The Energon Pub

robofreak wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:

robofreak wrote:I'm hoping that 2.22 does stray from the orginal story. Apart from a few things here and there it felt like I was rewatching the first part of Neon Genesis with awesome new CGI Angels.

It does...big time.

Also, Shinji gets hardcore.

If Shinji finally grows some balls then I'll be happy.

He does and he doesn't at the same time. Thinking on it, I'm not certain if he was being really bad ass, or if he was just throwing a temper tantrum and happened to be in an Eva at the time.

robofreak wrote:It's always bugged me that he has control of the most powerful mech ever created and is too busy lamenting his life to use it properly. I can understand where Hideako was going with that, but it really limited Neon Genesis as we never got to see the limits of what the Eva's could do.

That's because there's more to it than just giant robots (Which, mind you, Eva's aren't) punching out giant monsters. (Which Eva's are) It wasn't about the fighting, it was about the impact the fighting was having on already psychologically damaged individuals.

Also, 1.11 and 2.22 are just the DVD releases. The movies themselves would be 1.0 and 2.0.

Shadowman wrote:

robofreak wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:

robofreak wrote:I'm hoping that 2.22 does stray from the orginal story. Apart from a few things here and there it felt like I was rewatching the first part of Neon Genesis with awesome new CGI Angels.

It does...big time.

Also, Shinji gets hardcore.

If Shinji finally grows some balls then I'll be happy.

He does and he doesn't at the same time. Thinking on it, I'm not certain if he was being really bad ass, or if he was just throwing a temper tantrum and happened to be in an Eva at the time.

He's definitely hardened up in the rebuild. He smirks when he defies Misato in 1.11. It's FAR more understandable why he quits after Bardiel is destroyed. Really, who could blame him at that point? When Mari shows him the ruined landscape, he's effectively made up his mind. His intent towards Rei that decides the end of the second movie is just the cornerstone of why he's different.

Shinji was never really a pansy, even in the original. He was just broken to the point that he had no ego at all. It's like when Misato tells him to "do it because you want to do it" and he does, with a vengeful fury. You can second guess that all you want and call it a temper tantrum, but he wasn't put in the Eva, he got in it himself.

One last point, he shows a lot of character at the end when he refuses Rei's fatalistic attitude. I mean, he essentially rejects that and shapes the world to his desire; the very essence of having an ego of one's own.

Counterpunch wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

robofreak wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:

robofreak wrote:I'm hoping that 2.22 does stray from the orginal story. Apart from a few things here and there it felt like I was rewatching the first part of Neon Genesis with awesome new CGI Angels.

It does...big time.

Also, Shinji gets hardcore.

If Shinji finally grows some balls then I'll be happy.

He does and he doesn't at the same time. Thinking on it, I'm not certain if he was being really bad ass, or if he was just throwing a temper tantrum and happened to be in an Eva at the time.

He's definitely hardened up in the rebuild. He smirks when he defies Misato in 1.11. It's FAR more understandable why he quits after Bardiel is destroyed. Really, who could blame him at that point? When Mari shows him the ruined landscape, he's effectively made up his mind. His intent towards Rei that decides the end of the second movie is just the cornerstone of why he's different.

Shinji was never really a pansy, even in the original. He was just broken to the point that he had no ego at all. It's like when Misato tells him to "do it because you want to do it" and he does, with a vengeful fury. You can second guess that all you want and call it a temper tantrum, but he wasn't put in the Eva, he got in it himself.

One last point, he shows a lot of character at the end when he refuses Rei's fatalistic attitude. I mean, he essentially rejects that and shapes the world to his desire; the very essence of having an ego of one's own.

Bleh, my mistake on that point entirely. I was confusing the fight at the end with the scene where Shinji is in the Eva, screaming at Gendo because of what just happened between Unit-01 and Unit-03.

Shadowman wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

robofreak wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:

robofreak wrote:I'm hoping that 2.22 does stray from the orginal story. Apart from a few things here and there it felt like I was rewatching the first part of Neon Genesis with awesome new CGI Angels.

It does...big time.

Also, Shinji gets hardcore.

If Shinji finally grows some balls then I'll be happy.

He does and he doesn't at the same time. Thinking on it, I'm not certain if he was being really bad ass, or if he was just throwing a temper tantrum and happened to be in an Eva at the time.

He's definitely hardened up in the rebuild. He smirks when he defies Misato in 1.11. It's FAR more understandable why he quits after Bardiel is destroyed. Really, who could blame him at that point? When Mari shows him the ruined landscape, he's effectively made up his mind. His intent towards Rei that decides the end of the second movie is just the cornerstone of why he's different.

Shinji was never really a pansy, even in the original. He was just broken to the point that he had no ego at all. It's like when Misato tells him to "do it because you want to do it" and he does, with a vengeful fury. You can second guess that all you want and call it a temper tantrum, but he wasn't put in the Eva, he got in it himself.

One last point, he shows a lot of character at the end when he refuses Rei's fatalistic attitude. I mean, he essentially rejects that and shapes the world to his desire; the very essence of having an ego of one's own.

Bleh, my mistake on that point entirely. I was confusing the fight at the end with the scene where Shinji is in the Eva, screaming at Gendo because of what just happened between Unit-01 and Unit-03.

Ah, right, right. Yea, that stomping the pyramid thing was definitely a tantrum.

Okay, 2.22 was freaking amazing and got the bad taste out of my mouth from Neon Genesis.

I really wish I could have seen more Unit-5 action. That looked like an amazing mech.

Interesting take on Bardiel the 13th Angel with having Asuka be the pilot. Much more natural fit then randomly plucking Toji from the crowd. Sad thing is though is that I I need to rename one of my models now that Bardiel is the 9th Angel. (Eva-03 gone crazy for those who don't know who Baridel is)

Rei is definitely more human in this series. It makes me like the character more now that she's willingly doing stuff for others and is interacting with them as she essentially learns to be human.

Shinji finally got an awesome rating from me. When he went after the 10th Angel and willing pushed himself to the limits to save Rei, I was amazed that he had to will power to do it.

Yeah he did have his tantrum after the 9th Angel incident and not knowing if Asuka was going to survive, but that was more justifiable. Honestly, at that moment if I was in his place, I would not have just stood and stomped, I would have been destroying the geofront before they even had a chance to know what happened.

I'm curious to know what Kaworu's allegiance will be this time. He's obviously still an Angel, but it seems like he's trying prevent a lot of the events that happened. Heck, he even stopped 3rd Impact. I'm wondering if he's going to be a bit of a rebellious Angel.

Now I need model kits of Unit-05 and Unit-08. I'm wondering what 6 and 7 are going to look like.

robofreak wrote:Yeah he did have his tantrum after the 9th Angel incident and not knowing if Asuka was going to survive, but that was more justifiable. Honestly, at that moment if I was in his place, I would not have just stood and stomped, I would have been destroying the geofront before they even had a chance to know what happened.

I wouldn't. Sure, forcing Unit-01 to kill and completely brutalize Unit-03/Bardiel was a dick move on Gendo's part, but not "Destroy the facility keeping the entire damn human race from suddenly going extinct." bad.

robofreak wrote:I'm wondering if he's going to be a bit of a rebellious Angel.

What, like Satan?

Whatever Kaworu's plans is, SEELE and NERV know he's an Angel this time, and they still put him in an Eva. Even so, none of the Angels ever really had clearly defined goals. It all seemed to be "Get to Lilith" or "Wreck those jerks who have Lilith locked in their basement."

I would. It would have taught them not to do that to a kid. Seriously, it was a dick move to make Shinji have to witness that in the very Eva he was piloting. And yes, I don't think anyone would be ina state of mind to care about the population of seeing what in your mind was the murder of a friend( I guess in Asuka's case, we'll use that loosely for now) and you were forced to play a part in that then I could totally justify the destruction of Nerv.

I wasn't trying to compare Kaworu to Satan. BY rebellious, I was referring to going against what the Angels wanted. I remember episode 24 of Neon Genesis Kaworu was surprised when he breached the Geofront, got to Lillith and realized that it was not Adam who he thought was there.

I'm suspecting that he has his memories from the first go around and with knowing that it is in fact Lillith in the bottom of Nerv headquaters, I think he has a different agenda.

robofreak wrote:I would. It would have taught them not to do that to a kid. Seriously, it was a dick move to make Shinji have to witness that in the very Eva he was piloting. And yes, I don't think anyone would be ina state of mind to care about the population of seeing what in your mind was the murder of a friend( I guess in Asuka's case, we'll use that loosely for now) and you were forced to play a part in that then I could totally justify the destruction of Nerv.

So you would screw the entire world just because you refused to carry out your orders? Shinji knows damn well he's one of the few people standing in the way of the Apocalypse. They wouldn't have to have forced him if he didn't disobey their orders and actually killed the rampaging giant monster like they had asked.

Yes, your friend was in the giant rampaging monster. And that giant rampaging monster was about to kill all of your other friends. If Gendo hadn't used the Dummy Plug, a lot of people would have died. yes, it was a dick move to make Shinji watch, and yes, Eva-01 went a bit too far. But nearly killing a base full of people because you defied your orders and they had to override your vehicle is still throwing a temper tantrum.

(Also, Asuka didn't die. She will be returning in 3.0 as a pirate)

robofreak wrote:I wasn't trying to compare Kaworu to Satan.

I was!

robofreak wrote:BY rebellious, I was referring to going against what the Angels wanted.

Speaking of, what DO the Angels want? Like I said, their only two objectives were "Kill NERV" and "Get to Central Dogma." They never really had any clearly defined goals beyond that.

robofreak wrote:I'm suspecting that he has his memories from the first go around and with knowing that it is in fact Lillith in the bottom of Nerv headquaters, I think he has a different agenda.

It could be that the Angels had Instrumentality as their end goal, but they hadn't realized that only Adam and Lilith can instigate it, so they keep bum rushing Central Dogma. NERV and SEELE already know they can't do that, so they use the Eva's to kill them all off. I think, this time around, Kaworu realizes it too.

Really, as I look at it now, I think Gendo is the one with the real issues. He doesn't even have the balls to be a father to his son. All of Shinji's problems would go away if his father would just love his son instead of rejecting him because Yui is dead.

And yes, I would screw over the world if I was forced to witness the possible murder of a friend. (And yes, I know Asuka is alive. If you read my post I worded it to show at the time that Shinji had no idea what her condition was. All he new was that the entry plug had been destroyed which could only mean total disaster in most cases. You're looking at it logically which I applaud, but I can guarantee you that if you were in Shinji's shoes, you be be as emotionally compromised as he was and would probably want vengeance on the man responsible.

I also look at from the standpoint of Shinji is 14. His thinking has not developed far enough to just grit through it. While I could think of a scenario in which I could try and get Asuka's plug out of Bardiel before actually dealing with the issue at hand, I don't think I could do it under stress and being 14. At 21, maybe, but definitely not 7 years ago.

The Angels are definitely an enigma to why they are attacking in the first place. I think a lot of it stems from Adam and Lillith though. They are the first and I think they are trying to retrieve them while possibly starting instrumentality. It is already clear though that Unit-01 is neccessary for that seeing how he is born from the bottom half of Lillith.

Also, as I think of it, Rei is a clone of Yui. Shinji seems to be more in love with her this time around. Um... ew.

robofreak wrote:I also look at from the standpoint of Shinji is 14. His thinking has not developed far enough to just grit through it. While I could think of a scenario in which I could try and get Asuka's plug out of Bardiel before actually dealing with the issue at hand, I don't think I could do it under stress and being 14. At 21, maybe, but definitely not 7 years ago.

Shinji is an immature little kid and a psychologist's worst nightmare, but that doesn't mean going ballistic on your superiors is right. Gendo made the right call, but it's one of those situations where any option was either immoral or excessively dangerous. And sure, maybe Shinji doesn't understand that, but that doesn't put him in the right.

And no, I wouldn't. I think I know my 14-year-old self enough that I can safely say that, had I been in that situation, I'd either be moping about or trying to justify what I had done. And come to think of it, if Shinji had actually obeyed his orders, he'd probably have been far less brutal than Unit-01 was, and he'd probably have avoided hitting the Entry Plug.

robofreak wrote:The Angels are definitely an enigma to why they are attacking in the first place. I think a lot of it stems from Adam and Lillith though. They are the first and I think they are trying to retrieve them while possibly starting instrumentality. It is already clear though that Unit-01 is neccessary for that seeing how he is born from the bottom half of Lillith.

Well, in End of Evangelion it was Rei bonding with Lilith that caused it, since Rei contains Lilith's soul. It's also why Kaworu would have gone there; he contains the soul of Adam, but, like many others, didn't realize it was Lilith down there. On the other hand, in Rebuild, not only does he know this, he also knows where Adam's body is, and has actually been there.

robofreak wrote:Also, as I think of it, Rei is a clone of Yui. Shinji seems to be more in love with her this time around. Um... ew.

What, Shinji has bizarre psychological issues? Imagine that. Though in his defense

1) He doesn't know it's his mom and

2) Let's be honest here, we'd all gladly serve time in prison for Rei.

Where the heck is Adam's body anyways? I remember in the old stuff that Gendo put the embryo into his hand, but I'm not sure what happened to the rest of Adam after he went boom.

I know Unit-00 is also the closest genetically to Adam. All other Eva's are upgrades. Unit-01 being unique as it is actually part of Lillith which was we it is such an important component to instrumentaility.

I guess Rei qualifies as jailbait at this point.

robofreak wrote:Where the heck is Adam's body anyways? I remember in the old stuff that Gendo put the embryo into his hand, but I'm not sure what happened to the rest of Adam after he went boom.

I think that corpse on the moon they show in Rebuild was Adam. The fact that they show an Evangelion being constructed nearby adds to that.

robofreak wrote:I know Unit-00 is also the closest genetically to Adam. All other Eva's are upgrades. Unit-01 being unique as it is actually part of Lillith which was we it is such an important component to instrumentaility.

Well, yeah, but like I said, in End of Evangelion, Unit-01 had nothing to do with Instrumentality.

robofreak wrote:I guess Rei qualifies as jailbait at this point.

She always qualified as jailbait...well, maybe not during that whole "Turning into a gigantic monster and reducing the human race to psychic Kool-Aid" thing, but you know what I mean.

Unit-01 was pretty important to Intrumentality in The End of Evangelion.

*He is a child of Lillith

*He is the only Eva to successfully incorporate an S2 engine into himself

*He merged with the Lance of Longinus to create the tree of life. Which was neccessary as at that point Shinji became God as Gendo put it.

Without Unit-01, Instrumentality would have never happened.

robofreak wrote:Unit-01 was pretty important to Intrumentality in The End of Evangelion.

*He is a child of Lillith

*He is the only Eva to successfully incorporate an S2 engine into himself

*He merged with the Lance of Longinus to create the tree of life. Which was neccessary as at that point Shinji became God as Gendo put it.

Without Unit-01, Instrumentality would have never happened.

Correct me if I'm wrong because I never actually watched End of Evangelion...but didn't Instrumentality start when Rei merged with Lilith?

robofreak wrote:Unit-01 was pretty important to Intrumentality in The End of Evangelion.

*He is a child of Lillith

Technically, Unit-01 is a clone of Lilith.

robofreak wrote:*He is the only Eva to successfully incorporate an S2 engine into himself

All of the production models had S2 engines.

And although, angels and Evangelions are genderless, it would be much more appropriate to call Unit-01 "she". Since it contains the soul of Yui.

But, yes, like you said Unit-01 was necessary for Instrumentality to take place.

Shadowman wrote:Speaking of, what DO the Angels want? Like I said, their only two objectives were "Kill NERV" and "Get to Central Dogma." They never really had any clearly defined goals beyond that.

The Angels goal was to destroy all Lilith based life on earth. Just as the humans goal was to destroy all Adam based life. Adam and Lilith based life were never meant to co-exist, but the problem was, Earth received both a White Moon, and a Black Moon.

Only partially. Lillith woke up when being merged with Rei. Shinji while being restrained by the production series saw the horror that was now Rei and started screaming. The Lance of Longinus somehow came out of orbit and then merged with Unit-01's core. Shinji then kind of fell asleep as Lillith embrace the Sephiroth tree that was now Shinji, the lance, and Unit-01. Instrumentality then began. Rei and Shinji are like A and B components to Instrumentality. Unit-01 is important due to being spawn of Lillith. (Actually, being the entire lower half of her)

Gendo said something in the movie about Shinji has now become God. He holds our fate in his hands. At that point everyone turns into LCL goo until he rejects Instrumentality.

But the movie stresses a big importantce on Unit-01 being needed for Instrumentality. Even the Rebuild stresses that. Not directly, but they always say that repairs to Unit-01 take precedence over everything.

robofreak wrote:Rei and Shinji are like A and B components to Instrumentality. Unit-01 is important due to being spawn of Lillith. (Actually, being the entire lower half of her)

Shinji was necessary for SEELE's ideal Instrumentality. After breaking his spirits down, they fully expected he would accept Instrumentality. However, he is not required for Third Impact to take place.

robofreak wrote:Gendo said something in the movie about Shinji has now become God. He holds our fate in his hands. At that point everyone turns into LCL goo until he rejects Instrumentality.

In Gendo's ideal version of Third Impact, he is in control instead of Shinji. Gendo worked hard to have Rei II trust him. But, when she died, and Rei III came along, she rejected him and chose Shinji instead.

According to TVtropes, the Angels also have Third Impact as their main goal. The conflict comes from everyone wanting to have their own people be at the center of it.

Also, only slightly relevant, but here's Shinji's opinion of the final two episodes of the anime.

Shadowman wrote:According to TVtropes, the Angels also have Third Impact as their main goal. The conflict comes from everyone wanting to have their own people be at the center of it.

Also, only slightly relevant, but here's Shinji's opinion of the final two episodes of the anime.

I was hoping for a bit more of a freak out, but that was pretty funny.

Anyways, I think at this point Evangelion is like G1. It's so screwed up you can make your own idea about it and generally be right.

robofreak wrote:Anyways, I think at this point Evangelion is like G1. It's so screwed up you can make your own idea about it and generally be right.

Not necessarily. Evangelion is more a culmination of so many different themes that people end up seeing it differently. There's the psychological aspect, the biblical aspect, the war aspect, etc. But G1 doesn't have this. It was meant as a kids show, there is no deeper meaning outside of "Buy a toy of this guy." The different views are either because of people trying to reconcile writing errors and, in particular, the scale issue, or people projecting ideas and elements that were never really there.

So, in that way at least, the two are like mirror images of each other. With Evangelion, everyone takes something different away from it in an attempt to make sense of it all. With Transformers, everyone injects something different into it in an attempt to make sense of it all.

The two are not mirror images of each other in any other aspect. Just want to make that clear.

robofreak wrote:Anyways, I think at this point Evangelion is like G1. It's so screwed up you can make your own idea about it and generally be right.

Like Shadowman says, there is certainly one correct interpretation, and many wrong ones.

Still, not stopping anyone from having their own idea about it, which is the beauty of fiction!

Shadowman wrote: the biblical aspect,

There is no biblical aspects in NGE, outside of the names that are used (Adam, Lilith, Angels, etc...).

Shadowman wrote:the Angels also have Third Impact as their main goal. The conflict comes from everyone wanting to have their own people be at the center of it.

Correct. The Angels, SEELE, and Gendo each want to have their own version of Third Impact.

Angels: Come into contact with Lilith, and create an Anti-A.T. field. By breaking down all Lilith based life's A.T. Fields, all life on Earth will revert to LCL, and be destroyed. Leaving Adam based life to re-populate the Earth, like it was originally intended.

SEELE: Have the soul of Adam, and Lilith, the Body od Adam, and Lilith contact each other, but with Shinji (piloting Unit-01) to be in control. SEELE painstakingly arrange to make Shinji depressed, and utterly broken by the time their Instrumentality was to take place. They assumed Shinji would accept Instrumentality and all the human souls would be gathered into Lilith's Black Moon, where they would achieve the "next step in human evolution."

Gendo: With Yui's soul inside of Unit-01, and a clone of her body as Rei, Gendo theorized that by implanting the embryonic Adam into his hand, and fusing it with Rei, he would cause a Third Impact which he would control, where he would be able to 're-assemble' Yui. Gendo spent the most of Rei II's life making her trust him. When Rei II was killed, he was forced to start again with Rei III. When Gendo attempted the to initiate Third Impact, Rei III rejected his control, and gave it to Shinji.

Jesterhead wrote:

Shadowman wrote: the biblical aspect,

There is no biblical aspects in NGE, outside of the names that are used (Adam, Lilith, Angels, etc...).

I am not well versed enough in NGE background material to enter into any kind of worthwhile discussion; I'm happy just to listen for now, but I can confirm that there are no biblical aspects in NGE.

Flat out, the creators used Christian terms, names, and symboloism expressly because "It looked and sounded cool." I've seen that multiple times in interviews and it's in the post-text of the Shinji Ikari Raising Project manga (I think...I've read so much stuff lately I can get confused as to where and what things came from).

I'm going to have to argue the whole no religion in NGE. I mean yeah, the symbolism was cool, but a fair amount of research had to be done for stuff like the sephiroth tree, Lance of Longinus, dead sea scrolls stuff.

The fact that they had to research it and that the characters do have a general belief does put a certain biblical aspect to it.

robofreak wrote:I'm going to have to argue the whole no religion in NGE. I mean yeah, the symbolism was cool, but a fair amount of research had to be done for stuff like the sephiroth tree, Lance of Longinus, dead sea scrolls stuff.

The fact that they had to research it and that the characters do have a general belief does put a certain biblical aspect to it.

All they do is say those words though. They don't have any real implication to the stories that make up either Testament.

Jesterhead wrote:Correct. The Angels, SEELE, and Gendo each want to have their own version of Third Impact.

Angels: Come into contact with Lilith, and create an Anti-A.T. field. By breaking down all Lilith based life's A.T. Fields, all life on Earth will revert to LCL, and be destroyed. Leaving Adam based life to re-populate the Earth, like it was originally intended.

Actually, the Angels are trying to achieve Complementation with ADAM, not Lilith. Tabris said as much once he breached Terminal Dogma. He had no idea what would happen if a Spawn of ADAM attempted to merge with Lilith. Using Lilth's Anti-AT field was part of SEELE's Scenario.

SEELE: Have the soul of Adam, and Lilith, the Body od Adam, and Lilith contact each other, but with Shinji (piloting Unit-01) to be in control. SEELE painstakingly arrange to make Shinji depressed, and utterly broken by the time their Instrumentality was to take place. They assumed Shinji would accept Instrumentality and all the human souls would be gathered into Lilith's Black Moon, where they would achieve the "next step in human evolution."

Actually, both Shinji and Asuka were broken as part of the Scenario, and for the same reason Yui and Kyoko were made part of the Evas in the Contact Experiments: so that the Children would bond to the Evas (and only the Evas) and defeat the Angels. IIRC, the Evas were never supposed to be part of the Red Earth Ceremony, not until Gendo lost the Lance and Shogoki gained an S2 organ. What we saw in EoE was Seele's Plan B.

Gendo: With Yui's soul inside of Unit-01, and a clone of her body as Rei, Gendo theorized that by implanting the embryonic Adam into his hand, and fusing it with Rei, he would cause a Third Impact which he would control, where he would be able to 're-assemble' Yui. Gendo spent the most of Rei II's life making her trust him. When Rei II was killed, he was forced to start again with Rei III. When Gendo attempted the to initiate Third Impact, Rei III rejected his control, and gave it to Shinji.

Yeah, Rei III gained the memories of Rei II, and remembered how much she cared for Shinji.