The Energon Pub

Seriously? Why the backlash? Why the disrespect? I understand that Jim Shooter and Bob Budiansky at Marvel created the premise, named most of the characters and wrote their bios, and I understand that the comic was published (shortly) before the Sunbow 'toon.

I constantly see posters bash the Sunbow show, aiming at goofy storylines, inconsistent continuity, and subpar animation. AKOM's animation was indeed an abomination and the few Filipino episodes blew, too (Kremzeek, The Secrect of Omega Supreme), but Toei's work was at least above average for its time and often great, especially given the insane schedule they had to work under. The books routinely had subpar artwork, with a few notable exceptions (the Dinobots' first two issue, Geoff Senior, and Jose Delbo, as well as a few cool, iconic covers here and there). Most of the book's artists had a poor grasp on tech and mech and at best were "workmanlike" storytellers and draftsmen.

I can forgive the inconsistent and loose continuity considering that a large writing staff was creating the show by the seat of their pants without much of a bible to go by. I think it's amazing that it was as rich and coherent as it was.

As far as goofy storylines, they did have their share, though I cannot grasp how they are any sillier than those in the Marvel comics (Optimus Prime dying in a video game, for one). Speaking of the Marvel books, for all the Bay movie hate and their focus on humans and using TFs as undeveloped background fodder, the comics did the SAME THING. Buster, Sparkplug, Blackrock, and Circuit Breaker got more attention and development than nearly any TF in the first half of the book's run. I'd argue any day that the cartoon spent more time on the TFs character development than the books. (Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the old books for what they are, they do have their own charm, but most of my enjoyment stems from nostalgia)

Also, the cartoon gave us energon, Vector Sigma, Alpha Trion and the female Autobots, the Matrix, ALL of the characters that were introduced in the movie (Galvatron, Cyclonus, Scourge and the Sweeps, Kup, Ultra Magnus, Hot Rod / Rodimus, Wheelie (ok, nevermind), Sharkticons, Quintessons, Wreck Gar and the Junkions, and friggin' UNICRON!), gave OP a proper death, as well as deepened the TFs' backstory and history. Not to mention the legendary voice cast! Cullen, Welker, Latta, Burton, Berger, Chain, Bell, and Stack to name a few. Hell, I can't read a TF comic book without imagining Victor Caroli narrating it.

So why the eyerolling? Why the snobbery about other TF fiction when this show truly did lay the foundation that nearly everything that came after built on? I just don't get it.

I love the sunbow cartoon! I bet most these haters didn't grow up with it.

SentinelA wrote:I love the sunbow cartoon! I bet most these haters didn't grow up with it.

Agree. Still don't understand the hate, though. Gotta respect what came before, dated or not.

SentinelA wrote:I love the sunbow cartoon! I bet most these haters didn't grow up with it.

So true! No respect for the elders *grumble grumble*

Who, might I ask, is doing this?

Dean ML wrote:Also, the cartoon gave us energon, Vector Sigma, Alpha Trion and the female Autobots, the Matrix,

The Matrix came from the comics. As a physical item, yeah, that was from the movie. But the Matrix, period, was made by the comics.

Dean ML wrote:ALL of the characters that were introduced in the movie (Galvatron, Cyclonus, Scourge and the Sweeps, Kup, Ultra Magnus, Hot Rod / Rodimus, Wheelie (ok, nevermind), Sharkticons, Quintessons, Wreck Gar and the Junkions, and friggin' UNICRON!),

Yet, the comics gave Unicron a purpose and a meaningful history, while the cartoon just made him a non-special product of a monkey scientist.

Dean ML wrote:gave OP a proper death,

His second death in the comics, dying in a selfless act of sacrifice against Unicron and going out in a tremendous blaze of glory, still trumps pretty much any Optimus death ever made.

Dean ML wrote:as well as deepened the TFs' backstory and history.

And the comics didn't do that? The Primus creation origin overtook the Quintesson creation origin in most post-G1 series.

Dean ML wrote:So why the eyerolling? Why the snobbery about other TF fiction when this show truly did lay the foundation that nearly everything that came after built on? I just don't get it.

It "helped" lay the foundation, but didn't do it by itself, as I've pointed out in above examples. It was a team effort with the comics and the cartoon both contributing to the lore together.

As for the question, again, care to cite some examples of this G1 toon bashing you speak of?

I think region plays a huge role here. In the UK, for a long time all they had were the comics and a handful of G1 episodes on VHS, so the UK Marvel continuity was all they knew. They didn't have Transformers on TV in the UK in the 80s, so it was irrelevant to them.

As for 'why all the hate' in general, it depends on which 'hater' you ask I suppose. It's an opinion so it's a hard point to argue in any definitive way (just as yours is, no matter how much love you have for the cartoon).

Hell, I'm a huge G1 fan even though I can barely stomach watching it now, realizing in my old age of 33 that the stories, voice acting, animation, characterization and countless other things would be considered sub-par compared to many more modern TV shows, but as a kid I loved it.

Hell, the reason Beast Wars is my favorite show is due in large part to the fact that it contains so many nods and tie-ins to the G1 show.

But trying to argue that others' opinions are unjustified is just as pointless as trying to argue politics or any other matter of pure opinion.

Sabrblade wrote:It was a team effort with the comics and the cartoon both contributing to the lore together.

I agree 100% with you. I was 13 when G1 debuted and I read the comics and watched the toon and loved what both brought to the beginnings of the Transformers legacy.

I still watch the G1 toons as silly and bad (Bad... carnage in C Minor.. ahem..) as some of the stories were they are still fun. And I read through the comics all the time.

xyl360 wrote:I think region plays a huge role here. In the UK, for a long time all they had were the comics and a handful of G1 episodes on VHS, so the UK Marvel continuity was all they knew. They didn't have Transformers on TV in the UK in the 80s, so it was irrelevant to them.

Sorry, but that is wrong on both counts. We got all of the US stories as well as the UK stories in the weekly comic, and we also got the Cartoon. If anything, we had a greater appreciation of the comics because we got over twice the material the guys in the USA ever did, including extensive appearances of the Movie cast way before the US comic.

The cartoon is flawed, as are the comics, but on balance the comics were more important to me than any events of the cartoon, with the sole exception being the Movie, which was far superior to the TV episodes in every respect. At least with comics, a good story will shine through bad artwork. The few good stories in the cartoon were hampered by poor execution, whether it be dialogue, animation errors, rushed drawings, poor attention to continuity and an some cases all of the above. The original 3-parter was good, as were some of the season 2 '1 shots'. Season 3 was bonkers and Season 4 madly rushed and condensed into a few paltry episodes.

Banjo-Tron wrote:

xyl360 wrote:I think region plays a huge role here. In the UK, for a long time all they had were the comics and a handful of G1 episodes on VHS, so the UK Marvel continuity was all they knew. They didn't have Transformers on TV in the UK in the 80s, so it was irrelevant to them.

Sorry, but that is wrong on both counts. We got all of the US stories as well as the UK stories in the weekly comic, and we also got the Cartoon. If anything, we had a greater appreciation of the comics because we got over twice the material the guys in the USA ever did, including extensive appearances of the Movie cast way before the US comic.

Wow, really? My friend from the UK is the one who told me this. I guess he was mistaken.

xyl360 wrote:

Banjo-Tron wrote:

xyl360 wrote:I think region plays a huge role here. In the UK, for a long time all they had were the comics and a handful of G1 episodes on VHS, so the UK Marvel continuity was all they knew. They didn't have Transformers on TV in the UK in the 80s, so it was irrelevant to them.

Sorry, but that is wrong on both counts. We got all of the US stories as well as the UK stories in the weekly comic, and we also got the Cartoon. If anything, we had a greater appreciation of the comics because we got over twice the material the guys in the USA ever did, including extensive appearances of the Movie cast way before the US comic.

Wow, really? My friend from the UK is the one who told me this. I guess he was mistaken.

You know what, in retrospect he may well be half right, regarding the cartoon, we definitely got Season 1, I distinctly remember watching it on a rubbish programme called 'Wacaday', it was the only reason I watched it. That was in 1985 I think. Not sure about the later seasons, but I used to rent the videos out which had selected episodes from Seasons 2, 3 and 4. But in terms of the entire cartoon? Maybe we didn't get it. I'm confused now! My point regarding the comics still stands though

Banjo-Tron wrote:

xyl360 wrote:

Banjo-Tron wrote:

xyl360 wrote:I think region plays a huge role here. In the UK, for a long time all they had were the comics and a handful of G1 episodes on VHS, so the UK Marvel continuity was all they knew. They didn't have Transformers on TV in the UK in the 80s, so it was irrelevant to them.

Sorry, but that is wrong on both counts. We got all of the US stories as well as the UK stories in the weekly comic, and we also got the Cartoon. If anything, we had a greater appreciation of the comics because we got over twice the material the guys in the USA ever did, including extensive appearances of the Movie cast way before the US comic.

Wow, really? My friend from the UK is the one who told me this. I guess he was mistaken.

You know what, in retrospect he may well be half right, regarding the cartoon, we definitely got Season 1, I distinctly remember watching it on a rubbish programme called 'Wacaday', it was the only reason I watched it. That was in 1985 I think. Not sure about the later seasons, but I used to rent the videos out which had selected episodes from Seasons 2, 3 and 4. But in terms of the entire cartoon? Maybe we didn't get it. I'm confused now! My point regarding the comics still stands though

Thanks to the miracle of Satellite TV I was able to watch all kinds of channels, usually in English like The Children's Channel and Sky One. And I'm happy to say, all 4 seasons were broadcast there, including Generation 2, plus a re-run of Season 2 to coincide with the Classics reissues of 1990/1991

I am trying my darnedest to find it, but am having extreme difficulty finding a quote from either Simon Furman or James Roberts that mentioned how limited and briefly the G1 cartoon aired in the UK, leading to the Marvel UK comics ultimately becoming the definitive G1 continuity for the UK.

Sabrblade wrote:I am trying my darnedest to find it, but am having extreme difficulty finding a quote from either Simon Furman or James Roberts that mentioned how limited and briefly the G1 cartoon aired in the UK, leading to the Marvel UK comics ultimately becoming the definitive G1 continuity for the UK.

Lol if anyone can find it, you will! I have tried to find the original UK air dates but to no avail! The quote might be in one of the IDW 'classics UK' books.

Banjo-Tron wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:I am trying my darnedest to find it, but am having extreme difficulty finding a quote from either Simon Furman or James Roberts that mentioned how limited and briefly the G1 cartoon aired in the UK, leading to the Marvel UK comics ultimately becoming the definitive G1 continuity for the UK.

Lol if anyone can find it, you will! I have tried to find the original UK air dates but to no avail! The quote might be in one of the IDW 'classics UK' books.

That's what I was looking in, but there's just so much text in them that it really makes me wish physical books had a "Ctrl+F" quick search function like computer browsers do.

I even tried looking on the "TransFormation" pages of some old Marvel UK comic issue scans I have, but that got exhausting real quick.

Also checked Simon Furman's "Transformers: The Ultimate Guide" book's sections on the UK comics, yet no luck there either.

It's really frustrating when you know something from having seen/read/heard about it, but cannot for the love of all that is good in this world find the original source you saw/read/heard it from.

Cyber Bishop wrote:I still watch the G1 toons as silly and bad (Bad... carnage in C Minor.. ahem..) as some of the stories were they are still fun.

I know everyones entitled to their opinions, but why does everyone rag on "Carnage in C Minor"? I adore this season 3 episode, and the vhs I had of this which was paired with "Ultimate Weapon" got played to death because I love both episodes so much.

ThunderThruster wrote:

Cyber Bishop wrote:I still watch the G1 toons as silly and bad (Bad... carnage in C Minor.. ahem..) as some of the stories were they are still fun.

I know everyones entitled to their opinions, but why does everyone rag on "Carnage in C Minor"? I adore this season 3 episode, and the vhs I had of this which was paired with "Ultimate Weapon" got played to death because I love both episodes so much.

It's an AKOM episode, which means "Animation Error Central".

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

ThunderThruster wrote:

Cyber Bishop wrote:I still watch the G1 toons as silly and bad (Bad... carnage in C Minor.. ahem..) as some of the stories were they are still fun.

I know everyones entitled to their opinions, but why does everyone rag on "Carnage in C Minor"? I adore this season 3 episode, and the vhs I had of this which was paired with "Ultimate Weapon" got played to death because I love both episodes so much.

It's an AKOM episode, which means "Animation Error Central".

Plus the whole "planet of musical people that no one other than Soundwave/Blaster can communicate with except for when they suddenly can" thing was handled pretty roughly.

Carnage in C-Minor is actually a fun episode to watch as an adult. Wait, isn't he dead? Wait, how can Hot Spot be standing next to Defensor? Scale, what scale?

Delicon wrote:Carnage in C-Minor is actually a fun episode to watch as an adult. Wait, isn't he dead? Wait, how can Hot Spot be standing next to Defensor? Scale, what scale?

Take a drink for every animation error you spot in that episode, and you'll be dead halfway in.

As a rule of thumb, I ignore episodes with aliens in it (excluding the Transformers themselves, and other robots) and then you are left with mostly good episodes.

For example, what the hell was the one with the space castle or whatever, when Autobots were riding horses, or the one when Ultra Magnus et al were turned into dungaree-toting humans? There's a reason why certain episodes are (rightly) derided as being dreadful. I think 'club con' and 'carwash of doom' are probably the worst two Generation 1 comic stories but they are far superior to a majority of the cartoon episodes

(IMO, of course)

Banjo-Tron wrote:or the one when Ultra Magnus et al were turned into dungaree-toting humans?

But that was the G.I. Joe crossover episode with Cobra Commander.

Banjo-Tron wrote:I think 'club con' and 'carwash of doom' are probably the worst two Generation 1 comic stories but they are far superior to a majority of the cartoon episodes

(IMO, of course)

Oh, I can think of several other Marvel G1 issues that were far worse than those two.

Banjo-Tron wrote:For example, what the hell was the one with the space castle or whatever, when Autobots were riding horses,

Can't say I recall that episode!

ThunderThruster wrote:

Banjo-Tron wrote:For example, what the hell was the one with the space castle or whatever, when Autobots were riding horses,

Can't say I recall that episode!

A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court? Madman's Paradise? Love Madman's Paradise.

I love the old show, sure it's incredibility stupid and flawed but it's still fun.
For me that's still the definite version of G1, I tried getting into the Marvel comics but the artwork disgusts me and the writing is mostly, well not really up to the standard of the times. The 80s had great comics, but Transformers sure wasn't one of them.
So far the only 80s comics I've actually bothered to finish in one go without groaning every two pages are the few UK stories I bothered to try.

But yea, both the comics and the cartoon are actually pretty bad, each have their unforgivable low points, and a few standout good moments, but they're both mostly bad. It's just that we grew up with one or the other or both and the fond memories we associate with them that make them "good" to us. Basically nostalgia.

So really, arguing over what's the better incarnation is silly, as is complaining about the "haters", because they likely only learned of them after already being introduced to this Franchise after enjoying their own nostalgic incarnation.

recently did a big re-read of much of the UK run of comics. found myself doing little more than skimming the US-originated stories so I could get to the good stuff. And some of those books were marvellous.

But, there are some awesome episodes of the cartoon as well. The Bruticus/Combaticons 2-parter, as well as the Aerialbots and Stunticon's being built, then the 'bots getting sent back to the start of the war, the whole thing with Silverbolt becoming the leader of the team? great! Some eps are enjoyable because they've got great animation, and some are enjoyable because of the story and in spite of terrible animation.

I like a lot of the Season 3 stuff, maybe because those were the ones airing on Sky after school at a time when one of my friends had satellite tv, so I got to see them. The rest was really reliant upon VHS tapes, and I must have rented those from the shops so many times, I still don't know why my parents didn't just buy me them. Would have saved them a lot of money in the long run! Only Human, where Magnus, Rodimus, Springer and Arcee become sort of human and get conveniently colour-coded dungarees is actually a lot of fun. Rodimus totally gets it on with a gangster's trophy wife/girlfriend off-screen.

Basically, I think both comics and cartoon probably have an equal proportion of terrible stories, as they do good stories. But, I can't imagine why anyone would hate on the toon, because for all the bad stuff in it, every episode (or near enough) has Optimus Prime, Megatron, Starscream, Soundwave and some other guys, all with their iconic voice acting. And that theme song! I honestly don't know what to think if you're hating on something that gave us those voices and that music!

(never mind that the animated movie is one of my favourite films of all time!)