berkut, I call it Cyclonus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1wXsygQTVA

That design is just pure awesome, and I would love to see it in the next movie as Skywarp. =D Lol. Fat chance of that though, for reasons I won't get into.

GetterDragun wrote:

Rhask wrote:The F-35 is a gimped f-22. Both were bid on for the U.S military, and the F-22 is superior. The F-22 will be the best fighter plane EVER. The F-35 is basically F-22 tech that the U.S Militia is willing to sell.

F-22 2.2 mach supercruise (no afterburners, could be higher even not declassified completly).

Has thrust vectoring, and a version of it w/o tail fin and only thrust vectoring is being developed.

Holds fewer weapons than an F-15, or F/A-18, but MUCH more effective. The more weaponry it holds the less stealthy it is. A bare F-22 is only a few mm large on radar. It only holds about 500 rounds of 20cal munition, which will burn off in a few seconds.

Even in the rare occasion than an F-15 has been able to spot an F-22 in practice battles, it has been unable to lock on it.

The first plane to best an F-22 will probably be sub-orbital. This plane is the most sophisticated technology on earth.

Here's the F-22s potential competitor, they call it the Berkut, I call it Cyclonus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1wXsygQTVA

I was talking about the SU-37/47 with someone else in another thread. They had concerns that the new Transformers: Animated Starscream couldn't fly with such a wing design. I reassured them that forward swept wing designs have been around since World War II when German aeronautics engineers developed the design. The FSW design was supposed to allow for better manuverability and to help prevent stall at high angle of attack.


The US looked into FSW designs. The Grumman X-29 was chosen over the General Dynamics F-16 FSW desigin in 1984, but after experimenting with it for a while, they opted not to put them into production afterall.

This initial design may look better in toy form. It's got more airplane panels to cover up the limbs and extremities. And, his toy will surely have hands!

Swerve wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:

Rhask wrote:The F-35 is a gimped f-22. Both were bid on for the U.S military, and the F-22 is superior. The F-22 will be the best fighter plane EVER. The F-35 is basically F-22 tech that the U.S Militia is willing to sell.

F-22 2.2 mach supercruise (no afterburners, could be higher even not declassified completly).

Has thrust vectoring, and a version of it w/o tail fin and only thrust vectoring is being developed.

Holds fewer weapons than an F-15, or F/A-18, but MUCH more effective. The more weaponry it holds the less stealthy it is. A bare F-22 is only a few mm large on radar. It only holds about 500 rounds of 20cal munition, which will burn off in a few seconds.

Even in the rare occasion than an F-15 has been able to spot an F-22 in practice battles, it has been unable to lock on it.

The first plane to best an F-22 will probably be sub-orbital. This plane is the most sophisticated technology on earth.

Here's the F-22s potential competitor, they call it the Berkut, I call it Cyclonus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1wXsygQTVA

I was talking about the SU-37/47 with someone else in another thread. They had concerns that the new Transformers: Animated Starscream couldn't fly with such a wing design. I reassured them that forward swept wing designs have been around since World War II when German aeronautics engineers developed the design. The FSW design was supposed to allow for better manuverability and to help prevent stall at high angle of attack.


The US looked into FSW designs. The Grumman X-29 was chosen over the General Dynamics F-16 FSW desigin in 1984, but after experimenting with it for a while, they opted not to put them into production afterall.

Probably because of materials cost. The forward swept wing design is so maneuvarable that there is enough force to snap the wings, that's why the SU-47 is only a technology demo, sinceit is possible that when pushed it could snap the wing (plus the cost to produce it would re real high due to the materials).