The Energon Pub

in rotf megatron is the fallens decipal and and since the fallen is a prime or ex prime doesn't that make megatron a prime to. that is also where megatron and optimus call each other brothers because they are both primes.

Yeah I thouht about that too. That Optimus said Megatron was his brother in the first movie. So wouldn't that make him a Prime too? I think we were ment the assume they were literally brothers, I mean related, so why wouldn't Megatron be a Prime?

maybe because you have to be chosen or deserve to be a prime

The name or title of "Prime" has different meanings depending on which continuity you're looking at.

G1 Prime was a title that offten came with haveing the Matrix.

RID we really don't know sence there were only 2 Primes and one of them was just a combined mode. (Optimus Prime and Ultra Magnus forming Omega Prime.)

Unicron Trilligy, allthough never spicifically stated in the series that Q and A with Vector Prime on the web site stated that "Prime" was a title given to all Autobots with important jobs to do. Optimus Prime was again a Matrix barrer in that series and Vector Prime had his time sword thingy so I think by Important Jobs he ment are keepers of Cybertronian relics.

And Animated, Prime was just a rank that seemed to be just below Magnus.

Now in the movie as far as I know, haven't seen ROTF but I don't think they've exsplained the meaning of "Prime" for this continuity. And I'm allmost positive that whatever it means to be Prime has nothing to do with being related to eachother. In other words, unless they spicifically state that "Prime" is nothing more than a family name then being Optimus' Brother would not make Megatron a Prime.

yeah but what about the megatron he is the fallens decipal and apprentice

lord black metal wrote:yeah but what about the megatron he is the fallens decipal and apprentice

And?????

How would that make Make Megatron a Prime???

I think that no matter the continuity, being a true Prime is to hold to the highest ideals of Honor, Valor, Virtue, Self Sacrifice. To preserve the highest and most noble ideals of the Cybertronian race. It's not something that can be attained through direct relation. The Fallen, even having been one of the original Primes was not above being corrupted (who really is?) and essentially "fell from grace" He still retained the power of an original Prime but none of the morals and ideals. As such, he probably misled Megatron with the false promise of the power of a Prime and planned to simply use him as a means to an end. He very likely would have destroyed Megatron had his plan suceeded rather than share the power that he didn't deserve to begin with. Or, if he had shared it I have little doubt that the power of the Primes would have destroyed Megatron since he had none of the virtues necessary to wield such power.

(The following is covered in the comic prequel of the 2007 movie. This is just a loose summary)
At one time Megatron and Prime were as close as brothers. Both shared the responsibility of governing Cybertron, each with seperate but equally important roles to fulfill. Both chosen for their roles because of the inner strengths they displayed. Unfortunately, Megatron just happened to have that one hidden character flaw that would later grow into an all consuming lust, something made easier to satisfy given his ranking in the Cybertronian structure.

Power and politics really have a way of bringing out the worst in people.

T-Macksimus wrote:I think that no matter the continuity, being a true Prime is to hold to the highest ideals of Honor, Valor, Virtue, Self Sacrifice. To preserve the highest and most noble ideals of the Cybertronian race. It's not something that can be attained through direct relation.

Have you forgotten Nemesis Prime? He is a Prime and little more than an Optimus repaint but he is a Decepticon.

Rial Vestro wrote:

T-Macksimus wrote:I think that no matter the continuity, being a true Prime is to hold to the highest ideals of Honor, Valor, Virtue, Self Sacrifice. To preserve the highest and most noble ideals of the Cybertronian race. It's not something that can be attained through direct relation.

Have you forgotten Nemesis Prime? He is a Prime and little more than an Optimus repaint but he is a Decepticon.

In Nemmy's case, 99% of the time he's not really alive so to speak, so the "Prime" in his name is more of a dig at Optimus, who he is cloned from - sort of deliberately insulting the entire "Prime" rank

Valandar wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:

T-Macksimus wrote:I think that no matter the continuity, being a true Prime is to hold to the highest ideals of Honor, Valor, Virtue, Self Sacrifice. To preserve the highest and most noble ideals of the Cybertronian race. It's not something that can be attained through direct relation.

Have you forgotten Nemesis Prime? He is a Prime and little more than an Optimus repaint but he is a Decepticon.

In Nemmy's case, 99% of the time he's not really alive so to speak, so the "Prime" in his name is more of a dig at Optimus, who he is cloned from - sort of deliberately insulting the entire "Prime" rank

That's the diplomatic response and very well put I might say. My own personal opinion...he's nothing more than Has/Tak's excuse to re-use a mold and milk us for more money, regardless of the fact that he has, in later incarnations, been incorporated into the cartoon and finally the comic continuities. For me, in the grand scheme of things his legitimacy outside of a purely marketing standpoint will always be in question. There are times when one has to take a step back from their immersion in the fandom and look at the bigger picture. This whole "Universe" that we commune in is, ultimately, not embraced in the hands of Primus but cupped in the sweaty palms of executives and shareholders. The power of the Primes is insignificant compared to the driving fury of profit margins.

And yes, I am aware that our most recent Nemesis Prime actually started out as a full on, legitimate, Prime but 1) He left the Matrix behind, 2) He forsook all the Principles and precepts of the Primes and oh yeah,like Valandar mentioned 3) He's Dead!
There's also the fact that when going 1 on 1 with a REAL Prime, despite devastating power and vast knowledge and experience available to him, he failed. Lotta good his former "Prime"ness did him.

You do realize I don't read the comics and haven't got a clue what the heck you're talking about right?

The Nemesis Prime I was refering to was an upgraded form for Armada Sideways and he was Nemesis Prime for all of 1 episode then changed back into Sideways at the end. There really was never any sort of exsplination of any kind to exsplain why he was upgraded in the first place then no exsplination what so ever to exsplain why he changed back.

I have read Nemesis Prime's toy bio which has absolutly nothing to do with Sideways and alot to do with him haveing a conection to the Matrix and wanting to get it from Optimus.

So Armada Nemesis Prime, Cartoon continuity is the same characters as Sideways. Comic continuity nearest I can figure is simular to RID Ultra Magnus only more bad ass to the point where he actully switches sides and becomes a Decepticon insted of just being a loner... and a bit of a jerk.

Rial Vestro wrote:You do realize I don't read the comics and haven't got a clue what the heck you're talking about right?

The Nemesis Prime I was refering to was an upgraded form for Armada Sideways and he was Nemesis Prime for all of 1 episode then changed back into Sideways at the end. There really was never any sort of exsplination of any kind to exsplain why he was upgraded in the first place then no exsplination what so ever to exsplain why he changed back.

I have read Nemesis Prime's toy bio which has absolutly nothing to do with Sideways and alot to do with him haveing a conection to the Matrix and wanting to get it from Optimus.

So Armada Nemesis Prime, Cartoon continuity is the same characters as Sideways. Comic continuity nearest I can figure is simular to RID Ultra Magnus only more bad ass to the point where he actully switches sides and becomes a Decepticon insted of just being a loner... and a bit of a jerk.

Ummmmm...well...damn, this is sure awkward. Sorry man. Somebody have a shoehorn cause I seem to have stuck my foot in my mouth.
The sum total of my argument comes down to a fight between Jack and Squat and Jack just left.
I would love to catch you up on the history of a few more of the Nemesis Prime characters but I don't have the time or space in this thread to accomodate that (and the most recent one is actually a cool story arc) and the awkard factor at this point is such that my brain is stumbling. I'll say sorry again and have to get back to ya.

NO! If you raed the book by Allen Foster The Fallen stated he would make Megatron a prime, but in the end of the book as the Fallen was getting killed, Optimus stated to Megatron that you must be born a prime to be a prime.

MegatronsLady420 wrote:NO! If you raed the book by Allen Foster The Fallen stated he would make Megatron a prime, but in the end of the book as the Fallen was getting killed, Optimus stated to Megatron that you must be born a prime to be a prime.

What she said.

Figuratively or literally? Thats's the whole sticky problem with this subject. You almost have to be inside the head of the individual responsible for the creation of the concept to get the true answer to this.
People can be born into a royal family, assume the position of King or Queen later in life, go through all the proper training and unless they are "hardwired" for it still absolutely suck at it. They are King or Queen in title only.
Likewise, people can be born peasants but go on to develop characteristics that inspire the best in everyone, be able to lead and advise others around them, show great courage and compassion. They have all the makings of a true leader but never have the oppurtunity to benefit the masses because of their station in life. They could be quite literally "Born" to be King or Queen and yet it never comes to pass.

So which is it?

Yes, in this movie universe, this Prime is a direct descendent of the Primes,(still not sure how that works) but what about the other continuities? War Within Prime was a number cruncher who laughed at the thought that he could be Prime. He thought the Council had somehow made a mistake. Same also can be said of most previous incarnations.
I personally don't think it is a "lineage" thing. I think he may have been "Born" with the traits deep within him necessary to fulfill all the mandates of becoming a Prime but I shudder at the idea of his protohatcher just dumping him out on the floor and going "Bingo, there's another Prime for ya".

Rial Vestro wrote:

T-Macksimus wrote:I think that no matter the continuity, being a true Prime is to hold to the highest ideals of Honor, Valor, Virtue, Self Sacrifice. To preserve the highest and most noble ideals of the Cybertronian race. It's not something that can be attained through direct relation.

Have you forgotten Nemesis Prime? He is a Prime and little more than an Optimus repaint but he is a Decepticon.

Nemesis Prime was a real Prime like Optimus,and he was known as Nova Prime.He was the Prime before Sentinel Prime.But he turned out to be a bad guy and later he became known as Nemesis Prime.For more info check:

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Nova_Prime

All transformers come from the same source, so even if they are not biologically born like humans, they can call one another brothers. However I think the title "Prime" may be defined as "King" to cybertronians because they do all wear those kingly/pharaoh headdresses. Megatron wants to be a Prime in the prequel and serves the Fallen to obtain this 'Kingship', which I believe means that he is not a "Prime".

MegatronsLady420 wrote:NO! If you raed the book by Allen Foster The Fallen stated he would make Megatron a prime, but in the end of the book as the Fallen was getting killed, Optimus stated to Megatron that you must be born a prime to be a prime.

Very well stated! And yes to be part of a royal "Dynasty" you must be born from the line of that Dynasty.

so why does megatron call prime his brother

Flare wrote:All transformers come from the same source, so even if they are not biologically born like humans, they can call one another brothers. However I think the title "Prime" may be defined as "King" to cybertronians because they do all wear those kingly/pharaoh headdresses. Megatron wants to be a Prime in the prequel and serves the Fallen to obtain this 'Kingship', which I believe means that he is not a "Prime".

Didn't it show it the Prequil comic that came with the first movie that Optimus and Megatron use the rule over Cybertron TOGEATHER before Megatron betrayed Optimus and tried to take complete controll himself.

If Prime is indeed a title of a ruler then that would make Megatron a Prime but I really don't see where the Fallen fits into that.

lord black metal wrote:so why does megatron call prime his brother

No disrespect but you need to open your mind.

Why were the Doobie Brothers called brothers????

Why are wanabe priest called brothers???

What do soldiers sometimes call each other brothers????

Why does Luis Farakon refer to many in his religion as brother???

Why does policemen call other cops brothers???

Whydo members of loges,Freemason groups,Clubs or all sorts, call each other brothers????

Here are the definitions for the word "brother".And as it stand we dont have enough info to rull any of them out.

1: a male who has the same parents as another or one parent in common with another
2: one related to another by common ties or interests
3: a fellow member —used as a title for ministers in some evangelical denominations
4: one of a type similar to another
5 a: kinsman b: one who shares with another a common national or racial origin ; especially : soul brother
6 acapitalized : a member of a congregation of men not in holy orders and usually in hospital or school work b: a member of a men's religious order who is not preparing for or is not ready for holy orders <a lay brother>

Rial Vestro wrote:

Flare wrote:All transformers come from the same source, so even if they are not biologically born like humans, they can call one another brothers. However I think the title "Prime" may be defined as "King" to cybertronians because they do all wear those kingly/pharaoh headdresses. Megatron wants to be a Prime in the prequel and serves the Fallen to obtain this 'Kingship', which I believe means that he is not a "Prime".

Didn't it show it the Prequil comic that came with the first movie that Optimus and Megatron use the rule over Cybertron TOGEATHER before Megatron betrayed Optimus and tried to take complete controll himself.

If Prime is indeed a title of a ruler then that would make Megatron a Prime but I really don't see where the Fallen fits into that.

Megatrons title was "Lord Protector.....so not a "Prime".

Not to poke holes in any arguments but the usage of Prime (and the origin/usage of Nemesis Prime) changes depending on what continuity you are looking at.

As far as the movie continuity goes:

MegatronsLady420 wrote:NO! If you raed the book by Allen Foster The Fallen stated he would make Megatron a prime, but in the end of the book as the Fallen was getting killed, Optimus stated to Megatron that you must be born a prime to be a prime.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Megatrons title was "Lord Protector.....so not a "Prime".

These statements cover the whole argument.

As for a number of continuities, Prime is the head of the Autobot forces and embodies the best qualities of leadership. The Decepticon counterpart is sometimes given the rank of Emperor of Destruction. (reverse this for Shattered Glass)

The series of Nemesis Primes come from a number of backgrounds so their usage of Prime just comes from their source material, whether it be Nova Prime gone bad, an Optimus clone tortured by Unicron, or Straxus, or built by Arkeville. Some don't even use the name (RID Scourge)

Editor wrote:Not to poke holes in any arguments but the usage of Prime (and the origin/usage of Nemesis Prime) changes depending on what continuity you are looking at.

As far as the movie continuity goes:

MegatronsLady420 wrote:NO! If you raed the book by Allen Foster The Fallen stated he would make Megatron a prime, but in the end of the book as the Fallen was getting killed, Optimus stated to Megatron that you must be born a prime to be a prime.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Megatrons title was "Lord Protector.....so not a "Prime".

These statements cover the whole argument.

As for a number of continuities, Prime is the head of the Autobot forces and embodies the best qualities of leadership. The Decepticon counterpart is sometimes given the rank of Emperor of Destruction. (reverse this for Shattered Glass)

The series of Nemesis Primes come from a number of backgrounds so their usage of Prime just comes from their source material, whether it be Nova Prime gone bad, an Optimus clone tortured by Unicron, or Straxus, or built by Arkeville. Some don't even use the name (RID Scourge)

Who ever said a King was always a good guy. The Fallen was a Prime once and descends from the same Dynasty as Optimus. Nemesis Prime is techinically also from the same Dynasty if you use the ROTF storyline and continuity. Just like on earth we tend to have Tyrants as Monarchs. So you don't have to be good natured to be a Prime. The Autobots are just fortunate that Optimus Prime was, one of the good guys. The pharaoh style of headdresses worn by the earlier Primes represent their birth right as part of an ancient ruling Dynasty of Cybertron. On earth Dynasties usually are associated with Emperors of China and Pharaohs of Egypt. And in those earthly Dynasties, they were worshiped on Earth like living Gods. But again King doesn't mean good guy. So not all Primes have to be good.

I've seen mention of RID Scourge but what about G1 Motormaster?

Technically Nemesis Prime is a fairly new name for a Black Decepticon Optimus look alike to have. Motormaster was the first to be refered to as a Decepticon counterpart to Optimus and that's only because they share the same alt mode and Optimus spent an episode under cover as Motormaster. (You know that weird episode where some how painting his cab black gave him a different robot mode.)

Then there's allso Megatron himself who wasn't a Decepticon Optimus Prime but rather a Predacon or Vehicon Primal as his finnal form was a copy of Optimal Optimus. His toys allways had him listed as a Vehicon but I don't think they ever said on the show if he was part of the new faction or if he simply created them but was still himself, a Predacon.

Then it was RID Scourge.

And I think Energon allso had a Black OP named Scourge that was a toy only character.

I don't think Nemesis Prime should really be refered to as Black Decepticon Optimus sence as far as I know only 2 versions of him actully fit that description, and one of them I think came out years later in the Universe toy line as a repaint of Big Convoy. Pluse the fact there have been more Evil Optimus Primes who weren't simply Black repaints of him.

As far as the cartoon goes, Armada is the only Black repaint of Optimus to be called Nemesis Prime and the only Black repaint of Optimus to be called anything really.

G1 Motormaster had the same vehicle mode but otherwise was an entirely different mold.

BM Megatron wasn't even a repaint, just Optimal Optimus with a different face.

RID Scourge was a repaint of G2 Optimus who didn't even appear in the cartoon as Optimus. The exsplination they gave for him to look like Optimus was that he scaned his vehicle mode while Optimus was trying to save a human inside the truck and he scaned all 3 at the same time, Optimus, the tanker truck, and the human. Humans for some reason are able to controll Fortress Maximus in this series so Scourge allso adopted that trait due to his scanning one with his alt mode.

And then there was Sideways/Nemesis Prime who was the only repaint of Optimus that lasted for all of one episode.

personally out of all the evil Optimus Primes I think Nemesis is the best name but really, there were 3 others who were more than repaints and were far better characters than he was.