The Energon Pub

[Tramp]

THEY ARE NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Listen, you brain-dead wannabe know-it-all, get it through that ignorant skull of yours: HASBRO DOES NOT HAVE CREATIVE CONTROL OF COMICS. Why would they have creative control over something that isn't related to any current toys? The only thing Hasbro gets is a cut of the profits FROM THE COMIC SALES. They give the creative license so that the writers and artists can create new stories and new characters, as well as new takes on old characters. Otherwise, they'd write the comics themselves, rather than giving it to a comic company. Duh. That's why the pack-in comics in toys are non-canon, doofus. Why woudl they give the thumbs up to anything that debunks what's written in tech-specs.

Damolisher dont let him get under your skin.Look ,I used to intern at Marvel Comics a long time ago ,and while I cant speek for IDW's deal with Hasbro what I do know about the prosses is as follows........each licenceing deal is different but for the most part the comic book Editor will sumit a story arc bible to the licence owner for aproval not each and every script.For the most part they do not make many changes these days.I am not speeking about the past mind you........When Hasbro was dealing with Marvel they had more input because they were trying to introduce new toys trew the comic books.

Precisely, The only time an individual script might need special approval is if it has a major event

Thank you for clearing that up Sto_Vo_Kor. OK, so I was wrong for the most part. But Tramp, you too, were wrong about Hasbro retconning things.

No, I wasn't. Hasbro has retconned things more than once, through its licensees. Hasbro specifically approved the Beast Wars and Wreckers retconning of Primus into the G1 cartoon continuity. That was part of the over-all story bibles for those two series. HAsbro did write the Universe stroy line for the toy line which is a cross-reality story line which pulls from all continuities, including G1. Therefore, yes, Hasbro has, and dooes retcon things.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Thank you for clearing that up Sto_Vo_Kor. OK, so I was wrong for the most part. But Tramp, you too, were wrong about Hasbro retconning things.

Dont mention it.......just dont let things get you to worked up.......its not worth it.

[Damolisher]

Yeah, I mean, once again, the tosser can't even admit he's partially wrong. he seems to think everyone else is below him, and that anyone who argues with him is never right. It's annoying.

[Tramp]

Secondly, It isn't just me that has called them retcons. Even the much lauded Teletraan-1 Wiki, refers to them as official retcons. Do you honestly believe that Hasbro does not have the authority to change its own continuities if they so choose to do so? Do you think they can't authorize writers to do so?

Aren't you the one who keeps telling everyone that wikis aren't reliable sources? Or is it suddenly a reliable source because you say it is?

Tosser.

No, I don't consider Wikis reliable as a rule, because the information can be changed too easily. You broguth up that they aren't called retcons, and that I am the only person saying that they are. My point in bringing it up is to show you that no, I am not the only person stating that these are retcons. That, it is generally accepted that these are indeed retcons, and that officially, these are retcons.

[Tramp]

Yeah, I mean, once again, the tosser can't even admit he's partially wrong. he seems to think everyone else is below him, and that anyone who argues with him is never right. It's annoying.

No, Damolisher, I have never said that. Let me ask you this, Damolisher, have you done any actual research, or are you simply stating what you believe personally? I look up the information I post. I do research to verify the information whenever possible. I look up sources and cite them whenever possible. I've noticed you rarely do. IF I find information from a Wiki like Teletraan-1, I will cross-reference it with other sources to verify it. I certainly don't rely on it alone.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Yeah, I mean, once again, the tosser can't even admit he's partially wrong. he seems to think everyone else is below him, and that anyone who argues with him is never right. It's annoying.

I know it is but all your do is getting your self workrd up and for what????It's not doing you any good and it's not like your going to get trew to him.

And the Same go's for you Tramp, I've seen you go on and on and get worked up time and time again and it's not doing you any good at all......as a matter of fact it got you banded once, and at the rate this is going it will happen again!!!!Is that what you want????????What will that acomplish????You guys have differen point's of views and thats it.Leave it allready.

[OptimusN1701]

The only reason that the Universe storyline was made was to help sell a bunch of repainted toys from the multiple lines at once. then they figured, hey lets make more profit, how about a comic to explain all of this BS. This way we can explain all these repaints, even Beast Machines Primal Prime, an earlier attempt to make more cash. then we can just say we are retconning everything so we get away scott free, eventhough we have completely screwed over many loyal fans and confused many more by destroying 20 years of loved fiction.

this is the rhyme and the reason behind all of it, Hasbro clearly values profit margins far above their products' fans.

How many Armada and Energon toys have been recolored as Cybertron or even movie toys?
No connection, only profits

This makes this so-called canon in the ultimate guide and Universe a steaming load

[Tramp]

The story line was written before the toys so that it could be printed and released with them. In fact, the Universe story line started with 3H for Botcon. Also, all companies value profit. If they didn't, they wouldn't be in business. profit motivates a company to make a better product. Profit motivates a writer to produce a better story even if it means retconning previous material. It's called "enlightened self-interest". The better the product, the better the story, the better the show, the more people will buy it, and thus, the more profit for the company. Whether we individually agree with their decisions or not is pretty irrelevant except through our wallets. Thast does not make sources like the Universe materials, or the Ultimate Guide a load, especially since it was respected writers like Simon Furman, Bob Forward, Flint Dille, Brad Mick, and others, who did the actual work of writing these materials and getting them approved by Hasbro so that we fans can read and collect them.

[Leonardo]

I think Tramp's right that Hasbro does monitor the stories, etc. to keep them within some guidelines. Just recently Hasbro vetoed a cover for IDW's Optimus Prime spotlight and obviously the company doesn't allow writers to do whatever they want with the characters (otherwise we could end up with Optimus Prime turning permanently evil, which I doubt Hasbro would endorse). Therefore, there must be some governance on Hasbro's part.*

However, just because Japanese continuities are being worked into US continuities doesn't mean those US continuities are worked into Japanese continuities. They can be but it's not a given.

Also, Beats Wars doesn't necessarily change or retcon anything in the G1 cartoon because Beast Wars was a hybrid of cartoon and comic continuities. I think it's open to interpretation.

*Slightly off-topic but somewhat related, I read once that in 2005 Hasbro only granted IDW a license to do their revamped G1 series if IDW agreed to publish this year's movie material. I also read that Hasbro only allowed DW to do their G1 if DW put out some Armada (and presumably Energon) books, too. Does anyone have confirmation of this?

[Tramp]

I think Tramp's right that Hasbro does monitor the stories, etc. to keep them within some guidelines. Just recently Hasbro vetoed a cover for IDW's Optimus Prime spotlight and obviously the company doesn't allow writers to do whatever they want with the characters (otherwise we could end up with Optimus Prime turning permanently evil, which I doubt Hasbro would endorse). Therefore, there must be some governance on Hasbro's part.*

However, just because Japanese continuities are being worked into US continuities doesn't mean those US continuities are worked into Japanese continuities. They can be but it's not a given.

Also, Beats Wars doesn't necessarily change or retcon anything in the G1 cartoon because Beast Wars was a hybrid of cartoon and comic continuities. I think it's open to interpretation.

*Slightly off-topic but somewhat related, I read once that in 2005 Hasbro only granted IDW a license to do their revamped G1 series if IDW agreed to publish this year's movie material. I also read that Hasbro only allowed DW to do their G1 if DW put out some Armada (and presumably Energon) books, too. Does anyone have confirmation of this?

I have never heard anything regarding either of those rumors. As for Beast Wars retconning things and being merged with the G1 cartoon, that has been confirmed by the Ultimate Guide as well as other sources including quotes by Bob Forward and Hasbro. From what I understand, even the Dreamwave material was originally intended to fit between seasons 2 and 3 if the cartoon continuity, with the previously included retcons, though I can't confirm that. It is definately meant to connect to Beast Wars, as evident with the appearance BW Megatron and Dinobot in the beginning of MtMtE #1 and end of MtMtE #8. On top of that, the Wreckers story line from BotCon was definately meant to retcon the G1 cartoon continuity. It specifically takes place in that continuity and links it directly to Beast Wars.

[Leonardo]

I've never read any comments from Hasbro or Forward regarding Beast Wars retconning the G1 cartoon but if you can find them I'll gladly accept them.

As for the Wreckers comics, that wouldn't retcon the G1 cartoon, surely? Wouldn't just create another G1 comic continuity that mirrors the G1 cartoon? Similarly, wouldn't the Wreckers comic linking to Beast Wars just create a new BW comic continuity?

[OptimusN1701]

The key here is that none of the Universe stuff was necessary. It was all a crappy ploy to sell more of the same damn toys, but in different colors. "hey now there's a yellow RID Prime, i better buy that." They could have just reissued the damn things, most of them looked better in the original colors. But no, they decided to take 20 years of history and bend it over and make it take it so that they could make even more cash. Hell, I woulda bought a reissue of Depthcharge, but not in the colors they put it in. They do the same **** w/ Magnus, God forbid they make a new mold once and a while instead of just repainting Prime white. I surprised they made a G1 titanium series one, but I digress

Anyway, Universe is just avaricious crap, and the horrid retconning was done only so they could sell more toys

[Tramp]

I've never read any comments from Hasbro or Forward regarding Beast Wars retconning the G1 cartoon but if you can find them I'll gladly accept them.

As for the Wreckers comics, that wouldn't retcon the G1 cartoon, surely? Wouldn't just create another G1 comic continuity that mirrors the G1 cartoon? Similarly, wouldn't the Wreckers comic linking to Beast Wars just create a new BW comic continuity?

No, the Wreckers story line is specifically set in G1 cartoon continuity, and Beast Wars was meant to connect to the cartoon continuity as well. The Ultimate Guide confirms these retcons with Primus' and Unicron's histories and their multiversal existances as established in Wreckers, and Universe, including the most recent TFCC stories, set connecting the AEC line that ties it into the greater multiverse. All of the material over the past few years, particularly those published and produced in the mid 1990s through today, have tied together everything into a greater multiverse where Primus is the one true creator of the Transformers and exists in all continuities simultaneously while Unicron travels between realities. The whole point was to give a single origin for the Transformers and create a multiversal story arc which merged all of the various continuities into a single greater interconnected multiverse.

[Tramp]

The key here is that none of the Universe stuff was necessary. It was all a crappy ploy to sell more of the same damn toys, but in different colors. "hey now there's a yellow RID Prime, i better buy that." They could have just reissued the damn things, most of them looked better in the original colors. But no, they decided to take 20 years of history and bend it over and make it take it so that they could make even more cash. Hell, I woulda bought a reissue of Depthcharge, but not in the colors they put it in. They do the same **** w/ Magnus, God forbid they make a new mold once and a while instead of just repainting Prime white. I surprised they made a G1 titanium series one, but I digress

Anyway, Universe is just avaricious crap, and the horrid retconning was done only so they could sell more toys

Whether it was necessary or not isn't the point. Why shouldn't they reuse molds. Those things are expensive. The more use they get, the better and the less expensive the toys. As for magnus, he was always a repainted Prime even back in G1. The original Ultra Mangus was a redecoed Diaclone Powered Convoy. He always was a white Prime with a different trailer, one that became armor. Why should he have a completely different mold? It makes perfect sense for him to be a repainted Prime. The only thing he needs is a trailer that becomes armor. Are you saying that HAsbro shouldn't try to maximize profits? Whether we like it or not, what is done is done. Personally, I have no problem with the retcons, while you apparently don't like them, which is fine. To each his own. It doesn't invalidate the retcons or the sources they appear in though. Secondly, they didn't take 20+ years of material and bend it over. They simply retconned the origins of the Transformers as a race, and that of Cybetron so that all continuities share a single common origin. Thus creating divergent timelines and realities which originate from a single point of origin. I think that is far better than having a whole bunch of conflicting origin stories for essentially the same characters. A single origin story simply works much better.

[OptimusN1701]

I've never read any comments from Hasbro or Forward regarding Beast Wars retconning the G1 cartoon but if you can find them I'll gladly accept them.

As for the Wreckers comics, that wouldn't retcon the G1 cartoon, surely? Wouldn't just create another G1 comic continuity that mirrors the G1 cartoon? Similarly, wouldn't the Wreckers comic linking to Beast Wars just create a new BW comic continuity?

No, the Wreckers story line is specifically set in G1 cartoon continuity, and Beast Wars was meant to connect to the cartoon continuity as well. The Ultimate Guide confirms these retcons with Primus' and Unicron's histories and their multiversal existances as established in Wreckers, and Universe, including the most recent TFCC stories, set connecting the AEC line that ties it into the greater multiverse. All of the material over the past few years, particularly those published and produced in the mid 1990s through today, have tied together everything into a greater multiverse where Primus is the one true creator of the Transformers and exists in all continuities simultaneously while Unicron travels between realities. The whole point was to give a single origin for the Transformers and create a multiversal story arc which merged all of the various continuities into a single greater interconnected multiverse.

But there was no need for a multiverse. RID has nothing to do with the Unicron trilogy, which has nothing to do with G1/BW/BM the only correlation between any two continuities is Beast Wars with the Marvel comics. you do not need Primus at the center of everything. It only helps expalin away remaking Optimus Prime every two or three years. It amounts to a lack of originality in some respects.

[Tramp]

I've never read any comments from Hasbro or Forward regarding Beast Wars retconning the G1 cartoon but if you can find them I'll gladly accept them.

As for the Wreckers comics, that wouldn't retcon the G1 cartoon, surely? Wouldn't just create another G1 comic continuity that mirrors the G1 cartoon? Similarly, wouldn't the Wreckers comic linking to Beast Wars just create a new BW comic continuity?

No, the Wreckers story line is specifically set in G1 cartoon continuity, and Beast Wars was meant to connect to the cartoon continuity as well. The Ultimate Guide confirms these retcons with Primus' and Unicron's histories and their multiversal existances as established in Wreckers, and Universe, including the most recent TFCC stories, set connecting the AEC line that ties it into the greater multiverse. All of the material over the past few years, particularly those published and produced in the mid 1990s through today, have tied together everything into a greater multiverse where Primus is the one true creator of the Transformers and exists in all continuities simultaneously while Unicron travels between realities. The whole point was to give a single origin for the Transformers and create a multiversal story arc which merged all of the various continuities into a single greater interconnected multiverse.

But there was no need for a multiverse. RID has nothing to do with the Unicron trilogy, which has nothing to do with G1/BW/BM the only correlation between any two continuities is Beast Wars with the Marvel comics. you do not need Primus at the center of everything. It only helps expalin away remaking Optimus Prime every two or three years. It amounts to a lack of originality in some respects.

I disagree. There was a need for it. Too many conflicting origin stories confuses people. It is far better to have a single set origin from which all the divergent stories and continuities can branch off from, than myriad conflicting origins for essentially (and sometimes literally) the same characters.

Think about it this way. Which is simpler and esier to grasp: saying "well, in this reality, the Transformers were created by so and so, while in this other reality, they were created by this guy", or saying, "The Transfoermers were created by Primus, Lord of Light, and guardian of Order accross the multiverse, in order to defend againstr the Chaos bringer Unicorn, who seeks to consume and destroy all of creation".

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I've never read any comments from Hasbro or Forward regarding Beast Wars retconning the G1 cartoon but if you can find them I'll gladly accept them.

As for the Wreckers comics, that wouldn't retcon the G1 cartoon, surely? Wouldn't just create another G1 comic continuity that mirrors the G1 cartoon? Similarly, wouldn't the Wreckers comic linking to Beast Wars just create a new BW comic continuity?

No, the Wreckers story line is specifically set in G1 cartoon continuity, and Beast Wars was meant to connect to the cartoon continuity as well. The Ultimate Guide confirms these retcons with Primus' and Unicron's histories and their multiversal existances as established in Wreckers, and Universe, including the most recent TFCC stories, set connecting the AEC line that ties it into the greater multiverse. All of the material over the past few years, particularly those published and produced in the mid 1990s through today, have tied together everything into a greater multiverse where Primus is the one true creator of the Transformers and exists in all continuities simultaneously while Unicron travels between realities. The whole point was to give a single origin for the Transformers and create a multiversal story arc which merged all of the various continuities into a single greater interconnected multiverse.

But there was no need for a multiverse. RID has nothing to do with the Unicron trilogy, which has nothing to do with G1/BW/BM the only correlation between any two continuities is Beast Wars with the Marvel comics. you do not need Primus at the center of everything. It only helps expalin away remaking Optimus Prime every two or three years. It amounts to a lack of originality in some respects.

I disagree. There was a need for it. Too many conflicting origin stories confuses people. It is far better to have a single set origin from which all the divergent stories and continuities can branch off from, than myriad conflicting origins for essentially (and sometimes literally) the same characters.

I agree with you for the need...I just dont think thats why they did it.

[Primus C-00]

Four moar pages?

Where the hell did they come from?

Guess I'll have to read and catch up.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Four moar pages?

Where the hell did they come from?

Guess I'll have to read and catch up.

I can sum it up for you if you like

[OptimusN1701]

I've never read any comments from Hasbro or Forward regarding Beast Wars retconning the G1 cartoon but if you can find them I'll gladly accept them.

As for the Wreckers comics, that wouldn't retcon the G1 cartoon, surely? Wouldn't just create another G1 comic continuity that mirrors the G1 cartoon? Similarly, wouldn't the Wreckers comic linking to Beast Wars just create a new BW comic continuity?

No, the Wreckers story line is specifically set in G1 cartoon continuity, and Beast Wars was meant to connect to the cartoon continuity as well. The Ultimate Guide confirms these retcons with Primus' and Unicron's histories and their multiversal existances as established in Wreckers, and Universe, including the most recent TFCC stories, set connecting the AEC line that ties it into the greater multiverse. All of the material over the past few years, particularly those published and produced in the mid 1990s through today, have tied together everything into a greater multiverse where Primus is the one true creator of the Transformers and exists in all continuities simultaneously while Unicron travels between realities. The whole point was to give a single origin for the Transformers and create a multiversal story arc which merged all of the various continuities into a single greater interconnected multiverse.

But there was no need for a multiverse. RID has nothing to do with the Unicron trilogy, which has nothing to do with G1/BW/BM the only correlation between any two continuities is Beast Wars with the Marvel comics. you do not need Primus at the center of everything. It only helps expalin away remaking Optimus Prime every two or three years. It amounts to a lack of originality in some respects.

I disagree. There was a need for it. Too many conflicting origin stories confuses people. It is far better to have a single set origin from which all the divergent stories and continuities can branch off from, than myriad conflicting origins for essentially (and sometimes literally) the same characters.

Think about it this way. Which is simpler and esier to grasp: saying "well, in this reality, the Transformers were created by so and so, while in this other reality, they were created by this guy", or saying, "The Transfoermers were created by Primus, Lord of Light, and guardian of Order accross the multiverse, in order to defend againstr the Chaos bringer Unicorn, who seeks to consume and destroy all of creation".

So you advocate dumbing things down for the masses huh?

The entire plots and characters are different(save for some of the names) in every continuity. There is nothing wrong w/ having the Quints build them in the G1 storyline, it makes it different. And Primus had absolutely nothing to do w/ RID, so there's no need to assume he needs to be in that universe as well. Putting him in there by default is extr and unnecessary

[Tramp]

So you advocate dumbing things down for the masses huh?

The entire plots and characters are different(save for soem of the names) in every continuity. There is nothing wrong w/ having the Quints build them in the G1 storyline, it makes it different. And Primus had absolutely nothing to do w/ RID, so there's no need to assume he needs to be in that universe as well. Putting him in there by default is extr and unnecessary

It isn't dumbing things down for the masses. It is called simplifying things and making less convoluted. Haven't you ever heard of the KISS rule? The KISS rule "Keep It Simple Stupid." In other words don't overly complicate things with multiple convoluted origin stories and backgrounds when a single origin works much better and creates less confusion.

[OptimusN1701]

So you advocate dumbing things down for the masses huh?

The entire plots and characters are different(save for soem of the names) in every continuity. There is nothing wrong w/ having the Quints build them in the G1 storyline, it makes it different. And Primus had absolutely nothing to do w/ RID, so there's no need to assume he needs to be in that universe as well. Putting him in there by default is extr and unnecessary

It isn't dumbing things down for the masses. It is called simplifying things and making less convoluted. Haven't you ever heard of the KISS rule? The KISS rule "Keep It Simple Stupid." In other words don't overly complicate things with multiple convoluted origin stories and backgrounds when a single origin works much better and creates less confusion.

If Hasbro wanted to keep it simple they would have taken time to develop more original characters. They keep reusing the old names to push product, nothing more. The Transformers origin in G1 did not have to be retconned just because Hasbro couldn't come up with new character ideas. Maybe they should have adapted more from the Japanese market. They at least tried to keep things original. Hasbro could have released Star Saber over here and had him star in a series. No retconning needed there

[Tramp]

So you advocate dumbing things down for the masses huh?

The entire plots and characters are different(save for soem of the names) in every continuity. There is nothing wrong w/ having the Quints build them in the G1 storyline, it makes it different. And Primus had absolutely nothing to do w/ RID, so there's no need to assume he needs to be in that universe as well. Putting him in there by default is extr and unnecessary

It isn't dumbing things down for the masses. It is called simplifying things and making less convoluted. Haven't you ever heard of the KISS rule? The KISS rule "Keep It Simple Stupid." In other words don't overly complicate things with multiple convoluted origin stories and backgrounds when a single origin works much better and creates less confusion.

If Hasbro wanted to keep it simple they would have taken time to develop more original characters. They keep reusing the old names to push product, nothing more. The Transformers origin in G1 did not have to be retconned just because Hasbro couldn't come up with new character ideas. Maybe they should have adapted more from the Japanese market. They at least tried to keep things original. Hasbro could have released Star Saber over here and had him star in a series. No retconning needed there

I'm not talking about individual characters. I'm talking about the Transformers race collectively and their planet. It makes more sense to have the Transformers and Cybertron to have a single set origin story from which all continuities branch off from, than a whole bunch of conflicting origin stories for each continuity. Too many origin stories creates unecessary confusion for the uninitiated, and when you are a company trying to bring in new fans, the unecessary confusion, is a bad thing. Secondly, they have to re-use names. Otherwise, they lose the tradmarks for thse names. That means that if they want to reissue a collectors' piece of an older character, they would have to give it a diffeent name. This is what happened to Hot Rod, ,an why all new toys of that character are called "Rodimus". They lost the tradmark from lack of use.

[Cyber Bishop]

Why am I getting complaints about you again Tramp?

[Insurgent]

Well, all I know about BW is it was originally set as a seperate continuity. The writers gave the planet 2 moons, with the intent of destroying one if they decided to make it Earth. As they progressed through series 1, they began to go through the G1 stuff for references, and decided to incorperate this in.

I see no retconning of G1 from BW. The writers have stated (don't ask me for a reference, I don't have one) that it is a combination of the toon and the comics for it's history (as proven by the fact they hinted that the Vok were the Swarm from G2. (Personally, I don't like this and as no evidence was given in the show, I choose to blank this out from BW canon and view them as simply an alien species that wanted to conduct experiments on a planet.) That, Primus, Ark and Nemesis names were the only things from the comics. But it is clearly from the toon as the appearance of the Ark, Nemesis and Starscream's demise all corospond to the toon versions.

It isn't dumbing things down for the masses. It is called simplifying things and making less convoluted.

This is also called dumbing down for the masses. They can't follow six different origins, so we'll whack them with one origin that destroys everything we have written for the past 20 years. It's pathetic.

How hard is it to follow different origins for each continuity? Not that much when people can keep origins from all of these other shows straight in their heads as well. I see no difference.