The Energon Pub

shortround wrote:I don't often say this but skywarp-2 is right hasbro has droped the ball with transformers.

Their financial statements say otherwise.

And you simply cannot compare a Transformer to a GI Joe figure. Of course the Joes are going to have more detailing, they don't have to transform from one thing to another! What with all those moving parts and space for those moving parts ... well something has be to sacrificed.

And I for one would rather my Transformers to transform, not stand there and look pretty.

Burn wrote:

shortround wrote:I don't often say this but skywarp-2 is right hasbro has droped the ball with transformers.

Their financial statements say otherwise.

And you simply cannot compare a Transformer to a GI Joe figure. Of course the Joes are going to have more detailing, they don't have to transform from one thing to another! What with all those moving parts and space for those moving parts ... well something has be to sacrificed.

And I for one would rather my Transformers to transform, not stand there and look pretty.

I have to agree with this as well. Although a middle ground could be found somewhere. Masterpiece Starscream and 20th. Optimus are proof of this.

I still say the physical quality needs to come up some. No one should have to deal with buying a broken Masterpiece Starscream, right out of the box. I realize that anyone could get a lemon, it happens, but even if you get him out of the box...the wing joints have stress marks due to the design of it. It's a flaw from the getgo. Hasbro needs to work on things like that.

Classics Hot Rod's shoulders, Masterpiece Starscream's wings, etc....

People hear of the negatives from the experiences of others and say "Well I just saved myself $100.00" and you know what? I don't blame 'em. If I saw a bunch of posts saying "this broke" or "this is flimsy" I'd be second guessing my purchases as well. Fortunately I listened to my gut and bought Masterpiece Megatron even with all of the naysayers. That's not to say they don't have legitimate concerns, but if I had listened to them...I'd have an empty spot on my shelf right now.

Hasbro needs to be concerned about that. The more reports of badly constructed figures, the more sales they'll lose.

I see both sides of the issue, I want them to look pretty and be sturdy. I also realize that it's expensive to make such accommodations and a lot of the buying public wouldn't pay that little extra to get it.

The people at Hasbro do what they can, but only with what they're given. So I guess we have to meet them half way.

Oh and before anyone says "what does Masterpiece Megatron have to do with Hasbro? They didn't make him." that was just an example.

shortround wrote:hasbro has droped the ball with transformers.

Autobot032 wrote:People hear of the negatives from the experiences of others and say "Well I just saved myself $100.00" and you know what? I don't blame 'em. If I saw a bunch of posts saying "this broke" or "this is flimsy" I'd be second guessing my purchases as well. Fortunately I listened to my gut and bought Masterpiece Megatron even with all of the naysayers. That's not to say they don't have legitimate concerns, but if I had listened to them...I'd have an empty spot on my shelf right now.

Thing is, you're thinking like a collector. (Which I should point out, there's nothing wrong with)

The average mum and dad consumer aren't going to go to websites dedicated to a toy they're planning on buying little jimmy for christmas just to find out what's good and what's bad.

And it's the average mum and dad consumer that Hasbro market towards. And if little Jimmy breaks his toy in the first few weeks, well ... they're not really going to care are they?

Burn wrote:

shortround wrote:I don't often say this but skywarp-2 is right hasbro has droped the ball with transformers.

Their financial statements say otherwise.

that doesn't count, you know full well transformers has and will most likely be a good seller, we are discussing the designs and things that hasbro could do in the future with complete accuracy to G-1, as apposed to what has been done in classics..

there isn't a doubt in my mind they make money off transformers, what with tons of repaints and reuses of molds..not to mention rereleases..

Burn wrote:And you simply cannot compare a Transformer to a GI Joe figure.

Why not, they are both made by the same toy company??

Burn wrote: Of course the Joes are going to have more detailing, they don't have to transform from one thing to another! What with all those moving parts and space for those moving parts ... well something has be to sacrificed.

Oh please, I didn't see anything sacrificed in their seeker molds, except scale.. if they can make a Starscream that looks very show accurate, except for the giant missiles on the arms.. then I'm sure they can put the level of detail necessary in doing a faithful run of G-1 animation accurate toys..

Burn wrote:And I for one would rather my Transformers to transform, not stand there and look pretty.

Gi Joes don't just stand in one place and look pretty, they have tons of articualtion worked into very accurate show representations of their characters.. you act as if they are just glorified statues..
they aren't they are very show accurate and detailed toys, with updated engineering (no O-Rings) and joints, but the aesthetics look like what they were in the original cartoon, even more so then the 1st versions released in the 1980s.. if they can do it there then why not in a toyline similar to classics or Cybertron??

Autobot032 wrote:I still say the physical quality needs to come up some. No one should have to deal with buying a broken Masterpiece Starscream, right out of the box. I realize that anyone could get a lemon, it happens, but even if you get him out of the box...the wing joints have stress marks due to the design of it. It's a flaw from the getgo. Hasbro needs to work on things like that.

Classics Hot Rod's shoulders, Masterpiece Starscream's wings, etc....

People hear of the negatives from the experiences of others and say "Well I just saved myself $100.00" and you know what? I don't blame 'em. If I saw a bunch of posts saying "this broke" or "this is flimsy" I'd be second guessing my purchases as well. Fortunately I listened to my gut and bought Masterpiece Megatron even with all of the naysayers. That's not to say they don't have legitimate concerns, but if I had listened to them...I'd have an empty spot on my shelf right now.

I agree that the quality control and some strengthening design issues exist in transformers toy.. though less with the classics as apposed to the Masterpiece toys..but then again that is exactly what I'm talking about.. we have animation accuracy being attempted in masterpiece, but I want to see it in a line of toys like classics.. why?

because the Masterpiece are delicate, and that is a sacrifice that we can almost understand given how detailed they are and still trying to remain accurate to the show..

I'm not saying that classics is without fault but there are some issues, design wise, that has caused some toys to appear breakable..still I don't think that if Hasbro went and did an Animation accurate design in a classics type toy, that alot of articulation or likeness would be lost.. again, if they can do it with the seekers they can do it with Optimus and other bots, the exception being Megatron, but that's why I say a tank or Gun turret, with as close to a show accurate robot mode as possible would do just fine..

Autobot032 wrote:Hasbro needs to be concerned about that. The more reports of badly constructed figures, the more sales they'll lose.

I see both sides of the issue, I want them to look pretty and be sturdy. I also realize that it's expensive to make such accommodations and a lot of the buying public wouldn't pay that little extra to get it.

I don't think it'd be expensive to do accurate G-1 toys that are ina classics style toy..it's not about engineering or plastic or higher cost to produce them.. I think it's lack of wanting to design and go backwards to give us the accurate toys that we all would love to see.. they would rather redesign the entire look of a figure then go and give us an accurate one.. or they do it, but leave out/produce a crappy version of some that should have been given the ultimate treatment.. ( the deluxe "Spin attack" Prime is a perfect example, with minor design changes, a larger size say Voyager, and a trailer with roller, transformable or not, that one prime toy could have been great.. instead he was IMHO, pure crap!!)

Autobot032 wrote:The people at Hasbro do what they can, but only with what they're given. So I guess we have to meet them half way.

yes we can meet them half way on some things, and I think in the classics run, we did, and FunPub pulled the rest of the slack, albeit limited and expensively, but they did give the seekers a completed set.. I think we have met Hasbro half way on alot of what they have produced, the movie toys are a great example, but I still think if they can put the time and effort into doing a great GI joe likeness and animation accurate toy line, with superior packaging and collectors in muind, then surely we can get a line of purely animation accurate toys of the G-1 verse.. in truth sometimes I wonder if they are afraid to do it, for fear of it overshadowing any of their other Transformer products.. as with the 25Th anniversary toys outselling and out popularizing the Sigma Six line..

Autobot032 wrote:Oh and before anyone says "what does Masterpiece Megatron have to do with Hasbro? They didn't make him." that was just an example.

I follow you, and I too am glad I bought MP Megatron, he is one of my favorite Transformers of all time!! No cosmic Rust on my end..

Burn wrote:Thing is, you're thinking like a collector. (Which I should point out, there's nothing wrong with)

The average mum and dad consumer aren't going to go to websites dedicated to a toy they're planning on buying little jimmy for christmas just to find out what's good and what's bad.

And it's the average mum and dad consumer that Hasbro market towards. And if little Jimmy breaks his toy in the first few weeks, well ... they're not really going to care are they?

that is true, I agree with you there, but there is a middle ground between what your saying and what Autobot032 is talking about.. most parents will buy a toy their kid wants, if that kid breaks it, then they either glue it back, or say oh well, and still that toy sits in the kids toy box.. with another replacement never bought..

it's us collectors that hasbro should be concerned about, with our websites and word of mouth, if a toy is crap then they know alot of us won't buy it..because Hasbro knows that if we break one, we'll hunt another down if we can, and buy it again..so it is important that they provide excellent Quality control, with the exception of the Masterpiece toys, which are understandably fragile due to accuracy and detail..

A classics line of Animation accurate toys based on G-1, wouldn't have to be as detailed and certain aspects can be designed with less parts, or molded as one part, so there aren't alot of pieces as with the custom Jizaitoys models.. those designers don't have the capability to mold a toy that can be just one piece as apposed to several making that chest area or arm section.. so thus the customs are not as durable as the ones made by Hasbro.. but Hasbro has the designers and capapbility to pull off animation accurate toys, that would be a great toyline, if only they stuck with the original formula..

I don't hate classics, I was disappointed with classics at first...Then I realized that I like classics for what it is, reimagined versions of our favorite characters in a "Cybertron" type toy format... what I'm suggesting is that if Customizers keep going at what they are doing they may very well be able to rival Hasbro and produce animation accurate transformers that are durable.. on day.. and that Hasbro should beat them to the punch, and get that Market share, and produce animation accurate G-1 toys in a Classics and Cybertron style.. Hasbro owns the property, why shouldn't they be the ones who finally give us accurate and well made G-1 toys? Hasbro should be leading the way..



Yeah, I wrote alot but I also missed alot of the discussion...

Okay, I'll just post a bit on why people say that "accurate show TFs can't be made" with the best example. Galvatron.

Attached is a sequence of him transforming that I got from somewhere. Note the steps:

1) Galvy jumps. No Problem!
2) head goes in, cannon detaches back "holder" shifts into place. Hands ho in gauntlets. No problem!
3) Upper arms thin out, treds cover the lower arms, legs stick together. Preblems begin.
4) Lower arms have dissappeared and treds move into place. Cannon now mounted on totally different head (although that is not really a problem). Hips become square-like and legs (which have boots WAY bigger than the hips, BTW) get absorbed by the main body. His bottom .... stabalizer ... thing also begins to grow out of nowhere.
5) His "shoulder pads" move into place, legs are eaten by the body (isn't there a head in there?) and his hip "pockets" morph.
6) Magically he is in his cannon mode. You'll note that the "pole" on his back has changed shape and size and that he is now round. Oh and now he's a different color too.

Now, I love Galvatron. But he cannot be 100% toon-accurate AND transform. His transformation is animation trickery.

SOME animations models CAN be MADE TO transform, but it requires a line like Hybrid or Masterpeice to make it work. Those fan-produced Wheelie, Powerglide, and Cyclonus molds are sorta on the Hybrid Convoy lines and probably would be priced similarily. That's way too expencive for an entire line.

You bring up Starscream, but let's face it: the guy's transformation is fairly easy and involved little animation trickery. Now that we can have really small parts we can do him right pretty nicely.

Takara made Hybrid Style Prime work with only 4 inches of space to work with. What if Hasbro did a G1 style Prime in leader or voyager class?

Maybe Hasbro would be able to fit in all the parts needed to make the transformation complex enough if they weren't so obsessed about finding a place to put the lights and sounds.

skywarp-2 wrote:Classics should have been what G-1 toys should have been had they had todays technology.. not what G-1 toys would look like applying reimagined designs..

I agree.

I am perfectly happy with the transformers Hasbro and TakTomy are churning out.


But I demand more classics dammit!

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Okay, I'll just post a bit on why people say that "accurate show TFs can't be made" with the best example. Galvatron.

Attached is a sequence of him transforming that I got from somewhere. Note the steps:

1) Galvy jumps. No Problem!
2) head goes in, cannon detaches back "holder" shifts into place. Hands ho in gauntlets. No problem!
3) Upper arms thin out, treds cover the lower arms, legs stick together. Preblems begin.
4) Lower arms have dissappeared and treds move into place. Cannon now mounted on totally different head (although that is not really a problem). Hips become square-like and legs (which have boots WAY bigger than the hips, BTW) get absorbed by the main body. His bottom .... stabalizer ... thing also begins to grow out of nowhere.
5) His "shoulder pads" move into place, legs are eaten by the body (isn't there a head in there?) and his hip "pockets" morph.
6) Magically he is in his cannon mode. You'll note that the "pole" on his back has changed shape and size and that he is now round. Oh and now he's a different color too.

Now, I love Galvatron. But he cannot be 100% toon-accurate AND transform. His transformation is animation trickery.

SOME animations models CAN be MADE TO transform, but it requires a line like Hybrid or Masterpeice to make it work. Those fan-produced Wheelie, Powerglide, and Cyclonus molds are sorta on the Hybrid Convoy lines and probably would be priced similarily. That's way too expencive for an entire line.

You bring up Starscream, but let's face it: the guy's transformation is fairly easy and involved little animation trickery. Now that we can have really small parts we can do him right pretty nicely.

Pretty much all the Transfomers' transformation sequences involved "animation trickery." That's why the toys, in robot form, almost never had the correct proportions, and usually looked nothing like their animated forms. Of all the G1 toys, Galvatron's toy actually had some of the BEST proportions in robot mode. Take a look at his G1 toy - except for his stubby little forearms, his bodily proportions are so much better than almost every other G1 robot. If they can adapt the basic design of G1 Megatron into the incredible likeness (except for the legs) of Masterpiece Megatron, think what they could do with Galvatron. And since his alternate mode doesn't correspond to anything real, they don't have to be constrained with 100% accuracy in alt-mode. They could take liberties with his alt mode in order to make the proportions in his robot mode more cartoon-accurate. It could definitely be done.

Metal Ed wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Okay, I'll just post a bit on why people say that "accurate show TFs can't be made" with the best example. Galvatron.

Attached is a sequence of him transforming that I got from somewhere. Note the steps:

1) Galvy jumps. No Problem!
2) head goes in, cannon detaches back "holder" shifts into place. Hands ho in gauntlets. No problem!
3) Upper arms thin out, treds cover the lower arms, legs stick together. Preblems begin.
4) Lower arms have dissappeared and treds move into place. Cannon now mounted on totally different head (although that is not really a problem). Hips become square-like and legs (which have boots WAY bigger than the hips, BTW) get absorbed by the main body. His bottom .... stabalizer ... thing also begins to grow out of nowhere.
5) His "shoulder pads" move into place, legs are eaten by the body (isn't there a head in there?) and his hip "pockets" morph.
6) Magically he is in his cannon mode. You'll note that the "pole" on his back has changed shape and size and that he is now round. Oh and now he's a different color too.

Now, I love Galvatron. But he cannot be 100% toon-accurate AND transform. His transformation is animation trickery.

SOME animations models CAN be MADE TO transform, but it requires a line like Hybrid or Masterpeice to make it work. Those fan-produced Wheelie, Powerglide, and Cyclonus molds are sorta on the Hybrid Convoy lines and probably would be priced similarily. That's way too expencive for an entire line.

You bring up Starscream, but let's face it: the guy's transformation is fairly easy and involved little animation trickery. Now that we can have really small parts we can do him right pretty nicely.

Pretty much all the Transfomers' transformation sequences involved "animation trickery." That's why the toys, in robot form, almost never had the correct proportions, and usually looked nothing like their animated forms. Of all the G1 toys, Galvatron's toy actually had some of the BEST proportions in robot mode. Take a look at his G1 toy - except for his stubby little forearms, his bodily proportions are so much better than almost every other G1 robot. If they can adapt the basic design of G1 Megatron into the incredible likeness (except for the legs) of Masterpiece Megatron, think what they could do with Galvatron. And since his alternate mode doesn't correspond to anything real, they don't have to be constrained with 100% accuracy in alt-mode. They could take liberties with his alt mode in order to make the proportions in his robot mode more cartoon-accurate. It could definitely be done.

yes.....

If we look at Transformers toys as a categorical whole with corresponding supply and demand curves, I think it's safe to say that the demand for cheaper toys far exceeds more expensive toys. The examples brought up here of G1 accurate toys, toys in the Masterpiece and Hybrid lines, are upwards of 5x-10x more expensive than the scout or deluxes. Simply put, more money is to be made at the lower price points due to sheer quantities sold, and higher returns at lower prices mean decreased costs spent in R&D/Engineering of the toys. It's impractical, economically, to expect the level of sophistication you're demanding at such prices. The only reason you see the amount of detailing (washes, etc.) in MacFarlane toys or etc. is because they're specialty brands. Take the example of the Marvel Legends action figure line. It was unsustainable at Toybiz due to its (presumably) high production costs. It's now at Hasbro with less detail, paint apps, etc. Fans of ML are equally unhappy, but that's the reality of it.

Supply and demand curves aside, the 80's ascetic is simply in style. In the same way that movie Optimus Prime became a long-nosed cab with flames and a million moving parts, Classics Optimus Prime (V) cannot look the same as G1 Prime as competing toys also have a more modern ascetic. Take the GI Joe line as an example. Yes, the 25th Anniversary line is very similar to the original, but that's a secondary line catering to nostalgic collectors. Hasbro's average consumer, meaning kids, are more likely to be drawn by the Sigma 6 ascetic. You could bring up the Masterpiece line as an example, but, again, it's a line targeting collectors.

Maybe that's what Hasbro needs; a separate line for collectors who are willing to pay more to have toys engineered to look/transform like their G1 versions--a continuation of the Masterpiece, Hybrid, and maybe bring back the Alternators lines. That might be the solution that straddles a happy medium, but it doesn't make economic sense to expect what you're advocating from their kid-targeted lines.