The Energon Pub

You know what's funny. I don't think anyone actually complained about his size in this thread before all the people came in whining about people complaining about his size

Granted, I'm sure in other threads plenty of people have been complaining.

SJ21 wrote:

typh0id wrote:Don't care. Buying him. Period.

I'm with you.

150 dollars for Grimlock is too much due to being imported from Japan by U.S. sellers. I'd rather wait until Hasbro decides to release him for a reasonable price of lets say $50-$70. Attually I haven't been too happy with the durability of Materpiece Tfs like Megatron for instance. Can't fix his two broken pegs after two years of owning one. There's no replacement parts avaliable on Ebay nor substitute pegs found at the hardware store. I hope the quality of Grimlock is a vast improvement over Megatron/Starscream.

Yep, I must have this one. Vertically Challenged or not.

Transformers go up in price?

That's UNPOSSIBLE!



Pay...or don't. When has it ever been different?

Wait! He's that much taller than Voyager Animated Grimlock? Let me think about this for a moment.

I've compared my Masterpiece Starscream to my Voyager Animated Starscream. In robot mode, they're both about the same height.

Now Voyager Animated Starscream and Voyager Animated Grimlock are not too far apart in their heights.

So, after seeing this image, I conclude that, while he's still shorter that Masterpiece Convoy/Optimus Prime, Masterpiece Grimlock is actually much taller than Masterpiece Starscream (and the other Seekers).

Counterpunch wrote:Transformers go up in price?

That's UNPOSSIBLE!



Pay...or don't. When has it ever been different?

No. There is a cost involoved with Transformers and I don't think that the cost to produce MP Grimlock is any where near the cost to produce MP Prime, even taking into consideration the increase prices of toys. If you want to just sit there blindly and just accept that MPs cost $100 and let them keep getting smaller and smaller, then fine, but I eventually the MP line will release a figure that people will say sucks and isn't worth the money and it's because the gradual reductions in quality went on with people saying to "stop complain". Is it a good figure, yea. Is it on par with MP Prime in terms of content, no.

GetterDragun wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:Transformers go up in price?

That's UNPOSSIBLE!



Pay...or don't. When has it ever been different?

No. There is a cost involoved with Transformers and I don't think that the cost to produce MP Grimlock is any where near the cost to produce MP Prime, even taking into consideration the increase prices of toys. If you want to just sit there blindly and just accept that MPs cost $100 and let them keep getting smaller and smaller, then fine, but I eventually the MP line will release a figure that people will say sucks and isn't worth the money and it's because the gradual reductions in quality went on with people saying to "stop complain". Is it a good figure, yea. Is it on par with MP Prime in terms of content, no.

Don't talk down to me. I don't deserve it and I'm certainly not lacking in any regards concerning the fiscal costs of production or the Transformers collecting market. Your tone, is unacceptable.

Topic related...

You're comparing a figure made nearly 7 years ago to one made today, in the current market.

You're ignoring the fact that the price is probably higher on Grimlock because there's not a viable redeco option. What they make off this mold and deco is going to be the profit on the figure.

You're ignoring the fact that costs go up, that materials costs are only now recovering from last years high oil costs, and you're ignoring the fact that Takara and Hasbro shared the development cost for MP Prime.

Counterpunch wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:Transformers go up in price?

That's UNPOSSIBLE!



Pay...or don't. When has it ever been different?

No. There is a cost involoved with Transformers and I don't think that the cost to produce MP Grimlock is any where near the cost to produce MP Prime, even taking into consideration the increase prices of toys. If you want to just sit there blindly and just accept that MPs cost $100 and let them keep getting smaller and smaller, then fine, but I eventually the MP line will release a figure that people will say sucks and isn't worth the money and it's because the gradual reductions in quality went on with people saying to "stop complain". Is it a good figure, yea. Is it on par with MP Prime in terms of content, no.

Don't talk down to me. I don't deserve it and I'm certainly not lacking in any regards concerning the fiscal costs of production or the Transformers collecting market. Your tone, is unacceptable.

Topic related...

You're comparing a figure made nearly 7 years ago to one made today, in the current market.

You're ignoring the fact that the price is probably higher on Grimlock because there's not a viable redeco option. What they make off this mold and deco is going to be the profit on the figure.

You're ignoring the fact that costs go up, that materials costs are only now recovering from last years high oil costs, and you're ignoring the fact that Takara and Hasbro shared the development cost for MP Prime.

Talking down? Please. I'm sure your aware of the fiscal costs involved with the production, but a sarcastic one line response doesn't show it.

And I am taking into consideration every figure sold in the market today. Don't tell me Omega Supreme has less material than this. And I have a feeling this will be on par with a regular leader class figure in terms of content. Material costs have went up, but not up 50%. And I'm certainly sure that material cost fluctuation are way less than you expect, I mean Hasbro has held a $9.99 price point for deluxe figures for over 25 years. Just recently they raised it slightly, so I'm sure they could absorb the cost in their margin for the sake of volume.

And your assumption that MP Grimlock was not done with Hasbro is just that, an assumption. Hasbro has been talking about MP Grimlock for over two years, so I am sure they have some involvement.

So how am I wrong in saying this is not a $100 figure? Maybe you are misinterpreting it as me saying "I don't like this figure" (or other members are interpreting it that way), but I do...I'd pay $200 for it, I wouldn't think it was worth $200, but I would. My point is that this figure is not on par content line with what we pay $100 for...and you can ignore it now because it is cool, but like I said, don't be surprised for MP figures to get less and less, well less of everything and still be $100.

GetterDragun wrote: And I'm certainly sure that material cost fluctuation are way less than you expect, I mean Hasbro has held a $9.99 price point for deluxe figures for over 25 years. Just recently they raised it slightly, so I'm sure they could absorb the cost in their margin for the sake of volume.

You'd actually be surprise at how large the impact of last years materials and fuel prices did impact things. I work for the Sourcing and Manufacturing organization of multi-national company with factories all over the globe including some in China. Last years fuel cost had a really big impact on the decision making that's affecting what we're doing now and how it's priced. Unfortunately though, the bottom dropped out of the market, compounding everything. For a figure like this with a built-in audience, I'm not surprise that Takara is raising prices to recoup development/manufacturing costs and lost revenue from across the board.

But comparing it to a deluxe figure really isn't a good direct comparison, simply because the volume levels and development cost ratios are probably very different.

GetterDragun wrote: ...but like I said, don't be surprised for MP figures to get less and less, well less of everything and still be $100.

It's probably inevitable at this point. No doubt this is the new scale. It'll be interesting to see what figure they do next and how big it is.

I really like him. Already got my preorder set.

As far as the size goes, i look at it this way. Optimus was made in the same scale as the Binalternators lines at 1:24. Grimlock is a T-Rex which had an average length of 60 feet. If Grimlock were to keep a 1:24 scale, his alt mode would be longer than Fortress Maximus is tall...about 30 inches. That is too big for a toy aimed at a collector's specific market.

My final point: Optimus and Megatron are the major characters in the TF line. Their figures SHOULD tower over the others...be larger than life so to speak. So that's why they should be taller. Grimlock, though a fan fave, is still a relatively small part of the mythos.

I think both GD & CP have raised good points. In the translated article last week from the Transformers Generation book, the designers mentioned how oil prices have been affecting cost of the toys. But perhaps Takara is also using this opportunity to make a higher profit. I am curious if MP Grimlock was originally designed to be larger, but because of costs - it was scaled down.

I agree with GetterDragon that the size to price ratio is a bit hard to swallow, which I think leads to CounterPunch's point that the deciding factor for this toy will be the price. Either shell out the money or not.

As I've mentioned in a previous thread, I believe this figure may be a deciding factor for future figures. If this figure sells well, then it may mean that Takara will continue to push this new price. If this figure is not successful, then we may see scaled back production for future figures if the costs are too high.

Alternity Prime & Megatron also fall into this campaign. I can't bring myself to purchasing them. The price too high for me for such a small figure. In one store I visited, they were selling Binaltech Jazz & Arcee for Y2,000 (each) and right next to it is Alternity Prime for Y4,000, which is half the size.

Stormrider wrote:I think both GD & CP have raised good points. In the translated article last week from the Transformers Generation book, the designers mentioned how oil prices have been affecting cost of the toys. But perhaps Takara is also using this opportunity to make a higher profit. I am curious if MP Grimlock was originally designed to be larger, but because of costs - it was scaled down.

I agree with GetterDragon that the size to price ratio is a bit hard to swallow, which I think leads to CounterPunch's point that the deciding factor for this toy will be the price. Either shell out the money or not.

As I've mentioned in a previous thread, I believe this figure may be a deciding factor for future figures. If this figure sells well, then it may mean that Takara will continue to push this new price. If this figure is not successful, then we may see scaled back production for future figures if the costs are too high.

Alternity Prime & Megatron also fall into this campaign. I can't bring myself to purchasing them. The price too high for me for such a small figure. In one store I visited, they were selling Binaltech Jazz & Arcee for Y2,000 (each) and right next to it is Alternity Prime for Y4,000, which is half the size.

Well put.

First-Aid wrote:I really like him. Already got my preorder set.

As far as the size goes, i look at it this way. Optimus was made in the same scale as the Binalternators lines at 1:24. Grimlock is a T-Rex which had an average length of 60 feet. If Grimlock were to keep a 1:24 scale, his alt mode would be longer than Fortress Maximus is tall...about 30 inches. That is too big for a toy aimed at a collector's specific market.

My final point: Optimus and Megatron are the major characters in the TF line. Their figures SHOULD tower over the others...be larger than life so to speak. So that's why they should be taller. Grimlock, though a fan fave, is still a relatively small part of the mythos.

Average length of a T-Rex was 45 feet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrannosaurus But the 45 feet is for the new accepted stance for dinosaurs, being measured in a straight line from head to tail. Grimlock is the old style dinosaur with his curved back, standing more upright and dragging his tail. So in that case, you need to measure 45 feet along the curvature, this will make him shorter in length but taller.

But all of that is beside the point. Figures should be kept in scale of the show and/or comics. That's how people remember and relate to them.

quick question.......is the price of an MP actually higher due to the semi-limited production of the figure? Are they at all considered "limited edition", or are they actual production models? If they are limited, then I can understand the higher price, relatively speaking anyway.

Stormrider wrote:I think both GD & CP have raised good points. In the translated article last week from the Transformers Generation book, the designers mentioned how oil prices have been affecting cost of the toys. But perhaps Takara is also using this opportunity to make a higher profit. I am curious if MP Grimlock was originally designed to be larger, but because of costs - it was scaled down.

I agree with GetterDragon that the size to price ratio is a bit hard to swallow, which I think leads to CounterPunch's point that the deciding factor for this toy will be the price. Either shell out the money or not.

As I've mentioned in a previous thread, I believe this figure may be a deciding factor for future figures. If this figure sells well, then it may mean that Takara will continue to push this new price. If this figure is not successful, then we may see scaled back production for future figures if the costs are too high.

Alternity Prime & Megatron also fall into this campaign. I can't bring myself to purchasing them. The price too high for me for such a small figure. In one store I visited, they were selling Binaltech Jazz & Arcee for Y2,000 (each) and right next to it is Alternity Prime for Y4,000, which is half the size.

Here here! You get my point! I know costs increase, but proportionately this figure looks like margins increase at a higher percentage than cost.

Seriously though, a slightly smaller scale figure, like this or maybe even a little smaller would be a great item, it could be Takaras version of like how Bandai does DX figures...kind of like Classics, but sized up versions of popular figures as a series and not a once in a while event. I would except the MP series as this as well if releases were more regular like how Bandai does SOC about twice a year...maybe that's what I'm leaning torwards, a Takara version of Soul of Chogokin, that would rock!

GetterDragun wrote:I would except the MP series as this as well if releases were more regular like how Bandai does SOC about twice a year...maybe that's what I'm leaning torwards, a Takara version of Soul of Chogokin, that would rock!

I couldn't agree more with this.

I can see people's disappointment with the scale when the build up and development time for MP figures is so big. If the line moved to a more regular basis, 1-2 relased a year, I agree that a smaller scale would probably be more widely accepted, especially for those of us that are "display space challenged".

So you guys would buy him if he were the size og G1 Trypticon? How much would that cost then? If theoretically possible or in an alternate world that this is done, how much would that doggy be in the window? A lot of complaints then would be on its price range then?

For the record...

Year 2002 $100 vs Year 2009 $100

$119.68 using the Consumer Price Index
$117.49 using the GDP deflator
$116.75 using the unskilled wage
$128.88 using the nominal GDP per capita
$136.25 using the relative share of GDP

http://www.measuringworth.com/calculato ... withad.php

MP Convoy in 2002 was $100 (or more depending on the store)
MP Grimlock in 2009 is $143 at BBTS or $140 at TFSource for a c-9 package.

Using the lowest comparison we're spending $27 more for Grimlock than Prime by relative purchase price.

This does not account for oil, production, or other cost increases.

Sure, Takara is probably getting a little more out of this, but it's not like they'll be able to sell it as a recolor (Magnus) or with another version (Perfect Convoy) or as a US retailer exclusive (maaaayyyybe....).

We've heard NOTHING about Hasbro and Takara working on Grimlock together...again, more costs that Takara is shouldering. By comparison, there were several statements in the months leading up to MP Convoy as well as information in his booklet that detailed the design share process.

Also, Prime is going to sell more than Grimlock. ALL of those things factor into the price increase and the smaller size...

but again, It's all relative.

Counterpunch wrote:For the record...

Year 2002 $100 vs Year 2009 $100

$119.68 using the Consumer Price Index
$117.49 using the GDP deflator
$116.75 using the unskilled wage
$128.88 using the nominal GDP per capita
$136.25 using the relative share of GDP

http://www.measuringworth.com/calculato ... withad.php

MP Convoy in 2002 was $100 (or more depending on the store)
MP Grimlock in 2009 is $143 at BBTS or $140 at TFSource for a c-9 package.

Using the lowest comparison we're spending $27 more for Grimlock than Prime by relative purchase price.

This does not account for oil, production, or other cost increases.

Sure, Takara is probably getting a little more out of this, but it's not like they'll be able to sell it as a recolor (Magnus) or with another version (Perfect Convoy) or as a US retailer exclusive (maaaayyyybe....).

We've heard NOTHING about Hasbro and Takara working on Grimlock together...again, more costs that Takara is shouldering. By comparison, there were several statements in the months leading up to MP Convoy as well as information in his booklet that detailed the design share process.

Also, Prime is going to sell more than Grimlock. ALL of those things factor into the price increase and the smaller size...

but again, It's all relative.

So how does the price of MP Megatron fit into all of this?


On a different note - it will be interesting to see if Hasbro is stamped on the Grimlock figure.

Hasbro said they want to make Grimlock and the Seekers back in the previous Q&A.

Stormrider wrote:So how does the price of MP Megatron fit into all of this?

I really think that one difference is the amount of material in Megatron. There's really not a lot of plastic or metal in him. They make the expansion aspects of that toy take up considerable portions of the robot.

But on the other hand, I would assume MP Megs took a lot more work to develop considering his fantastic level of complexity. MP Grimlock doesn't look all that far off from his G1 design. Don't know what the ratio is for money spent in development vs. actual material costs... And for Megs, you would think it's surely true that Hasbro didn't have any involvement since they can't or won't sell him in the US and there'll also be no repaint.

These discussions about inflation are not taking into account the fact that MP Prime is part die-cast whereas Grimlock is all plastic and therefore cheaper to make.

Also, compare size and weight of Leader TFA Megs, SW Death Star Vadar, Movie Leader Prime with MP Grimlock. The first three all retailed at 40 yet are totally different sizes and weights. The design of Movie Prime is far more complex than any of the others - huge amounts of tube and cable detail which must have taken hours to design as well as the most complex transformation of any of them.

Grimlock is about the same size as Movie Prime, they both have electronics, Prime has far better articulation, yet Grimlock costs more than three times the price. It seems to me that we are paying far more just because it is such a small niche market they are aiming at - that of us ageing fans from the 80's that have a disposeable income. Like buying Nike, we're paying for the label.

Mykltron wrote:These discussions about inflation are not taking into account the fact that MP Prime is part die-cast whereas Grimlock is all plastic and therefore cheaper to make.

I think we've all taken the obvious differences between plastic and die-cast metal well into account.

For the record, metal is not always more expensive than plastic and MP Convoy has a deceptive amount of die-cast in him (essentially just his legs and chest piece).

Not to mention the crazy fluctuations in the Yen vs Dollar over the past few months. Look at the pre-order price change between Henkei Skywarp/T-Cracker and Thrust/Dirge. I think the retail price on them may have gone up a few hundred Yen, but when preorders came out for the second set, stores like BBTS were getting a much different exchange rate on their dollar. Grimlock preorders started around this same time. We are living in a crazy time for currencies worldwide, and it probably will not change in the near future. I am not sure that we will see staggering changes in prices based on the timing of a release in the future, but Grimlock and the last two seekers hit at a very bad time exchange rate wise to be importing from Japan.