Rial Vestro wrote:
No I don't.
This IS part of free will. The robot would not have been dissobediant if he didn't have free will.
You just pointed out why you said it never happened. Thanks for proveing my point.
You do need to learn to follow post, and you've proven my point twice over.
A] I said nothing in that post that proves I said the event never happened.
B] the conversation wasnt about "free will" of how it contributes to disobedience or any possible cause of disobedience..
Its was simply about your claim that I said the event never happened.
You need to go back to school.
You said that "free will may not of been noticeable" yet dissobediance is only possible WITH free will
Thats completely false and illogical.
Millions upon millions of modern day devices, equipment, conveyances, vehicles and technology malfunction every single day and free will is never a factor.
and it was in fact noticeable.
Not till it was too late to really deal with it.
To say free will wasn't noticeable is to say that they never noticed when the robot became dissobediant and they never dissposed of him for it sence they didn't notice it.
No.
To say free will may not have been notice by the Quints is to simple say they may not have noticed.That they were to arrogant to consider their creations had grew past their programing, that they were too self involved to notice that their creations had learned the value of freedom and were planning a revolt.
You need to stop trying to "read past" whats been said.
Your inability to see the big picture and your inability to see multiple senerios always lead you to the wrong conclusions.
No I said that's what YOU'RE implying.
I implied no such thing.
That's not wrong.
Yes it is.
By the time the rebellion started they were severely out numbered with discontented robots.
It was far too late to deal with the problem.
"Untill it was too late to do anything" would be the rebellion. At any time before that it would not have been "too late" because they still could have prevented it from happening. They could in fact have done something and were in fact doing things that maybe they thought would have worked but didn't.
False.
The only thing the Quints could have really done was shut down every robot they ever made.
And they were obviously unwilling to do that.
Either because of their laziness, dependentness and arrogance or because they feared reprisal from all the customers they sold robots too.
If it was in fact "too late to do anything" then there would be no way to prevent the rebellion from happening and if there was no way to prevent it then that means it's allready started.
It was too late the second the first cog was set in motion.
The minute the robots learned to bypass their programing plan it was inevitable that their would be a rebellion.
It's like cooking. Is it too late to do anything to prevent your food from burning when you start to smell it burning or is it too late when the smoke sets off the fire alarm. Useually if you smell it burning it hasn't actully been completly burnt yet and you may still be able to salvage whatever it is that you're cooking.
That is the most idiotic and illogical analogy you have ever made.
Its nothing like cooking because your food cant do anything to help them self's.
And thats why it was too late for the Quints long before the rebellion.
Any action the Quints could have taken to truly deal with the issue would have been met with a counter action.
If the Quints started recycling robots in larger numbers it would have inspired the conspiring robots to attack earlier and start the rebellion much sooner then they originally did.
Althu they may have lost.
I'll say it again, the only hope the Quints had was to shut them all down, something they were not willing to do....obviously.
I have to say that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard you say.
Then you need to do more research.
Earlier in this you claimed the Quints were weaker even than humans.
What I actually said was that they
seemed weaker then humans, considering how Spike over powered a Quint.
But that doesnt necessarily mean they were definitely weaker then humans.
And in either case it doesnt mean that most of the original Autobots were much stronger then the Quints.
The Autobot ancestors may have been weaker then their decendents but they'd still be stronger than any organic life form.
1] thats not necessarily true.They would only be as strong as they were designed to be and theres no reason to assume the Quints would have designed all of them with great strength.
2]The Quints were not totally organic.As a matter of fact I appears they were bearly 20% organic.
For the most part the Quintessons themselse were organic
You need to do more research.
Not only were they described in the comic bios as mostly cybernetic but the shows/movie character description also makes the same claim.
There's no possible way the robots could of been weaker than the quints. In order for that to be true the robots would have to be constructed of a verry weak metal like aluminum. That's about the only metal I can think of that a human can crush with their bare hands. Everything else is nice and solid and would hurt like hell if you got hit with it.
Now your trying argue construction methods????
How strong and dence their metal was is not a factor in their strengths.
What is a factor is the power in their internal moters,gears and hydraulics .
And those are all factors that could have been designed to be weak or strong.They are also upgradable...to a degree.
I repeat what I said earlier....theres no reason to assume the old Autobots were that much stronger then the Quints.
Which is how the rebeillion started which didn't happen in the scene we're talking about.
Nobody claimed it happened in that scene.
But I repeat......if one robot acted there were millions thinking the same way.
Which means the Quints were already outnumbered by discontented robots and the Quints were unwilling to do what was needed to stop them.
Depending on what you're asking either...
In that scene, yes he was and that's a fact.
And the dialog given indicates your wrong.
"In time the Quintasons endowed their products with a simulated intelligence. NOW the machines could manufacture them self's....and before long they grew to lazy and greedy to bother even with that.
There were simple ways to wring performance out of their slaves."To me that sounds like the early robots
"grew to lazy and greedy to bother manufacturing them self's."Which is a dialog acknowledgment that the disobedient robot we saw was not the first.
Or
The only one who ever rebelled, no I never said any such thing.
Seems like thats what your implying.
Never said that either.
It is what you implied by this statement.
You do know what "conspireing" means right? It's something done in a group not by yourself.
other statements also implied as such.
What I said was that it takes more than 1 robot to conspire and in the scene we're talking about there was only one robot who rebelled at that time.
Why do you keep focusing on that scene???
We're not just talking about "just" that scene.
We're talking about every inevitable event that lead to the rebellion.
Again, this all happens much LATER
Actually we don't know for a fact that it happened "MUCH LATER" even thou I happen to believe it did.
But in either case my point is made.
I never said that the scene of the disobedient robot showed conspiracy, I said it proved a sentiment that was spreading to all robots which lead to conspiracy.
Even in real life slaves would offten rebel as individuals
Which all leads to conspiracy, just as I said.And just as the dialog indicates.
"The Quintasons also used the robots for entertainment.Machine was pitted against maching in gladiatorial combat.
Some of us however,found this pointless combat repellent and sought to put a stop to it.
We failed, but the seeds of revolt had been planted and would one day yeald a terrible harvest"Now keep in mind....one of the gladiators robots was the recycled robot from the preceding scene and he was also the one that attacked the Quint and was ,presumably, the voice speaking at the time.
And it also appeared that the "Gladiator scene" took place not to long after the recycling scene.
And either way the events are linked because it was the same robot.
years before they'd ever think or learn to work togeather. There may be 1 person out of 100 who's brave enough to risk his life for freedom. Even fewer who's smart enough to realize that everyone who's lost their life for freedom did so because they acted as an idividual and if someone smart enough to realize that can make others realize it and ban togeather, that's when the real trouble starts. Even still at this point there may be thoughs who aren't brave enough to risk there lives.
None of that effects what I've been saying.
The start of it all is still when the first robot learned to bypass his programming.
Thats when it all started, thats what got the ball rolling, thats the seed that grew into the harvest of rebellion.
With out "A" first robot bypassing his programing none of the other events would have come to past.
And again by the time other robots learned to bypass their programing it was too late for the Quints because they were not willing to do what was necessary.
Given all that it's no wonder slavery lasted for so long before it was abolished.
"Slavery" has not been abolished world wide.
And in case your just referring to North America, to be completely accurate, "Slavery" wasnt in practiced for "so long" before it was abolished.
This is by no means a comment designed to discredit the suffering by slaves, I am a decedent of slaves, my great grandmother was a slave.
But slavery was only legal of 200 years and abolished in 246 years.
In the grans scheme of things thats not really that long.
Again, you need to be more clear
Again, nothing wrong with my reading. You're just not clear on what the hell you're talking about.
I'm going to say this again....and hopefully for the last time.
I was clear,So clear that no one else questioned what I was saying.
If I was wrong or unclear "
Name Violation" would have said something, just as he has when you were wrong or unclear.
And the issue is your readding skills.
This is not the first debate where you have had this kind of problem and I am
"FAR" from the first person to tell you about it.
Between your poor reading and comprehension skills and your habit of assuming what others mean instead of asking for qualification when your confused is a wonder you still bother debating.
Not only that but your inability to grasp simple concepts and poor understanding of characters and their motivations leads to you making bad assumptions.
And here's where your logic fails.
Really???Lets see whos logic really fails.
Yes there were probly 100s if not more THINKING about doing what that one robot did. Yes he was not the only one. But what you're failing to realize is that at that time there's no evidence to suport that robots were allready conspireing togeather.
Which is irrelevant.
As long as there was discontent there was the potential for disobedience.
As long as there was a number of dissatisfied robots there was the potential for conspiracy.
And the minute there was the potential for disobedience and conspiracy ,revolt and rebellion was inevitable.
And by that point it was already too late for the Quints because they were unwilling to take their only chance and shut them all down.
Durring this time when only small numbers are acting out it's still possible to prevent the larger numbers from doing the same.
No it really wasnt........
You even said it yourself. Fear was keeping them in check.
And fear doesnt last for ever.
The Quints only chance to "nip it in the bud" was to shut them all down.
And they were not willing to do so.
The simple fact is that there's no evidence to suport any groups exsisted at the same time as that individual.
I never suggest that at all.
I said it proved a sentiment that was growing.
And a sentiment is like a growing tree.
You need to attack the roots to really kill it.
The only way the Quints could attack the "roots" of the rebellion was to stop the sentiment from growing.
And the only way they could do that was to shut them all down.
No it wasn't.
Yes it was.
The first time a single robot dissobeys means nothing except that one robot dissobeyed.
No its proof that one robot learned to over come his programing.
Which suggest the possibility that others might as well.
Its arrogance that lets one believe that its a fluke.
It MAY of lead to the rest but that was not the only possible outcome.
Doesnt matter if it was the "ONLY" possible outcome.
It was a likely outcome is not most likely.
They still could have prevented everything else from ever happening in the first place.
Only by shutting them all down, which they werent willing to do.
If someone has a deadly illness it's not "too late" for them till they actully die.
Thats completely and totally false.
Even with the illnesss we can cure and treat there is a point of no return.
There is a point that if the illness in not discovered by a certin stage, it can not be cured or treated.
Even someone with cancer may not be able to completly cure the illness but they can slow the spred of it to live longer.
Again, only if discovered by a certin point.
Other illnesses that do have cures can be cured at any time before the actual death.
Completely and totally untrue.
You should refrain from making comment on issues you know little to nothing about.
There are a number of illnesses with cures ,that for the cure to be effective it must be given by a certin time frame long before the final stage of the illness.
Your ignorance has risen to a new level.What they were willing or unwilling to do is irrellivent.
Nonsense.
What they were willing to do is at the very heart of the matter.
They only had one viable cource of action to prevent the inevitable.
The fact that they were unwilling to take that action proves it was too late for them.
It's what they were capable of doing that matters.
Capability means nothing if your not willing to take the action.
Its the same reason why I told you Batman winns in every "free willed" fight with Superman.
Yes Superman has the capability and the powers to just fly up in space and melt Batman.....but he doesnt have the "will" to do it.
You're allready well aware of my feelings on this subject and you probly realize that if I knew for a fact that I had a fatal illness I would not do anything about it. That doesn't mean that it's "too late" to save my life. I might be unwilling to do so but that doesn't mean the capability doesn't exsist. It's not "too late" to save my life till I'm dead, any time before I die anyone could do something to exstend my life.
There is a point with many illness that it becomes "too late" to do anything....even when theres a cure.
There is a point with some illnesses that a cure becomes ineffective.
A point when the "collateral damage" caused by the illness is irreparable.
"Sífilis" being just one of those types of illness.1 injection of penicillin G will cure Sifilis is detected early.
But if it spreads to the heart,the kidnys or the brain before the cure is given then your dead.
Its too late.
It will kill you.
Its inevitable.
Its only a matter of time.
And "Sífilis" is far from the only illness that functions in this way.
I repeat, you should refrain from making comments about subjects you know little to nothing about.
Too late to do anything means that they were not capable to do anything not that they were unwilling.
Cababilities mean nothing with out the will to use them.
I just think they never realized how storng they really were or how weak their masters were. Hell even when the Autobots are on Earth I still don't think they understand quite how weak organic life forms are compaired to them. They may have gone on not realizeing till at least when they met Chip Chase assumeing that he wasn't born paralized.
I'll say again.
A] the Quints were bearly organic.
B] theres no reason to assume the Autobots of the time were much stronger the the Quints.
Speaking of which in a movie comparision to G1. Sam and Mikala are obviously Spike and Carly. But there was Sam's friend who showed up in one scene of the first movie climbing a tree. I wonder if he'll end up in a wheel chair later in the movie universe to be the movie version of Chip Chase?
I dont think so.
I dont think Bay cares to make that many G1 nods.
How do you know it took that long for the first robot to dissobey?
You misunderstood again.
The rebellion took place after a million years of slavery.
Thats why I said nearly a million years.
