RiddlerJ wrote:Each one will come with an autographed picture of Michael Bay sitting on top of a huge pile of money.
Autobot032 wrote:No one's saying they can't both happen, just that that's usually how it works. Hasbro's main concern is making money. Always has been, always will be. Both sides can't win always and whatever side will make them guaranteed money and a lot of it, will always win.
Autobot032 wrote:Wait... um... I'm a tad confused here.
Autobot032 wrote:I'm not opposed to better writing, but I'm also not expecting it to be overwhelmingly Oscar material either. I guess it's because I'm a realist.
NatsumeRyu wrote:To get a truly fantastic film I honestly think we need a smaller budget...
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:thank you very much, You did a better job of wording my point then I did
RhA wrote:So it's not about what we should want in life, but you're only dictating what we should want in movies?
cotss2012 wrote:Someone obviously never saw G1 season 1, TFTM, Beast Wars seasons 2&3, Beast Machines, Animated, or Prime.
JOP wrote:NatsumeRyu wrote:To get a truly fantastic film I honestly think we need a smaller budget...
That is a very interesting thought. I'm not sure if necessarily it is the budget at fault here, but rather - as I think was brought up earlier in the thread - the choice of director. svk2K posted a very interesting quote by Christopher Nolan:
"...It is a real honor to work on something that means so much to people," Nolan said. "I'd love to be able to claim that I invented the whole thing and that’s why they’re interested. I did not. I’ve been given a very precious thing to do my best with..."
I think the contrast between Nolan and Bay could not be more apparent - one approaches his source material with care, consideration, and humility; the other is, well... Michael Bay... Perhaps if we simply had a director that was more than financially invested in the project; someone more philosophically akin to High Moon Studios?
Shadowman wrote:NatsumeRyu wrote:To get a truly fantastic film I honestly think we need a smaller budget. Yes, I said it.
The first movie had a (comparatively) smaller budget. Turns out, CGI is expensive. Turns out, that's why there was so little screen time for the actual robots.NatsumeRyu wrote:I think the fans would either have to make it (Lord knows enough of us know how, it's just finding the time to volunteer to it)
Someone suggested this around the time of the first movie. The response was, more or less, it would never work because we'd never be able to agree on anything long enough to do it.
JOP wrote:I could well be wrong, but that's very much the impression I took away from comments by RaH and 5150 Cruiser - that what we might think of as 'critical qualities' (excellence of script, narrative, dialogue) are no more than personal preferences; and preferences that conflict with those of other fans and the larger movie-going public. It is a model in which film-making is portrayed as a zero-sum game; and I reject this.
JOP wrote:I do agree with you that Hasbro, Paramount and their ilk are of a mercenary bent; however, this does not mean that they cannot - to stretch a metaphor - "Have their box office success cake and eat it too (with the spoon of critical success"). Now I can understand why, given the track record of such entities (as you suggest), it would be foolish to expect any better of them - but I don't understand why we can't at least hope for better.
JOP wrote:I understand where you are coming from, but but please consider this - Christopher Nolan, Jon Favreau and JJ Abrams have demonstrated (with The Dark Knight, Iron Man, and Star Trek respectively) that the traditional blockbuster movie can aspire for greatness beyond mere financial considerations.
JOP wrote:I could well be wrong, but that's very much the impression I took away from comments by RaH and 5150 Cruiser - that what we might think of as 'critical qualities' (excellence of script, narrative, dialogue) are no more than personal preferences; and preferences that conflict with those of other fans and the larger movie-going public. It is a model in which film-making is portrayed as a zero-sum game; and I reject this.
Autobot032 wrote: Well, I see both sides, but I'm biased, so I'm not the fairest party in this issue.
A better script is fine, I have no problem with that, but the movie going public and their money clearly prove our desires aren't even on the companies back burner, and more likely nowhere near the kitchen.
Past a certain point, wishing and hoping do go to waste.JOP wrote:I do agree with you that Hasbro, Paramount and their ilk are of a mercenary bent; however, this does not mean that they cannot - to stretch a metaphor - "Have their box office success cake and eat it too (with the spoon of critical success"). Now I can understand why, given the track record of such entities (as you suggest), it would be foolish to expect any better of them - but I don't understand why we can't at least hope for better.
"mercenary bent" I...like that. I really do. That's pretty good. We can hope all we want, there's nothing wrong with it, no laws against it, etc. My problem is, I hate to see so many people get their hopes up so high, only to have them dashed on the rocks below. And they will be dashed. HARD.
See, I read the leaked "scriptment" for the first film, in 2006, I still have it on my PC somewhere. I knew right then and there that if they went with it, it'd be a fun popcorn movie, but not a great TF movie. When the trailers and commercials lined up with what was in the leak, I started to put my hopes a little lower than I had them previously. I still wanted to see it, wasn't going to miss it, but my hopes were lowered.
I went to see it. I was wowed. I was overwhelmed. It was fantastic. What an experience and a joyride. ...then reality set in and multiple viewings showed me the flaws with a giant spotlight from Hell. The film was actually boring, the title characters weren't in it much, the human element was too much. Funny thing is, it was chock full of humans but had no humanity.
My hopes that were raised when the wow factor kicked in, were smashed on the rocks below. That set the mood and the tone for me, for future installments. I knew what to expect going in. ROTF came along and it had it's ludicrous G1 inspired plot, wall to wall action and more robot screen time. Admittedly, the humor didn't always work and the wow factor was gone, but it wasn't boring and it was fun. Granted, I went in with lowered expectations.
DOTM, changed all of that for me. It restored the hope I had for the first film, but actually delivered. It had it's zany G1 inspired storyline, but it had moments of humanity in it. It actually brought me to tears in some scenes. It did what the other two tried, but couldn't do. Wasn't perfect, but it dang sure tried.JOP wrote:I understand where you are coming from, but but please consider this - Christopher Nolan, Jon Favreau and JJ Abrams have demonstrated (with The Dark Knight, Iron Man, and Star Trek respectively) that the traditional blockbuster movie can aspire for greatness beyond mere financial considerations.
I'm not aspirations are a waste, but in this case they seem rather pointless. Your comparison material is leaps and bounds above what TFs have ever offered.
Batman Begins/The Dark Knight: Always been a tour de force of emotions. Bruce watched his parents get murdered in front of him. It fractured his psyche. He runs around in a batsuit, scaring and beating the hell out of villains. I made it sound silly, but there's a very real dark component to it: Fear. What happened to Bruce can and does happen to people everyday, unfortunately. People want vengeance, people want their justice, even if it means taking it with their own two hands. That connects with us. It addresses a primal emotion.
Iron Man: A seemingly unloved alcoholic with too much money, too much ego and too much power is given a valuable lesson and shook to his core. Sees that his empire, his Father's legacy, has turned into a killing machine taking out innocent men, women and children. It fundamentally changes him and he uses his talents and gifts to change the world, little by little with what he has and is capable of doing. That also connects with us on a deep, emotional level. Most people want to embrace their inner good and do great works with it.
Star Trek: Uses alien species to show us that their is equality among the human race. It doesn't matter if you're White, Black, Purple, Green or whatever color you wish, you are part of the grand scheme and matter just as much as the rest. It was about tearing down the walls and uniting the peoples. Now, it's not just about color, but religion and sexual orientation. Everyone's an equal person in the Star Trek universe, which teaches us a lesson and along the way, we're wowed with special effects that are out of this world. (Pardon the pun.)
TransFormers: Giant robots have ripped their planet apart in civil war and crashed here by accident. We try to integrate them into our lives and adapt. We welcome them with open arms. (G1.) In the Bayverse, they come looking for the Allspark and need a pair of glasses, sighted on someone's eBay page, to help them locate it. Mass hysteria ensues, but not a single human dies during the final confrontation. (No realism there.) ROTF: Optimus dies, but comes back. DOTM: Actions have consequences. People DO die, people DO suffer, it's as real as it's going to get. DOTM should give you hope. It shows they're trying to branch out and go places they hadn't gone before, emotionally.
Michael Bay gave us some serious street cred when the movies ended up being profitable, but they weren't deep thinkers. Problem is, neither was the source material. Some stories were, but for the most part, this was a promotional item to sell toys. There's not a lot of work involved to do that. You make 'em flash, you make 'em loud and you make 'em exciting and that's exactly what the movies did and it worked.
I don't have a lot of emotional connection with the TransFormers. I know Optimus is capable of being a better person than his movieverse self, I know he's a big hero. Same with Bumblebee and the rest of the Autobots. But you can't always connect with alien robots. To a certain extent, you can, but only to a certain point.
You can connect with Bruce Wayne. You can share his fears and his pain. You can connect with Tony Stark. You can feel unloved and lost and then find out the truth and feel empowered and do something good with your gifts. You can connect with Kirk, Spock and especially Data. You can see there's more to attain to with being human and seeing there's only one race, that we're all human and while not perfect, we can help better each other if we give it a chance.
You can't connect all that much with alien robots that destroyed their planet with their stupidity, and now need a handout and a hand up. I mean, when it comes down to it, that's really what TransFormers boils down to.
Sure, you have your Christ figure with Optimus. Sure, you have your political and socioeconomic commentary with the Autobots VS the Decepticons, but... if not handled right, the former can be seen as offensive and heavy handed, and the latter can be seen as boring and heavy handed.
TransFormers stories have had depth before, they will again. But they're not well known for their "Wow. I just got that. How incredibly sad." moments. They're known for "WE WILL KILL THEM ALL!"
I knew this a long time ago, I know it now. I came to terms with it long ago. I'm fine with that. I love the toys, they're my foremost love when it comes to TransFormers, then comes the media tie ins that help sell it. Some of it's entertaining, some of it connects with you to some degree, but it's not deep thought material and never has been. The fact that we've been able to connect at all, is a miracle.
Maybe I'm too much of a realist, I don't know, but that's how I see it. What we've gotten so far has exceeded my expectations on some fronts, failed on others. It's just what I've come to expect.
Shadowman wrote:I will put forth the theory that it was the internet itself trying to punch him in the face.
ReDPATH wrote:Kevin Williamson - A movie within a movie
RiddlerJ wrote:Each one will come with an autographed picture of Michael Bay sitting on top of a huge pile of money.
JOP wrote:I think we have very much clarified at this point that the one thing svk2K is not arguing is that he / she can dictate the expectations and desires of others.
Autobot032 wrote:Michael Bay gave us some serious street cred when the movies ended up being profitable, but they weren't deep thinkers. Problem is, neither was the source material. Some stories were, but for the most part, this was a promotional item to sell toys.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Autobot032 wrote:Michael Bay gave us some serious street cred when the movies ended up being profitable, but they weren't deep thinkers. Problem is, neither was the source material. Some stories were, but for the most part, this was a promotional item to sell toys.
See, thats where your wrong,The cartoon is not the true original "source material".
From the start, the tf fiction had more "depth" then just a toy add.Maybe not in the cartoon, but certainly in the comics, which came before the cartoon.And while the comic had its share of silly stories, it also had its share of material that appealed to the "deep thinkers".
And thats what this brand has in common with Batman.The character of Bruce Wayne/Batman has been depicted in many different ways over the years in the mediums of comics, live action and animated.
Shadowman wrote:I will put forth the theory that it was the internet itself trying to punch him in the face.
5150 Cruiser wrote: Couple of things..
First, the whole problem with that aurgument is no one ever bring up the first comics for source material. Its always G1 and the stories of G1.
the point is the source material (whitch includes the comics)just wasn't very good in terms or stories, plot, dialogue and everything else many complain about the movies.
Second,.."Deep thinkers??" I'm sorry, but early TF comics were anything but that.
And when exactly did they come out? According to what i could find out, they came out roughly the same time the series did.
Even if there were a couple good stories, and deep thinking, that's very little (if any) good material to take from. Thats like saying..
"Ya, i know we had a hundred or so bad, corny stories, but there were one or two really good ones. The movie writers should have taken material from those two stories."
(at least nothing swe inspiring).
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Autobot32 ,and you are wrong.When it comes to source material, TF fiction has had quite a few good examples to go by.
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:whats "awe inspiring" would differ depending on who you ask..............
Shadowman wrote:I will put forth the theory that it was the internet itself trying to punch him in the face.
5150 Cruiser wrote: Then i guess were just going to have to agree to disagree. They were what they were. 80's comics made to apeal to young kids. Now that's not bad.
And that's pretty much been my point though this whole debate. What you might concider good stories, better writing etc.. Is largely subjective.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
NatsumeRyu wrote:Yeah, that's something like what I meant to say. Basically, we're looking for the people who work on a smaller budget, because I find they tend to be more passionate beyond the money.
Autobot032 wrote:A better script is fine, I have no problem with that, but the movie going public and their money clearly prove our desires aren't even on the companies back burner, and more likely nowhere near the kitchen.
Autobot032 wrote:"mercenary bent" I...like that. I really do. That's pretty good. We can hope all we want, there's nothing wrong with it, no laws against it, etc. My problem is, I hate to see so many people get their hopes up so high, only to have them dashed on the rocks below. And they will be dashed. HARD.
Autobot032 wrote:DOTM should give you hope. It shows they're trying to branch out and go places they hadn't gone before, emotionally.
Autobot032 wrote:Maybe I'm too much of a realist, I don't know, but that's how I see it. What we've gotten so far has exceeded my expectations on some fronts, failed on others. It's just what I've come to expect.
5150 Cruiser wrote: My point was more in lines of Autobot32's. I'm not in any way opposed to better writing, script etc. If they can make it work while still keeping the action then great. My point was while many felt the script, plot and story was lacking in the movies, I did not. As did many others. I felt for the most part they were just fine and did not only what they were supposed to, but exceeded.
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:again thank you.
JOP wrote:Suffice to say, I do not agree with your assessment of the presence of the critical qualities under discussion within the Transformers trilogy; however, I do respect your stance. Perhaps we can discuss the matter in a new thread.
UPDATE: Bay himself has spoken out about directing TF4, and though the studios are pushing for his involvement, Bay is still weighing his options:
Right now I’m not decided on Transformers 4… Studio’s are passing rumors but I’m not sure what I’m doing? I know I’m going to do Pain and Gain early spring but that’s it for right now. I’m leaving all my options on the table. I’ve got several Studio meetings in the next two weeks.
What we do know is that there’s already a rough plan in place for the film since producer Don Murphy already came out and said the next film would not be a prequel and that it would continue the franchise’s focus on human characters in an effort to kickstart a second Transformers trilogy. According to Vulture, this remains true and TF4 will “delve deeper into Transformers canon to mine older characters and lore.” One of their insiders says the following that we can take as a hint:
”Regular people might not care about bringing out a character like Sentinel Prime. But believe me, fans of the series cared.”
Fans who saw Transformers: Dark of the Moon understand that it would be difficult to continue the series as is due to how of the characters ended up by the story’s conclusion. We can therefore expect radical changes and plethora of new characters, perhaps even mining stories from some of the other animated television series.
Expect Transformers 4 to release in summer 2014.
Blackmoon wrote:I don't know if anyone else saw this but I figured I post it.UPDATE: Bay himself has spoken out about directing TF4, and though the studios are pushing for his involvement, Bay is still weighing his options:
Right now I’m not decided on Transformers 4… Studio’s are passing rumors but I’m not sure what I’m doing? I know I’m going to do Pain and Gain early spring but that’s it for right now. I’m leaving all my options on the table. I’ve got several Studio meetings in the next two weeks.
What we do know is that there’s already a rough plan in place for the film since producer Don Murphy already came out and said the next film would not be a prequel and that it would continue the franchise’s focus on human characters in an effort to kickstart a second Transformers trilogy. According to Vulture, this remains true and TF4 will “delve deeper into Transformers canon to mine older characters and lore.” One of their insiders says the following that we can take as a hint:
”Regular people might not care about bringing out a character like Sentinel Prime. But believe me, fans of the series cared.”
Fans who saw Transformers: Dark of the Moon understand that it would be difficult to continue the series as is due to how of the characters ended up by the story’s conclusion. We can therefore expect radical changes and plethora of new characters, perhaps even mining stories from some of the other animated television series.
Expect Transformers 4 to release in summer 2014.
The whole story was found here.
Autobot032 wrote:Now see? You and I would do just fine. It might get heated a time or two, but we're on the same page when it comes to the respect issue. I commend you for being able to admit that on the board, in a topic such as this.
NewFoundStarscreamLuv wrote:me and my friends combine all the time. Sometimes I even combine by myself if no one is around.
Autobot032 wrote:*sighs* Not one of these threads....
1.) It won't end well.
2.) It's been said a million times before.
3.) People will see what they want to see and that goes for both sides of the argument.
Rather than watch this devolve into a travesty, I'm stepping out after this post, but just know you were given a heads up.
This will get worse. Good luck though.
Evil_the_Nub wrote:I'm sick of the whining too. It's been going on for 5 years and most of it is crap. "Optimus has flames so I'm going to make death threats on Michael Bay." "Ironhide isn't red so the movies suck just because of that." I've heard less whining from fat kids on a diet.
Shadowman wrote:I will put forth the theory that it was the internet itself trying to punch him in the face.
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