The Energon Pub

We are having the same argument gain about G1 style Vs Michael Bay. Obviously alot of G1 aspects wouldn't work, the live action movie has what I always thought the faces should be like, well how they should work, alot of G1 toys had slits and there jaws were like puppets and were on hinges, it's only cartoon animaters used to drawing humans who made there faces liquid metal as it was easy to draw. Some of Micahaels bays transformers have things that could be imported, I don't see why there has to be so much kibble on G1 why can't the kibble fold down more, toys have cost restrictions so the more arts the more money, so kiblle is just cost restrictions, some parts could easily be folded away. G1 is more about style and story, it wasn't perfect, but there was far more character development in G1 episode one than the whole of the Michael Bays franchise so far. Starscream has hardly any lines, we don't get the real feel of the characters.
Let's face it Michael Bays TFs are totaly unrealistic, even the designers admited they don't transform, they move aload of parts then jump to another model. G1 can work an there have been many adaptations, including thye comic universe, its just about taking the best of everything and yes some lessons learnt from Micahael Bay.
They haven't altered spiderman much nd it works, they altered mario an street fighter and it was rubbish, and mortal kombat stayed fairly true and turned out better, the less alterations seems to make the movie better, and thats a fact, the proof is already out there.

Last of all yes ROTF is a fun film to watch, but it's not a great film by any standards. G1 had so many characters and still so much personality, ROTF has too much time on spikes parents getting stoned and flirting with each other. And to many obviously dumb characters like MUDFLAP & SKIDS, I mean we all new they would be wrong as soon as we heard about them, how comes they didn't. Aswell as there beeing proof of all the movies which stay true to there inspiration beeing alot better than those who have taken there own spin on things, there is also proof that G1 style would work in live action as there is so much fan made live action CGI out there which prove sthey can move around in real life and some have the limitations of a G1 toy, Masterpiece shows that more twists and turns can be added to G1. Roofs of cars could fold up a few more times so wouldn't have to be hanging of the backs like the toys do. Things can be updated, look at IDWs G1 now, it's still G1 but updated, G1 can eveolve too, yes people will still complain, but things have to evolve I understand that.
I'm a designer myself so I fully understand the design process, and G1 works better on so many levels, Michael baysys transformers look so fragile, yes they may be made of strong metal but wouldn't having the same metal made of less small parts be stronger. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and this is mine, alot of other people agree, and enough too make it a reality.

I was mostly agreeing with you until you got here...

Let's face it Michael Bays TFs are totaly unrealistic, even the designers admited they don't transform, they move aload of parts then jump to another model.

What source is this from? In the special features they mentioned each frame of the robots moving took 32 hours to make because they DID TransForm.

And true, the IDW style could work but the Decepticons just wouldn't look all that fierce.
And about them looking flimsy, I don't see how movie BoneCrusher or Brawl looked flimsy, only the ROTF one's looked slightly because they used more flat parts of the vehicles so they wouldn't have to put as much work into it like they did in the 07 movie. Even Megatron's 07 form compared to his ROTF one looked stronger(to me).

They look flimsy compared to a more armoured G1 look or energon or even animated, so many exposed parts, if something so complicated had a slight dent it would be unable to transform, even a bit of dirt getting in the way would stop something so complicated an exposed, even G1 would have problems with dented panels etc, but The movie bots don't look like they are designed for battle then be able to transform after.
There is definently some footage out there of them admiting that they don't technicaly transform, it was definently around the time of the first movie.

THIS THREAD IS BASED AROUND THE FACT THAT IF WAR FOR CYBERTRON IS AS GOOD AS IT LOOKS IT COULD SPARK A GREATER INTEREST TO EXPLORE THE G1 UNIVERSE AND STYLE ETC. Maybe in live action or a cgi animation.

As someone said earlier its becuase of us people picking all the flaws in films, is the rerason the movie industry is going down hill, well wouldn't that be like people picking flaws with G1, saying how megatron changed mass from a hige robot to a tiny gun, the argument works both ways. I don't care if theychange megatron to a tank or a gun, I just want him to look like Megatron, I want them to look good, thats why we buy transformers, becuase they look good. Thats what determins what ones we buy, yeah there maybe some character atatchment and loyalty.

Amen to that!

Sorry but I'm just not seeing how http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/File:Movie-brawl-1.jpg
looks flimsy...
And it seems if they are dented they TransForm fine as BumbleBee did and so did ROTF Megatron.

The all caps of what this thread is about was un-needed, I know what it's about, but how will War for Cybertron put interest for people who don't even know what G1 is?

Lastly considering how much money ROTF made despite it's flaws it doesn't seem to be going downhill at all...

(Oh and you(DTR69) said the video of them admitting that is out there, mind posting a link or something? It'd be helpful)

The all caps was for peeps who might just think this is just another argument for a G1 movie, which it kind of is but more about the fact that war of cybertron will show people G1 history, War of cybertron is a revamp of the orginal more than meets the eyes episode arival from cybertron and various other G1 episodes. They are modern takes on the g1 history with a few alterations. The follow up will obviously be there arival on earth. If the game is good then it will icrease old and new interest in the g1 era.

http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/File ... rawl-1.jpg

that link proove smy point, look at how many thin bits of metal are poking out, if the same type of metal, which was simpler in form hit that, what piece do you think will come out better. Remeber when your mate would cycle by when you was a kid, and you stuck a stick through the spokes, well brawl is covbered in exposed areas where objects inserted would stop him moving, his elbow joints don't look to sturdy either. future technology is simpler not more complicated. And g1 style bots look armoured, there simplicity is what makes them more suitable for battle. Loads of small connectiosn will always be weaker than fewer larger connections, and thats a fact.

I'm sorry I can't find the link where the designers admited that the designs can fully transform, but if you can find a scene where the transformers fully transform clearly [not far off in the distance] without scenes beeing cut out then I'm wrong, but we all know there is no scene in any of the movies. Its all just over complicated to give the wow factor, they obviously thought transforming wasn't good enough, they had to over elaborate it.

And the only thing that seems to have any promise is War for Cybertron which at the end of the day is G1 based and not some twisted idea of what transformers could be, and so far it looks like it works, why fix something if it ain't broke.

All I'm saying is that video games are big influenses now and that war for cybertron could reintroduce G1 there for leading to a g1 based movie, they have remade hulk and batman which all had recent incarnations only a few years before. Yes I maybe overestimating the demand for G1 but alot of you are underestimating it. More people know about G1 than you think. The amount of girls who come round my house who see my collection get all nostalgic, so many people I know who are not transformers enthusiasts `ll say how transformers was a massive part of there child hood. The best selling transformer comics are g1, g1 is still the leading force in the transformers franchise, animated, energon they all come and go, but g1 is constantly evolving, through Bt ALTs, MPs , Classics/Universe. So if they are to do a remake, War for Cybertron could spur that.

Well you pretty much killed me there....with exception to one thing, I doubt the metal they are made of is that weak, it'd most likely break whatever was in the way.

And the only thing that seems to have any promise

Hmm...sounds a bit....for lack of a better term: "Geewunnerish"
Though you are right, small connections aren't as strong...but from a purely movie standpoint the G1 designs just don't look realistic.

And you say who are not TransFormers fans...but still say major part of their childhood, meaning 20 years ago.
Since TransFormers is a brand based on toys for kids(who do not know what G1 is even with War for Cybertron) they aren't going to want more G1 most likely.

don't agree. IDW, Dreamwave, these may be reboots of a sort, but they are, without a doubt, GENERATION 1. While IDW pumps out a G1 comic, then it lives. I suppose thats how you see it and thats fair play but i see it another way, its all down to the individual. No ones winning this one.

No it's called a dictionary. But that flawed logic Sexfighter, you could say sky is red, and try redefine what the color red is, but if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, quacks like a duck.....it's remake. There is no opinion to this, I have you dead to rights in this debate. Emotional responses aren't facts about a subject.

You admitted it's a reboot in your own post. There no such thing as sorta a reboot, it is or isn't. You're mincing words trying find a leg to stand on. it's not working, especially if you confirm what I'm saying in your own post.

Is it a direct continuation of G1 either comics or the cartoon...no.(it's not even continued off of Dreamwave.) Then how is not by definition a remake/reboot? I don't usually try play lawyer ball and beat people down with technicalities, but this is an absolutely clear thing here. People are trying extend a concept beyond it's true meaning to justify their point.

I can't make my point any more clear without continuing repeat myself over and over. I don't think I've used word continuity on this site collectively than I have in this single thread. G1 one is as dead as disco.

And what do you mean by G1?
- the first cartoon? Nope, it wasn't the first "G1", the comic was published earlier.
- the first comic series? What makes it better than the rest of the series that use the same characters? Since:
- or perhaps: the figures? Since G1 was a figure line at first, any comic/cartoon can be seen as spin-offs. Thus, under various names, every year newer and newer figures come to light, just see the last toyfair pictures with Straxxus. Plus, the new figures' bios make it clear they are from the G1 universes.

Chaoslock wrote:And what do you mean by G1?
- the first cartoon? Nope, it wasn't the first "G1", the comic was published earlier.
- the first comic series? What makes it better than the rest of the series that use the same characters? Since:
- or perhaps: the figures? Since G1 was a figure line at first, any comic/cartoon can be seen as spin-offs. Thus, under various names, every year newer and newer figures come to light, just see the last toyfair pictures with Straxxus. Plus, the new figures' bios make it clear they are from the G1 universes.

Both the original comic and series are finished, doesn't matter which you pick. Everything that's followed is a remake of G1. Transformers is a multiverse, even if something is alot like whatever previous edition, the very backstory has a built in reasoning for it not being the same universe. Just like All star batman and Superman are separate from the main lines despite being retellings of older stories.

They look flimsy compared to a more armoured G1 look or energon or even animated, so many exposed parts, if something so complicated had a slight dent it would be unable to transform, even a bit of dirt getting in the way would stop something so complicated an exposed, even G1 would have problems with dented panels etc, but The movie bots don't look like they are designed for battle then be able to transform after.

And characters of G1 couldn't even transform into whatever their alt mode was. Such as Ratchet, as there was absolutely no attempt at realism in G1 to either scale or accurate mass to alt mode. They were often devoid of any detail. They ignored it. So compare something that actually uses the pieces of whatever it turns into versus something that was created for a completely different purpose and intent is a poor line of logic.

Whether you liked the exoskeleton designs or not is besides the point. They actually looked like whatever they turned into as you could see the parts.

G1 would looked like space jam with real people in the live action film. What looks good in live action, and what looks good in comics and cartoons are two very different things. (some super hero outfits look ridiculous in live action.)

War for Cybertron is not a green light to fans everywhere suddenly wanting everything be G1 all over again. It was simply a point in time where Transformers has finally become popular enough to warrant making a transformers game for the sake of making a kick butt transformers game. It's happens be style the makers of the game designed they wanted as long time fans, especially after previous movie tie in game featured alot of G1 skins, they had the desire continue it. (which they deviated from the G1 previous canon a bit, they made some new character Zeta Prime in place of Sentinel Prime if they were so intent of being 100% accurate to all that is G1.) Long as the game kicks butt I could careless which version it follows.

I'd compare this to the retro movement in video games. Capcom has mucked around with making 8 bit megaman in Megaman Zx:Advent, as was a hidden skin and mini game. Fans liked it, so they thought it be fun do it again since it's not only cheaper but the original megaman series plays better in 8-bit than 16 or 32 bit because all extra animation frames made the gameplay much more clunky. Ultimately they could make the game retain the core gameplay and been up to snuff with the current handhelds level of graphics even as DLC game, and fans would have still loved it because the game was FUN! Not because fans just love 8 bit graphics more than they love new graphics. The new Wii mario game is a hit for same reason, it took all core stuff of the original series and gets it right.

Transformers is same way, it isn't fans desire G1 2.0 , they just want transformers done well. The packaging is irrelevent. You fan boys need get over G1, the rest of the world has. Bay's movie's would been a huge flop, as would beast wars or animated(I didn't intially care for animated's art style, but the story won me over. it was one of the best story driven transformers experiences, if it picked a more serious drawing style, it probably would still be going.). None of them were clones of G1, each looked different, but the characters were very similar.

Well you pretty much killed me there....with exception to one thing, I doubt the metal they are made of is that weak, it'd most likely break whatever was in the way.

As someone who was in the air force, someone said they look weak as I scoff at that remark. Scornok in the first film alone shows incredibly durability as he gets shot by missiles, bombs and the main gun of an A-10. He'
s sickly durable in fact. A-10 fire hundreds of rounds of depleted urannuim out of it's main chain gun, which splits real life tanks in half in secs. It's gun so powerful it slows the plane down when it fires, if it continues to fire for too long it can actually stall out it's own engines anc crash. Scorponok took all that and the side guns of a C-130 howitzer before showing any real damage. (which those shells are about a foot long and 4-5 inches in diameter.)

The characters were also said to have force fields surrounding them in the first film when the rangers scanned Blackout. They don't need as much armor then. Between all damage several Decepticons and Autobots withstood between both films, I never got the impression they were fragile.

Scornok in the first film alone shows incredibly durability as he gets shot by missiles, bombs and the main gun of an A-10. He'

OH! OF COURSE! How could I forget that? It's my main argument of why Scorponok shouldn't have been killed so easily...thanks for reminding me of that.

Lastly, the DVD special features specifically say the movie bots DO completely TransForm, they spent like a half an hour on that section...I don't see why they'd admit on film that they don't transform when they admitted on film already that they do...
Lastly...don't quote me on this, but I think BumbleBee has a full TransFormation scene just after fighting Barricade...not 100% sure.

But I know Blackout has a 100% TransFormation shown near the end.

WE all know what G1 is. G1 by it's very nature is about realism. It's about true vehicles, BTs are G1, just becuase designers had restrictions doesn't mean if a toy is poseable and is titled Alternators then it's not G1. You have to remember they had restrictions and lack of production technology, if G1 was made to day as it is, therfore we have Clasiccs/Universe.

Why does having armour which sometimes can look blocky mean it won't look realistic? You have to remember G1 transformers take their robot form from the alternate mode. The alternate mode dictates how the robot will look. Michaels Bay transformers have a robot designed whch could turn into anything. WHere does those forearm guards on Bumblebees arms come from, where have all the furnishings inside the car gone. There are parts on them that have come from no where. If you have a rounded form alternate mode then the robot mode will probaly not be that blocky.

I too and dead against fluid faces, I think they should be mechanical like the movies, the G1 toys had slits and hinges if you lok a some of them. But the faces looked good, when I see goofy faces it just turns me off, it all strted more or less after G1 together with dodgy limbs etc I'm all for diversity but not patronising all kids will think this dumb look is crazy ha ha ha. G2 oh look bright colours kids will go for that.

I just don't understand why some people would be so dead against a more G1 stylised movie, with more emphasis on robots and character development, and yes with more armoured looking robots, with human like proportions [please don't say there aliens, cause all though they are, why do some of them like prime stay tryue to g1 proportions and the rest are monsters, wheres the consistency], with everything in the right place, and knees which bend in the right direction. Why, if just so it looks good. After all you have let these monstosaties happily let the world think that this is what we are fans of. I'm embarassed to tell people now I like transformers.

You know what will happen now, they will make a gundam movie and keep them looking more or less the same, and that movie will be much better. Spiderman and batman run round the city in tight lycra and fight crime, no one bats an eye lid.

Of course G1 ain't perfect, but the elements that were dropped were the ones needed to make Michaels bay movie good. If you hate G1 so much why do you bother with Transformers at all. Movies are full of bright and wonderfull characters from peoples imaginations. I Have stopped collecting original G1 in favour of more posable figures, but still G1 orientated. G1 isn't just a toy or a cartoon, it isn't just things labeled G1. If you don't know what G1 really is then you are missing the point, if you can't see that an ALT / BT is G1.

SEE HOW THE TOYS OF THE MOVIE ARE VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE FILM - THE SAME WITH G! THERE ARE RESTRICTIONS, SO PLEASE STOP BASING YOUR OPINIONS ON BLOCKY TOYS. USE YOUR IMAGINATION, REMEMBER THE PICS ON THE BOX, AND HOW DISAPOINTING THE TOY WAS, ALL THAT COULD BE FIXED. BLOCY TOYS WERE BECUASE OF MONEY, IMAGINE G1 WITH NO LIMITATIONS - A TRANSFORMER WITH ARMOUR AND NO SILLY FRAGILE POINTS. MOVIE PRIME WAS ALMOST THERE, IF HE HAD MORE ARMOUR AND THEY KEPT ONE OF THE ORIGINAL CONCEPT DESIGNS. HIS FACE WOULD BE OK IF THEY DIDN'T PUT HIS MOUTH WHERE HIS CHIN SHOULD BE. If bumblebee can just scan a car and morph to it in a second why do they need to transform mechanicaly anyway?

It might just be a Geek Vs just a Transformer Fan thing I don't know.

I know one thing it's definently A Japanese style Vs American style which has to go over the top. Lets face it the Japanese have got style that the western world are in awe of. American cars are bold and brash when Japanese cars and european cars, look so much better. It's to do with the people in charge. I bet everyone of you, eve the people who disagree with me, could do a better job than Michael Bay, if not would still be able to advise him not to make silly mistakes, and I don't mean Transformers as such, I mean character and plot. Look at the artwork coming out of america for transformers, but then you get some one way at the top, who doesn't know how to use all thye talent there in america, and ends up puting a d*khead in charge.

DTR69, oh are you just asking for me orbital bombardment your post. So much that I disagree with that you posted. In any case I'm going bring the rain.

(I'm guessing you're not a native English speaker, as the errors are consistent with someone who is. Not taking any potshots with this, and implying a lack of intelligence solely based off of style as I make tons of errors when I go full on rant mode, just stating your post had alot to point made some of what you said more difficult to decipher. If I wasn't sure where you were going with it I didn't quote it.)

We all know what G1 is. G1 by it's very nature is about realism. It's about true vehicles, BTs are G1, just because designers had restrictions doesn't mean if a toy is poseable and is titled Alternators then it's not G1.

You clearly have your nostalgia goggles on much to tight sir. G1 is the anti-realism. It follows the rule of cool first and foremost.( http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool ) Sure they used real vehicles for some characters, but there's more than enough examples where they didn't. So robots that turn into Dinosaurs (which none of their sizes were in scale) , Random futuristic/non-earth designed vehicles, monsters and other crazy things that don't really exist just screams realism. (just to try make sense of Skylynx lol.) G1 completely ignored scale regularly.(even stuff that was same alt mode, just read here http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Scale )

Like I said some characters like Ratchet couldn't even turn into their alt modes in the cartoon. There physically wasn't enough mass to form a van.(I know there's other offenders but he's first that comes to mind, him and Ironhide.) Other characters mass shifted between modes plenty, which they effectively couldn't turn into what they were for that reason.

Not say all transformers besides G1 were filled with realism, but the movie was only one come remotely close on the scale stuff. G1 was probably the worst offender of the bunch in that regard.

Why does having armor which sometimes can look blocky mean it won't look realistic?

Newer things are sleeker smoother, and smaller. G1 was conceived in the 80s, and blocker stuff was considered high tech(just look at the cybertronian forms, and future cars in movies around that time.), now days bigger and bulkier is considered lower tech. Original look was a product of it's time, and the newer ones are a product of this time.

Where does those forearm guards on Bumblebees arms come from, where have all the furnishings inside the car gone. There are parts on them that have come from no where. If you have a rounded form alternate mode then the robot mode will probably not be that blocky.

You seem to have failed to notice something the transformers in the new film showed they could do...change on the fly. This clearly demonstrated several times, as they can adjust and move around any parts with in their body. Between bumble bee and frenzy scanning new alt modes and immediately changing, Black out moving his tail helicopter blade to his hand for a weapon, Prime altering the size of his energy blades from swords to hooks, and Megatron altering his hand from a blade to a device to hold Sam down to examine him. They use their body as both tools and weapons in this series. They did in G1 as well, but was much more random how each transformer did it, and usually was a one shot deal. (such as prime energon axe, or Jazz's grappling hook hand.)

In the new film it's simply whatever existing parts can be applied in different ways and altered to an extent. You do see plenty of existing parts when they transform. It's likely whatever is inside just gets shifted all around. I mean they technically could erase all semblance of being a vehicle they transformed into if they wanted to. Likely just more effort on their part. They seem have operating limits they comfortably stay with in.

I just don't understand why some people would be so dead against a more G1 stylised movie, with more emphasis on robots and character development, and yes with more armored looking robots, with human like proportions.

Because they re alien technology, or rather autonomous robotic organisms from the planet Cybertron. They should look like something from another planet, not like something general motors made....except in alt mode hehe. People who were transformers fans were no the project, so don't think oh people who hated transformers made this. You think Bay knew to reference Kup's move against blitzwing with Jazz and Brawl on his own? No way, people who knew the material were on the job, if the G1 style would have flown in real life, we'd probably seen it. G1 wasn't based off what looks good in real life, was based off what looks cool in a cartoon...Period.

I'm not against G1, I'm against transformers looking terribly unrealistic in the movies. I accept each era as it's own entity. I don't ever expect any era be a carbon copy of G1 or anything else. You should do the same, as this happening for 25 years....where's this second coming of G1 you seem think happened for you to get the notion they're going to do it again?

Hasbro is like super villains, never repeat the same scheme twice heh. There isn't a single era that's the same. Why would they start now? Fanboy-girls crying loud enough? Geewuners are the minority...always have been or the 86 film wouldn't have horribly bombed. Which why Hasbro made little attempt to try revived it over and over. (see here http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Ruined_forever , you sound exactly like this article)

Some Transformers conservationists suggest a more extreme approach, that Transformers franchise should abandon all attempts at re-invention and instead cater exclusively to the old-school collectors. Though attractive, this approach may prove impractical as a long-term solution.

Comics tried to cater to old the long term fans, and they imploded because of it. If it wasn't for the films marvel still would be in the red. Wasn't till Spiderman Marvel was finally off life support.

Please don't say there aliens, cause all though they are, why do some of them like prime stay true to g1 proportions and the rest are monsters, wheres the consistency.

"Why do your ask questions you already know the answer to ,Charles?" Yes of course they re aliens, why should they be limited to G1...or being exactly like humans? You failed pay very close attention to new movies. I have a toy of Prime on my desk as I'm typing this. Movie prime does NOT HAVE his G1 proportions. He's built like my girlfriend,he's all legs. G1 one prime was not near as leggy. Go and take a long hard look at Prime again. Bumble bee much closer to leg to upper body proportions to each other. Prime is not.

There was no consistent design scheme as they got bots with wheels for feet, bots with no legs at all, each was quite unique, which was what I believe they were going for. (yet some people complain they all looked the same...)

Why, if just so it looks good. After all you have let these monstrosity happily let the world think that this is what we are fans of. I'm embarrassed to tell people now I like transformers.

Now you just sound silly. Why should you be a closet fan of anything? Transformers is more popular now than it's ever been. Why should you be embarrassed? You didn't make it, so Bay's work is no personal reflection on your being. Not like this is freaking KISS Players or Tentacle Hentai. I will openly admit I am a fan of anything I like, especially not something completely mainstream like Transformers. Saying you like transformers is like saying you like Video games or Star wars, more than enough other people share your interest, even if they don't so what?(the same jackasses who will mock you now probably would have 10 years ago.) If anything you might be able to get them to watch the parts you do like with you and have something to share.

I've been a fan since the beginning, I don't have to convince my niece and nephew why Optimus Prime is one of the greatest heroes of all time, they just know, they've seen him themselves. Our love for this crazy franchise has finally been validated to rest of the planet and you're crying about it? Reminds me of some wisdom I once heard, Why do hotdogs come in 8s and buns come in 12s? It doesn't matter , just be happy you have a hotdog. In this case a new series of transformers. There's enough dead things from my childhood, it's nice see the adventures continue. My inner 6 year old still loves watch giant robots beat the heck out of each other.

Everything you liked is still there. Not like a new generation of transformers caused the old to cease to exist. I've had versions of things I like come out wrong. (contra has had several bad games over the years.) I just don't buy the parts I don't like, I ignore it.

Poor sonic fans have been drug through the mud for last 10 years. Sonic 4 is finally coming out, they might actually get a decent game. They have far worse to be sad about than Transformers fans ever will. If something is good it will manage rise to the top, and parts that suck will be forgotten.

Of course G1 ain't perfect, but the elements that were dropped were the ones needed to make Michael bay movie good. If you hate G1 so much why do you bother with Transformers at all. Movies are full of bright and wonderful characters from peoples imaginations.

I don't hate G1. I do however dislike the 86 film, which put a damper on most of the following season and characters for me. Some grew on me , some I still wish to melt down. Some people love it, but I find it to be a fairly weak story, and the whole lets murder tons of characters and retcon a bunch of crap never sat well with me. Even as a kid I'm like Why the heck does Matrix of Leadership kill Unicron....it just does. (my nephew ironically asked me same thing when he saw it.) Just look here for more details about all that. (viewtopic.php?f=27&t=49426)

Whether someone likes G1 or not does not make them more or less a transformers fan. Like saying if someone doesn't like Legend of Zelda on nintendo they re not a true gamer. May be it didn't speak to them initially, may be it just didn't age well, or just wasn't for them.

I've seen fans who didn't grow up during the 80s and go what the heck did you people ever see in any of the cartoons you guys watched. Yet they liked the stuff that followed up later, like Robots in disguise, and the Unicron Trilogy. That's what they grew up with. I ignored those shows for majority, as they weren't for me. It wasn't till the new films did I find something I liked since Beast wars transformers related.

SEE HOW THE TOYS OF THE MOVIE ARE VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE FILM

STOP USING THE CAPS LOCK BUTTON OR I WILL COME TO YOU HOUSE WITH A SCREWDRIVER AND REMOVE IT.(or think it really hard.) You have lost your caps lock license has been revoked, please use your shift key sparingly.

If bumblebee can just scan a car and morph to it in a second why do they need to transform mechanically anyway?

He can reformat on the fly, but he still has be something of similar size and mass to his own body. Plus there's the whole disguise aspect of it all. What would be the point of repeatedly reformatting if ultimately his robot mode wouldn't change much for it? It has a disguise that worked, and ran with it. He only changed it because if he was the 2008 Camaro from the beginning Sam could have never plausibly bought him for 4000 dollars. He needed be something cheap enough(why the 76 Camaro), but Bee still has his ego, and he had established his contact with Sam, was free to spice himself up then.

It might just be a Geek Vs just a Transformer Fan thing I don't know.

I am both a geek and transformers fan, has nothing to do with either of those things. Has more to do with you're in love with G1, and can't get over it or even be honest with yourself that you are.

know one thing it's definently A Japanese style Vs American style which has to go over the top. Lets face it the Japanese have got style that the western world are in awe of. American cars are bold and brash when Japanese cars and european cars, look so much better.

I prescribe to Sturgeons Law with America, Japan or any other part of the world....90% of everything is crap! I take what's good and useful then forget the rest. (it's a good policy with life in general, as Bruce Lee suggested the same for Martial arts when he developed his style.) Plenty of people around the world like both flavors just fine. Stop being such a fanboy for everything you like and try take a more balanced view. You seem think everything you love is only way do anything.

It's to do with the people in charge. I bet everyone of you, even the people who disagree with me, could do a better job than Michael Bay.

Yes you've established you, and Sexfighter both hate all that is Bay. The Baytred is strong with this one. Besides from that; Can you suggest anything constructive to the movies besides reverting it to a love letter to G1?(look what making a love letter to an older brand did for superman as Singer did that toward the Donner films.) How about picking ideas from other stuff, like I'd love see Silverbolt take personality traits from Beast Wars in the third film. I think there's plenty of room for new ideas among the old ones of different eras.

I enjoyed the film, but Bay has his hang ups. There's plenty of things it got right. Then scene when the Autobots descend in the 2007 film is one of the most magical moments in the entire movie. The music(the scores of both films are fantastic for that matter.), the energy, it was perfect.

The Forest Battle was one of the most amazing moments Prime has ever had. (easily blew his first death away, as it's a close second to Dinobot's in Beast wars.) You'll never stop at one...I'll take you all on! is just freaking epic. Peter Cullen just sold the raw emotion , like a father fighting protect his child and brought forth everything he had in one of the most glorious righteous indignations ever witness. When I think of all that, and look at your words...I say no, you don't get it. You're too busy hating everything to take anything remotely cool out of the experience.

I still think Bay could made a far more entertaining Superman movie than Bryan Singer did with Superman Returns. Superman would have at least punched something and wouldn't have been a stalker. I think we could have gotten alot worse than what Bay did. Which keep in mind, Hasbro has a hand in this project too. Both them and the sponsors can shoot down a certain amount of Bay's ideas.

Also he didn't write the movie.(which in his defense the writer strike happened.) Those two guys are off the project. Ultimately time will tell who input what. On top of that, since Transformers is more popular and profitable than it's ever been, when Bay has hung up his hat, someone else will likely reboot or start again.

Look at the bigger picture here. Like it or not Bay done transformers fans a great service, you could atleast be glad for that when things like War for Cybertron show up in the wake of that. Along with Animated(some of the best story telling since beast wars.), and next series Prime. More good than bad has come out of this. It's all a matter how you wanna to take things. As long as it remains profitable more and more stuff will continue to crop up.

Dude, I think that is the longest post I have ever seen.

Prime Riblet wrote:Dude, I thing that is the longest post I have ever seen.

I know, and I'm sorry. I have WMD strength rants sometimes. (looks over at the crater) Yeah a tad overkill you might say hehe.

Prime Riblet wrote:Dude, I thing that is the longest post I have ever seen.

Then you've never seen a debate between Rial Vestro and sto_vo_kor.

Burn wrote:

Prime Riblet wrote:Dude, I thing that is the longest post I have ever seen.

Then you've never seen a debate between Rial Vestro and sto_vo_kor.

Yes those two are legendary.

Lastjustice wrote:

Burn wrote:

Prime Riblet wrote:Dude, I thing that is the longest post I have ever seen.

Then you've never seen a debate between Rial Vestro and sto_vo_kor.

Yes those two are legendary.

I tend to stay far, far away when those two start debating! It's a lot safer that way. BTW Lastjustice, I agree that the live-action, Bay-directed movies have done a lot for the TF brand whether people want to like it(how Bay has presented the franchise) or not.

Lastjustice wrote:DTR69, oh are you just asking for me orbital bombardment your post. So much that I disagree with that you posted. In any case I'm going bring the rain.

(I'm guessing you're not a native English speaker, as the errors are consistent with someone who is. Not taking any potshots with this, and implying a lack of intelligence solely based off of style as I make tons of errors when I go full on rant mode, just stating your post had alot to point made some of what you said more difficult to decipher. If I wasn't sure where you were going with it I didn't quote it.)

We all know what G1 is. G1 by it's very nature is about realism. It's about true vehicles, BTs are G1, just because designers had restrictions doesn't mean if a toy is poseable and is titled Alternators then it's not G1.

You clearly have your nostalgia goggles on much to tight sir. G1 is the anti-realism. It follows the rule of cool first and foremost.( http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool ) Sure they used real vehicles for some characters, but there's more than enough examples where they didn't. So robots that turn into Dinosaurs (which none of their sizes were in scale) , Random futuristic/non-earth designed vehicles, monsters and other crazy things that don't really exist just screams realism. (just to try make sense of Skylynx lol.) G1 completely ignored scale regularly.(even stuff that was same alt mode, just read here http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Scale )

Like I said some characters like Ratchet couldn't even turn into their alt modes in the cartoon. There physically wasn't enough mass to form a van.(I know there's other offenders but he's first that comes to mind, him and Ironhide.) Other characters mass shifted between modes plenty, which they effectively couldn't turn into what they were for that reason.

Not say all transformers besides G1 were filled with realism, but the movie was only one come remotely close on the scale stuff. G1 was probably the worst offender of the bunch in that regard.

Why does having armor which sometimes can look blocky mean it won't look realistic?

Newer things are sleeker smoother, and smaller. G1 was conceived in the 80s, and blocker stuff was considered high tech(just look at the cybertronian forms, and future cars in movies around that time.), now days bigger and bulkier is considered lower tech. Original look was a product of it's time, and the newer ones are a product of this time.

Where does those forearm guards on Bumblebees arms come from, where have all the furnishings inside the car gone. There are parts on them that have come from no where. If you have a rounded form alternate mode then the robot mode will probably not be that blocky.

You seem to have failed to notice something the transformers in the new film showed they could do...change on the fly. This clearly demonstrated several times, as they can adjust and move around any parts with in their body. Between bumble bee and frenzy scanning new alt modes and immediately changing, Black out moving his tail helicopter blade to his hand for a weapon, Prime altering the size of his energy blades from swords to hooks, and Megatron altering his hand from a blade to a device to hold Sam down to examine him. They use their body as both tools and weapons in this series. They did in G1 as well, but was much more random how each transformer did it, and usually was a one shot deal. (such as prime energon axe, or Jazz's grappling hook hand.)

In the new film it's simply whatever existing parts can be applied in different ways and altered to an extent. You do see plenty of existing parts when they transform. It's likely whatever is inside just gets shifted all around. I mean they technically could erase all semblance of being a vehicle they transformed into if they wanted to. Likely just more effort on their part. They seem have operating limits they comfortably stay with in.

I just don't understand why some people would be so dead against a more G1 stylised movie, with more emphasis on robots and character development, and yes with more armored looking robots, with human like proportions.

Because they re alien technology, or rather autonomous robotic organisms from the planet Cybertron. They should look like something from another planet, not like something general motors made....except in alt mode hehe. People who were transformers fans were no the project, so don't think oh people who hated transformers made this. You think Bay knew to reference Kup's move against blitzwing with Jazz and Brawl on his own? No way, people who knew the material were on the job, if the G1 style would have flown in real life, we'd probably seen it. G1 wasn't based off what looks good in real life, was based off what looks cool in a cartoon...Period.

I'm not against G1, I'm against transformers looking terribly unrealistic in the movies. I accept each era as it's own entity. I don't ever expect any era be a carbon copy of G1 or anything else. You should do the same, as this happening for 25 years....where's this second coming of G1 you seem think happened for you to get the notion they're going to do it again?

Hasbro is like super villains, never repeat the same scheme twice heh. There isn't a single era that's the same. Why would they start now? Fanboy-girls crying loud enough? Geewuners are the minority...always have been or the 86 film wouldn't have horribly bombed. Which why Hasbro made little attempt to try revived it over and over. (see here http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Ruined_forever , you sound exactly like this article)

Some Transformers conservationists suggest a more extreme approach, that Transformers franchise should abandon all attempts at re-invention and instead cater exclusively to the old-school collectors. Though attractive, this approach may prove impractical as a long-term solution.

Comics tried to cater to old the long term fans, and they imploded because of it. If it wasn't for the films marvel still would be in the red. Wasn't till Spiderman Marvel was finally off life support.

Please don't say there aliens, cause all though they are, why do some of them like prime stay true to g1 proportions and the rest are monsters, wheres the consistency.

"Why do your ask questions you already know the answer to ,Charles?" Yes of course they re aliens, why should they be limited to G1...or being exactly like humans? You failed pay very close attention to new movies. I have a toy of Prime on my desk as I'm typing this. Movie prime does NOT HAVE his G1 proportions. He's built like my girlfriend,he's all legs. G1 one prime was not near as leggy. Go and take a long hard look at Prime again. Bumble bee much closer to leg to upper body proportions to each other. Prime is not.

There was no consistent design scheme as they got bots with wheels for feet, bots with no legs at all, each was quite unique, which was what I believe they were going for. (yet some people complain they all looked the same...)

Why, if just so it looks good. After all you have let these monstrosity happily let the world think that this is what we are fans of. I'm embarrassed to tell people now I like transformers.

Now you just sound silly. Why should you be a closet fan of anything? Transformers is more popular now than it's ever been. Why should you be embarrassed? You didn't make it, so Bay's work is no personal reflection on your being. Not like this is freaking KISS Players or Tentacle Hentai. I will openly admit I am a fan of anything I like, especially not something completely mainstream like Transformers. Saying you like transformers is like saying you like Video games or Star wars, more than enough other people share your interest, even if they don't so what?(the same jackasses who will mock you now probably would have 10 years ago.) If anything you might be able to get them to watch the parts you do like with you and have something to share.

I've been a fan since the beginning, I don't have to convince my niece and nephew why Optimus Prime is one of the greatest heroes of all time, they just know, they've seen him themselves. Our love for this crazy franchise has finally been validated to rest of the planet and you're crying about it? Reminds me of some wisdom I once heard, Why do hotdogs come in 8s and buns come in 12s? It doesn't matter , just be happy you have a hotdog. In this case a new series of transformers. There's enough dead things from my childhood, it's nice see the adventures continue. My inner 6 year old still loves watch giant robots beat the heck out of each other.

Everything you liked is still there. Not like a new generation of transformers caused the old to cease to exist. I've had versions of things I like come out wrong. (contra has had several bad games over the years.) I just don't buy the parts I don't like, I ignore it.

Poor sonic fans have been drug through the mud for last 10 years. Sonic 4 is finally coming out, they might actually get a decent game. They have far worse to be sad about than Transformers fans ever will. If something is good it will manage rise to the top, and parts that suck will be forgotten.

Of course G1 ain't perfect, but the elements that were dropped were the ones needed to make Michael bay movie good. If you hate G1 so much why do you bother with Transformers at all. Movies are full of bright and wonderful characters from peoples imaginations.

I don't hate G1. I do however dislike the 86 film, which put a damper on most of the following season and characters for me. Some grew on me , some I still wish to melt down. Some people love it, but I find it to be a fairly weak story, and the whole lets murder tons of characters and retcon a bunch of crap never sat well with me. Even as a kid I'm like Why the heck does Matrix of Leadership kill Unicron....it just does. (my nephew ironically asked me same thing when he saw it.) Just look here for more details about all that. (viewtopic.php?f=27&t=49426)

Whether someone likes G1 or not does not make them more or less a transformers fan. Like saying if someone doesn't like Legend of Zelda on nintendo they re not a true gamer. May be it didn't speak to them initially, may be it just didn't age well, or just wasn't for them.

I've seen fans who didn't grow up during the 80s and go what the heck did you people ever see in any of the cartoons you guys watched. Yet they liked the stuff that followed up later, like Robots in disguise, and the Unicron Trilogy. That's what they grew up with. I ignored those shows for majority, as they weren't for me. It wasn't till the new films did I find something I liked since Beast wars transformers related.

SEE HOW THE TOYS OF THE MOVIE ARE VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE FILM

STOP USING THE CAPS LOCK BUTTON OR I WILL COME TO YOU HOUSE WITH A SCREWDRIVER AND REMOVE IT.(or think it really hard.) You have lost your caps lock license has been revoked, please use your shift key sparingly.

If bumblebee can just scan a car and morph to it in a second why do they need to transform mechanically anyway?

He can reformat on the fly, but he still has be something of similar size and mass to his own body. Plus there's the whole disguise aspect of it all. What would be the point of repeatedly reformatting if ultimately his robot mode wouldn't change much for it? It has a disguise that worked, and ran with it. He only changed it because if he was the 2008 Camaro from the beginning Sam could have never plausibly bought him for 4000 dollars. He needed be something cheap enough(why the 76 Camaro), but Bee still has his ego, and he had established his contact with Sam, was free to spice himself up then.

It might just be a Geek Vs just a Transformer Fan thing I don't know.

I am both a geek and transformers fan, has nothing to do with either of those things. Has more to do with you're in love with G1, and can't get over it or even be honest with yourself that you are.

know one thing it's definently A Japanese style Vs American style which has to go over the top. Lets face it the Japanese have got style that the western world are in awe of. American cars are bold and brash when Japanese cars and european cars, look so much better.

I prescribe to Sturgeons Law with America, Japan or any other part of the world....90% of everything is crap! I take what's good and useful then forget the rest. (it's a good policy with life in general, as Bruce Lee suggested the same for Martial arts when he developed his style.) Plenty of people around the world like both flavors just fine. Stop being such a fanboy for everything you like and try take a more balanced view. You seem think everything you love is only way do anything.

It's to do with the people in charge. I bet everyone of you, even the people who disagree with me, could do a better job than Michael Bay.

Yes you've established you, and Sexfighter both hate all that is Bay. The Baytred is strong with this one. Besides from that; Can you suggest anything constructive to the movies besides reverting it to a love letter to G1?(look what making a love letter to an older brand did for superman as Singer did that toward the Donner films.) How about picking ideas from other stuff, like I'd love see Silverbolt take personality traits from Beast Wars in the third film. I think there's plenty of room for new ideas among the old ones of different eras.

I enjoyed the film, but Bay has his hang ups. There's plenty of things it got right. Then scene when the Autobots descend in the 2007 film is one of the most magical moments in the entire movie. The music(the scores of both films are fantastic for that matter.), the energy, it was perfect.

The Forest Battle was one of the most amazing moments Prime has ever had. (easily blew his first death away, as it's a close second to Dinobot's in Beast wars.) You'll never stop at one...I'll take you all on! is just freaking epic. Peter Cullen just sold the raw emotion , like a father fighting protect his child and brought forth everything he had in one of the most glorious righteous indignations ever witness. When I think of all that, and look at your words...I say no, you don't get it. You're too busy hating everything to take anything remotely cool out of the experience.

I still think Bay could made a far more entertaining Superman movie than Bryan Singer did with Superman Returns. Superman would have at least punched something and wouldn't have been a stalker. I think we could have gotten alot worse than what Bay did. Which keep in mind, Hasbro has a hand in this project too. Both them and the sponsors can shoot down a certain amount of Bay's ideas.

Also he didn't write the movie.(which in his defense the writer strike happened.) Those two guys are off the project. Ultimately time will tell who input what. On top of that, since Transformers is more popular and profitable than it's ever been, when Bay has hung up his hat, someone else will likely reboot or start again.

Look at the bigger picture here. Like it or not Bay done transformers fans a great service, you could atleast be glad for that when things like War for Cybertron show up in the wake of that. Along with Animated(some of the best story telling since beast wars.), and next series Prime. More good than bad has come out of this. It's all a matter how you wanna to take things. As long as it remains profitable more and more stuff will continue to crop up.

You are totaly missing the point, I agree that there is plenty of wrong in G1, you don't have to point that out to me. And as you said newer things are sleeker smaller etc. I too would expect a revamped G1 to incorporate that. But newer things are also simpler and Michaels BAy Bots are over complicated to say the least. the toys prove that you don't need so many moves to get from one to the other. Obviously the real thing would incorporate a few more twists and turns as the toys had restrictions. And I'd expect to see robot parts in alt mode, after all in the movie they seem to use alot of holigrams to cover things up, and why do they need to transform if they can scan and morph in seconds. You have skipped over or ignored alot of what I have said, and their are points I agree with that you continue to pick up. At the end of the day anything is possible, it's just a matter of taste. I don't feel michael bay has done any good, as I hate it all, I hate the influenc he has had on normal transformers designs, except I like the fact that faces should be mechanical. But the look I hate. I hate armada but the game on the PS2 was amazing. I'm just hoping war for cybertron will bring an increase to older nythology. I can't be bothered, anymore you think what you want to and I'll think what I want to. I really didn't want to bring up an old argument. It's purely to say things are remade, even if the have been already made before. Another time line shown different enough could easily be around the corner, especialy if shown in different format like full cgi, I heard Japan was working on one anyway, probaly a rumour but so what. The whole reason I love transformers is for the look, and I just feel it could be so much more. end of.............

No offense but...did you really have to quote the whole thing?
As far as I can see there is still a main problem with this.

I'm just hoping war for cybertron will bring an increase to older nythology.

This...you continue to speak of the older mythology..the thing is that TransFormers in general is made for KIDS who will have no idea what any of this G1 mythology is. Nowadays a lot of people learn about it through the movies(like me). Even with War for Cybertron they will have no idea this old mythology even exists.

I'll try keep this reply shorter and more concise. (I may not succeed hehe.)

BTW Lastjustice, I agree that the live-action, Bay-directed movies have done a lot for the TF brand whether people want to like it(how Bay has presented the franchise) or not.

Yeah I say don't look a gift horse in the mouth. In bay's case it will probably have explosives in it hehe.

You are totally missing the point

No I think I am along with everyone else is getting the point crystal clear. Pretty please make G1 2.0. That's pretty much it. Everything else is fairly superfluous to that point or incoherent.

don't feel Michael bay has done any good, as I hate it all, I hate the influence he has had on normal transformers designs,

Hey has Michael Bay personally invaded your house,and redone your collection of DVDs to look like the new movies? If so they're probably worth money hehe.Otherwise What in the pit are you talking about influence on normal transformers...the only thing Michael Bay is responsible for is the Movieverse.All the existing stuff before hand has nothing to do with him.

Your nerdrage has overloaded your logic circuits. Animated came out afterwards, and looks nothing like the movie. War for Cybertron looks like G1. IDW might lifted the movie styling for some of it's artwork making some odd hybrid, but I doubt that will last. Transformers Prime might resemble the movie designs, but they'll likely be simplified.

Most these projects would not being happening if the new movies didn't. I personally wouldn't want to live in a reality where these movies didn't happen, as who knows if and when anything major transformers related would have came along then. The aftershocks of this are going go on for years. If you can't seem grasp that then I can't feel sorry for you being upset. You've opt to singlehandledly rob yourself of any positives to this whole experience.

I know plenty of people who didn't like the movies that much online besides you. This one guy on the city of heroes forums Tenzhi always bashes the designs as Shambling mounds of tin foil rushing at each other. He still has enough sense realize the movie has had a boon for the franchise and is excited about the new game.

No matter what I always find something I like among every version I actually go and watch. (which helps me forgive parts I absolutely hate.) Even with series like RiD and the Unicron trilogy I barely watched, I saw some interesting things as I browsed it and thought hey that was actually good. Such as Armada Starscream finally made him a effective fighter. I liked Both Jet-optimus, and Omega Prime combiners. RiD Skybite was interesting, and Scourge was infinitely cooler than G1 Scourge. I made the choice to go and look beyond initial impressions though.

I'm just hoping war for cybertron will bring an increase to older mythology.

What exactly is really worth revisiting in G1 mythology that hasn't been reinvented over the years..better? Which sometimes there's a such thing as too much Continuity. After X number of years people have worry about contradicting entirely too many previous stories. It;s nice to just cut the cord and start fresh after a point. (look at all times comics reboot and retcon stuff away.)

Take Unicron, the movie crowbarred him into existence, the Unicron trilogy took and made him such a big deal, all 3 series were about dealing with him.

Beast wars/machines refined the transformers mythos so much. G1 slapped a bunch of ideas loosely together, BW era smoothed them out into something much more coherent and consistent.

Most of the truly good ideas and concepts about transformers have remained constant once they were introduced. (such as Sparks, stasis lock, the transformer gods and the 13 as transformers is a multiverse.)

What exactly has been such a horribly missed opprotunity besides simply different designs? If you watched Animated, they referenced sooo much from G1 and other eras. Which why not include all best elements of everything you can. (It's what I'm trying do with the story I'm working on myself.) Limiting to solely the earliest ideas or any one batch of ideas is the path to stagnation.

The whole reason I love transformers is for the look

Then your reasons for being a fan is rather shallow. If you can't find deeper reasons for being a fan, may this isn't the franchise for you. Like anything in like, looks come in good as beauty is only skin deep. Things of substance are much more fulfilling.

I didn't like the character designs for Castlevania Judgment initially. (I'm still not character about them.) But the characterization and the sound track is great. I found myself playing through for bigger reasons besides aesthics.

This...you continue to speak of the older mythology..the thing is that Transformers in general is made for KIDS who will have no idea what any of this G1 mythology is. Nowadays a lot of people learn about it through the movies(like me). Even with War for Cybertron they will have no idea this old mythology even exists.

This one of the reasons I was glad for animated. It gave kids this own new series to watch. It didn't need be this adult serious cartoon all the time, it was more kid friendly which it gave transformers back to people who deserve it most...the kids. I remember watching it initially and thinking oh I wish this were a bit more serious, but then I remember who's the target audience.

War For Cybertron will be it's own Continuity. Sure it will be a remaking of G1, but it's not going be a carbon copy of it. It's going retell the story of the Decepticons uprising, and how Optimus Prime became a hero in their darkest moments. Core elements that exist in many of the series. it will get to keep it fresh and not be bogged down with trying be G1 version 2.0.

Like retellings of G1 don't bother reusing the origins of all the combiner teams. They just exist from the introduction. Was Key to Vector Sigma a cool episode, sure but War for Cybertron doesn't need to retell it just so I can play as my favorite characters. Stuff gets streamlined in retellings. (sure sometimes elements get botched, but usually theres more progressions in story telling than steps back.)

Honestly why should someone have to have watched all of G1 to enjoy a brand new game? That's honestly one of my biggest problems with the 86 film, anyone who's never followed the series is completely lost. People just start dying, and they re not sure who they were, and if they should care or not. It requires too much prior knowledge to get the full effect(some comic books are like that, it's impossible to jump in at any random issue without being totally lost. Xmen usually really bad about that, as they have subplots going back for last 40 years.), making it rather niche audience. Every experience should be able to stand alone as well as be enjoyed as part of a series.

Lastjustice wrote:

The whole reason I love transformers is for the look

Then your reasons for being a fan is rather shallow. If you can't find deeper reasons for being a fan, may this isn't the franchise for you. Like anything in like, looks come in good as beauty is only skin deep. Things of substance are much more fulfilling.

Easy there. Not your place to be telling a person what they should and shouldn't be a fan of and why.

It was said I should be thankful for the movie becuase of what has spawned after. I reply I hate what he has done therefor I am not thankful, then you reply what has he done, has he raided your dvd collection, more or less ruined transformers before the movie came about. Of course not, I never said that, I said I hate the influence he has had on everything since, I even pointed out that there was a few things I did agree on such as the mechanical faces. Even sstill I thought some of the styling was a bit iffy before Michael Bay came about, but he took it to another level.

Secondly, I wouldn't want anyone to have to watch the G1 series, becuase it's rubbish, But if you take a handful of episodes, the ones that actualy tell a story, and bar all the ones which are the same old, decepticons finding a power source, or crystal, or some device to rule the universe only to be defeated by the autobots, then that and the comics could be something really woth exploring on a bigger level. At the end of the day The live action movie isn't that far off, they have even taken g1 specific things like the fallen. The thing is, the second movie was one of the G1 episodes that don't move the story on, it's another fight for power only to be thwarted by the Autobots. There was a chance to tell so much history, but it was waisted on the whitwickys flirting with eachother. Do people who know nothing of transformers really get the feel for Starscreams character from those few lines. We know the character so from them lines we can tell he is the same character, but thats becuase we know the back story. Jazz has that cheesy one liner to some up his character, but thats it. Yes they did show some back story but was it enough, it was almost like it they forgot not everyone knows about transformers, even I was left guessing.
Has anything really changed since the first movie, ie the relationship between the humans and transformers, maybe it will be more than a trilogy I don't know. Yes I know there has been some progression, but I thought it would have been alot more, and I thought there would be more character sub plots, for al the weakness of G1 it really did handle the things the movie was supposed to excel in alot better.

In away the Live action movie was G1, compared to armada etc the storyline isn't that far you could say it's an updated version. But the thing that I feel makes it vastly different and stand on it's own is the fact that it has no confidence in the things that makes transformers so great and they have contradicted themselves on all the things about G1 which they decided to leave out.. 1: Mass shifting [I'm not fussed either way] was left behind for obvious reasons, but then they have a massive cube which mass shifts in a way that takes the p*ss. 2: They have made the bots alien like, with insect like features and animal like joints, as why would they be like humans with 10 fingers and 10 toes, 2 eyes and a nose etc, but then prime is more or less a human proportioned bot. 3: The worry about having loads of robots and no human perspective, was totaly unbalanced, as exploring the bits characters would help the public relate to them more, when jazz dies, you don't even care, when prime dies in the cartoon, you care. 4: The fact they can transform is totaly over shadowed by the fact they can magicaly change form by scanning and morphing, transforming can't have the wow factor anymore. If they changed something for a reason then they should of remembered why and acted uponit. And if they thought it was worth bringing to the screen why do I feel they almost tried to hide what was good about TFs by not giving great characters lines, and not letting us see them transform, there's one scene when bumblebee transforms and his arms come out from underneath the front of the car, and you get a real sense of him transforming, but apart from that it's just bits and pieces flying about. It's a shame they spent all that money and you can't even see what's going on. I've seen the design drawing for jetfire prime and he looks really good for a movie bot, almost gundam like I'm pretty sure the face is changed too, alot of effort must of been put in, but what do we see of it in the film, for a start the sun is blinding us, then he flies off.
I'm looking at JetfirePrime now, and to me that is what they should all look like, he's armoured up and his face looks kool, now thats a slick style, thats what G1 is about, looking kool lol. Most G1 characters when drawn in comics with no limitations look good, you can't do that with armada characters etc.



What do I mean by G1 mythology, I mean simple things like relationships between characters like starscream and megatron. I can't say a storyline as such becuase there is no real story set in stone, as the comics and cartoons differ. But we all know what it is, and yes it is different in certain ways for all of us, but we all know what a G1 bot looks like, and what a G1 story is, even when they are taken to extreme levels like G1 ongoing in IDW [How is G1 dead by the way, energon is dead, beats wars is dead, but G1 will carry on until we all die, till all are one lol.].


So if looks aren't a big reason for being a fan, am I right in saying ou have a large go-bot collection? They are similar to transformers, and have a story and characters. They look rubbish, so I stay away. Gundam look good so I collect them. The beauty of Transformers, another thing which the movie bots failed on, is the fact there alt modes give there robot modes there unique look. Movie prime has some wheels hanging off him, but thats it apart from some windows, but that could be anything. I love the fact that the design and look isn't preconceived, and that the look of the robot comes from the transformation process. AN alt mode is conceived and then a method of getting from one to the other dictates what the robot will look like, so new looks are created all the time, look at how doors give a winged profile, the seekers have them vents up high on there shoulders, no one would design a bot with that profile, so all these unique looks come about, it's all about form following function, so how is that shallow. If have a big interest in design, being a designer myself, but even before then. After all they are for display, and if they don't look good whats the point.

Easy there. Not your place to be telling a person what they should and shouldn't be a fan of and why.

Fair enough, but last I knew I didn't have a gun to his head telling him anything. Merely stating hey, looks only go so far and perhaps you might desire find other reasons to follow something. I can suggest all I want without trampling his rights as a fan, as he can still opt to ignore me as he has. The reasons we start something doesn't have be the reasons we finish something. That's all I'm getting at even if I came across forcefully.

My initial reasons for liking several characters (Starscream, Jetfire, the aerial bots) as a kid was because they turned into Jets. Completely shallow reasoning(Which I dont see this as harsh if I'm more than willing tear apart my own train of thought all the same.), but I love jets and stuff that flies (likely why I ended up in the air force heh.). I ultimately found more to them beyond their alt modes to like. if Starscream's alt mode were a some sort of animal I could still like him. Which happened during beast wars hehe. Terrasaur was basically their screamer, and even in waspinator's body he was still great for his cameo.

Simple reasoning is often the initial lure for many great things. It makes it easy for fans to leap right in and attach to. But the at some point we find other reasons to continuing otherwise usually turns into a rather unfulfilling experience later. Like dating someone hot, might been your initial reasoning, but if that's only reason you've been with them for 25 years, you might regret it later hehe. (which seems be his case with transformers.) To me giant transforming robots beating heck out of each other is timeless hehe.

1: Mass shifting [I'm not fussed either way] was left behind for obvious reasons, but then they have a massive cube which mass shifts in a way

It was a cosmic cube that made planets, being able to change size seems like something with in it's abilities, given it's made of pure energy. It's powers were not the powers of the transformers themselves, I see this as no blow against the movie.

They had to have a reason the humans couldn't move it prior to the autobots arrival. Otherwise hiding it would been entirely too easy. Not to mention would been much harder for humans to ever found in the first place. There's no way we would have missed something as big as it initially was. (plus it gave them a reason to wind up at the hoover dam again.)

They have made the bots alien like, with insect like features and animal like joints, as why would they be like humans with 10 fingers and 10 toes, 2 eyes and a nose etc, but then prime is more or less a human proportioned bot

I don't recall a single transformer having toes. Let alone five of them. Some characters had a fewer than 5 fingers.(such as blackout only had 3 on each hand.) Sure they were human-like in appearance, I think fans would have lynched someone if all the autobots turned into dogs and the decepticons looked like cats(Decepticats attack!) to go different as possible for sake of change nothing more. They updated the look and took certain liberties along the way, but it gave them all a fairly unique appearance. Jazz and prime were both the closest to their G1 looks Enough changes be their own entities.

I wasn't sure who Ironhide was till he announced he was Ironhide since it was a big enough change in appearance from G1.(was like file not found when I first looked at him.) It totally worked for me though as he was still a badass and got his personality right. I also like his new voice actor better than Peter Cullen voicing him. (He can stick to Prime, it's truly his best.)

3: The worry about having loads of robots and no human perspective, was totally unbalanced, as exploring the bits characters would help the public relate to them more, when jazz dies, you don't even care, when prime dies in the cartoon, you care.

Having no humans in the story would been pointless for it to be a live action movie. They might as well been a CGI movie like the newer TMNT (ninja turtles) movie was then. I honestly feel having humans take a greater role in the movie added alot more realism to the story. You can have a robot civil war on our front lawn and expect humans just to ignore it the way G1 did.

It took alot of the nerdy centric hard edges off the story too as anyone can relate most the things going on in the movies. Things like your first car, trying go on a date with the person on of your league. Stuff we all go through at some point before tossing into a series of elements that are completely alien to the public. it wasn't just transformers, it was what if transformers appeared in the real world, and showed how that would play out.

The initial bot to human ratio was too much to humans, but it was much more acceptable in ROTF. We got entire scenes with Megatron and Starscream establishing their old relationship and what not.Not to mention it's a heck of alot cheaper to show cars and humans than CGI robots. The first movie in particular had a very narrow budget. If they knew it was going be as successful they would been willing spend more, but they had use them sparingly in their first outing. They do as much as they could in the quickest time they could when the bots were on screen.(why starscream was blowing up stuff the whole time, like he knew he was only going be in the movie for 10 mins hehe.) The last time Transformers was in theaters it horribly bombed. People were taking a risk doing it again, especially in an unproven format.

I know my first response when I heard was oh they're going butcher it. I was envisioning G1 style bots in real life and just shaking my head at the idea. Soon as I saw the first trailer where Prime rolled up and made the sound...I never ate my words harder in my life. I had to go see it regardless if was good or bad at that point. I loved it and was blown away.

As for people not caring about Jazz's death. Jazz had more screen time before his death than Prime did in the 86 film did. I fail see why anyone without transformers knowledge would give a crap about Prime since he wasn't even built up any connections to audience outside of he's a good guy.(or any of the other they promptly mowed down.) If you never watched transformers prior, you atleast knew who heck Jazz was before he died. You couldn't even name who died or what they into turned into the 86 film before they got scrapped. The new movies were a much better stand alone experience, but they were designed to be. If you have prior knowledge it helped as the characters tend be extremely similar to their original personalities. (the initial 5 autobots were carbon copies for most part to their G1 personalities.)

Prime death in Revenge of the fallen likely carried alot more weight to non-fans since they had two movies to see him and understand his importance. I know it meant alot more to me than the first time, I wasn't just angry about it, that it had a point.

Death is like seasoning, you add alittle it can enhance the flavor of things, you add too much it's only thing people taste. Which was case with the 86 film, it had entirely too much for me feel anything but angry by that point.(I think if I was an adult watching it I'd walked out of it..especially with all crying kids.) Xmen 3 was same way, too high of a body count, which left fans irked. Unless it's a horror movie, massive body counts , especially shock kills don't tend go over well. Death needs be every bit as meaningful as the character was in life. (or as a rule, bad guys need atleast last as half as long as their monologues heh.)

The fact they can transform is totally over shadowed by the fact they can magically change form by scanning and morphing, transforming can't have the wow factor anymore.

I'm not sure what heck you're talking about here at point 4. I can totally follow the transformations when they happen. Which after watching the movie, I can stare at any random car on the street, and picture in my mind how it might be if it were a transformer. (I sometimes find myself doing it when I see a cool car at work haha. Particularly this one mustang a girl driving around says Autobot edition on it.) Which if you played the Revenge of the fallen game, it directly follows same transformation schemes. (such as Sideswipe spins as he does it.)

Yes they can scan stuff, but that didn't change their robot modes. If Mudflap had scanned a Ford Festiva instead of a the Chevy Trax, he still needed to transform mechanically to become a robot to fight. Scanning did not remove that element, and wasn't used that frequently as most characters only copied a vehicle or object once and stuck with it.

I'm not sure what's the outrage, as G1 had them scan objects and get reformatted into it(and just about every other show.), they just made this camoflage process a self contained one instead of something they needed an outside source to do of teletran 1. It made sense then for them to do it then in the context they were trying to move around without being noticed. (unlike Gobots and TF:Armada, who just oddly look like earth vehicles even on their home planets.Was a big WTF for Armada, like you people should know better than this when i saw it.)

What do I mean by G1 mythology, I mean simple things like relationships between characters like starscream and megatron

It was hinted at in the first film in a single line. It was shown in it's full glory in RotF. They seemed to pick right up where G1 left off as Megatron smacks him around for betraying him. It was pretty much crystal clear to people who barely followed the show like my mom or my sister where their situation stood when they watched the new movies.

'm looking at Jet-optimus now, and to me that is what they should all look like, he's armored up and his face looks Cool, now thats a slick style, that's what G1 is about,

He also can't transform into anything. Which is exactly where problem lies, you seem think characters should look a certain way regardless of realism. They need be able to transform between modes and still look like they transform into what they were. Jet-optimus has dozens of parts from another bot, so he wasn't keep it for looks on top of would simply forced Megatron and other Decepticons to Power creep next movie to compete with his new form.

Prime face plate is there normally. Jazz, prime and bumble bee all has armor coverings over their faces when they go into battle mode. Not being war machines it makes sense for them to not always be in that setting. Prime has had lips in other shows. (and even a book I had as a kid from g1 heh.) They modeled his facial expressions after Peter Cullen's when he spoke, so helped show emotions. He still had his faceplate when he went to fight so it worked for me.

So if looks aren't a big reason for being a fan, am I right in saying you have a large go-bot collection?

I did own my share of Gobots and transformers. I probably had more Gobots actually. I had some generic K mart knock offs of them too. I was a kid, I didn't care was toys, and my family was poor, and I had 4 other siblings. My dad was laid off around that time, I was just happy have anything and food.

Gobots were honestly better toys than similar sized transformers. They had far more articulation than a mini-vehicle transformer toy did.

I watched both shows, which I liked some aspects of both. I feel their biggest failings were having Cy-kill whom was very nonthreatening bad guy, and too many really lame names collectively. Here's my breakdown of that subject (viewtopic.php?f=14&t=55932 )

Lastjustice wrote:

don't agree. IDW, Dreamwave, these may be reboots of a sort, but they are, without a doubt, GENERATION 1. While IDW pumps out a G1 comic, then it lives. I suppose thats how you see it and thats fair play but i see it another way, its all down to the individual. No ones winning this one.

No it's called a dictionary. But that flawed logic Sexfighter, you could say sky is red, and try redefine what the color red is, but if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, quacks like a duck.....it's remake. There is no opinion to this, I have you dead to rights in this debate. Emotional responses aren't facts about a subject.

You admitted it's a reboot in your own post. There no such thing as sorta a reboot, it is or isn't. You're mincing words trying find a leg to stand on. it's not working, especially if you confirm what I'm saying in your own post.

Is it a direct continuation of G1 either comics or the cartoon...no.(it's not even continued off of Dreamwave.) Then how is not by definition a remake/reboot? I don't usually try play lawyer ball and beat people down with technicalities, but this is an absolutely clear thing here. People are trying extend a concept beyond it's true meaning to justify their point.

I can't make my point any more clear without continuing repeat myself over and over. I don't think I've used word continuity on this site collectively than I have in this single thread. G1 one is as dead as disco.

My kids were at a disco last night...DISCO LIVES HA HA. I think i was banned for a bit, but im back, calmer...and hopefully wiser mr justice. Was the 'dictionary' jab really necessary? Bit bait worthy that me thinks. Reboot... Marvel rebooted Hulk..hes still green with big muscles and a bad temper. I wasnt sure if Iron Mans armour would look that great on screen but there it is, its a beauty. Bayformers took a hell of a lot of liberties with the design concept, PARTICULARLY the decepticons. That sure as hell aint Megatron on the screen, he looks and moves great, but did they have to save that design for the baddest bad ass... this is Transformers and people who were there from the start long for a look more faithful to the original conception.
G1 being dead is only your opinion, you can put up as many 'facts' as you like, but at the end of the day, they are merely your own interpretation of the franchise today. The continuitys may change, but for instance, Dreamwaves run was G1, thats how i see it, and i wont change my opinion just because they dont reference the 80s stories directly. Look at Pat Lees art, how can I sit there and believe that its NOT G1. If it looks like a duck etc...
Its just how i see it, i wouldn't walk in a church and tell everyone 'GO HOME..JESUS IS DEAD'. Not that im patronising religion here, its just how i feel when i catch a glimpse of say,War for Cybertron. i won't be boxed into a corner by bible length rants, amusing as they are and you make a lot of good points. If War for Cybertron tells the story of the cybertronian war, and with those designs, i see that as proof G1's influence lives on and that those old designs can be UPDATED, not REPLACED, and can be adapted to work in the 21st century. G1 may be the equivilant of Starsreams ghost these days, but at least its LINGERING, its immortal...