Seibertron wrote:Had the 3rd party companies just stuck to creating accessories for official Hasbro products, I would have continued my support for those products as well. I was really excited about City Commander back in the day, and for those of you who recall, we had the world exclusive gallery premiere of that set which was a pretty amazing set back in 2008. Had 3rd party companies continued down that path, I would have been fine with it because it's like buying aftermarket accessories for cars. Companies that make aftermarket products for cars don't make their own cars that are rip-offs of Corvettes, Town and Countries, Thunderbirds, Challengers, Lamborghinis, VW Bugs, etc. If there was a clear-cut way to support the products that require the official Transformers products but not support the products that you can by-pass Hasbro and Takara's products, I would be onboard, but it's too difficult to support one without supporting the other so it's just easier to take a stance against all of it for the time being.
You would've continued your support of 3rd party... I'll address that below in a moment. As for this next part, it pertains to the line I bolded in your response.
There are many items that 3rd party produces that require the HasTak original item in a clear-cut manner. The DMY Pharonic kit for PRID Megatron, for example. It's a bunch of pieces in a box, those pieces clearly need the Hasbro figure for them to work.
The Perfect Effect Menasor and Superion add-on kits, you absolutely need the Hasbro product to make these pieces work. They're useless otherwise. As I said, that set is getting me to consider buying Hasbro's Menasor, and I already have a great Menasor (FP's) in my collection.
Those are just two very good examples and proof that you can support 3rd party without hurting Hasbro's bottom line and not be a traitor. Reprolabels prints out sticker sheets with official Hasbro logos slapped all over them, all the time and nobody bats an eye. That bugs me because it's incredibly hypocritical. I'm glad Reprolabels is in business, don't get me wrong, but to support them when they technically fall into knock off territory and ignore and hate 3rd party which doesn't knock items off in a lot of their offerings just makes no sense to me and people who sit there on their high horse and tell me about myself just anger me to no end. Such as below in the next segment.
Before we get to that next segment...
You can pick and choose what you consider legit 3rd party, such as accessories and what you don't consider legit, such as full figures that are an "homage" of a character. That's basically throwing the baby out with the bathwater, it's extremism that isn't needed.
Oh and it could be argued that City Commander will cut into Hasbro's profits for the upcoming Combiner Wars Ultra Magnus. Some collectors will say they find FP's version to be far superior, some (like me) don't like the Minimus Ambus aspect of it (fortunately, he's not required to make it work) and some will say "Eh, I have this one already, I ain't spendin' another $50.00 on the same guy. Nah." It's an accessory, sure, but it takes one figure and entirely makes another, which technically renders CW UM moot for some.
Can't have both your cake and eat it too, with that argument.
Seibertron wrote:It's sad to see so many fans staunchly defending 3rd party products. What's even more bizarre to me is that many of you think you have a right to those products. It's odd that it's so black and white to myself and to others yet so muddied for everyone else. The "as long as I get what I want to get regardless of how I get it" attitude that is so prevalent amongst 3rd party collectors baffles me.
You know what baffles me? That you (and others who share your opinion) feel you have the right to judge your fellow fans and collectors because they do things differently from you. It's sad to see a fan decry 3rd party, and stop promoting it, but continues to keep the galleries of past 3rd party products alive. I'd think if one were to truly take a stand against 3rd parties, they'd do it in whole, not just part of the way. Let me make it clear: This is not a dig, this is not an attack, it's pointing out a hypocrisy that makes zero sense and has frustrated me and many (I do mean many) others.
Yet, you and others of the same mindset can sit there and call what we do sad and bizarre and entitled. We're all sad, bizarre and entitled, even you. The majority of us are adults either living with a significant other, or a family member and we have more toys than most stores. We watch cartoons, we watch movies based on cartoons, we read comics based on toys and cartoons. We even wear apparel and modify our bodies to show that we do just that. But, instead of trying to make others feel bad about this, why not embrace it? The world *IS* weird and we're a part of this world. We should embrace our weirdness, follow what makes us happy. And we should do it without judgment of any kind.
Seibertron wrote:I'll continue fighting the fight on my end and doing my part behind the scenes because I feel that's right. Something positive might be coming out of my anti-3rd party stance for Seibertron.com
...
someone on an official level acknowledged Seibertron.com's stance and what doors it might open for Seibertron.com. It felt wonderful to finally have someone on an official level acknowledge that they had taken note of this.
It is frustrating fighting this fight when so many of you seem unconcerned by the ill effects of 3rd party products on the Transformers brand.
Now, we're at the part I wanted to address earlier. You said you would've continued your support of 3rd party if they had done this or done that or stuck to this or stuck to that, but here in this final segment, you made the statements I bolded above.
First bolded part: If you're going to continue fighting it on your end and you feel it's right, why would you have even supported it to begin with? Why would you even entertain the idea with your words, if that's how you feel? That confuses me and others as well.
Second bolded part: That's what it's really all about. Official recognition by Hasbro and/or Takara. It's not about a love for the hobby, it's not about your fellow collector and fan, it's about what doors it might open for you and Seibertron.com, which is an extension of you. I really do think it's great that someone in an official capacity took notice, that's awesome, it really is, but it alienates some of the fans.
It's a fight you chose to take up, out of the blue, all of a sudden after promoting 3rd party for so long. Now, we know why, official recognition, but you chose this. Since it's your choice, why does it give you the right to judge any of us? We don't have the right to judge you, so why's it fair in reverse?
SkyWarpt wrote:Have to agree on this one, as the proof is there. Go back and look through the comments of MP Magnus before his release. There were many people deciding whether to put their money towards the Stacks or official release Magnus. It's highly likely purchases that would have been in Takara's hand went to KFC instead, which lowers the success of the Official Masterpiece line as a whole. Personally, I can't help but think Shockwave and Dinobots MP releases may be stiffled a bit by the release of third party products. I kinda wish some of those 3rd parties went through the proper channels and got hired or contracted as engineers so they would be official products furthering the success of the brand rather than taking away from it.
Plenty of people ditched their Citizen Stack once MP Magnus came along. Check eBay, check the current prices over at BBTS and TFSource. They're all on clearance because people just aren't buying them. I see more people talk about the MP Magnus they just bought than the Citizen Stack they just sold or outright ignored. The number of 3rd party purists you believe to be out there is much, much smaller than you even know. As I said above, their piddling contribution of income to the fan world is so small it doesn't even register as a blip on Hasbro's radar. They're doing just fine without the proceeds of those fans.
And let's not forget... Hasbro, in the past, has told us time and again that we, the fans, are not their main focus and never have been. That we make up barely 10% of their sales (I had once heard it was closer to 7, maybe 8%) and when you keep hearing that, you can't help but take it as "Oh...okay. Well, alright then." 3rd parties come along and say they'll take our business, well of course a fan wants to hear that. Are they using that to get to our wallets? Sure, but the 3rd parties never promised otherwise, either. They never claimed they were doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.
Meanwhile, Hasbro has been officially licensing BotCon to put on conventions for the fans and give us panels to yell at with nothing really gained. It was at one of those panels that we heard our contribution is a drop in the bucket compared to their other sales numbers. A lot of fans are grateful and enjoy the conventions, they do, but there are a lot of fans that can't stand them either. Usually due to bad practices, ridiculously exorbitant prices and customer service that makes you want to claw your own skin off. 3rd party will actually listen to the fans. Where'd we get our first G1 Arcee? Impossible Toys. Sure, it wasn't the best quality, but they did try. Hasbro? ...28 years. Twenty. Eight. Years. Nearly THREE decades to do what should've been done long ago.
This is why 3rd party is so prevalent. This is why people keep giving them their money. Hasbro's finally listening, we're finally getting some really killer product worth buying. Combiner Wars? Heck yeah, GOOD stuff. Latest Generations? Rock solid. Why did it take decades to make it happen, though? Why did some of the best stuff have to have it's origins based in a filler line back in 2006? I realize the movies and shows take precedence over the fan oriented stuff, I do, but why not make a show or movie that helps sell the CHUG stuff so it doesn't have to be a filler line anymore?
It's decisions like those that make 3rd parties work. People are saying Hasbro shouldn't have to compete. I say, why not? In the 1980's, Go-Bots were their direct competition and Transformers beat them, but at least it was open and fair. Hasbro then went and bought up everything Go-Bots and repurposed it to their whims. That's fine, they have that legal right, they own it lock, stock and barrel. (I know the toys are owned by Bandai, I'm talking about the names, locations and fiction.) It also took their competition off the market.
Power Rangers is remotely their only real competition and for many years it beat Transformers with one hand tied behind it's back. I'd love to see Hasbro try and buy that up so they have no competition there. (It'll never happen. lol) 3rd parties are doing what Tonka and Bandai have/are doing. Competing. The competition wouldn't even be there if Hasbro would address what the fans have wanted all this time.
Now, if they had and the 3rd parties still came up with their versions of these items, that would be one thing. I'd be all "OMGWTFBBQ GUYZ?" because then people would have a solidly legitimate complaint. As it is, this all started as accessories and grew into more because Hasbro wouldn't address big, gaping holes in their lineups.
I must give Hasbro props, though... Roadbuster? That's an out of nowhere release and it was cool of them to take the risk. Turned out to be a nice figure, I thought. Bought it instead of the $90.00 FP guy.
sol magnus wrote:I didn't know you had a bias against 3P figures until a few posts ago! That's interesting to say the least.
Thank you for bringing that to our attention, we should make it far more clear than we do. That's something that needs to be addressed.
sol magnus wrote:For my part, here is my feeling on it. There isn't a 3rd party figure made that if HasTak produces one better than the one that extists, I wouldn't pay for it. Examples - I own a City Commander set and Target Ultra Magnus. When I sold off my CHUG figures, I kept two out of all of them. Ultra Magnus and Springer. Springer is important because I owned (and sold off) the Warbot Defender they made when there wasn't an acceptable Hasbro alternative. Magnus and City Commander I will probably never get rid of, because Ultra Magnus is my favorite character. Although I am "strictly" a MP collector now, dollars to donuts I will purchase the Leader Ultra Magnus when it comes out. Up til Apollyon and Brawny, I stayed away from 3P Masterpiece, but I have gotten (or pre-ordered) those two, and I'm strongly considering Spinout (Sunstreaker) because HasTak doesn't seem to have any immediate plans to add them to the line. However, if and when they do, I would gladly spend the money to buy an official HasTak product to go with what I own.
And this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Fans, especially long time ones, want what they want and if official sources won't produce it, but others will, well other will get the proceeds. I collect CHUG, show/movie bots and Masterpiece. If it's official or 3rd party, I'll buy it. I have no problem supporting Hasbro, I also have no problem supporting 3rd party. Springer's an excellent example. I owned Warbot Defender and as soon as Springer was in my hands, I sold off WD, seeing as I don't need TWO of the same character and when one of those is superior for a LOT less money. Chances are, I'll probably get rid of my D.I.A. Clone Commander when Leader Class Ultra Magnus comes out. In fact, I'm 99% sure of it.
I have no problem replacing 3rd party stuff with official, if it fits my needs and makes me happy. As of late, official stuff has been winning over 3rd party. CW Superion is a fantastic combiner and gives me zero need to have TFC's Uranos. (I'm speaking for me, not anyone else, so please people, don't jump on here and get after me about Uranos and his value and all that jazz.)
sol magnus wrote:In my case (and I'm sure others), Hasbro isn't losing one cent they aren't already getting from me. It suppliments a collection that cost a considerable amount of money to acquire and will continue to add up as time goes on. The 3P guys are getting paid, too because I'm not taking away money from HasTak to buy their product. Like Megatronus, I'm not infringing on anyone else's beliefs with what I am doing with my collecting habits, but it can be construed the other way around. For me, it's black and white...not muddied at all.
Exactly. In the end, I'm not bothering anyone, nor am I keeping the world from spinning. One day when we grow old and stop collecting, we'll look back on all of this and say "You know what? It was pretty crappy to judge that dude over some toys. We need help." It bothers me to be judged, when no one has that right, no one.
sol magnus wrote:I enjoy the official coverage I get here at Seibertron.com, but I think it would be a sadder collecting world without 3P products to fill the gaps while I wait for official ones.
Absolutely agree.
NOTE: Realize that I am not a perfect Christian, nor do I profess to be. I apologize if anyone's ever offended by me, I'm not perfect. Don't hold my posts and opinions against other Christians.