The Energon Pub

we need a multi-quite function here. but since there isn't one (or it isn't obvious) let me answer some points raised in various posts before this one:

Movie threads only have haters who don't post elsewhere...Except I'm no huge fan of the films, and do post elsewhere. I'd say the majority of my posts are in the toys forum, or sub-forums of it. I actually try to steer a little clear of this part of the board because the lack of reason or intelligent discussion is worrying and infuriating.

It doesn't put me up nor down personally whether anyone liked or disliked the first Bayformers film, or ROTF, or both. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion even if it's wrong.

This topic is not a joke? Well colour me confused. Well then, I'm not sure if that just makes it funnier.

craggy wrote:we need a multi-quite function here. but since there isn't one (or it isn't obvious) let me answer some points raised in various posts before this one:

If you scroll down, you'll see you can review the last (I think it's 10) few posts and they have the quote button next to them. Closest it gets to multi-quote.

Movie threads only have haters who don't post elsewhere

Not sure if that's in response to what I said, but if it is, you've taken it the wrong way.

I said there are SOME "haters" like that. Not all.

Burn wrote:

Movie threads only have haters who don't post elsewhere

Not sure if that's in response to what I said, but if it is, you've taken it the wrong way.

I said there are SOME "haters" like that. Not all.

yeah it was. Sorry for not picking it up. I suppose there are a lot of folks who probably come here specifically to discuss the films. There's probably a similar percentage who just post here to talk about how they like them, right?

craggy wrote:I suppose there are a lot of folks who probably come here specifically to discuss the films. There's probably a similar percentage who just post here to talk about how they like them, right?

That's a good question, and now that I think about it, I honestly haven't paid any attention. I guess the "haters" just stand out more for me.

And yes, that is quite short sighted of me!

At first, I wasn't very excited about DOTM. I liked the first one. It definitely wasn't anything you think about, like Inception, but was pretty fun to watch. I don't hate ROTF, but I don't like it. Although I was not horribly offended by the Twins, I did find them more offensive than I had expected to (I had always thought that they would be making fun of white people trying to act black, but they didn't seem that way when I actually saw the movie). I didn't like some of the action, either, since it was so hard to see what was happening at times. There should have also been more story. Then, of course, there was all the crude humor.

I'm somewhat excited about DOTM after reading the review on Ain't It Cool News, and seeing the trailers for it. I'm not expecting it to be something truly "good," but I'm thinking it'll be entertaining. All I'm worried about are the Wreckers. I won't necessarily mind if they're like rednecks as long as it's done so that they're not offensive or annoying, which is what I'm worried will happen.

SlyTF1 wrote:ust how is the plot more solid? Decepticons come to earth and blow sh!t up. It was the same with ROTF, only ROTF used actual alien theories to back up the existence of the Transformers on earth.

Well, ROTF suffered from the Writer's Strike in the worst way. Forgotten characters, huge plotholes, etc. DOTM already has THAT over it.

Also, what ACTUAL alien theories?

SlyTF1 wrote:Besides, why should I care about the plot? I'm not worried about the plot at all. Like I've said before: if you want story, you can take yo' ass to the book store.

Again, not saying you're stupid for liking ROTF. But if I was, you just made my argument for me.

SlyTF1 wrote:That's a bunch of BS. Its opinion that ROTF is a weak link. Damn critics who represent the rest of society plant these images of what a "good" movie is supposed to be. And everyone blindly follows. Like sheep. They don't think for themselves, and all they see is what society says is right in front of them. These critics, they don't know a damn thing. All they do is read the definition of a "good" movie and judge movies on that definition.

So you're saying the only reason people don't like ROTF is becuase they're "sheep" who just believe everything critcs say? Um...

Starscream GaGa wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:ust how is the plot more solid? Decepticons come to earth and blow sh!t up. It was the same with ROTF, only ROTF used actual alien theories to back up the existence of the Transformers on earth.

Well, ROTF suffered from the Writer's Strike in the worst way. Forgotten characters, huge plotholes, etc. DOTM already has THAT over it.

I've been asking the same question for years, and no one has given me a single logical answer yet: What plot holes?

Plus the only missing character was Wheelie, who only disappeared for the last battle.

SlyTF1 wrote:I've been asking the same question for years, and no one has given me a single logical answer yet: What plot holes?

Plus the only missing character was Wheelie, who only disappeared for the last battle.

The missing character would, of course, be Jolt. But yes, Wheelie too.

Plot-holes? Let's just look at the AllSpark's involvement.

In the first movie, Megatron was killed by having the Allspark shoved into his chest. After dying Prime pulled the last shard out of his corpse where it was presumably given to NEST. Ravage steals said shared and then brings Megatron back to life by DOING THE EXACT SAME THING THAT KILLED HIM IN THE LAST MOVIE.

Later, Optimus is killed by Megatron and must be brought back to life. The humans have an Allspark shard, which we now know, regardless of contradictions, can bring Optimus back to life, but instead the use the shard to bring back another Transformer to ask him about the harvester that they need Optimus to destroy. SO WHY THE HELL DIDN'T THEY SKIP JETFIRE AND JUST BRING BACK OPTIMUS?

That's just flat out shoddy writing and a glaring plot hole.

Starscream GaGa wrote:In the first movie, Megatron was killed by having the Allspark shoved into his chest. After dying Prime pulled the last shard out of his corpse where it was presumably given to NEST. Ravage steals said shared and then brings Megatron back to life by DOING THE EXACT SAME THING THAT KILLED HIM IN THE LAST MOVIE.

It makes sense to me (and mostly everyone else) that the Allspark kills, but also revives. There is life and death within it. It's pretty obvious that the Allpark can kill you while you're alive and bring you back after you're dead.

Later, Optimus is killed by Megatron and must be brought back to life. The humans have an Allspark shard, which we now know, regardless of contradictions, can bring Optimus back to life, but instead the use the shard to bring back another Transformer to ask him about the harvester that they need Optimus to destroy. SO WHY THE HELL DIDN'T THEY SKIP JETFIRE AND JUST BRING BACK OPTIMUS?

That's just flat out shoddy writing and a glaring plot hole.

The humans didn't know that the Allspark could bring him back to life. Plus they where miles away from Optimus in the first place. They needed answers to find out what the symbols meant, so they trusted the only Cybertronian that knew the history of the symbols, who also happened to be a Decepticon. Wheelie explained to them that the Seekers may know what they mean. Keep in mind, Wheelie is their only source of information. That, and they didn't know about the sun harvester (neither did Optimus) but Jetfire did. So it makes sense to bring back the one who knows something than risking your life even further than necessary to resurrect someone; who you have no clue can defeat the enemy, and they also have no clue what they're up against. And they didn't know that Optimus could read the symbols either.

SlyTF1 wrote:It makes sense to me (and mostly everyone else) that the Allspark kills, but also revives. There is life and death within it. It's pretty obvious that the Allpark can kill you while you're alive and bring you back after you're dead.

That's not really at an excuse at all.

SlyTF1 wrote:The humans didn't know that the Allspark could bring him back to life. Plus they where miles away from Optimus in the first place. They needed answers to find out what the symbols meant, so they trusted the only Cybertronian that knew the history of the symbols, who also happened to be a Decepticon. Wheelie explained to them that the Seekers may know what they mean. Keep in mind, Wheelie is their only source of information. That, and they didn't know about the sun harvester (neither did Optimus) but Jetfire did. So it makes sense to bring back the one who knows something than risking your life even further than necessary to resurrect someone; who you have no clue can defeat the enemy, and they also have no clue what they're up against.

They weren't miles away from Optimus at the time. They were with the other Autobots who presumably knew they could bring him back to life (or perhaps they weren't aware the movie didn't use logic?) and if they had brought back Optimus straight away they wouldn't need to Matrix ala, wouldn't need to go to Egypt, ala the Decepticons wouldn't have been able to activate the Harvester.

Or, you could say "They didn't know they needed Optimus when they were with his corpse." Well that's just cold. If were having enough suspension of disbelief to let this Allspark-ressurection crap we should have to assume bringing back their friend and leader would be the first thing they would do.

Starscream GaGa wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:I've been asking the same question for years, and no one has given me a single logical answer yet: What plot holes?

Plus the only missing character was Wheelie, who only disappeared for the last battle.

The missing character would, of course, be Jolt.

Plot-holes? Let's just look at the AllSpark's involvement.

In the first movie, Megatron was killed by having the Allspark shoved into his chest. After dying Prime pulled the last shard out of his corpse where it was presumably given to NEST. Ravage steals said shared and then brings Megatron back to life by DOING THE EXACT SAME THING THAT KILLED HIM IN THE LAST MOVIE.

Later, Optimus is killed by Megatron and must be brought back to life. The humans have an Allspark shard, which we now know, regardless of contradictions, can bring Optimus back to life, but instead the use the shard to bring back another Transformer to ask him about the harvester that they need Optimus to destroy. SO WHY THE HELL DIDN'T THEY SKIP JETFIRE AND JUST BRING BACK OPTIMUS?

That's just flat out shoddy writing and a glaring plot hole.

They repaired Megatron first with parts ripped from another Decepticon. Then they used the Allspark shard like a defibrillator to jolt him back to life. Plus Sam doesn't know how to use the Allspark, all he's seen it do is create feral transformers and kill Megatron. And finally as soon as Optimus died the Decepticons put a bounty on Sam, so he didn't exactly have access to Optimus anyway.

Evil_the_Nub wrote:

Starscream GaGa wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:I've been asking the same question for years, and no one has given me a single logical answer yet: What plot holes?

Plus the only missing character was Wheelie, who only disappeared for the last battle.

The missing character would, of course, be Jolt.

Plot-holes? Let's just look at the AllSpark's involvement.

In the first movie, Megatron was killed by having the Allspark shoved into his chest. After dying Prime pulled the last shard out of his corpse where it was presumably given to NEST. Ravage steals said shared and then brings Megatron back to life by DOING THE EXACT SAME THING THAT KILLED HIM IN THE LAST MOVIE.

Later, Optimus is killed by Megatron and must be brought back to life. The humans have an Allspark shard, which we now know, regardless of contradictions, can bring Optimus back to life, but instead the use the shard to bring back another Transformer to ask him about the harvester that they need Optimus to destroy. SO WHY THE HELL DIDN'T THEY SKIP JETFIRE AND JUST BRING BACK OPTIMUS?

That's just flat out shoddy writing and a glaring plot hole.

They repaired Megatron first with parts ripped from another Decepticon. Then they used the Allspark shard like a defibrillator to jolt him back to life. Plus Sam doesn't know how to use the Allspark, all he's seen it do is create feral transformers and kill Megatron. And finally as soon as Optimus died the Decepticons put a bounty on Sam, so he didn't exactly have access to Optimus anyway.

Don't forget, the humans didn't even know about The Fallen or the sun harvester before Jetfire. They didn't know that only Optimus could kill him. Based off what Wheelie told them, Jetfire was supposed to be the most powerful and knowledgeable Cybertronian.

SlyTF1 wrote:Don't forget, the humans didn't even know about The Fallen or the sun harvester before Jetfire. They didn't know that only Optimus could kill him. Based off what Wheelie told them, Jetfire was supposed to be the most powerful and knowledgeable Cybertronian.

Seeing as you bring THAT up. It was never explained why Optimus Prime was the only person who could kill the Fallen, especially when he was just killed in the same way any other Transformer could have done.

Starscream GaGa wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:Don't forget, the humans didn't even know about The Fallen or the sun harvester before Jetfire. They didn't know that only Optimus could kill him. Based off what Wheelie told them, Jetfire was supposed to be the most powerful and knowledgeable Cybertronian.

Seeing as you bring THAT up. It was never explained why Optimus Prime was the only person who could kill the Fallen, especially when he was just killed in the same way any other Transformer could have done.

He never actually said only a Prime can kill him, he said only a Prime can defeat him. So yeah he could be killed like any other Transformer, but the only one strong enough to beat him in a fight would be a Prime.

Evil_the_Nub wrote:He never actually said only a Prime can kill him, he said only a Prime can defeat him. So yeah he could be killed like any other Transformer, but the only one strong enough to beat him in a fight would be a Prime.

That is so totally not what he mean't. Besides Megatron killed Prime so he's obviously not THAT strong.

Starscream GaGa wrote:

Evil_the_Nub wrote:He never actually said only a Prime can kill him, he said only a Prime can defeat him. So yeah he could be killed like any other Transformer, but the only one strong enough to beat him in a fight would be a Prime.

That is so totally not what he mean't. Besides Megatron killed Prime so he's obviously not THAT strong.

Yeah, by stabbing him in the back when his main priority was protecting Sam.

Starscream GaGa wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:It makes sense to me (and mostly everyone else) that the Allspark kills, but also revives. There is life and death within it. It's pretty obvious that the Allpark can kill you while you're alive and bring you back after you're dead.

That's not really at an excuse at all.

From what we've seen, the Allspark creates enery overloads. Every instance it ws used, it transfers energy, similar to the stuff that keeps transformers running. It kickstarts life, so, arguably what is without energy can be brought back 'online'. What already is functional can be overloaded and deactivated. This isn't some far-out sci-fi plot, you can do this at home with electricity.

SlyTF1 wrote:

Starscream GaGa wrote:

Evil_the_Nub wrote:He never actually said only a Prime can kill him, he said only a Prime can defeat him. So yeah he could be killed like any other Transformer, but the only one strong enough to beat him in a fight would be a Prime.

That is so totally not what he mean't. Besides Megatron killed Prime so he's obviously not THAT strong.

Yeah, by stabbing him in the back when his main priority was protecting Sam.

Was Prime really dead or just busted up? Same goes for Megatron. Maybe TF's are only dead when revival no longer is an option? Maybe Prime does posses an alternative type of energy that correspons to that of the Fallen, something like a frequency only active in 'Primes'.

All specualtion, but hey, this is a dork-forum so I'm dorking out.

Starscream GaGa wrote:

Evil_the_Nub wrote:He never actually said only a Prime can kill him, he said only a Prime can defeat him. So yeah he could be killed like any other Transformer, but the only one strong enough to beat him in a fight would be a Prime.

That is so totally not what he mean't. Besides Megatron killed Prime so he's obviously not THAT strong.

Megatron only killed Optimus by stabbing him in the back when he let his guard down, he got lucky. Optimus clearly showed he's in a class of his own during the forest battle. The Fallen also showed his superiority with his speed and telekinetic abilities, just like Optimus he's in a class of his own. Optimus was the only thing the Fallen considered a threat.

Starscream GaGa wrote:In the first movie, Megatron was killed by having the Allspark shoved into his chest. After dying Prime pulled the last shard out of his corpse where it was presumably given to NEST. Ravage steals said shared and then brings Megatron back to life by DOING THE EXACT SAME THING THAT KILLED HIM IN THE LAST MOVIE.

The cube was a repository of immense life giving power, all that power was slammed into Megatron at once, overloading him and "killing" him.

In ROTF the shard has only a fraction of the power the cube has and thus is able to bring him back.

That's how I see it anyway.

That's just flat out shoddy writing and a glaring plot hole.

...

Well, ROTF suffered from the Writer's Strike in the worst way. Forgotten characters, huge plotholes, etc. DOTM already has THAT over it.

It didn't suffer from the writers strike. It suffered from two over-rated writers who could write their way out of a wet paper bag if their life depended on it.

I have no doubt in my mind that even if the writers strike hadn't happened, ROTF wouldn't have changed much at all.

Rather than post a maelstrom of quotes I'll just say this:

When you shock a person who's alive with a defibrilator what happens? It knocks them out and can kill them by throwing their heartbeat out of whack. And if their heart is stopped? It can shock it back into a functioning state. It's kinda like that, but with an alien artifact of unknown origin capable of creating life from any available material. It's not a plot hole.

And yes, Sam had no knowledge of what the cube sliver in his posession could do until Wheelie said it would wake up Jetfire. It didn't even do that good a job if you saw Jetfire's state after getting a shot of energy from it. Most likely it wouldn't even work on a dead Transformer. There's also the fact that cube sliver was largely "drained" when it's knowlege and power was absorbed by Sam.

Quoting the Fallen: "The Cube's knowledge and power cannot be destroyed, it can only transform."

This is brought up in DotM since one of the known plot points is that Optimus revives Sentinel Prime with the Matrix, and the Matrix absorbed the power of the Allspark at the end of RotF (though this is pointed out in the novelization, it's still canon).

Edit: I swear, people who criticize this film act like they didn't even try to pay attention to it.

Capt.Failure wrote:Rather than post a maelstrom of quotes I'll just say this:

When you shock a person who's alive with a defibrilator what happens? It knocks them out and can kill them by throwing their heartbeat out of whack. And if their heart is stopped? It can shock it back into a functioning state. It's kinda like that, but with an alien artifact of unknown origin capable of creating life from any available material. It's not a plot hole.

If thinking that much thought went into that scene helps you sleep at night, more power to you. Seriously.

Capt.Failure wrote:And yes, Sam had no knowledge of what the cube sliver in his posession could do until Wheelie said it would wake up Jetfire. It didn't even do that good a job if you saw Jetfire's state after getting a shot of energy from it. Most likely it wouldn't even work on a dead Transformer. There's also the fact that cube sliver was largely "drained" when it's knowlege and power was absorbed by Sam.

I'll say it again. He was with the Autobots, there is no reason they wouldn't know what the shard could do. Also, LOL you think lame old-man comedy is actually a plot-device? No. And where is this evidence that the shard was drained by Sam?

Capt.Failure wrote:Quoting the Fallen: "The Cube's knowledge and power cannot be destroyed, it can only transform."

This is brought up in DotM since one of the known plot points is that Optimus revives Sentinel Prime with the Matrix, and the Matrix absorbed the power of the Allspark at the end of RotF (though this is pointed out in the novelization, it's still canon).

And becuase the majority have read the novel, this is an excellent example intelligent script writing! Oh wait... That's wrong.

Capt.Failure wrote:Edit: I swear, people who criticize this film act like they didn't even try to pay attention to it.

And I find your passion about this crappy film truly concerning.

Starscream GaGa wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:And yes, Sam had no knowledge of what the cube sliver in his posession could do until Wheelie said it would wake up Jetfire. It didn't even do that good a job if you saw Jetfire's state after getting a shot of energy from it. Most likely it wouldn't even work on a dead Transformer. There's also the fact that cube sliver was largely "drained" when it's knowlege and power was absorbed by Sam.

I'll say it again. He was with the Autobots, there is no reason they wouldn't know what the shard could do. Also, LOL you think lame old-man comedy is actually a plot-device? No. And where is this evidence that the shard was drained by Sam?

I guess that makes Wheelie, Cybertron's lore keeper? lol.

Starscream GaGa wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:Rather than post a maelstrom of quotes I'll just say this:

When you shock a person who's alive with a defibrilator what happens? It knocks them out and can kill them by throwing their heartbeat out of whack. And if their heart is stopped? It can shock it back into a functioning state. It's kinda like that, but with an alien artifact of unknown origin capable of creating life from any available material. It's not a plot hole.

If thinking that much thought went into that scene helps you sleep at night, more power to you. Seriously.

It's remarkable that every time you're out of arguments, you post the texual equivalent of an eyeroll instead of an actual reply.

RhA wrote:It's remarkable that every time you're out of arguments, you post the texual equivalent of an eyeroll instead of an actual reply.

There really is nothing to argue there. The whole defibrillator business has no real evidence at all and cannot be stated as fact.

So yes. Eye roll.

Starscream GaGa wrote:

RhA wrote:It's remarkable that every time you're out of arguments, you post the texual equivalent of an eyeroll instead of an actual reply.

There really is nothing to argue there. The whole defibrillator business has no real evidence at all and cannot be stated as fact.

So yes. Eye roll.

You can't state for a fact that 'that much thought' was or wasn't put in to the scene. It can be debated and argued untill the cows come home. If you don't like debating it, then why post in the first place?

Beyond that, the Allspark IS used as a defibrillator. That alone supports the idea as it being used as one, as much as Bumblebee is being used as a car.