The Energon Pub

lord black metal wrote:so why does megatron call prime his brother

erhm kinda cant explain that one, maybe beacuse there are of the same robotic race, i call some of my homies my brothaz lol maybe they were homies at one time.

Editor wrote:Not to poke holes in any arguments but the usage of Prime (and the origin/usage of Nemesis Prime) changes depending on what continuity you are looking at.

DING DING DING...

We have a winner here.

Rial Vestro wrote:I've seen mention of RID Scourge but what about G1 Motormaster?

What about him????I would hardly call him a "Prime" counterpart.

Rial Vestro wrote:Then there's allso Megatron himself who wasn't a Decepticon Optimus Prime but rather a Predacon or Vehicon Primal as his finnal form was a copy of Optimal Optimus. His toys allways had him listed as a Vehicon but I don't think they ever said on the show if he was part of the new faction or if he simply created them but was still himself, a Predacon.

I'm a bit confused by what your getting at here.

Yes Beast Machines Megatron gave himself Optimal Optmius's body on the show but they didnt make a toy of it.

Rial Vestro wrote:And I think Energon allso had a Black OP named Scourge that was a toy only character.

I dont think so.

1) Thanks CB

2) Ok here is where this fails.

Flare wrote:The Fallen was a Prime once and descends from the same Dynasty as Optimus.

This is correct.

Flare wrote: Nemesis Prime is techinically also from the same Dynasty if you use the ROTF storyline and continuity.

Technically, Wrong. Nemesis Prime could possibly be part of that Dynasty, except, that in the ROTF storyline there is no Nemesis Prime.(yet)

If you want to base an argument around that fact then you will need to have a character of that name involved. Until that happens then the point is moot.

3)To quickly touch on the subject of Motormaster. He is typically not mentioned because he was never intended to be a counterpart for Prime. Yes storylines put him against Prime, but he wasn't built or cloned to be a prime, just that he had a truck form to make him somewhat in scale (badly) to the other members of the stunts and the centre block of Menasor. His counter was Silverbolt, and while Silverbolt and the rest of his team were planes, you don't compare them against the seekers.

Officially seem to be 5 Nemesis Primes:
a) IDW's who was initially Nova Prime (earned his Prime designation)
b) Alternator NP, (Binaltech Black Convoy) built by Doctor Arkeville (given name as he resembled Alternator Prime/Binaltech Convoy/Ginrai)
c) Fun Pub/Universe NP Cloned then tortured by Unicron from the Prime of another dimension.
d) Classics/Universe NP A drone taken by Straxus, tortured, molded and crafted into a twisted version of Prime with no sence of self
e) From A/E/C. An entity sent by Unicron who took the form and powers of the strongest Transformer it found, naming Optimus. In Japan this character was Micron Legend Scourge (and possibly the same character as SuperLink Grand Scourge. Why call him Scourge? Because they took the name from the RID character.
so unofficially we add number 6:
f) RID Scourge. A protoform which partly scanned Optimus while gaining his form. In more ways than one, he is a greater NP than b or d. Also seeing that he shares the same Black Convoy name in Japan as others he does rightfully belong.


I say this while looking directly at the Motormaster on my desk, who isn't up on the shelf with my 3 Nemesis Primes. (G1 Black Convoy, C/U NP, and RID Scourge)

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:I've seen mention of RID Scourge but what about G1 Motormaster?

What about him????I would hardly call him a "Prime" counterpart.

Rial Vestro wrote:Then there's allso Megatron himself who wasn't a Decepticon Optimus Prime but rather a Predacon or Vehicon Primal as his finnal form was a copy of Optimal Optimus. His toys allways had him listed as a Vehicon but I don't think they ever said on the show if he was part of the new faction or if he simply created them but was still himself, a Predacon.

I'm a bit confused by what your getting at here.

Yes Beast Machines Megatron gave himself Optimal Optmius's body on the show but they didnt make a toy of it.

Rial Vestro wrote:And I think Energon allso had a Black OP named Scourge that was a toy only character.

I dont think so.

Appearently the whole point of that post flew over your head.

It had nothing to do with thoughs characters being "Primes" but rather than people are refering to RID Scourge as a "Nemesis Prime" and refering to Nemesis Prime as if he were the only evil Optimus Prime look-a-like.

Motormaster is an Optimus Prime look-a-like, at least in vehicle mode and that was even used as a plot for an episode. I said nothing about Motormaster being a Prime or anything even remotly close to that. All I said was that he and Optimus shared the same vehicle mode, Optimus posed as him for an episode, and he would technically be the first evil Optimus look-a-like.

Same thing with all the characters I mentioned.

The whole point was I don't get why only RID Scourge is being thrown into the same catigory as Nemesis Prime.

Now as for BM Megatron, I don't understand what his lack of haveing a toy has to do with anything. No one said this topic would be limited to toys. He was a character on the show and he shared his form with Optimus so he was an evil Optimus look-a-like.

As for Energon Scourge, maybe that was someone's kitbash. I know I've seen pictures of it online but I didn't know if that was an offical toy or not which is why I said "I think" there is one.

The entire post was about evil Optimus Prime or Primal look-a-likes. And it was all because people were talking about RID Scourge as if he were the only evil Optimus Prime look-a-like who wasn't named Nemesis Prime and talking about Nemesis Prime as if he was ALLWAYS nothing more than a Black repaint of Optimus Prime, which neither one makes any sence.

Rial Vestro wrote:As for Energon Scourge, maybe that was someone's kitbash. I know I've seen pictures of it online but I didn't know if that was an offical toy or not which is why I said "I think" there is one.

Takara put out a model kit of Energon Prime (fully transformable) and then gave it the Scourge/Nemesis Prime makeover.

Rial Vestro wrote:Appearently the whole point of that post flew over your head.

Apparently it did.

Rial Vestro wrote:It had nothing to do with thoughs characters being "Primes" but rather than people are refering to RID Scourge as a "Nemesis Prime" and refering to Nemesis Prime as if he were the only evil Optimus Prime look-a-like.

Well for all intents and perposuses RID Scourge was to be an "Evil\Nemesis" Prime.

Rial Vestro wrote:Motormaster is an Optimus Prime look-a-like, at least in vehicle mode

Hardly.

Their both trucks with trailers.

Even the truch cabs look different.

Rial Vestro wrote:The whole point was I don't get why only RID Scourge is being thrown into the same catigory as Nemesis Prime.

I dont see why he wouldnt.

Rial Vestro wrote:
Now as for BM Megatron, I don't understand what his lack of haveing a toy has to do with anything.

It doesnt.

Just something you said made me think you were talking toys.

I think it was when you mentioned the word "re-paint".

It just made me think toys.

Sorry for the mix up.

Rial Vestro wrote: As for Energon Scourge, maybe that was someone's kitbash. I know I've seen pictures of it online but I didn't know if that was an offical toy or not which is why I said "I think" there is one.

No you might be right........I was thinking about the big Energon Prime....the one that combined.

I do believe they repainted the smaller version for a Bot-con or Takara release.

What about Rodimus Prime? Hehe, Michael Bay will have to completely re-write the "Chosen One's origins" if they ever decide to bring that character into the new movies. According to Optimus Prime, you have to be born a Prime to be one? So what the hell will they do with 'Hot Rod'?

Flare wrote:What about Rodimus Prime? Hehe, Michael Bay will have to completely re-write the "Chosen One's origins" if they ever decide to bring that character into the new movies. According to Optimus Prime, you have to be born a Prime to be one? So what the hell will they do with 'Hot Rod'?

Not to sound rude but....why would Bay have to change anything???

Optimus did not say "you have to be born a Prime to be one" in the film.

And even if.............theres nothing precluding the possibility that there's an other "Prime" dependent somewhere else in the universe.

And whos to say Optimus hasnt created or had a son??

The way I see it the door is wide open.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:The whole point was I don't get why only RID Scourge is being thrown into the same catigory as Nemesis Prime.

I dont see why he wouldnt.

You missread that statement. You seem to have missed the word I've put in bold this time.

I didn't say he shouldn't be thrown into the same catigory. What I did say is that I don't get why he's the ONLY one thrown into the same catigory when there are others besides him.

Looks like we got the rest cleared up now.

Rial Vestro wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:The whole point was I don't get why only RID Scourge is being thrown into the same catigory as Nemesis Prime.

I dont see why he wouldnt.

You missread that statement. You seem to have missed the word I've put in bold this time.

I didn't say he shouldn't be thrown into the same catigory. What I did say is that I don't get why he's the ONLY one thrown into the same catigory when there are others besides him.

Looks like we got the rest cleared up now.

Your right.

Rial Vestro wrote:The whole point was I don't get why only RID Scourge is being thrown into the same catigory as Nemesis Prime.

Again Because he is a NP, as shown by his Japanese name being Black CONVOY. And we all should know that in US-Japan naming conventions Prime=Convoy. Odds are, had Hasbro given the matter more thought, or had RID appeared during or after the AEC series, that Scourge would have been named Nemesis instead.

Editor wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:The whole point was I don't get why only RID Scourge is being thrown into the same catigory as Nemesis Prime.

Again Because he is a NP, as shown by his Japanese name being Black CONVOY. And we all should know that in US-Japan naming conventions Prime=Convoy. Odds are, had Hasbro given the matter more thought, or had RID appeared during or after the AEC series, that Scourge would have been named Nemesis instead.

That really doesn't mean anything except that his name was Black Convoy in Japan.

You do realize that the number of Japanese characters named Convoy is far greater than US characters with the name Prime. By your logic every single Convoy to come out of Japan should be a Prime. So who do you figure these characters should be called?

Cybertron Evac

Cybertron Override

Cybertron Metroplex

Cybertron Scourge

All of these characters and I'm sure there are more but Seibertron seems to be missing some of it's old search functions, are called Convoy in Japan yet non of them are Primes in the US.

I allso ran a search on Prime and found several of them who are not Convoys in Japan.

Vector Prime

Leo Prime

Nemesis Prime

Sentinel Prime

Shockwave/Longarm Prime

I don't see where the reasoning lies that Convoy = Prime so RID Scourge/CR Black Convoy must be Nemesis Prime.

Now if you want to reason that it's because Armada Nemesis Prime is called Scourge in Japan that would make a little more sence except then wouldn't that mean that in the case of the RID character his Japanese name should be Scourge?

It's all kinda confusing trying to renamed characters based on entirely different characters and given that RID came BEFORE Armada I think the Armada names would be wrong if either of them were not the RID names. So technically Armada should of been Black Convoy/Scourge not RID should of been Scourge/Nemesis Prime.

In any case it all sounds like your just randomly assumeing what they should of been called based on trivial things that really don't make much sence no matter how you look at it. And you're stating these assumetions as facts.

So plain and simple, has anyone who actully worked on RID said that they originally wanted to call Scourge Nemesis Prime? If not than he is by no means a Nemesis Prime.

At the verry least it is rather odd that both characters are called Scourge, RID in the US, and Micro Legends in Japan, but Car Robots is Black Convoy and Armada is Nemesis Prime.

I still can't (or maybe won't) believe that Optimus and Megs are related.

But if that is supposed to be the case, then yeah, I guess Megatron could be a Prime.
Because Optimus is their direct decendant and if they're brothers, then Megs is their decendant too.

But if that was the case then you'd think that they have mentioned something about Megatron's corruption.

I seriously doubt that the two are brothers in the sense that they came from the same parents or relatives or whatever.

During the fight between The Fallen and OP, you hear The Fallen tell Prime that he will join his brothers (the deceased Primes) to which our Prime responds, "They were YOUR brothers too."

They were not speaking in terms of being related here.
It's a spiritual/mental bond.

Siren Prime wrote:I still can't (or maybe won't) believe that Optimus and Megs are related.

But if that is supposed to be the case, then yeah, I guess Megatron could be a Prime.
Because Optimus is their direct decendant and if they're brothers, then Megs is their decendant too.

But if that was the case then you'd think that they have mentioned something about Megatron's corruption.

I seriously doubt that the two are brothers in the sense that they came from the same parents or relatives or whatever.

During the fight between The Fallen and OP, you hear The Fallen tell Prime that he will join his brothers (the deceased Primes) to which our Prime responds, "They were YOUR brothers too."

They were not speaking in terms of being related here.
It's a spiritual/mental bond.

I'll agree with you on one point and then disagree on the other (kinda like yin & yang )

Prime and Megs direct relations in the movie continuity...nope. I'd bet money that their proto-hatchers were thousands of miles seperate. Brothers in a 'Comrades In Arms" sense, yes in the beggining.

The Fallen related to the other Primes...Yup. He just went gonzo and tried to horde power and threw all principles out the window. He was essentially disowned. Also kind of makes him (to Optimus) that creepy kind of uncle that you don't want watching your kids during the family reunions. Fallen was brother in very direct sense, Prime was more like a son or grandson but a 'Brother' in the Fraternal Order sense.
At least that was the best way I could come up with to desacribe it since the writers did leave a few holes in the movie big enough to drive a '94 Peterbilt through,

While Megatron may have been able to manipulate the power of the Allspark had he actually laid his hands on it, I think that had he attempted to use the Matrix for anything other than a key it would have fried his cookie. But that's just my own opinion. I would hope that the powers that be would have some kind of safeguards on items of unlimited power otherwise it would be like dropping a crate full of M1911-A1 Auto pistols and ammo in the midst of the local school yard.
You know, the more I think back on this movie, the more I realize that they truly, despite the rating, did not give a rats rear-end that children might see this film. I'm realizing that there was all kinds of stuff that happened that had no place being in the TF Universe at all.

Rial Vestro wrote:

Editor wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:You do realize that the number of Japanese characters named Convoy is far greater than US characters with the name Prime. By your logic every single Convoy to come out of Japan should be a Prime. So who do you figure these characters should be called?

Cybertron Evac

Cybertron Override

Cybertron Metroplex

Cybertron Scourge

All of these characters and I'm sure there are more but Seibertron seems to be missing some of it's old search functions, are called Convoy in Japan yet non of them are Primes in the US.

I allso ran a search on Prime and found several of them who are not Convoys in Japan.

Vector Prime

Leo Prime

Nemesis Prime

Sentinel Prime

Shockwave/Longarm Prime

I don't see where the reasoning lies that Convoy = Prime so RID Scourge/CR Black Convoy must be Nemesis Prime.
.

In the first case of Convoy=Prime ... it depends on the continuity ... for the Cybertron/Galaxy Force cartoon, Convoy meant "leader" (which I guess you could say meant "Prime" to Cybertronias). Every person you list from the Cybertron cartoon is the leader of that specific planet - Earth, Speed, Giant, Jungle. it's why their toys have the gold Cyber Planet Key ... because in the cartoon they were the ones who held/protected the real physical key for that planet. I'm sure in the US if they didn't have to worry about keeping names for Trademark purposes, they would have found plenty of "Prime" names to call them.

As for Vector Prime, I do not know what he is called in Japan, but I will assume he is still a Convoy of some sort there.

Leo Prime is Lio Convoy in Japan ... so yes, he is a Prime.

Nemesis Prime is Black Convoy in Japan, and evil Prime/clone.

As for Sentinel Prime/Longarm Prime has Animated aired in Japan yet? If it hasn't it is safe to assume that they will be Convoys ... just not in the G1 meaning of the word.

And to let you know, the reason there are more Japanese Convoys than American Primes is because in Japan, the Beast Wars "Primal" or leader title is considered the same as Prime (Beast Convoy, Lio Convoy, Big Convoy) and the G1 cartoon lasted longer over in Japan (Star Convoy .. etc.) So I would say considering we are about even on the amount of Primes using the "G1" title ... for all the other continuities, that depends on writers/translations.

Imperious Prime wrote:As for Vector Prime, I do not know what he is called in Japan, but I will assume he is still a Convoy of some sort there.

I don't know how he is called in Japan.His chinese name is Vector(not Prime,just Vector)if this means anything.However, I think he is correctly called "Prime" since he has been a holder of the Matrix(I don't say leader of the Autobots since we don't know if there were Bots/Cons back then).

As far as movie Megatron is concerned,I don't think he is/was/could have been a Prime.In the movie-verse he isn't even the Decepticons leader,if I understood Fallen's role in the whole story correctly.

T-Macksimus wrote:I'll agree with you on one point and then disagree on the other (kinda like yin & yang )

Prime and Megs direct relations in the movie continuity...nope. I'd bet money that their proto-hatchers were thousands of miles seperate. Brothers in a 'Comrades In Arms" sense, yes in the beggining.

The Fallen related to the other Primes...Yup. He just went gonzo and tried to horde power and threw all principles out the window. He was essentially disowned. Also kind of makes him (to Optimus) that creepy kind of uncle that you don't want watching your kids during the family reunions. Fallen was brother in very direct sense, Prime was more like a son or grandson but a 'Brother' in the Fraternal Order sense.

Yeah, I was thinking about that.
The Primes (the original Primes) would have been directly related.

What I meant to say was the when The Fallen told Prime that he woulds join his brothers, he meant it in a fraternal way, because Optimus is their decentant, not their direct brother.

Optimus is part of the Prime legacy, and that makes him a "brother".

But no, you're right. The Fallen really is their brother.

So we were more on the same page than I realized. Wow, that's becoming more and more a rare thing on this site. Must be the full moon.

Now if we could just get a few more followers then it would start feeling REALLY bizare.

T-Macksimus wrote:So we were more on the same page than I realized. Wow, that's becoming more and more a rare thing on this site. Must be the full moon.

Now if we could just get a few more followers then it would start feeling REALLY bizare.

If they were to re enable the forum subfactions we could really band together.

Editor wrote:

T-Macksimus wrote:So we were more on the same page than I realized. Wow, that's becoming more and more a rare thing on this site. Must be the full moon.

Now if we could just get a few more followers then it would start feeling REALLY bizare.

If they were to re enable the forum subfactions we could really band together.

LOL!! Website coup anyone?

Imperious Prime wrote:Leo Prime is Lio Convoy in Japan ... so yes, he is a Prime.

That's not entirely accurate. Leo Prime is a repaint of Cybertron Leobreaker. He's based on Lio Convoy for sure but the two are entirely different toys.

Lio Convoy has no American counterpart sence his toy was never relised in the U.S. and that entire series never happed in the US. Given his head design and his position on the show if he had been a US character they probly would of simply reused the name Optimus Primal.

Leo Prime like wise has no Japanese counterpart. At least as far as I know his toy has not been relised in Japan.

Allso while Lio Convoy was actully in a cartoon, Leo Prime is a toy only character who only seems to share his color scheme with Lio Convoy.

As for Sentinel Prime/Longarm Prime has Animated aired in Japan yet? If it hasn't it is safe to assume that they will be Convoys ... just not in the G1 meaning of the word.

And to let you know, the reason there are more Japanese Convoys than American Primes is because in Japan, the Beast Wars "Primal" or leader title is considered the same as Prime

I know that but it really has nothing to do with there being more Convoys than Primes. Did you notice I never listed Beast Convoy. I only listed characters who either don't have an American counterpart or just don't have Prime in their names.

Even if you only counted the characters who have both American and Japanese names the Convoys still outnumber the Primes. And I'm still not even counting all the different names Optimus Prime has had in Japan sence they actully give him a new name in every series insted of reuseing G1 Convoy all the time like the US does. (So basically Convoy, Monster Convoy, Galaxy Convoy are all just Optimus Prime and I'm not counting them seperatly.)

Rial Vestro wrote:
Lio Convoy has no American counterpart sence his toy was never relised in the U.S. and that entire series never happed in the US. Given his head design and his position on the show if he had been a US character they probly would of simply reused the name Optimus Primal.

Thats not completely accurate,

Lio Convoy was available in the US threw Hasbros online store.

And IDW released a series of Beast Wars comics that ,according to Hasbro, are tied and canon with the Beast wars cartoon.

Lio Convoy and Big Convoy were featured in those comics.

So the characters from those series are connected to the US continuity.....untill they change their minds again.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Lio Convoy was available in the US threw Hasbros online store.

Only time I've ever seen Lio Convoy in the US was at a dollar tree and it wasn't even the real thing. He was among many knock off figures including BM Optimus Primal, BW Rattrap, the guy with the clock on his stomach. and non of them were even made to their original size. BW Rattrap who was actully a basic figure, the knock off version could EAT the real one quite literally sence they were all quite hollow and made of cheap plastic. Anyway the Knock off still had the Japanese name.

And IDW released a series of Beast Wars comics that ,according to Hasbro, are tied and canon with the Beast wars cartoon.

Lio Convoy and Big Convoy were featured in those comics.

OK but what were their names in thoughs comics? Did they have different names or were they still refered to as Lio Convoy and Big Convoy?

Rial Vestro wrote:Only time I've ever seen Lio Convoy in the US was at a dollar tree and it wasn't even the real thing. He was among many knock off figures including BM Optimus Primal, BW Rattrap, the guy with the clock on his stomach. and non of them were even made to their original size. BW Rattrap who was actully a basic figure, the knock off version could EAT the real one quite literally sence they were all quite hollow and made of cheap plastic. Anyway the Knock off still had the Japanese name.

I've seen those "knock offs" as well.


Not very flattering

But a few Beast Wars Neo's and BW2 figures were available threw Hasbro's online store.

OK but what were their names in thoughs comics? Did they have different names or were they still refered to as Lio Convoy and Big Convoy?

Did you miss when I said "Lio Convoy and Big Convoy were featured in those comics" ????

Maybe I didnt make myself clear...and if thats the case I'm sorry....but I wouldnt have said that were "featured" if their names were different.
'
Yes their names were Big and Lio Convoys.

Also other Japanese counterparts [characters shareing the same molds as US characters] with different names were also used featuring their Japanese names.