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What if Christianity is Wrong?

Welcome to the General Discussion area where just about anything goes! This area is designed to discuss all matters and does not necessarily have to be Transformers related. Please keep topics relevant.

Postby DoubleOScorpio » Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:06 am

First off, this probably isn't my place as a newbie, but this topic seems to invite argument - b/c no one can prove themselves to be correct.

Religion, in whatever form it comes, is a very important component of the human experience. Having studied history in my college days, the common thread that binds all of human history is our need to believe in a higher power.

The Egyptians, Incas, Mayas, and many other "primitive" cultures looked to the sun, moon, and stars for their deities. Those of the Jewish faith looked to a noncorporeal God.

My personal faith is and has always been that of Catholic Christianity, but I do believe that God has revealed himself to humanity in multiple ways. No one answer is the correct answer.

I know that goes against many of my Catholic teachings, but it is the only way that I can reconcile hinduism, buddhaism, et al. I see many truths in non-Catholic teachings, ones that are no less valid in my mind that those I was brought up with.

Sooo...answer me this - if a person is never exposed to Christ in his true form (read: not having it forced on them via Conquistadors, Inquisitors, or politicians), would an all-loving God punish those people? In my opinion, I think not.

I believe Christ was the Savior because he came to Earth to show us how to enjoy life on Earth while still dealing with our human frailties. There is a peace of mind that comes with walking in the Lord's footsteps. Every time I've strayed from the path, all I end up with is confusion, anger, and discontent.

In closing - let's all take a step back and not judge others. Some of the darkest periods of human history have come when those with authority force their beliefs on the masses. I hope that we as a species can learn from these past mistakes so that we don't make them again in the future.
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Postby Mxmyownsummer » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:05 am

Bravo, WildScorpio.

If believing in a higher power is what makes you happy, then absolutely nobody is valid in telling you that it is wrong.

If Christianity or religion in general IS wrong what is that REALLY hurting? Who are we harming in believing in a higher power?

Religion is a very personal thing in my belief. I think that those that choose to congregate because of their religion are great, but I personally hold it very close to my heart and choose not to "witness". I don't feel the need to have my ideals come under fire from anybody else, because nobody has the right to question what makes me happy in life.

It's like a friend of mine in AA said one day: "it's not that I really believe that God is looking down and watching my every move; but if saying the Lords prayer and the Serenity prayer is what helps me get through every day without a drink; then By God, I'm going to do it."

I have to agree.
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Postby Tammuz » Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:19 pm

Mxmyownsummer wrote:Bravo, WildScorpio.

If believing in a higher power is what makes you happy, then absolutely nobody is valid in telling you that it is wrong.

If Christianity or religion in general IS wrong what is that REALLY hurting? Who are we harming in believing in a higher power?

Religion is a very personal thing in my belief. I think that those that choose to congregate because of their religion are great, but I personally hold it very close to my heart and choose not to "witness". I don't feel the need to have my ideals come under fire from anybody else, because nobody has the right to question what makes me happy in life.

It's like a friend of mine in AA said one day: "it's not that I really believe that God is looking down and watching my every move; but if saying the Lords prayer and the Serenity prayer is what helps me get through every day without a drink; then By God, I'm going to do it."

I have to agree.


I have to disagree, beleif is fine when it's personal but when your beleif becomes the justification for irrational acts it is something different.

to say that just becuase something makes you happy means no one can tell you it's wrong seems fine until you analyse the subject matter;
If X is what makes you happy, then absolutely nobody is valid in telling you that it is wrong.


put christianity as X and the above statment seems fines as long as you hold christianty in a positive moral standing, however put child pornography as X and you'll see that the argument that just becuase something makes you happy doesn't make it right.

see it's all dependant on moral standing, and this where religoen has a mjor problem, becuase the moral standing is affected by religoen, quite often morality is defined by religon. therefore we end up saying it's ok to be christian be chistianity is OK, which is circular logic, or an apriori argument, neither of which stand up in a philosophical debate.

as to who you hurt by being christian even if it's wrong, as christianity defines your moral code, if christianity is wrong, it calls into to question the validity of your moral code. i mean if a peadophile asked the same question of his beleifs,for example "even if peadophilia is wrong who does it hurt?" very few of us are going to accept that argument as justification for that moralities validity.


I'm not trying to push Nambla or anything, I'm just trying to show how subjective the above argument is, and hopefully finding using to extreme examples of opposing morality that most of can relate to
(christian morality being semi-universally seen as good here, and pedophilic morality universally bad)
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Postby Mxmyownsummer » Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:41 pm

put christianity as X and the above statment seems fines as long as you hold christianty in a positive moral standing, however put child pornography as X and you'll see that the argument that just becuase something makes you happy doesn't make it right.


I see your point, but I'm not sure that you see mine. I wasn't talking about pedophilia, drug abuse, or any other questionable behavior, I was talking about the beliefs that we hold dear to our hearts that usually tend to make us a better person. I believe that consistently questioning your moral views on life is quite appropriate if it is done in the right way.

I think you're stretching the subject matter at hand by relating religious beliefs to pedophilia. If there were a church of NAMBLA I would be wrong in saying this, but seeing as there currently is not, I think you're grasping.

I believe the question at hand was what if Christians are wrong about their beliefs in the afterlife, or if Christians are morally wrong. I think a religion that in it's purest state teaches non-violence, tolerance, and self-reflection is pretty alright. But hey.. I make circular arguments, so what I say is bunk.
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Postby Tammuz » Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:32 pm

Mxmyownsummer wrote:
put christianity as X and the above statment seems fines as long as you hold christianty in a positive moral standing, however put child pornography as X and you'll see that the argument that just becuase something makes you happy doesn't make it right.


I see your point, but I'm not sure that you see mine.


i haven't missed yours; i don't agree with it becuase of it's subjectivity. just becuase you beleive something is good doesn't mean that it is. and that people shouldn't be allowed to stop you doing it. Raping makes rapist happy, and they probably think it's rather good, but that doesn't mean no one can tell them it's not.
Mxmyownsummer wrote:I wasn't talking about pedophilia, drug abuse, or any other questionable behavior, I was talking about the beliefs that we hold dear to our hearts that usually tend to make us a better person. I believe that consistently questioning your moral views on life is quite appropriate if it is done in the right way.


this is the problem; what you consider to be "beliefs that we hold dear to our hearts that usually tend to make us a better person" and "questionable behavior" are defined by your moral code, as the moral code is based on your beleifs. if your beleifs are incorrect, then what you define as "beliefs that we hold dear to our hearts that usually tend to make us a better person" and "questionable behavior" are also possibly incorrect, or inverted.

Mxmyownsummer wrote:I think you're stretching the subject matter at hand by relating religious beliefs to pedophilia. If there were a church of NAMBLA I would be wrong in saying this, but seeing as there currently is not, I think you're grasping.


not really grasping;
hopefully finding using to extreme examples of opposing morality that most of can relate to
(christian morality being semi-universally seen as good here, and pedophilic morality universally bad)


I'm not using a real world situation but an example

Mxmyownsummer wrote:I believe the question at hand was what if Christians are wrong about their beliefs in the afterlife, or if Christians are morally wrong. I think a religion that in it's purest state teaches non-violence, tolerance, and self-reflection is pretty alright. But hey.. I make circular arguments, so what I say is bunk.


of course you think that, no one practices a religion they find morally questionable.

if christian morality is wrong then everything you think is good, isn't. that's a pretty major problem.
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Postby Sagitta » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:15 am

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Was browsing the thread. Before reading the thread in full and offering a general response I did want to comment on one issue:

Cyberstrike wrote:
Operation Ravage wrote:I make no apologies for erasing holidays.


I hate to tell you this but Christianity stole Christmas from
the Pagan Romans due to Constantine wanting to convert Pagan Romans to Christianity.


While it is true that Christmas (the birth of Christ) was not listed as one of the chief Christian festivals in the first two centuries of the Christian Church's existence, it is not exactly true that the first Christians never observed the birth of Christ until the time of Constantine. Actually there is evidence of the feast being celebrated in Egypt prior to 200 A.D.

The Church father Clement of Alexandria tells us that certain theologians had claimed to have determined not only the year of the Lord's birth but also the day; that it took place in the 28th year of Augustus and on the 25th day of Pachon (May 20). He also added that others said that he was born on the 24th or 25th of Pharmuthi (April 19 or 20). Another piece of evidence is De Paschae Computus of 243, which states that Christ was born on March 28, because, it says, this was the day that the sun was created. Clement also tells us that other Christians were in the custom of celebrating the Baptism of Christ (his Epiphany) on the 15th day of Tubi and others on the 11th of the same month (Jan. 10 or 6). This is significant because it became customary in many places for Christians to celebrate both Christ's epiphany and his birth at the same – a practice of the Armenian Church to this day.

Frequently some argue that Christmas Day is a holiday that evolved from the religious cult of Mithraism--namely that that the date, December 25th, comes from the Roman emperor Aurelian's edict in A.D. 274 that established. the festival of Natale Solis Invicti (Birth of the Unconquerable Sun) as he dedicated a new temple near the Mausoleum of Augustus. The widely held belief that Christmas Day came about by Christians Christianizing sun-god worship fails to consider Christians had been celebrating Christ's birth in various areas such as the aforementioned Egypt. This was a good 30 yrs. before before Aurelians edict had ever been made. They associated Christ's birth with the Old Testament prophecy of Malachi 4:2 which called the Messiah "the sun of righteousness". If this is true Christians didn't choose Decemeber 25th to Christianize Aurelian's edict. It was quite the opposite. Aurelian was attempting to do away with a Christian Holy Day.

Also remember the edict by Aurleian was reinforced just 20 yrs. later when the Roman emperor Diocletion attempted to exterminate Christiantity from Rome in the Great Persecution of 293-305 A.D.

In the mid 4th century A.D. Christians considered March 25th as the day of Christ's birth - 9 months later - to link the actual date to his Passion and Resurrection and His conception.

An attempt to link Christmas with a pagan festival doesn't have historical support.
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Postby *Elita_One* » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:16 am

Christianity is wrong? Pfft, religion is wrong.
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Postby teroh1988 » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:59 am

IMO i think most religions lead to the same end anyways, theres no end to this argument, because the basis for belief is faith and there really isnt any concrete evidence for any one religion. Its a means to give someone meaning in life.
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Postby Sagitta » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:35 am

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(*Note: If only to clarify when I speak of the ancient Hebrew faith I am not referring to Judaism which supplements and adds to the original Torah (first 5 books of the Old Testament scriptures) with the rabbinical writings of the Talmud which were written around the 5th century A.D. )

(**Note: When referring to Christianity it's to the wrings and doctrines/teachings found within the Old and New Testaments as they are literarily read within the given context.)


In a rather strict sense, Christianity within its pure form has been present since the very beginning. The Old Testament is full of prophecies and foreshadowing of the Messiah that had been promised ever since the fall of Man into sin and rebellion. (Genesis 3:15) The ancient Hebrew peoples were chosen by God as a nation to point the rest of world towards the coming Messiah until He came and the reason for their special purpose was fulfilled. The special dietary laws, rituals, and temple sacrifices were null and void because they were no longer needed.

In His own time God worked throughout human history until the time had come for God the Son to be born. The Gospels even show Jesus going back constantly to the Old Testament scriptures to show this. One of these times was on the day of Resurrection itself when he talked to two of his followers on their way to Emmaus. He went through all of what the scriptures had to say. (Luke 24) It was by grace through faith in the coming Messiah Himself that always saved. And when the Messiah was revealed it remained by grace through faith one still had full forgiveness of sins and eternal life. Jesus lived a perfect, sinless life whereas we never could. He then paid in full for our sins where can never even hope to do so.

God is Holy and Just. He cannot accept sin and let it slide by since then He would not be God and it would be against His very nature. He is also Forgiving and Merciful because of Christ and what He has done for us. Hell was not originally created for human beings. But only for the fallen angels. Of course, when sin entered the world that all changed.

While the Old Testament looks to the coming Messiah, the New Testament reveals the Messiah...as well as looks back to Old Testament to how the "stage was set" so to speak. The Triune God, 1 God yet 3 persons, is within both the Old and New Testaments even though they are shown in different ways. The original Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic even has words which refer to God's nature to be both the singular and plural.

The center of Christianity has always remained focused on Jesus Christ and just why and for what reason He's our Savior. And for that, again, one would need to go back to the beginning. So, from a Biblical world-view there really is only one God and He created us. No other gods exist.

Many differing faith traditions cross each other out automatically. And I don't speak of just the faiths which hold to absolutes. Even those which claim themselves to be relative are absolutist in nature. This is one area where no vacuum exists. Everyone one of us has some type of world-view that influences and determines what we do, what we think, and who we are. Whatever that may be. We all have faith. The only difference it seems what is the object of that faith.

I did find it odd the title of the thread's focus solely on Christianity. While enjoying discussing matters of faith the bridge for discussion it doesn't do any good to immediately place others on the defensive. One need not agree with or even like the other person's religious beliefs. But it is achievable to still respect the other individual as a fellow human being.

As for the original question in the very first post: Hmmm. I'll only answer what Jesus said to His disciple Thomas. Something about believing without seeing.

Then again the question could easily be turned around to say "What if Christianity is right?" However there were still those in the Bible who saw all the miracles and witnessed the awe and wonder first hand. But what did it amount to? Anywhere from the recently freed Israelites from Egypt who chose to worship a golden calf to many of the religious teachers of Jesus' day who accused him of being in league with Satan himself...it shows seeing doesn't always amount to believing.

This means there's definitely something more to the equation.

For the record I'm a theologically conservative Lutheran, Young-Earth Creationist, and Amillennialist. :D
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Postby Shadowman » Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:49 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
I just learned how it's possible for God to mettle in Human Affairs.

I learned it from Futurama.

"If you do things right, people won't know you did anything at all."

God taught Bender a few lessons on life, but also denied ever helping anyone. When Bender went to save some monks Fry and Leela locked up and forgot to let out, (Very uncharacteristic for Bender) God once again said the above quote.

God basically implied that He mettles in human affairs, and does it so subtly and perfectly, that no one would know He had anything to do with it.

I'm still no Christian, but I think I believe a little more now.

Thank you, Matt Groening. You did something good.
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Postby The Time Traveller » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:32 am

I think its stupid that people still believe in God nower days, taking a book seriously for a life style could be very damaging. Besides, Christians don't even obey the Bible, they'd all go to hell anyway.
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Postby Loki120 » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:01 pm

The Time Traveller wrote:I think its stupid that people still believe in God nower days, taking a book seriously for a life style could be very damaging. Besides, Christians don't even obey the Bible, they'd all go to hell anyway.


Christianity is not based solely on the bible. But you wouldn't know that because you're so effing ignorant you just want to put your non-intelligent two-cents in wherever it doesn't really belong. Agggggg (that is the sound of me retching)
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Postby Shadowman » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:31 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
Loki120 wrote:
The Time Traveller wrote:I think its stupid that people still believe in God nower days, taking a book seriously for a life style could be very damaging. Besides, Christians don't even obey the Bible, they'd all go to hell anyway.


Christianity is not based solely on the bible. But you wouldn't know that because you're so effing ignorant you just want to put your non-intelligent two-cents in wherever it doesn't really belong. Agggggg (that is the sound of me retching)


I...agree...with Loki120?

Congratulations, it's the Apocalypse.
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Postby DesalationReborn » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:33 pm

Correction, Shadowman-- it was a satellite that collided with God... but anyway, Epicurius ruins that point for me...

To give a short response (I grow tired of long posts, only to repeat the same hundreds of times and accidently delete an hours work...), no, it's not just a book that's causing it, but it's funny what people believe when everyone around them pays heedance to the thought, especially early in life. We're very social creatures.
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Postby Shadowman » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:47 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
The Avatar of Man wrote:Correction, Shadowman-- it was a satellite that collided with God... but anyway, Epicurius ruins that point for me...


He was very vague as to that. He only said "That s probable."

And another correction, he didn't give Bender advice on conning. He said you need to use a "Light touch" so people don't become too dependant or lose hope.
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Postby Sagitta » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:35 am

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The Time Traveller" wrote: I think its stupid that people still believe in God nower days, taking a book seriously for a life style could be very damaging. Besides, Christians don't even obey the Bible, they'd all go to hell anyway.


=
life*style (līfˌstīl)
noun the way in which a person or group lives

rel*i*gion (riˈlijən)
noun the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods : ideas about the relationship between science and religion. • details of belief as taught or discussed • a particular system of faith and worship • a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance

Christian
adjective of, relating to, or professing Christianity or its teachings
noun a person who has received Christian baptism and is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings as their Lord and Savior.

The first describes how one lives. The second describes how one practices and acts as well as to what tenets. The third describes the individual and what they believe...which in turn forms a foundation for their Biblically-based world-view. Being a Christian isn't a lifestyle. It's what an individual is by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

As for obeying the Bible...the Bible does state we still sin against God and each other because we're still sinners. We're all sinners. There's no one that isn't. Only difference is the forgiveness that's offered in Jesus Christ because who He is and What He's done. Him alone. That's the heart of what the Bible itself teaches.
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Postby Professor Smooth » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:54 am

I still want to know why god hates amputees.
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Postby God Thundercracker » Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:49 am

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Christianity is wrong.
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Claiming Fox News has real journalists is like claiming Twilight has real vampires, it's just illogical.

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Postby Wigglez » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:44 am

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Noboy really knows what's going on till they die. What if there was no god, or even every god?? Who knows?? What if Lucifer himself was running everything and nobody else even existed?? Then, what would you do??
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Postby DesalationReborn » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:29 pm

wigglez323 wrote:Noboy really knows what's going on till they die.


And even then, it's pretty iffy.
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Postby Professor Smooth » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:17 pm

God Thundercracker wrote:Christianity is wrong.


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Postby Sagitta » Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:11 am

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wigglez323 wrote:Noboy really knows what's going on till they die. What if there was no god, or even every god?? Who knows?? What if Lucifer himself was running everything and nobody else even existed?? Then, what would you do??


Are you asking if there's a life after death? Do we have souls? What happens to souls after death unless all that happens is we just become a pile of dust 6 foot under? Does what we believe and what we place our faith within affect what happens? Are we accountable to Someone higher than ourselves? Those questions all logically follow.

Biblical Christianity and all its claims hinges on Jesus Christ's resurrection from the dead. 1 Corinthians 15 is a good place to look. Goes over all the wittinesses, 500 in all, who even testified seeing the risen Jesus. They were either telling the truth or they weren't.

It's somewhat like any other sort of claim or testimony made in history when we collectively look back. One either believes the witnesses of any given event, some even examine the evidence for themselves, or they don't. The claim is true or it's not.

In the end it appears "what ifs" don't really matter. Within the field of absolutes and relativism -- the latter being the doctrine that knowledge, truth, and morality exist in relation to culture, society, or historical context, and are not absolute -- relativism is also an absolute by its own nature. And one differing absolute will always cancel out the other by default. It's all it can do. :-?
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Postby Spark Light » Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:31 pm

No. You don't want Christians to be in peace. You're one of the most militant people I've met when it comes to striking back at Christians. You're just as guilty of being an idiot and closeminded as Robertson is.


See, THIS is what put me off Christians. Blatantly he's not as bad as Robertson as he's not abusing a nation-wide broadcasting system to twist people against others for the way he was born.

It's the same tactic right wingers use - You're Just as Bad as What You Hate! No, WE'RE not the bigots, you are(if they're so keen on not being bigots, then why don't they do more against discrimination?)!

Which is almost always a presumption, technically speaking, not something that's actually proved, making it a Middle Ground fallacy.

If you don't want me to be annoyed at Christians, don't use some stupid illogical tactics.
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Postby Tammuz » Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:38 pm

i try not to respond to personal insults, as even if i am as bad as I'm made out to be in that post, it doesn't detract from my arguments validity.
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Re: What if Christianity is Wrong?

Postby Sign Of The Cross » Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Shadowman wrote:Christianity. The world's biggest Religion. And only One God. But, certainly, there must've been something before Christianity?

Yes, there was. Hindu, Islam, Judaism (Which are still around), Norse, Greek, and it's remake Roman, Shinto, Buddhism, Confucianism, Rastafari, and MANY more exist and/or still exist.

What I'm saying is, what if Christianity is Wrong? What if the Norse was right, or the Hindu, or even the Greeks? What if Jesus was just a Man? What there were many Gods, instead of One? What would you do if suddenly, Odin, or Horus, or Vishnu pops out of the sky, and tell you what REALLY exists?

Keep in mind, I'm not saying anyone is wrong, I'm saying WHAT IF you're wrong?
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