The Energon Pub

Tiby wrote:My point exactly. There is a clear difference.

I feel there is too, and you caught what I meant, so thanks But I wont get in the way of the conversation and I would rather there be a conversation rather than none. I do find it a bit odd that we tart to throw in things like Highbrow though since he's as much a retool of Scourge as First Aid is or SkyDive, where in both cases the main thing in common is the same basic skeleton which gives yo an identical transformation. CW First Aid, Sky Dive, Firefly and Offroad all have identical transformations, does that make them all retools of eachother? Its gets tricky. CW really blurred the lines Robin Thick style so I felt more confident (and was more impressed) with retools based on older molds because the idea is that you have an established design and mold and they try to rework it into a new design. We clearly know who the chicken and who the egg are.

Anyways, the deal with the CW line and TR is that unlike the retools I mention in the list, the reuse of molds in these newer lines just give you more product but not better product.

Fort Max is a great example and here is why he doesnt get a mention on this list: the retooling just exists to give us a new toy but not a great one. There is no improvement over the Metroplex mold, and it doesnt feel like its his own. Especially since there are 2 significant leftover bits from Metroplex that serve no use: the legs opening and that arm connector gimmick. Instead of feeling like Fort Max, he feels like a Metroplex retool. You dont feel that about Sandstorm. And I will admit, you dont feel that too much about Power Master Prime, aside from the reuse of guns which is odd.

Oh about Sanstorm's heasculpt, that was an itneresting discussion:

Emerje wrote:
You really think this...



...plus this...



...equel this?

Yes 100%, I think its a perfect merger. The toon version didnt have the Prime "ears" and that makes sense. They instead went with the idea that his head is that black square you see on the toy. The toy itself has a shape to his head so it makes sense that they would base the shape of his head for the Neo G1 version on the protruding headsculpt of the toy while not giving him the "ears" and giving him a mouth to still homage his look on the show. Whether one thinks it works is pureply subjective but it is undeniable that both looks are distinctly homaged in that headsculpt. This discussion gave me a whole new way to appreciate this awesome toy.

Zeedust wrote:What does UFO even mean in this context?

It means he finds Killer Punch random as ****.

Deathsanras wrote:The Masterpiece Starscream mold also deserves credit for more the recent Conehead remold.

I think it was a really cheap way to give us the coneheads sice now you are stuck with all that extra kibble in the back when his head is supposed to be the actual conehead. I really feel the classics mold handled it better, they have 0 extraneous kibble in robot mode, its really cool.

King Kuuga wrote:

Andrius wrote:(Well, technically Optimus gets a new face sculpt, so that's about as minor a retool as you'll find.)

Actually the most minor retool you could find would be something like enlarging a tab so it fits its socket better, or switching the gearing in CW Optimus's hips.

I am pretty sure they were talking purely about aesthetic changes, changes to the mold that affect the look of the figure rather than its functionality.

How about Blurr/Drift or Drift/Blurr whoever should be the first?

paul053 wrote:How about Blurr/Drift or Drift/Blurr whoever should be the first?

That was only a new head (albeit a very lovely-looking new head) and some guns. Not exactly impressive.

I'd actually argue it's a really bad example of a retool because it doesn't fit Blurr at all.

paul053 wrote:How about Blurr/Drift or Drift/Blurr whoever should be the first?

Why wouldnt Drift be first?

william-james88 wrote:

paul053 wrote:How about Blurr/Drift or Drift/Blurr whoever should be the first?

Why wouldnt Drift be first?

We don't know who was designed first, or if they were designed at the same time: we only know the first one released (Drift). Even then, things sometimes don't go as planned:

- Alt./BT Smokescreen and Silverstreak had their releases switched for a greater impact for the line's debut.
- Gen. Wheeljack is stated to be the original, with Tracks as the retool, yet the latter was released first, in a different line even.

I find it highly dubious that Blurr was designed first; he's wearing a body that he never had and doesn't match up with any body he had in the slightest, and the body matches up specifically with Drift's design in AHM a few years prior.



The big difference here is that Bluestreak and Smokescreen are recolours of each other and the body for Wheeljack and Tracks fits them both extremely well with just a slight alteration of proportions, weapons and parts movement. They have very obvious clean-cut similarities in their body structures and designs. For Blurr to be designed first you'd have to be arguing that they decided to do a completely new earth-mode design for him - which, fair enough, was the norm in Generations 2011; just look at Scourge and Straxus. But not only that it's a new earth-mode design for him, but one that didn't look like him at all, and just so happened to look exactly like a design introduced a couple years back, completely out of coincidence, and they figured "oh hey we can turn him into this guy can't we". And just to top it all off they designed Blurr with the head specifically belonging to the same continuity and story Drift's design was introduced in. Reaaaaaaaaally not buying it; while we don't exactly have official confirmation, it's pretty obvious which one was designed first.

Uhm, I was talking about these two:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:Uhm, I was talking about these two:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:We don't know who was designed first, or if they were designed at the same time: we only know the first one released (Drift).

Then where did "The big difference here is that Bluestreak and Smokescreen are recolours of each other" come from?

I do see your point on Drift being the main inspiration, with Blurr "tacked on" afterwards as it were. Still, that counts as "at the same time" for me, as it was "on paper" as far as I know.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:Then where did "The big difference here is that Bluestreak and Smokescreen are recolours of each other" come from?

Because whichever one was designed first it'd make sense. If you're designing Bluestreak, regardless of deco; you've pretty much already designed Prowl and Smokescreen as well and vice versa. This is in contrast to Blurr and Drift bearing no similarities besides being autobots that turn into cars.

Kurona wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:Then where did "The big difference here is that Bluestreak and Smokescreen are recolours of each other" come from?

Because whichever one was designed first it'd make sense. If you're designing Bluestreak, regardless of deco; you've pretty much already designed Prowl and Smokescreen as well and vice versa.

But they aren't just a repaint of each other, there are considerable differences in the car parts since one's a consumer model and the other is a rally car with all the special parts to look the part, plus different heads. And Prowl was an entirely different car and figure. This is considerably different from their original incarnations which had minor mold changes to them.

That aside, the point was about release order and I'm going to argue that both were designed at the same time. TFwiki is pretty inconsistent on this, stating in the Bluestreak article that "the second Subaru Impreza toy released in the Alternators line was actually the first to be developed", but in the Alternators article wrote "the retool of Smokescreen became Bluestreak". However, the Alternators article also says "Hasbro and Takara decided very early on that redecos/retools were necessary even more than they were in other lines, thus retools of the first three sculpts were already available by the time the last of the "original six" sculpts came out" which to me indicates that they planned the first and second uses of each mold as part of the design process rather than as afterthoughts like many repaints and retools.

Emerje

Speaking of TF Wiki, they are pretty clear on who the original for the Drift/Blurr toy is:

Drift's mold was retooled into Generations Blurr and was redecoed, with Blurr's pistols also being included, into Shattered Glass Drift.

And hat makes sense since the toy's robot mode looks very much like the (at the time) new Drift character and Blur just looks like an opportunity to have another toy on the shelf. It looks nothing like Blurr aside from the headsculpt.

PS: I really hate how he's called "G1" Drift. To me, G1 just means the first time Transformers were around in pop culture, it's first itiration (which itself has a few factes like toys, show and comic) but when we call a character that was created after the entire unicron trilogy "G1", it feels kinda wierd.

But anyways, I dont see these as cool retools, and they feel closer to the idea of a redeco since the only thing changed is the head to seal the deal that this is a new character, like what fun pub has always been doing. Those heads werent part of the initial mold most of the time so most of those funpub toys are just redecos with new heads and while this case with Blurr and Drift may be different the result is the same, just a redeco with a new head. Its not really awe inspiring and doesnt help with the repurposing of the mold as much as, say, the coneheads.

william-james88 wrote:PS: I really hate how he's called "G1" Drift. To me, G1 just means the first time Transformers were around in pop culture, it's first itiration (which itself has a few factes like toys, show and comic) but when we call a character that was created after the entire unicron trilogy "G1", it feels kinda wierd.

It is weird, but G1 refers to the story universe in which most TF fiction takes place, which has outlasted the toyline from the 80s. As a character in IDW's comics about the G1 Transformers, he is a G1 character. I get the a similar (though less animistic) reaction when I look at Windblade's page and see the "G1" there.

william-james88 wrote:But anyways, I dont see these as cool retools, and they feel closer to the idea of a redeco since the only thing changed is the head to seal the deal that this is a new character, like what fun pub has always been doing. Those heads werent part of the initial mold most of the time so most of those funpub toys are just redecos with new heads and while this case with Blurr and Drift may be different the result is the same, just a redeco with a new head. Its not really awe inspiring and doesnt help with the repurposing of the mold as much as, say, the coneheads.

A retool is a retool. Altering the size of a peg hole is a retool. Changing Optimus's hip joints was a retool. Adding or removing rubsign indents to the G1 toys was a retool. Any alteration to the mold, large or small, is a retool. A new head was the most extensive retool many toys ever get. Just because it's only the head and not more of the figure's visible elements does not make it not a retool. Retool does not mean "overhaul".

King Kuuga wrote: I get the a similar (though less animistic) reaction when I look at Windblade's page and see the "G1" there.

Right, her too!

A retool is a retool. Altering the size of a peg hole is a retool. Changing Optimus's hip joints was a retool. Adding or removing rubsign indents to the G1 toys was a retool. Any alteration to the mold, large or small, is a retool. A new head was the most extensive retool many toys ever get. Just because it's only the head and not more of the figure's visible elements does not make it not a retool. Retool does not mean "overhaul".

I agree with all this, I was just talking in reference to them being seen as the "best" retools and why those with a new head werent covered.

I do have a question for you though, do the Botcon toys with new heads count as retools? Because the mold used remains intact, they didnt change anything. They just made a new mold for the head, independently of the body. So since there was no alteration to the mold does it still count as a retool?

The thing that personally gets me about Windblade and Victorion and such being classed as G1 is that while that's technically right... we don't really do the same thing for the G2 characters despite G2 being a part of G1. G2 Dreadwing and Smokescreen are from a G1 series, but their wiki articles list them as Dreadwing (G2) and Smokescreen (G2). The problem lies in the fact that unlike G2 there's not an established umbrella term for newly-introduced G1-family characters. Do you call them Windblade (Generations)? Well, no, because that just pertains to the toyline. Windblade (IDW)? Again, no, because that just pertains to the comics... so listing them as G1 is about as best as can be done.

Kurona wrote:The thing that personally gets me about Windblade and Victorion and such being classed as G1 is that while that's technically right... we don't really do the same thing for the G2 characters despite G2 being a part of G1. G2 Dreadwing and Smokescreen are from a G1 series, but their wiki articles list them as Dreadwing (G2) and Smokescreen (G2). The problem lies in the fact that unlike G2 there's not an established umbrella term for newly-introduced G1-family characters. Do you call them Windblade (Generations)? Well, no, because that just pertains to the toyline. Windblade (IDW)? Again, no, because that just pertains to the comics... so listing them as G1 is about as best as can be done.

The same could be said about Beast Wars toys and characters. They are also part of the G1 story.

william-james88 wrote:

Kurona wrote:The thing that personally gets me about Windblade and Victorion and such being classed as G1 is that while that's technically right... we don't really do the same thing for the G2 characters despite G2 being a part of G1. G2 Dreadwing and Smokescreen are from a G1 series, but their wiki articles list them as Dreadwing (G2) and Smokescreen (G2). The problem lies in the fact that unlike G2 there's not an established umbrella term for newly-introduced G1-family characters. Do you call them Windblade (Generations)? Well, no, because that just pertains to the toyline. Windblade (IDW)? Again, no, because that just pertains to the comics... so listing them as G1 is about as best as can be done.

The same could be said about Beast Wars toys and characters. They are also part of the G1 story.

Also very true. iirc some Beast Wars continuities are a bit more dubious about that than others, though. Correct me if I'm wrong - and I probably am here - but I think there's some beast wars stories that acted as if G1 - whether it was comics, cartoon, made up - wasn't a part of it. And then of course you have the really early micro-continuities which acted as if Optimus Primal and BW Megatron were literally Optimus Prime and G1 Megatron in new bodies.

But yeah, true.

william-james88 wrote:I agree with all this, I was just talking in reference to them being seen as the "best" retools and why those with a new head werent covered.

Silly me, I got so focused on a particular point I lost my view of the context in which the comment was made.

jilliam-wames44 wrote:I do have a question for you though, do the Botcon toys with new heads count as retools? Because the mold used remains intact, they didnt change anything. They just made a new mold for the head, independently of the body. So since there was no alteration to the mold does it still count as a retool?

Yes. A lot of the more visible retools don't resculpt the mold plates, but rather introduce a new mold plate with new parts and they either block off the duplicate parts on the original mold, recycle them once they cut the molds apart, or ideally, the replaced parts occupy a single sprue and they can just avoid running it. (I have no idea how common this is, it's just personal speculation) As far as Botcon heads go, they are simply put on one of these new mold plates. I got the impression that the Botcon parts were not produced in the same factory as the Hasbro molds, or not at the same time as the bodies, but I may be wrong on that.

This all kind of strays away from the literal definition of retooling a mold, but either the fandom or Hasbro or both has adopted this idea of replacement parts still constituting a retool.

william-james88 wrote:

Kurona wrote:The thing that personally gets me about Windblade and Victorion and such being classed as G1 is that while that's technically right... we don't really do the same thing for the G2 characters despite G2 being a part of G1. G2 Dreadwing and Smokescreen are from a G1 series, but their wiki articles list them as Dreadwing (G2) and Smokescreen (G2). The problem lies in the fact that unlike G2 there's not an established umbrella term for newly-introduced G1-family characters. Do you call them Windblade (Generations)? Well, no, because that just pertains to the toyline. Windblade (IDW)? Again, no, because that just pertains to the comics... so listing them as G1 is about as best as can be done.

The same could be said about Beast Wars toys and characters. They are also part of the G1 story.

I look at it this way.

(IDW) Comics wise, Drift, Windblade & Co. heavily interact with G1 characters. Their place in the scheme of things is essentially a carry on of the G1 universe.

Beast Wars however, has a connection to G1, but is primarily focused on their story and is more stand-alone.

Burn wrote:I look at it this way.

(IDW) Comics wise, Drift, Windblade & Co. heavily interact with G1 characters. Their place in the scheme of things is essentially a carry on of the G1 universe.

Beast Wars however, has a connection to G1, but is primarily focused on their story and is more stand-alone.

But what about Rattrap?

william-james88 wrote:

Burn wrote:I look at it this way.

(IDW) Comics wise, Drift, Windblade & Co. heavily interact with G1 characters. Their place in the scheme of things is essentially a carry on of the G1 universe.

Beast Wars however, has a connection to G1, but is primarily focused on their story and is more stand-alone.

But what about Rattrap?

Rattrap originally came from Beast Wars and starred most prominently there. This is much the same as transplanting Sky-Byte and Knock Out into IDW.

Kurona wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

Burn wrote:I look at it this way.

(IDW) Comics wise, Drift, Windblade & Co. heavily interact with G1 characters. Their place in the scheme of things is essentially a carry on of the G1 universe.

Beast Wars however, has a connection to G1, but is primarily focused on their story and is more stand-alone.

But what about Rattrap?

Rattrap originally came from Beast Wars and starred most prominently there. This is much the same as transplanting Sky-Byte and Knock Out into IDW.

To me, its all the same. IDW has a sandbox and they can mix whatever characters they want into this story. Putting G1 Optimus and RID Sky-Byte with BW Rattrap, making them all new IDW versions of the characters. Hence why Windblade to me is not G1 windblade but IDW windblade, since that is the origination of the character in fiction.

IDW is a primarily G1 universe that incorporates popular characters from other franchises and its own original characters.

But this is a thread about retools.

King Kuuga wrote:IDW is a primarily G1 universe that incorporates popular characters from other franchises and its own original characters.

But this is a thread about retools.

Ba, the conversation dried up by getting too technical (which is usually the case these days, it was unavoidable), I preffered random conversation to no conversation.

Personally, I call him IDW drift and I believe he was retooled into G1 Blurr

King Kuuga wrote:IDW is a primarily G1 universe that incorporates popular characters from other franchises and its own original characters.

But this is a thread about retools.

Let's call it "IDWverse" and be done with it.

Also, the recent flow of CW Leader Skywarps at my local TrU made me remember the retool from Gen Jetfire to the CW new Leader seeker mold.





Not a radical retool, but a significant one.
...Unless it's a pretool?