The Energon Pub

Here is an interesting query. Why the hell is anyone worried about the value of a toy? How many times have we said on this board that Transformers isn't an investment it is a hobby? If you want to invest your money in something buy stock or realestate. Ok, maybe not right now but you know what I mean.

The value of the Botcon seekers shouldn't be at all important unless you're planning to sell them and make some money. And if that is your goal you're collecting for entirely the wrong reasons. Me personally, I like this developement. I wanted the Botcon set but I didn't think I would have the money to spare at the time. Then I recalculated and found out I would and they were sold out. So I missed out. And I knew that getting them on eBay or BBTS or anywhere else was out the door since the prices would skyrocket. So I accepted it and moved on. Now I have a chance to get a slightly different version of the mold. And I preordered them as soon as I saw them.

I don't care if the Botcon set is devalued. I don't care if they are some of the most expensive toys in my collection. Don't really care what any of my toys are worth on the secondary market in fact. I have plenty of Masterpiece and Alternators and such. Swerve is apparently worth about $100, but I'm not selling him because I like the Corvette mold. I like most of you have several fairly rare figures in my collection. But I have them because I found them and wanted them and nothing more. If you're really concerned about the value of your toys on the secondary market then maybe the problem isn't exclusivity but you.

Koloth wrote:Here is an interesting query. Why the hell is anyone worried about the value of a toy?

If you're really concerned about the value of your toys on the secondary market then maybe the problem isn't exclusivity but you.

Um...no. I don't have plans to sell any of my Transformers, ever. But I still like to think that if I'd hit dire straights I had a little emergency fund in their resale value. Ultimately if I buy something for a greater price in the belief that it has greater value (due to exclusivity or whatever) I'd be upset if it then got cheapened or massmarketed. I've very rarely spent an over-the-top amount on Transformers but if I were someone who ever did I think I'd've been pretty upset by your post.

Diem wrote:I've very rarely spent an over-the-top amount on Transformers but if I were someone who ever did I think I'd've been pretty upset by your post.

It is meant to be upsetting. But not for the reason you seem to think. It is upsetting because it forces people to re-evaluate their buying habits. And anytime you make people re-evaluate themselves it is going to upset them because they will either realise they miscalculated or they will feel you are judging them.

So I'm completely aware that there will be some people mad at me to pointing out the flaw in their argument and some people praising me for pointing it out. And perhaps even a few that flat out disagree with me. But no matter how you feel about it I meant for it to be abbrasive to those complaining about "exclusivity and value".

Koloth,

In regards to your question, I don't think that there are actually very many people worried about the monetary value of the BotCon set.

BotCon pretty much promises that for all your effort (in time, travel, and money) that you are walking away with a special set of toys. I think that why many people were bothered by the whole fiasco is that the value of the exclusive nature of the toys is diminished.

Don't shoot me, the messenger, for saying that now...

Counterpunch wrote:BotCon pretty much promises that for all your effort (in time, travel, and money) that you are walking away with a special set of toys.

And you still are, the Henkei set is clearly different. Different mold, different paint scheme. The Botcon set is differenciated a number of ways. Including having two additional characters that Henkei has yet to release, and it is doubtful they will.

So you still get your "special limited edition set" and the people that didn't get the remolds. The "value" of owning the Botcon set is all in personal preference. But I have seen several people in this thread mention the dropping monetary value of the Botcon set. Which would seem to indicate they care more about its worth than what they have. The diminished worth though is of course because now there is an alternative.

Also I seem to remember that I or someone else stated two years ago that Takara would release a remolded version of these two. Everyone seemed to agrue against it at the time. Because the wing mold was part of the exclusive deal. I knew they would find a way around it. Didn't know how or when, but I knew a set that popular wasn't going to be left undone.

Koloth and Counterpunch,

Your discussion is much too interesting to let go.

I fall squarely into the category that Koloth described. I buy TF's that I want to have in my collection. I buy them and imediately open them and enjoy them. They are reminders of things that I had (or couldn't afford) as a kid. I buy them for what value they hold for me.

Some collectors buy them as investment peices. It amazes me how much some of these peices sell for in the secondary market. Buying TF's for them is a buisness, and a lucrative one at that.

If someone is willing to pay through the nose to own a valued item, that is entirely up to them. Who are we to say what a something is worth to an individual?

Am I upset that I probably won't have Thrust and Dirge? Sure. The seekers were great. However the money that is being charged for a now "not so exclusive" set seems out of the question to me. But, if people are willing to pay the money, someone is going to sell, whether there is one set (botcon) or two.

Since when does it make you less of a fan for enjoying the fact that a figure has a high market value? I think for the most part people like to own things that have a certain worth attached to them. I have no intentions of selling my Botcon seekers, but when others check out my collection one of their first questions is usually which ones are the most valueable? It's kind of fun to point out the three seekers and say well those three could cost up to $1000.00. Guess I'm just a "bad" collector.

El Duque wrote:Guess I'm just a "bad" collector.

No, only if you bought them because you knew they would be expensive and you planned to sell them later on and are now upset that they are diminishing in monetary value. Just having something expensive and knowing it doesn't make you a bad collector. But buying them as an "investment" does. Toys aren't an investment.

As I said I have Alternator Swerve. I know he is at least a $100 figure. But I don't care. I didn't buy him because I thought he would be valuable. In fact I bought him because he came with the sticker that I wanted to put on Tracks and I like the Corvette mold. It is just random chance that he is worth anything and I would still have him and enjoy him regardless.

It is the same with any of my other figures. I bought them because I had the money and I wanted them. If I had had the money at the time I would have bought the Botcon set too. And I for one would be completely unaffected by the fact that Henkei is now releasing an alternate version. Because I don't care what the monetary value of my figures are. I care only that I have them because I wanted them. Hell that's why I have nearly the entire Cobra high command on top of my PC and not the Joe's. Because I like Cobra better and I wanted to complete a particular set. Now if Hasbro would just release Mindbender I would be content.

Koloth wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:BotCon pretty much promises that for all your effort (in time, travel, and money) that you are walking away with a special set of toys.

And you still are, the Henkei set is clearly different.

No.

It's not and if it were so clearly different, then it wouldn't be as desirable.

What has really begun to irritate me in all of this two year long discussion, is the near complete lack of concession on the part of those who did not buy the BotCon set.

You know, with the exception of when I gave certain people a hard time (because they were taking an offensively hard-line on the matter), I (and most others) have been perfectly reasonable in at least understanding the other side's point of view.

Collecting is a hobby and if we're going to accept this that or any old reason for doing it, then we need to accept them all. Some people collect toys for the monetary value and some for the exclusivity. Some people collect transformers because they like transformers and some because they just like robots.

So before we "Clearly" establish anything and in doing so make the determination that anyone who collects exclusives because they are actually exclusive, is inherently somehow bad and not a "TRUE FAN", let's at least consider the opposing argument and allow this otherwise civil discourse to be more than the slop swill it always turns into.

Now with that being said.

I honestly do not mind this release coming out. I own the BotCon set and I encouraged people to get it in 07 just like I'll encourage people to get the Henkei's now.

I, intend to have both sets because I, am a completist. I think it's fair and right for Japan and our overseas neighbors to have the same opportunity to own an exclusive set of Seekers, just as the US did. I expect that we should have increased opportunity to get our hands on Japanese exclusive toys now.

I also expect a whole lot of people to look back and change their minds to my point of view on this when and if all these Seekers hit a mass market release.

For those of you that don't agree with me now, how will you argue your side of things when next year the new movie hits, more fans come into the hobby and demand a bite at the apple. Should they get the toys you paid $80 a piece for at retail cost? If they should get that opportunity...why won't you wait to do exactly that?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The BotCon Set's value will go right back up in a year or two. They're still going to be rarer (and therefore more coveted in certain circles) than the Henkeis. While I missed out on the BotCon Set, and thus was elated by the release of Henkei Seekers, I can totally understand the owners of the BotCon Set being a bit upset right now. For almost two years they've been in this very small exclusive club of "We got all 6 Seekers!" and now they have to move over and make room. But take heart, BotCon Seeker Owners, be patient. In two years, someone will say to you "Yay! I finally got the last Henkei Seeker, my collection is complete!" and you can reply "Ha. Mine are from BotCon. You shoulda been there."

Counterpunch wrote:No.

It's not and if it were so clearly different, then it wouldn't be as desirable.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how they aren't clearly different? Admittedly there is little difference between Botcon and Henkei Thundercracker. But there is very little you could do different with the same mold and slightly different paint scheme.

Dirge and Thrust on the other hand have clearly different wing molds. Dirge is actually unique rather than being a repaint of Ramjet. While Thrust has the VOTL thrusters on the rear wings rather than the regular wings. They are going to be different from the Botcon designs.

They are desirable because they allow people to complete the set one way or another. And for many that alone is enough reason to get them. Just as it was enough reason for people to buy the Botcon set if they could afford it.

Koloth wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:No.

It's not and if it were so clearly different, then it wouldn't be as desirable.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how they aren't clearly different?

This was my point entirely.

*sighs* This discussion always breaks down into one thing. The haves versus the have nots. Just so we're clear I was broke and couldn't afford to go to Botcon for Games of Deception. Nor could I have afforded the $250ish price for just the set to be shipped to my house. Did I want the toys? Yes.

But here's the twist. I didn't want them just because they were convention exclusives, I have a couple in my collection and I love them dearly but I bought them not for rarity, but because I wanted the characters. Now I've seen a lot of people toss around how Hasbro lied to them about the exclusivity of a three year old convention set. But what about the lies they told everyone before the set came out?

Anyone remember those? The ones about how they couldn't turn a profit on releasing another Seeker or Conehead mold?



So you don't hear us complaining about how Skywarp has a Henkei figure (Target exclusive in a two pack with Ultra Magnus). No what you hear is the outcry of fans saying that completing a line inside of a convention was wrong. And no this isn't like past Botcons toys where they used G1 characters (IE Ironhide and Ratchet), because they were never intended for the Universe or Energon toy lines.

Also it takes a feat of sizable gullibility to outright think that TakaraTomy isn't going to release 6 of the most popular characters in the fandom in their market. Thundercracker has different paint applications, his coloring is different. Thrust and Dirge are remolded and have different missiles. Oh and the chrome on all of them.

I can't understand why people are getting so angry about toys. It sounds like a bunch of children fighting in the backyard over who gets what toy. I could care less what rarity the Henkei Seekers and Coneheads are. I want a comlete matching set of Seekers and Coneheads. Why? Because I like the characters and I want my armies to be as complete as possible. And I'll take the cheapest way to do it now, and still be satisfactory to me.

That's what it boils down to really. People want the toys to either play with or display. And spending around $1000 to get the Botcon set to complete their Classics line is above most people's means. Especially given the current economy.

People are saying the term exclusive was misused. No it wasn't. For toy collecting "exclusive" means that you can only get or purchase it from a certain place at a certain time. The Botcon Games of Deception set has not been reissued. One figure from it was released over in Japan using a different color scheme and chrome. Two characters from it were released with completely different molds, missiles, and chrome. And none of them were released inside of Botcon boxes. No they were released (or in the case of the Seekers about to be released) in the same boxes that Deluxe class Henkei toys are. What does that mean and why is it important? Carded and Boxed toys drastically lose value when opened.

The majority of people buying the Henkei toys aren't doing it for an envestment. No they're doing it because they want the toys for their collections. I fail to see how that's wrong. I'm not one to tell people how to enjoy their toys, but the whole speculator way of collection (IE buying toys because they might be rare and valuable someday) is bad.

Why? Speculator collecting is what almost killed the mainstream comic book industry in the 90s. Why? Because speculators bought the hell out of the comics giving the companies a false idea of actual sales. When they turned around and tried to sell their new comics, they discovered they weren't worth as much as they thought they were. Honestly toys should be enjoyed. It's a hobby. You should only buy a toy if it puts a smile on your face. Whether or not you open it afterward is irrelevant.

tl;dr : We're arguing on the internet like children about toys. We're taking this way to seriously. Can't we just enjoy the toys?

Well said, sir!

Here! Here!

I wish Hasbro would release that Henkei Wildrider in the US as a store exclusive or something. I missed the boat on him, and from what I can tell it would be the same situation only in reverse.

El Duque wrote:I wish Hasbro would release that Henkei Wildrider in the US as a store exclusive or something. I missed the boat on him, and from what I can tell it would be the same situation only in reverse.

Hasbro could toss him in one of those Limited Edition boxes they have for the 4 Universe Deluxe repaints and call it a day. And it'd be an added incentive to buy Dragstrip. Because next in line would be Wildrider. Repaint Sideswipe into Breakdown and do the same. Release a Classics Jazz and then repaint it into Dead End. Then a new scupt for an Ultra Class Motormaster in the Universe Classics line. Then for the hell of it release it as a boxed set in like Wal-Mart or something.

Sledge wrote:Also, why aren't people complaining about ehobby rereleasing Sunstorm? Wasn't he an exclusive? Surely that's one worth getting worked up about, seeing as it's exactly the same toy.

E-hobby is an e-hobby exclusive. E-hobby is selling their exclusive again. They never said it was limited. BotCon sets were available in a stated limited quantity.

Koloth wrote:Here is an interesting query. Why the hell is anyone worried about the value of a toy? How many times have we said on this board that Transformers isn't an investment it is a hobby? If you want to invest your money in something buy stock or realestate. Ok, maybe not right now but you know what I mean.

It's not abut value to me It's about the challenge of getting a figure. Seriously, there are so many Transformers, that something limited or exclusive makes it challenging to get, which makes it more exciting. It's nice to save up for something that you really want, vs. finding everything in a store.

Counterpunch wrote:

Koloth wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:BotCon pretty much promises that for all your effort (in time, travel, and money) that you are walking away with a special set of toys.

And you still are, the Henkei set is clearly different.

No.

It's not and if it were so clearly different, then it wouldn't be as desirable.

People are using the minor differences to justify that BotCon set owners shouldn't be mad. Unless you are one of the rare people who thing a misapplied paint application on a figure creates a new and distinct figure. I'm sure if you went up to someone who knew nothing about TFs and showed them both figures, they would say they were the same.

Merc With A Mouth wrote:No what you hear is the outcry of fans saying that completing a line inside of a convention was wrong. And no this isn't like past Botcons toys where they used G1 characters (IE Ironhide and Ratchet), because they were never intended for the Universe or Energon toy lines.

Um, then why do you complain for all the other lines that didn't have a full set of seekers? And what makes a set, because G1 had them? Ans how do you know what they inteded? I think it is selfish to think that you deserve all that you want. At the time HASBRO DID NOT INTEND TO MAKE MORE CLASSICS (or so the say), so it was actually great of them to give some the opportunity to get them.

Merc With A Mouth wrote:

El Duque wrote:I wish Hasbro would release that Henkei Wildrider in the US as a store exclusive or something. I missed the boat on him, and from what I can tell it would be the same situation only in reverse.

Hasbro could toss him in one of those Limited Edition boxes they have for the 4 Universe Deluxe repaints and call it a day. And it'd be an added incentive to buy Dragstrip. Because next in line would be Wildrider. Repaint Sideswipe into Breakdown and do the same. Release a Classics Jazz and then repaint it into Dead End. Then a new scupt for an Ultra Class Motormaster in the Universe Classics line. Then for the hell of it release it as a boxed set in like Wal-Mart or something.

Now that would be sweet.

GetterDragun wrote:

Merc With A Mouth wrote:No what you hear is the outcry of fans saying that completing a line inside of a convention was wrong. And no this isn't like past Botcons toys where they used G1 characters (IE Ironhide and Ratchet), because they were never intended for the Universe or Energon toy lines.

Um, then why do you complain for all the other lines that didn't have a full set of seekers? And what makes a set, because G1 had them? Ans how do you know what they inteded? I think it is selfish to think that you deserve all that you want. At the time HASBRO DID NOT INTEND TO MAKE MORE CLASSICS (or so the say), so it was actually great of them to give some the opportunity to get them.

EXACTLY. The premise at the time was that WE WOULD NEVER SEE THESE FIGURES ANY OTHER WAY, forget what everyone thought they knew was going to happen down the road. And if the distinction is going to be made that people should be happy just to get the characters to complete the set, then that completely shoots the entire argument of the Henkei releases being different down the toilet. Then the "exclusive" label means even less--because, for all the differences between the Botcon set and the Henkei releases, they're the exact same characters. Exclusivity completely gone.

Sorry some see these long discussions as "children arguing about toys," but I love reading these threads. Call me crazy, but doesn't this all just demonstrate a passion for something that we all have a part of rather than a spoiled child's mentality? Since when is it wrong to feel strongly about something, if it can be put out in a civil discussion (which, overall, this has been)? Stay away from the thread if all the big people talking offends you. Personally, I see the discussion of these issues to be the mature thing--it's the taking offense that's got to go.

Merc With A Mouth wrote:*sighs* This discussion always breaks down into one thing. The haves versus the have nots. Just so we're clear I was broke and couldn't afford to go to Botcon for Games of Deception. Nor could I have afforded the $250ish price for just the set to be shipped to my house. Did I want the toys? Yes.

But here's the twist. I didn't want them just because they were convention exclusives, I have a couple in my collection and I love them dearly but I bought them not for rarity, but because I wanted the characters. Now I've seen a lot of people toss around how Hasbro lied to them about the exclusivity of a three year old convention set. But what about the lies they told everyone before the set came out?

Anyone remember those? The ones about how they couldn't turn a profit on releasing another Seeker or Conehead mold?



So you don't hear us complaining about how Skywarp has a Henkei figure (Target exclusive in a two pack with Ultra Magnus). No what you hear is the outcry of fans saying that completing a line inside of a convention was wrong. And no this isn't like past Botcons toys where they used G1 characters (IE Ironhide and Ratchet), because they were never intended for the Universe or Energon toy lines.

Also it takes a feat of sizable gullibility to outright think that TakaraTomy isn't going to release 6 of the most popular characters in the fandom in their market. Thundercracker has different paint applications, his coloring is different. Thrust and Dirge are remolded and have different missiles. Oh and the chrome on all of them.

I can't understand why people are getting so angry about toys. It sounds like a bunch of children fighting in the backyard over who gets what toy. I could care less what rarity the Henkei Seekers and Coneheads are. I want a comlete matching set of Seekers and Coneheads. Why? Because I like the characters and I want my armies to be as complete as possible. And I'll take the cheapest way to do it now, and still be satisfactory to me.

That's what it boils down to really. People want the toys to either play with or display. And spending around $1000 to get the Botcon set to complete their Classics line is above most people's means. Especially given the current economy.

People are saying the term exclusive was misused. No it wasn't. For toy collecting "exclusive" means that you can only get or purchase it from a certain place at a certain time. The Botcon Games of Deception set has not been reissued. One figure from it was released over in Japan using a different color scheme and chrome. Two characters from it were released with completely different molds, missiles, and chrome. And none of them were released inside of Botcon boxes. No they were released (or in the case of the Seekers about to be released) in the same boxes that Deluxe class Henkei toys are. What does that mean and why is it important? Carded and Boxed toys drastically lose value when opened.

The majority of people buying the Henkei toys aren't doing it for an envestment. No they're doing it because they want the toys for their collections. I fail to see how that's wrong. I'm not one to tell people how to enjoy their toys, but the whole speculator way of collection (IE buying toys because they might be rare and valuable someday) is bad.

Why? Speculator collecting is what almost killed the mainstream comic book industry in the 90s. Why? Because speculators bought the hell out of the comics giving the companies a false idea of actual sales. When they turned around and tried to sell their new comics, they discovered they weren't worth as much as they thought they were. Honestly toys should be enjoyed. It's a hobby. You should only buy a toy if it puts a smile on your face. Whether or not you open it afterward is irrelevant.

tl;dr : We're arguing on the internet like children about toys. We're taking this way to seriously. Can't we just enjoy the toys?

...

I love you.

And agree 100%

Counterpunch wrote:

Koloth wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:BotCon pretty much promises that for all your effort (in time, travel, and money) that you are walking away with a special set of toys.

And you still are, the Henkei set is clearly different.

No.

It's not and if it were so clearly different, then it wouldn't be as desirable.

Ok, how is it not different? Seriously, not just trolling here.

The molds for Thrust and Dirge are different. FP supposedly destroyed the ones they used. Takatomy made new ones. The changes have been noted, and commented on. Henkei Dirge is apparently more pleasing than the Botcon one, and Henkei Thrust is not as nice. So honestly, I'm not getting it, how does this affect the exclusivity of the Botcon set? It's my understanding that it's the toy that's exclusive, not the character, given that FP has released Prime, Megatron, Grimlock, etc. So, the Henkei toys are different. The molds have been changed, and I will be surprised if the paint apps aren't different as well. Can you explain to me, politely please, how the Botcon set is no longer exclusive?

I'm not buying any of them, even the Henkei versions cost more than I'm willing to spend on this mold, but I honestly don't get the "The Botcon set is no longer exclusive!" argument. Yes, it is. To a collector, the difference is clear. The non-collector on the street may not be able to tell the difference, but then how many them are going to be looking at $80-and-up Classic seekers?