Nemesis Cyberplex wrote:Tramp wrote:They don't have to The implication is as clear as day. The sole purpose for courtship is to bring males and females together for reproduction. The purpose of marriage evolved over the millenia is for the raising of offspring by both parents because it provides the best chance for the successful raising and protection of said offspring especially given the length of time it takes for human children to reach adulthood. Genders, courtship, marriage (taking on a life-mate) serves only one purpose in a species for its survival, and that is reproduction. It serves no other evolutionary or biological purpose.
But in the original run of TFs, they had no genetic need for families...therefore there must be some other reason for why they had them. Fail.
In the first season, we didn't have any females. It was in the second season that they were intorduced, and the implication was clear, that they aren't much different than us. Yet still there were only a small handful of femmes. Acree was the only recurring fem. As the Ultimate Guide put it, her appearance goes all the way back to ancient times—a time when Cybertronains of both genders were common. A time when ther were two genders; a time before all the females were taken away creating, in essence a single-gender socieity.
Yes, so was I. Yes, all TransFormers were born of the Allspark, but not directly. Their sparks came from the Allspark through the planet, through the growth of life. They were not brought in front of the Allspark as lifeless husks and "imbued" with a spark directly. As Robert Orci said, that creates mindless monsters. Not just from Earth Tech, but from anything. The Allspark is not meant to be used directly on any machine. It is menat to bring life to the planet itself so that the planet can bring forth life and sustain it.
once again, the only important thing to bring out of that is the fact that Prime says they are all TFs are
born from it. That means they don't come from sex.
Not quite. Prime's statement is like us saying we are all born from God, which, is also true depending upon your religious beliefs. He was not sayng that the Allspark was directly responsible for bringing each individual TF to life. Robert Orci's statment clarifies this perfectly. The Allspark created life on Cybertron, allowing life to flourish. Once the life was created in the first place, it evolved and flourished on its own with the power of the Allspark maintaining the planet's own ability to sustain life.
Fiction or reality, it does not matter Life cannot survive, much less thrive, without these criteria. This is especially true of autopoietic reproduction. without that, a species cannot continue. It will die out. a lfie form's only immortality is through its offspring by passing on its genes to the next generation. That canot be accomplished through creating copies in a factory. That requires autopoietic means. That requires procreation.
Actually yes, it matters quite a bit. & I'm still not going to argue this, as you clearly think fiction has to also follow the rules of reality, even though we're talking about advanced ancient giant alien robots from outer space.
Advanced alien robotic
life forms. That is the key difference. The very fact that you think because they are robotic limits your views to the belife that reproduction is only limited to organic life, and this is simply not true. It is a logical fallacy. Many of the articles I went through specifically say that these criteria work because they can be applied to
all life, not just, life in forms that we know, but
theoretical forms such as silicon based life, mechanical life, etc as well.
Imagine nanomichines capable of self-replication, self-maintainence (homeostasis), self-organization, metabolism, sensing and responding to environmental stimuli, growth, that would be
mechanical life. Now, imagine those nanites evolving, orgianizing into larger, more complex systems, Creating a multi-cellular organism. To increase diversity, and thus its chances of long-term survival, it evolves genders—sexual rerpoduction—to mix the genetic data, and continues to evolve eventually becoming sentient. That is robotic life.
How do you know that? You don't. We can't see any more than what they show because to do so would be innappropriate for children. The very fact that there is romantic affection, courtship, romantic rivalry. That is evidence of sexual reproduction. You don't need to see them in action. Arcee was the first female TransFormers seen in thousands of millenia if not longer. Yes, this is evidence of sexual reproduction and that genders are real among TransFormers.
No, it is evident that they show affection, any purpose beyond that is simply implied.
They show
romantic affection. Romance only serves one purpose in the survival of a species; and that purpose is
reproductive. Romance is
sexual attraction. It is
courtship. Courtship serves to bring a male and female together for mating. That is what romance is. It all comes down to sexual reproduction. That is not implied, that is
fact. When animals engage in courtship, they are trying to find a suitable mate and pass on their genes to a new generation. The same is true of Humans. We meet someone we are sexually attracted to, and court them, hoping to find a suitable sexual partner with whom to rais a family with. It all comes down to sexual reproduction. This is true of all life. This is true of TransFormers. They engage in romance—in courtship. Courtship is part of the sexual reproductive process, and is unique to sexually reproducing life.
The are there. You simply choose to ignore them because you can't look past them being robotic. There is not other conclusion to be drawn.
No, robotic or no, I'm not looking past them being fiction, children's fiction at that.
Fiction has to have a basis in fact. Otherwise, readers cannot relate to it and accept it's internal reality. Even the most far-out fantasy literature cannot throw reality completely out the window. It still has to be grounded in certain scientificand physical principles even if they don't overtly explain them.
I never said women are solely for reproduction. I said genders are solely for sexual reproduction. IF we were asexual beings, we would not have genders at all, much less gender idenmtities. We would not have males or females. The only reason why we do have males and females is sexual reproduction. That is why we are divided into two genders, why we engage in courtship and marry. To further the species. That is the only purpose for genders, courtship, etc.
once again, human hubris to think all complex life, alien, robotic, or otherwise, must have sex to be considered life.
No. It isn't hubris at all. It is scientific fact. Secondly, sexual reproduction does not necessarily mean sex as we do it. It is just the most likely scenerio in this case given their design. Plants engage in sexual reproduction through pollenation. Most fish never even come in physical contact with each other when they mate. The female lays her eggs, and the male comes along and fertilizes them. All sexual reproduction is, is reproduction through the combination of gametes. That can be done internally, as we do, or externally. Hubris is saying because they are mechanical, they
can't reproduce sexually. That they
have to be built in factories. That is hubris. That is being unimaginative. The combined evidence shows that TFs had at one time two distinct genders, and
every member of one gender—the females—was taken, which forced the use of factory-built protoforms to become the standard method of creating new Cybertronians. When the females were re-introduced, we see courtship, marriage, and families again. We see children being raised again. Something that hadn't happened in millions of years. I consider that pretty strong evidence of sexual reproduction. IF the TransFormers were organic, we wouldn't be having this debate.
Here is the applicable definitions of courtship and courting, from the Oxford dictionary—
courtship
• noun 1 a period of courting. 2 the courting behaviour of male birds and other animals. 3 the action of courting.Court
• verb 1 dated be involved with romantically, especially with a view to marriage. 5 (of a male bird or other animal) try to attract (a mate).It all comes down to mating. It all comes down to reproduction.
And I am referring to in universe. Life forms cannot choose their sex. Yes, it was the preferense of the writers, more accurately Hasbro. It was a marketing ploy, and it worked. However, once that decision was made, ther has to be an internal[b] reason for it. And the only [b]logical reason, given that TransFormers are living beings, is reproductive. Genders serve no other purpose in a life form or its survival.
*sigh*
"You're wrong, because my reasoning on this matter is better than yours.
"you're not even arguing what I was talking about"
"it dosen't matter, I'm right anyway"
....That's all I'm saying about this part.
No, your reasoning isn't. You have not once provided a reason for any species to have genders or engage in courtship that doesn't revolve around reproduction. And that is because there
is not other purpose. A life form being male or female, and engaging in courtship, serves only a reproductive purpose. There is no other purpose for it, and you have yet to provide one. Therefore, no, you have not provided a better argument.
Yes, there is a logical reason why they should be capable of it. First, they are life forms. Second, they are life forms divided into two distinct sexes—male and female. Why do life forms have sexes? Reproduction. That is why they have genders, and gneders evolved for reproduction. That is the only purpose for a life form to be male or female. It is so that it can come together with a member of the opposite gender and make babies. Courtship is meant to draw a male and female together so they can mate and make babies. Marriage evolved so that the male and female cuould better raise those children. IF you think logically from the standpoint of TransFormers being life forms instead of "just" robots, particularly life forms divided by gender, it makes perfect sense that they would be sexual beings capable of reproduction through sexual means. IF TransFormers were truely asexual, they would not have either male or female appearances. They would not refer to themselves or others of theoir kind as "he" or "she". They would have absolutely no concept of gender. The very fact that they do have a concept of gender, clearly evident in their gender-based bias towards Arcee, is proof enough of this. They are sexual beings, but some time in their past, all of the females were taken by the Quintessans forcing them into an essentially genderless existence until Arcee, and later, other lost Femmes, came back to Cybertron. The fact that they are mechanical in composition has no bearing. It is irrelevant. They are living beings divided by sex. Sexes only serve a reproductive purpose in life. That is what is relevant.
NO, the point here is
you want them to be sexual beings. Your entire argument was debunked several pages ago, & now all you can do towards any point of argument is: "uh-huh, it is so, because I say it is, so your wrong." I'm done arguing.
No, It isn't because "I want them" to be that way., The evidence say that they are that way. You have yet to give a single solid reason why they would have males and females, and engage in courtship, and everything else which serves a
reproductive functiuon in life, that they posess, If it isn't for reproduction. There is no other purpose for them to have genders or engage in these activies.
They only serve a reproductive purpose. And, unless you can give a logical reason why a life form would have genders and engage in these activities that in no way serves a reproductive function, then your argument has no leg to stand on. And don't give me the "gay marriage" bit, because even that has to do with sex.
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