The Energon Pub

One thing I might like to point out at this time, & this includes virtually all japanese series:

While fans might accept Japanese follow-up series to G1, Hasbro does not...which is one of the reasons why none of them have been released in the US...& while they borrow a few characters here & there (botcon deathsarus, classics leo prime)...they do not consider anything from the japanese series conon. One point that can easily prove this is once again Powermaster Prime...particularly the reissue. He is not Ginrai, a TF who took his personality from a trucker he let be his mobile suit pilot....he was an upgraded G1 Prime...& hasbro still stuck with this story when they reissued him. There are also several differences between which characters weren't alive during & after season 3, such as Ironhide, who IIRC was still kicking in Headmasters.

Anyway, examples aside (& I'm sure there are many, many more, Transformers in the western world, is only considered canon if Hasbro says it is...& I would wager that they would not count those obscure manga as holding any sway towards any storyarc the US might point out....which leaves you with only your MTMTE #8, which Glyph has already debunked (& I did awhile back aside from that), & a bunch of vauge glances, embraces, & Wheelie.

Ask yourself this.


Does it REALLY matter? Really?

The Master Blaster wrote:Ask yourself this.


Does it REALLY matter? Really?

you wouldnt have thought so, but i think we've all become narrowminded on the subject!

The Master Blaster wrote:Ask yourself this.


Does it REALLY matter? Really?

QTF

This is how I see it: It doesn't explicitly say in the Bible of the definition of life, because it is assumed that you will automatically know when something's alive when you see it. Hence, no definition of "life."

Philosophically speaking, maybe the Tfs were able to reproduce sexually in the very beginning, but after having females gone for so long, and being used to using Protoforms as the new standard of creating new life, they probably stopped considering themselves a reproducing breed. Why consider your self a "male" when you have no "females" anymore? When all you ever see is males, and you have no females to compare yourself to, how long does it take to stop thinking of yourself as a gender? After a while the whole old way of thinking gets upended when you have to rely on new ways to perpetuate your species.

Think of this: If there was a virus that was lethal to the female half of the human species, but not to males, after a while there might be no more females if a cure is not found. As no cure was found, there are no females. But there are ways to still perpetuate the human species. Technology to grow organs outside of the human body exists. Granted its in the early stages, but it still exists. Give it enough time, and the tech will improve. As there is no equivelant to a human womb, other ways of creating humans will have to suffice. Animal wombs won't do, as there are major barriers to doing this. And even if not, you would still only have males. And only by cloning. Now if there were no females anywhere, what do you do? You can speed up technological advances in organ growing and cloning. Theoretically you could grow a bunch of organs, piece them together, and viola, you have a human. You would have a infant level human, but you would have a human. After a while, you could mass produce body parts to be pieced together factory style. The organs grow together, you can put programming into the brain via microchips so they don't have to spend much time learning, and there you go. After a while, if you manipulate genetics, and perfect everything, you don't even need to have females. You will not even need to grow up. There will be no genders as females don't exist anymore.

Glyph wrote:

Tramp wrote:No, there are no femmes in any of the Marvel run.

Examples:
Arcee's appearances in Marvel comics
Arcee's Marvel TF:Universe bio

Do you need me to provide scans of the actual pages before you'll drop your blinkered insistence on this?

Glyph, that bio is her movie bio, not a Marvelverse bio. She never apppears in the US Marvel run except in the four issue movie adaption. Her UK Marvel appearances have no connection to her movie adaption appearance. and they also give her a completely Earth-based history. Secondly, you forget about this passage:

Arcee is attracted to the Autobot, Hot Rod, who reciprocates the affection. But neither of them is willing to admit it openly.

Romantic attraction. Think about it.

Tramp wrote: And yes, the DW comics do contradict Marvel's origin for Arcee She was not built on Earth. Based upon the DW story line, she appears to have been sent by the Quntessans as a mole. This story arc has not run its course yet.

I'll come back to you when I've had chance to go back and read through the issues in question. But again, I'll reiterate: you're basing this on the implication of a single unfinished and never-going-to-be-finished storyline from a no-longer-licensed company who had a reputation for fanwankery based on the most tenuous of potential canon links? Show me something that actually says Arcee was created on Cybertron, as in your previous statement, and show me more than one because you have to outweigh the Marvel version!

(Side note: I don't actually care where Arcee was created. In my personal view, she's as much a Cybertronian as all the others. I just want you to actually support your claims and do what you claim to do in weighing all the available evidence. Your Dreamwave bias is already self-evident, as is your willingness to take completely unrelated media like obscure Japanese manga and believe it supports some claim about the original cartoon.)

Actually, from what IDW told me in responce to an email I sent them, the only thing keeping them from completing thsat story arch is the DW bankrupcy litigation. Once that is resolved I do expect them to finish that story line, as do a lot of fans.

Tramp wrote:I'm not leaving anything out. The line about Vector Sigma is covered under the use of Protoforms. Vector Sigma, the Matrix,,these are necessary to bring a protoform to life. What I am talking about is reproduction without the use of protoforms, as stated as possible by MtMtE #8. That is not picking and choosing.

Page 15, about Cybertronians in general, spends 10 sentences (205 words) discussing the process of creating Transformer life. Of those, 9 sentences (179 words) discuss the use of protoforms, and explicitly state that protoforms are the standard way of creating new Transformers. One sentence suggests (it does not explicitly state) that there may exist some other means of creating new Transformer life, and it may be inferred from the wording that this potential is resident within Transformers themselves. However, it also states that such potential is not currently available and Transformers do not know how to make it available. There has been an in-canon description of such untapped potential: the G2 comics, and its depiction of asexual cellular division.
Pages 6 (Cloning) and 50 (Sparks) are also based on the use of protoforms as the normal method of Transformer creation.

No, it isn't picking and choosing, secondly, I never denied that the current standard is the use of protoforms, did I. Yes, the current standard method is the use of protoforms, no question, but the untapped methods do exist, and have been hinted at in other sources. Yes, in the US Marvel G2 run they hint at the at asexual budding. In the Japanese runs and in the various US cartoons however, with the existance of females, romantic attachments and relationships, children and families, the evidence suggests the untapped potential is sexual reproduction.

You keep citing this passage from MTMTE #8 as evidence for your sexual reproduction theory, but it is nothing of the sort. It states categorically that the use of protoforms is the normal means of creating Transformer life (this is, of course, a Dreamwave retcon based on Beast Wars; the original G1 series required the use of the Matrix or Vector Sigma and did not include the concept of protoforms). 90% of the text and 100% of the supporting material talks about protoforms. You, instead, take the 10% of one article, infer something from it which is not stated, and declare that this must be the 'normal' way of reproducing for Transformers.

Yes, it is. as has been pointed out, the US Marvel run had not femmes in the regular arc the movie adaption was its own thing based on the cartoon, not part of the regular series. In that, particularly in G2, thye had the asexual rperoduction plot which resulted in the creation of the Swarm. The DW run and the other series differ from the Marvel runs in one key factor, females. There are ahandful in War Within, Arcee in the regular run, and the introduction of the original G1 femmes—Elita-1, Chromia, Moonracer, and Firestar. Marvel US did not have these characters. Marvel US did not have femmes at all in their regular run, and the UK run only had Arcee created on Earth as a publicity maneauver. You combiune that passage in MtMtE #8, with Arcee's bio discussing her romantoc entanglements with Hot Rod and Springer, as well as the cartoon inferrences in both the US and Japan, and the manga, the evidence adds up. No, by itself, it doen't infer what the "other potential" might be. Howevr, combined with other evidence from other sources it does.

If it were normal and simply repressed by scarcity of fembots, don't you think the guide would mention that? That would be a fairly fundamental thing to discuss, especially if it was going to be important to DW's ongoing series. Instead, it makes no mention of sexual reproduction whatsoever, despite being written for adult fans and therefore not having to skirt the issue as the cartoon might have if it talked about it, and supporting material such as Arcee's bio makes it clear that the Transformers don't even have a concept of male and female except by reference to offworld species.

No, it wouldn't necessarily. secondly, Arcee's bio doesn't say that they have no concept of male and female, so much that that there are so few that none of them had ever seen a female except for Kup. That is why he uses the other species reference. If there are so few females of your own species that you have never seen one in your life, then suddenly you meet one, you wouldn't know what to make of her either. You would need a reference of something you are more familiar with. That is what Kup did. He gave the others, who had never seen a femme, a point of reference. The only problem with that part of Arcee's bio, is that it is not entirely true, because there are femmes in War Within, I've counted at least three unnamed femmes, and many of the characters from the G1 regular series have been alive at least that long. Only a handful might not. Regardless, some time between War Within and the G1 regular series, possibly during the "Great Shutdown", something happened to the femmes.

Secondly, the comics are still written for kids. They are also targeting the fans, but kids are still the primary target.

Totality of evidence? Don't make me laugh.

Yes, totality of evidence. The combined evidence of DW, the US and Japanese cartons and manga, the later series such as Beats Wars and Beast Machines, and AEC. the children, romantic relationships, mariages, families, That totallity of evidence.

Tramp wrote:Biological does not mean organic... Transformers are life forms, they have a mechanical based biology.

As described above, I dispute the use of the modern scientific criteria for 'life form' in application to a 20-year-old kids' franchise which internally uses sapience as the criterion for life. I'm not going to give your blinkered insistence on it any further discussion.

You can "dispute it all you want. it still does not make it any less fact. The franchise, as exampled in the statement by Hi-Q, shows that they did follow at least one of the seven criteria, the ability to repsond to stimuli. Sentience is a part of that, though not all life ois sentient, Sapinece is a step up, but once again, by itself not an indicator if lofe becasue, theoretically, we may some day be able to create sentient, sapient robots given time. That would not make them alive however.

Tramp wrote:What I gave you was not scientific, it was the dictionary common useage.

Bub, don't argue languages with a qualified linguist, unless you're one too.

If you were a linguist, then you would have known your "definition" was wrong based on the dictionary. It is the Webster's Dictionary that disputes your definition, and that was written by Linguists.

Tramp wrote:your table is completrly in error. The inferences are there.

My table enumerated the inferences - look again. But I'm not about to take 'possible inference' as more weighty than 'explicit statement'. You apparently are.

Your table inumerated them wrong because it ignores the very purpose of gender and romance and courtship entirely. The evidence of genders, of males and females, the evidence of romantic relationships and courtship, the evidence of marriage is all evidence of seuxal reproductive capability. That is not "possible inferrence" That is solid evidence. Genders only serve one purpose in a species. reproduction Courtship serves only one purpose in a species, reproduction. The taking on of a life-mate, (marriage) serves only one purpose in a species reproduction. This is all solid evidence of sexual reproductive capability in Cybertronians.

Tramp wrote:Wheelie is treated as a child

You've never heard of the word 'metaphor'? 'Allegory'? Or even 'anthropomorphisation'?

While it is anthropopmorphism, it isn't a mtaphor or allegory. Wheelie is a child. His bio states he is young, his actions are that of a child—a wildboy— to be precise, he has been refered to as a child ("Why boy hit my nose?"), and treated like a child. He is a child. He is the equivalent of a 12-year-old. He is physically, and mentally a child.

Tramp wrote:[List of various romantic pairings in Transformer series, and mention of familial relationships in Japaneses series]

That is the comaprison. Which holds more weight? The possibility of TF sexual reproduction.

At this point, I think you've demonstrated conclusively that you have no concept of an objective weighing of evidence. I'm therefore entirely prepared to discount your opinion outright.

Everything I have posted has been completely objective. I have looked at every source, and discounted none. It is you and the other "nay sayers" who wish to eliminate any sources that contradict your narrow view because they fall outside of narrow realm of what you consider "Canon", when it is all part of the canon TF multiverse. To be truely objective, you lok at every shred of evidence, regardless of the source, be it US, UK, Japanese, cortoon, comic, manga. If it comes from an official source, it is vital to look at it. In that regard, the US, UK and Japanese material is all canon, and all relevant. That is being objective. Thrying to throw out a particular series or set of series because they are from the Japanese run is not being objective. That is truely picking and choosing.

Tramp wrote:

Bertrand Russell wrote:The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way.

But, in this case there is good evidnece both ways, but the evicdence in favor outweighs the evidence against.

I'd tried to provide a graceful way to end the argument with an agreement to disagree, but now...

... I am honestly lost for words.

You aren't going to end the debate because there will always be people who don't want the debate to end. And, there is nothing wrong with an on-going debate as long as it remains civil.

Nemesis Cyberplex wrote:One thing I might like to point out at this time, & this includes virtually all japanese series:

While fans might accept Japanese follow-up series to G1, Hasbro does not...which is one of the reasons why none of them have been released in the US...& while they borrow a few characters here & there (botcon deathsarus, classics leo prime)...they do not consider anything from the japanese series conon. One point that can easily prove this is once again Powermaster Prime...particularly the reissue. He is not Ginrai, a TF who took his personality from a trucker he let be his mobile suit pilot....he was an upgraded G1 Prime...& hasbro still stuck with this story when they reissued him. There are also several differences between which characters weren't alive during & after season 3, such as Ironhide, who IIRC was still kicking in Headmasters.

Anyway, examples aside (& I'm sure there are many, many more, Transformers in the western world, is only considered canon if Hasbro says it is...& I would wager that they would not count those obscure manga as holding any sway towards any storyarc the US might point out....which leaves you with only your MTMTE #8, which Glyph has already debunked (& I did awhile back aside from that), & a bunch of vauge glances, embraces, & Wheelie.

I have never heard any official announcement from Hasbro stating that the Japanese material is not con sidered any less official than the US mareial. So, unless you can provide such evidnece, that does not eliminate the japanese sources' relevance here, especially since this discussion is not about just one series or just one continuiity. It is about the entirety of official TF lore. Not just US and UK, not just Japanese. all of it. Every officially published print source, every officially produced cartoon or movie source. Remember, this site is not just a US or UK site. It has mambers from all, over the world including the Japanese. This site is devoted to the entirety of the TransFormers, not just the Hasbro end, or just the Takara end. Remember, that TransFormers is not just a US or UK line. It is also Japanese, where the toys orifginated. Therfore, every piece of officially produced material is completely relevant to this discussion, regardless of its nation of origin. If that means including the French making Starscream a woman in their continuity,(which I doubt), so be it.

In the Fanfic site I go to, the genderless robot idea seems to be the exception, not the norm. And there are a lot of Tf stories posted on there. Usually how they are described as procreating is by spark melding, and then putting the new spark into a protoform. There are other ways, but they aren't talked about so often.

Zombie Starscream wrote:

The Master Blaster wrote:Ask yourself this.


Does it REALLY matter? Really?

QTF

This is how I see it: It doesn't explicitly say in the Bible of the definition of life, because it is assumed that you will automatically know when something's alive when you see it. Hence, no definition of "life."

Philosophically speaking, maybe the Tfs were able to reproduce sexually in the very beginning, but after having females gone for so long, and being used to using Protoforms as the new standard of creating new life, they probably stopped considering themselves a reproducing breed. Why consider your self a "male" when you have no "females" anymore? When all you ever see is males, and you have no females to compare yourself to, how long does it take to stop thinking of yourself as a gender? After a while the whole old way of thinking gets upended when you have to rely on new ways to perpetuate your species.

Think of this: If there was a virus that was lethal to the female half of the human species, but not to males, after a while there might be no more females if a cure is not found. As no cure was found, there are no females. But there are ways to still perpetuate the human species. Technology to grow organs outside of the human body exists. Granted its in the early stages, but it still exists. Give it enough time, and the tech will improve. As there is no equivelant to a human womb, other ways of creating humans will have to suffice. Animal wombs won't do, as there are major barriers to doing this. And even if not, you would still only have males. And only by cloning. Now if there were no females anywhere, what do you do? You can speed up technological advances in organ growing and cloning. Theoretically you could grow a bunch of organs, piece them together, and viola, you have a human. You would have a infant level human, but you would have a human. After a while, you could mass produce body parts to be pieced together factory style. The organs grow together, you can put programming into the brain via microchips so they don't have to spend much time learning, and there you go. After a while, if you manipulate genetics, and perfect everything, you don't even need to have females. You will not even need to grow up. There will be no genders as females don't exist anymore.

Well, you wouldn't ned to "piece together" bodies, simply clone them fully in vats (SW: Atack of the Clones anyone?). Regardless, the rest is pretty spot on. You could also say if all of the females were taken by some outside entity, the same result would happen. We would need a different method, an artificial method. That is what appears to have hapopened with the TransFormers, at least according to what DW implies. All, or nearly all of the fems were taken, which pretty much removes point of reference, yet the remaining males still refer to themselves in the male pronoun. They're still male. They just have no concept of "female" until they meet one.

Zombie Starscream wrote:In the Fanfic site I go to, the genderless robot idea seems to be the exception, not the norm. And there are a lot of Tf stories posted on there. Usually how they are described as procreating is by spark melding, and then putting the new spark into a protoform. There are other ways, but they aren't talked about so often.

the only problem with "spark-melding" is that the spark cannot remain cohesive outside of a body. Without the spark the body dies, and without the body, the spark returns to the Allspark, to Primus.

How could you clone robots? Metal is non-living, it doesn't have any DNA to collect.

Tramp wrote:

Zombie Starscream wrote:In the Fanfic site I go to, the genderless robot idea seems to be the exception, not the norm. And there are a lot of Tf stories posted on there. Usually how they are described as procreating is by spark melding, and then putting the new spark into a protoform. There are other ways, but they aren't talked about so often.

the only problem with "spark-melding" is that the spark cannot remain cohesive outside of a body. Without the spark the body dies, and without the body, the spark returns to the Allspark, to Primus.

I agree. It would make more sense to have a body being built inside one of the pair, and the spark already in it. I imagine a femme's body would be adapted to this sort of thing, maybe some of her "guts" would just get displaced as it forms, but a male's wouldn't be able to do this. Just like in Earth females. Plus the young creature wouldn't reach a large size, as it would hinder some necessary movement and transformation. So it could even be tiny for this reason.

Just in case anybody says why a warfaring species would have pregnant females: They weren't always a warfaring species. Plus as an example the US Army has females in its ranks, and they are still capable of becoming pregnant even though they are soldiers.

Zombie Starscream wrote:

Tramp wrote:

Zombie Starscream wrote:In the Fanfic site I go to, the genderless robot idea seems to be the exception, not the norm. And there are a lot of Tf stories posted on there. Usually how they are described as procreating is by spark melding, and then putting the new spark into a protoform. There are other ways, but they aren't talked about so often.

the only problem with "spark-melding" is that the spark cannot remain cohesive outside of a body. Without the spark the body dies, and without the body, the spark returns to the Allspark, to Primus.

I agree. It would make more sense to have a body being built inside one of the pair, and the spark already in it. I imagine a femme's body would be adapted to this sort of thing, maybe some of her "guts" would just get displaced as it forms, but a male's wouldn't be able to do this. Just like in Earth females. Plus the young creature wouldn't reach a large size, as it would hinder some necessary movement and transformation. So it could even be tiny for this reason.

Just in case anybody says why a warfaring species would have pregnant females: They weren't always a warfaring species. Plus as an example the US Army has females in its ranks, and they are still capable of becoming pregnant even though they are soldiers.

Exactly. It would logically be the female who carries the young, (though Seahorses certainly are the exception), I agree any young would be very small, I would say probably about the size of a human, maybe even smaller. I would theorize that early growth would be relatively rapid though.

Plus doing this helps the species spread out. What happens if you lose Vector Sigma? Then your whole means of propagating your species is gone and thus you are doomed to extinction.

I imagine that the femme Tf would have to consume extra materials when she is gestating. I wonder how long her gestation would last?

Zombie Starscream wrote:Plus doing this helps the species spread out. What happens if you lose Vector Sigma? Then your whole means of propagating your species is gone and thus you are doomed to extinction.

I imagine that the femme Tf would have to consume extra materials when she is gestating. I wonder how long her gestation would last?

Honestly, I couldn't say. Given their composition, it could be very short. By the same token, it could be as long as ours or longer because of their size. I would theorize it is much shorter though. Probably no more than a few weeks.

Your bringingup of Vector Sigma or the Matrix, ofr that matter brings up others scenerios. What about in Cybertron (or its japanese counterpart Galaxy Force. Look at the Beast Planet. They don't have faxctories to build protoforms, nor a Matrix to create Sparks. They yhave the Planet Key, but still no means to create the protoforms. Thye would have had to have been born, and not built.

Shadowman wrote:How could you clone robots? Metal is non-living, it doesn't have any DNA to collect.

If they consist of nanites, those nanites might have a digital form of DNA. Or it could be in a form like special molecular chains of a substance ( an alien polymer, maybe) that has the capacity to store information in the same way that "organic" DNA does. But any other way, I wouldn't know. If a spark is able to be "cloned" that might be a second way, thats all I can think of. But it may or may not have a form of DNA in it.

Zombie Starscream wrote:

Shadowman wrote:How could you clone robots? Metal is non-living, it doesn't have any DNA to collect.

If they consist of nanites, those nanites might have a digital form of DNA. Or it could be in a form like special molecular chains of a substance ( an alien polymer, maybe) that has the capacity to store information in the same way that "organic" DNA does. But any other way, I wouldn't know. If a spark is able to be "cloned" that might be a second way, thats all I can think of. But it may or may not have a form of DNA in it.

To add to that, TF: More than Meets the Eye #8, repeatedly mentions that TransFormers have a genetic code, a genetic structure. Theefore, they do indeed have a DNA analog.

Though as they have the requirements to be alive, I wonder what they mean by "robots" whenever it gets mentioned? I know they are not Earth robots, so many of the things that our primitive (compared to them)robots are not able to do may not apply to them. So to an alien, what is considered a "robot?" Does the term "robot" only apply to primitive Earth robots, or can it apply as equally to an advanced form as well? If it does, "robot" could still apply to a mechanoid alien species that has the ability to reproduce autopietically ( I think thats the word) and would not invalidate this theory when the word gets mentioned in the 'toons or comics.

Zombie Starscream wrote:Though as they have the requirements to be alive, I wonder what they mean by "robots" whenever it gets mentioned? I know they are not Earth robots, so many of the things that our primitive (compared to them)robots are not able to do may not apply to them. So to an alien, what is considered a "robot?" Does the term "robot" only apply to primitive Earth robots, or can it apply as equally to an advanced form as well? If it does, "robot" could still apply to a mechanoid alien species that has the ability to reproduce autopietically ( I think thats the word) and would not invalidate this theory when the word gets mentioned in the 'toons or comics.

Actually, the wrord is autopoietically. You forgot an o. The word "robot" in this case refers to both Earth style primitve robots as well as robotic life. Both ar still robots, but one type is a life form, the other is not. If you wanted to be "politically correct" The proper term for mechanical life would be mechanoids.

Tramp...it's beyond obvious arguing with you anymore is pointless. If you have(had) kids, I'd feel sorry for them.

kid: "Daddy, here's my dolly. Her name's Sally....she's alive."

Tramp: "No she's not. No response to stimuli, no ability to reproduce of its own accord, no cellular growth...it dosen't fit the criteria for life....& More than meets the Cabbage Patch #8 says living dolls can reproduce...so you're wrong. It's just plastic. Now stop horsing around & go do your science homework."

Kid:

Tramp, until you can stop trying to pass MTMTE off as the be-all and end-all of Transformers, your arguments are lamer than a duck that trod on a landmine. And to whomever it was who said something about what would they do if they lost Vector Sigma, two words: Creation Matrix. Also, I was watching Heavy Metal war last night. I noticed this line from one of the medics. (I was half asleep, it was either Ratchet or Wheeljack.)

"Optimus, you're as good as the day you rolled off the ASSEMBLY LINE." And Tramp, come to think of it, Transformers isn't even real in the first place. Why the hell would you have to apply real life laws of science to animation? Time travel isn't possible, yet they do that. Robots from another planet is impossible, it does that. Trailers don't just disappear into thin air, Optimus' does that.
And for the last time, you're not the bloody world authority on Transformers, You don't dictate to us what canon is, we KNOW what canon is, and we're informing you that Japanese stories have nothing to do with us, and Starscream being female isn't canon, because it doesn't effect us. I'd love to know how it WOULD effect us, but he's clearly male.

And anyone saying Transformers don't have genders needs to watch that goddamn cartoon, because they have genders. But I think it's a case of Male/female ports, like on a computer, etc.

And Tramp, the reason this debate keeps going on is because you're being argued against by people WHO ACTUALLY KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT TRANSFORMERS!!!! All your evidence is "What if, what if, what if?" whilst ours is based on fact, and what we've been given, and you can't accept that, because when someone who, unlike you, knows what they're talking about, gives debunks your non-canon sources, which you keep claiming ARE canon, but clearly AREN'T, you revert back to using the same tired examples again, and again and again, from non-canonical sources from outside the mainstream media! Notice that NOBODY ELSE has had to resort to using "evidence" from outside of the States or the UK as to why Transformers AREN'T able to reproduce sexually?

Once again, dingus, G2 GIVES US A CLEAR DEPICTION OF ASEXUAL REPRODUCTION OF LIFE. And that doesn't involve cells, since Transformers are, once again, always have been, and always will be machines.

Is it true that they have colonies on other worlds, and live not just on Cybertron? I imagine thats how the Lithonians came about. They were isolated for a long time, cut off possibly, and developed into another "race." Or they could be the species the Quints made Cybertronians from, as they "borrowed" and "reformatted" a few Lithonians to create a whole new species to serve their purposes.

I guess to use a rough analagy, Decepticons would be "bred" to be more aggressive and dominant just like certain breeds of dogs are. This is good, as aggression and dominant personalities means more success in battle. But this is also bad at the same time, because if there should be no war, they still have this hyper-aggression and desire for dominance in them, and will tend to seek a way to fill those needs. Hence, the drive to dominate the Universe, and eliminate the Autobots. They have a need for war and conquest, so they go out and create war and battle. Plus they love to fight amongst themselves for postions of superiority and power.

With the Autobots, they were "bred" to protect and to be loyal. I imagine they would be used for more mundane duties, and so they would protect their alien owners from harm and would want to stay with them and not run off. They would live peaciably with their owners, as nobody would want a creature that was a danger to them.

And lastly, both Autobots and Decepticons could have cockpits/ seats/ whatever so that the alien owners could either use them (Autobots) for transport to and from places, or used as a transport or piloted/driven by alien soldiers (Decepticons) when needed.

Damolisher wrote:Tramp, until you can stop trying to pass MTMTE off as the be-all and end-all of Transformers, your arguments are lamer than a duck that trod on a landmine. And to whomever it was who said something about what would they do if they lost Vector Sigma, two words: Creation Matrix. Also, I was watching Heavy Metal war last night. I noticed this line from one of the medics. (I was half asleep, it was either Ratchet or Wheeljack.)

"Optimus, you're as good as the day you rolled off the ASSEMBLY LINE." And Tramp, come to think of it, Transformers isn't even real in the first place. Why the hell would you have to apply real life laws of science to animation? Time travel isn't possible, yet they do that. Robots from another planet is impossible, it does that. Trailers don't just disappear into thin air, Optimus' does that.
And for the last time, you're not the bloody world authority on Transformers, You don't dictate to us what canon is, we KNOW what canon is, and we're informing you that Japanese stories have nothing to do with us, and Starscream being female isn't canon, because it doesn't effect us. I'd love to know how it WOULD effect us, but he's clearly male.

And anyone saying Transformers don't have genders needs to watch that goddamn cartoon, because they have genders. But I think it's a case of Male/female ports, like on a computer, etc.

And Tramp, the reason this debate keeps going on is because you're being argued against by people WHO ACTUALLY KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT TRANSFORMERS!!!! All your evidence is "What if, what if, what if?" whilst ours is based on fact, and what we've been given, and you can't accept that, because when someone who, unlike you, knows what they're talking about, gives debunks your non-canon sources, which you keep claiming ARE canon, but clearly AREN'T, you revert back to using the same tired examples again, and again and again, from non-canonical sources from outside the mainstream media! Notice that NOBODY ELSE has had to resort to using "evidence" from outside of the States or the UK as to why Transformers AREN'T able to reproduce sexually?

Once again, dingus, G2 GIVES US A CLEAR DEPICTION OF ASEXUAL REPRODUCTION OF LIFE. And that doesn't involve cells, since Transformers are, once again, always have been, and always will be machines.

Damolisher, I know as much, if not more, about the TransFormers than you. I'm probably a lot older than you and have been watching and reading the TransFormers from the very beginning. What I don't know I look up. Secondly, you do not make the determination of what is and is not canon. Period. Everything officially licensed by both Hasbor and Takara is canon! On top of that, you are the one who brought up Starscream being female in France, which, by the way, I highly doubt. Regardless, It still doesn't matter. We are not just discussing US and UK G1. We are talking the entirety of TransFormers lore. Not US TF lore, Not UK TF lore, Not Japanese TF lore, Not French TF lore. All TransFormers lore. By that standard, Everything officially licensed and produced by both Hasbro and Takara is 100% relevant. Deal with it, accept it or leave the discussion. And, if you can't be civil, also please leave the discussion. This is suposed to be a friendy debate. IF you cannot do so, bow out now.

As for why do we need to apply real life laws to science fiction? somple. Without them, suspension of disbelif is destroyed. Any story, no matter how fantastic has to have some basis in reality. It has to follow at least most laws of physics. And those laws that are "stretched" have to be done in such a way as to appear believable. The laws governing what is and is not life is one law that is never "streched" All life, real, theoretical, or wholly imagined, is held up to those same seven criteria.

A little girl's doll in a "let's pretend" is not an issue.

Also, what I have presented is also based 100% on canon evidence. It is based upon fact, both real world and TF fact. It is based upon facts and observations of the various characters behaviors, and relationships in every single TF series and story. Not just one series, not just one continuity, not just one contry's contiuity. Every continuity. Ypou ar elimiting yourself to a single story line—US/UK G1. That is not the end-all-be-all of TF lore.

As fro TF:MtMtE, yes, it is a difinitive source. It is also completely relevant. If you had your way, we would only be discussing the US and UK Marvel comics and maybe the US cartoon. Guess what. That is not the entirety of TF canon. And I will no limit myself to just those sources because they are not the only sources relevant to this discussion. You have absolutely no authority to decide what is not canon. Only Hasbro and Takara have that authority. And, the fact that this site is an international website which caters to the entire TransFormers line, both US and Japanese, and has members from all around the world, you absolutely cannot discount any officially produced TF lore. All officially produced TF lore is appropriate to this discussion, and will not discount any of it simply because of your narrow-mindedness.

As for the TransFormers being machines? yes they are machines. so what! They are still life forms. Mechanical life forms. Robotic life forms. They are not Earth machines. They are living, breathing, eating life composed of mechanical, rather than organic, matter.

Zombie Starscream wrote:Is it true that they have colonies on other worlds, and live not just on Cybertron? I imagine thats how the Lithonians came about. They were isolated for a long time, cut off possibly, and developed into another "race." Or they could be the species the Quints made Cybertronians from, as they "borrowed" and "reformatted" a few Lithonians to create a whole new species to serve their purposes.

I'm pretty sure, the Lithonians are decended from Cybertronian colonists. I think it was mentioned in the Ultimate Guide to the TransFormers, but I'm not 100% sure on that. I would have to go to the bookstore to check it out and verify it.

I guess to use a rough analagy, Decepticons would be "bred" to be more aggressive and dominant just like certain breeds of dogs are. This is good, as aggression and dominant personalities means more success in battle. But this is also bad at the same time, because if there should be no war, they still have this hyper-aggression and desire for dominance in them, and will tend to seek a way to fill those needs. Hence, the drive to dominate the Universe, and eliminate the Autobots. They have a need for war and conquest, so they go out and create war and battle. Plus they love to fight amongst themselves for postions of superiority and power.

With the Autobots, they were "bred" to protect and to be loyal. I imagine they would be used for more mundane duties, and so they would protect their alien owners from harm and would want to stay with them and not run off. They would live peaciably with their owners, as nobody would want a creature that was a danger to them.

Interesting theory, i'll give you that, and very plausible. Part of the reason why Primus created the Original 13, thus establishing the Cybertronian race, was as a defense against Unicron, the Chaos-bringer. IF, as had been hinted at in the DW comics, the Quintessans did indeed enslave the early Cybertronians and breed them for various purposes, this would indeed reflect on what created the Decepticons long after the Quints were driven off.

Another thing that we need to look at is the wildlife on Cybertron, which we know exists. Both G1 Mirage's and movie Arcee's bios state that they each hunt turbo-foxes for sport, an animal. A mechaniod animal. I highly doubt these are made in factories. They would need to self-reproduce, probably just like a real fox. Also, look at the Scrap-metals/Rambles from Cybertron/Galaxy Force These are bugs that travel form planet to planet devouring everything in their paths. Certainly no one would intentionally be making these in factories. They would have to be capable of breeding. Another example of autopoietic reproduction, and probably sexual reproduction.

And lastly, both Autobots and Decepticons could have cockpits/ seats/ whatever so that the alien owners could either use them (Autobots) for transport to and from places, or used as a transport or piloted/driven by alien soldiers (Decepticons) when needed.

That too was supposed to be dealt with in the DW line, particularly the MicroMasters miniseries. According to what was hinted at in there, it isn't because of them being enslaved though, more to do with the future of the Cybertronian race, and their destined connection to humanoids like us.