The Energon Pub

Just for clarification when I mention Japanese shows I am referring to just Robots in Disguise, Armada and Cybertron.

Yes, the original cartoon was Anime styled. It was part of the appeal to us kids at the time, because shows like 'Battle of the Planets' and 'Star Blazers' had already shown that Japanese anime had a certain coolness edge over American cartoons.

The difference is that the G1 cartoon was still made for an American audience first whereas the latter versions were made for Japanese audiences. Personally, I just found the Japanese versions were too juvenille and that the dubbing was just way too choppy.

ThunderThruster wrote:i actually really like the takara series! i dont class it as G1 cause they ommitted the entire 'Rebith' storyline! i've got no problems with anime, in fact just the opposite, as i cant decide which anime series i want to collect next from such a vast amount!

That's because Rebirth was dropped in favor of the Headmasters series. Which depending on who you are and which version you watched (The infamous Star Tv dubs are bad voice overs at it's worst. But are unintentionally hilarious.) was either really cool or craptastic at best.

The problem I have is not with anime per se; I've loved anime stuff for years.
I think the problem arises when a cartoon made for a Japanese audience is then rewritten and dubbed for a Western audience. As much as our two cultures may be coming together, they're still very, very different, and our cartoons reflect this as much as anything.

If a cartoon is marketed with intention with which it's made, it works; anime works if viewed as anime; American cartoons work if viewed in that manner.
Americans and Japanese artists can work together to create a series that works in both countries.

But where they went wrong with the likes of these later TF series was to take a Japanese series and then try to rewrite and market it as if it was American, and it didn't work.

Viral wrote:You guys do know that Japanese animation studios have been working on the majority of the shows since G1, right?

But the Japanese weren't writing the stories, and that's the difference.

Mechanurgist wrote:

Viral wrote:You guys do know that Japanese animation studios have been working on the majority of the shows since G1, right?

But the Japanese weren't writing the stories, and that's the difference.

Your point, being? Japanese writers have contributed great stories to the Transformers lore.

i dont mind most of them, but the main reason(unicron trilogy) is because its all about "teamwork" and "friendship" and stuff like that. now like the BW series and headmasters, super god master forse, and victory all have this g1 feel to it.

Now, I enjoy A/E/C shows. There great. But consider this,I first watched Armada when I was 10 years. Energon came on when I was 12 and Cybertron when I was 13. Actually the only TF series I have any real distaste for are BM and RID. I always think the idiots who say bad stuff about TF anime are pretty ignorant I mean come on. TF originated from Japan.

They aren't use to Japanese anime and it is a culture thing.Japanese cartoons are more adult oriented.

babylon queen wrote:They aren't use to Japanese anime and it is a culture thing.Japanese cartoons are more adult oriented.

That could be one piont you brought up.
But I think it could be the bad dubing. As for myself I enjoyed Energon and Cybertron the more recents ones.

Viral wrote:

Mechanurgist wrote:

Viral wrote:You guys do know that Japanese animation studios have been working on the majority of the shows since G1, right?

But the Japanese weren't writing the stories, and that's the difference.

Your point, being? Japanese writers have contributed great stories to the Transformers lore.

yeah, that may be true, however, the series that seem to be the most popular among the fanbase, beast wars and g1 (seasons 1, 2, 3, 4, and the movie) weren't written by the Japanese. And thats the difference. No one is discrediting the Japanese for their superb animation, nor their story telling, however, the problems lie in the Japanese are writing stories for THEIR culture and When we try to take what theyve made and try to adapt it to the English/American culture, it seems out of place, spotty and well... "alien." I won't say that micron legends, superlink and galaxy force were bad shows, but armada, energon, and cybertron were rather mediocre, especially when compared to shows written by American/Canadian writers specifically FOR Americans/Canadians/English.

Movie Optimus wrote:Now, I enjoy A/E/C shows. There great. But consider this,I first watched Armada when I was 10 years. Energon came on when I was 12 and Cybertron when I was 13. Actually the only TF series I have any real distaste for are BM and RID. I always think the idiots who say bad stuff about TF anime are pretty ignorant I mean come on. TF originated from Japan.

yes and no. The actual idea of the transformers, that was US marketing stratgey with comics and the Tv show (as well as taking the japanese robot lines, and changing things around, assigning names, factions, even new colors, etc). The actual toys and the licensing behind the moulds? that was the japanese, as was the animation. Every thing else about Transformers, is pretty much a marketting strategy by Hasbro.

Elaborate for me, on how the more japanese helmed series, stories were more "alien" to the U.S. Transformers fanbase? What was exactly "alien" about them? Please, go into details.

Haha, this will be good.

Viral wrote:Elaborate for me, on how the more japanese helmed series, stories were more "alien" to the U.S. Transformers fanbase? What was exactly "alien" about them? Please, go into details.

Haha, this will be good.

We're americans, not Japanese, the Japanese shows were written with the Japanese culture in mind. It doesn't get more simple than that. The Americanized versions of those shows come off as a bit alien and awkward, simply because we're trying to adapt something created with one culture in mind, and making it for another. Thats why most anime fans prefer watching subs of the Japanese anime, rather than the dubbed English versions. Because as far as my understandin goes, its still the "raw" Japanese show, but with translated subtitles. Correct me if I'm wrong on that last part, but thats what my understanding of all this is.

Head Shot wrote:We're americans, not Japanese, the Japanese shows were written with the Japanese culture in mind. It doesn't get more simple than that. The Americanized versions of those shows come off as a bit alien and awkward, simply because we're trying to adapt something created with one culture in mind, and making it for another. Thats why most anime fans prefer watching subs of the Japanese anime, rather than the dubbed English versions. Because as far as my understandin goes, its still the "raw" Japanese show, but with translated subtitles. Correct me if I'm wrong on that last part, but thats what my understanding of all this is.

Eh, seems you didn't understand my post. Elaborate on what exactly makes each of those series' stories "alien" to Western shores.

I'll help you out. Robots in Disguise's Summary, courtesy of Wikipedia -

When Megatron and his evil Predacons arrive on Earth and kidnap the planet's foremost energy expert, Doctor Kenneth Onishi, a secret force of goodness emerges - Optimus Prime and his Autobots, hidden undercover on Earth disguised as vehicles, reveal themselves to do battle against Megatron's forces.

So, please tell me what far out, unfathomable, Japanese concepts us poor Americans couldn't grasp there?

The Transformers originated in the 70's in Japan. Hasbro just cashed in on it and made a cartoon out of it for profit. Things were different in the 80's and most of the cartoons back then were very violent and the TF were aimed at older kids because of its content. In the 80's you could be 13, 14, or 15 and still play with toys. Nowadays, most kids are out of toys by 12. Its all game systems now. I personally love Japanime. But these new TF cartoons and shows, with the exception of Beast Wars, are genearlly aimed at children. The toys are aimed at us, the 20 something and 30 something collectors. Most of the toys out today are hard for even my 14 year old let alone any of the younger kids that watch the shows. The shows are great- for kids.

Viral, what Head Shot seems to be getting at is that Japanese animation is aimed at a Japanese audience, and generally it is more likely to appeal to that audience.

You seem to be getting awful annoyed with the guy just for stating a fact... its not the concept, its the execution.

I don't claim to be an expert on anime, but there are clearly little touches that are used more widely in the Japanese style of animation like the stock transformation sequences with the speed lines, the odd facial expressions (Teen Titans pretty much homages all these things - a good example if you want clarification of the characteristics I'm talking about).

These things are conventions in Japanese animation rather than Western animation, and as such Western viewers are often a little confused by them, and enjoy the cartoon less. It doesn't mean theres some kind of bigotry at work, its just that every nation has different tastes.

You know that Coke tastes different in pretty much every country you buy it in right? Different recipes for different national tastes, but it still goes great with whisky...

Prowl_83 wrote:Viral, what Head Shot seems to be getting at is that Japanese animation is aimed at a Japanese audience, and generally it is more likely to appeal to that audience.

You seem to be getting awful annoyed with the guy just for stating a fact... its not the concept, its the execution.

I don't claim to be an expert on anime, but there are clearly little touches that are used more widely in the Japanese style of animation like the stock transformation sequences with the speed lines, the odd facial expressions (Teen Titans pretty much homages all these things - a good example if you want clarification of the characteristics I'm talking about).

These things are conventions in Japanese animation rather than Western animation, and as such Western viewers are often a little confused by them, and enjoy the cartoon less. It doesn't mean theres some kind of bigotry at work, its just that every nation has different tastes.

You know that Coke tastes different in pretty much every country you buy it in right? Different recipes for different national tastes, but it still goes great with whisky...

thanks, you've hit the nail on the head

I also like the coke and whiskey thing you threw in at the end

Prowl_83 wrote:Viral, what Head Shot seems to be getting at is that Japanese animation is aimed at a Japanese audience, and generally it is more likely to appeal to that audience.

You seem to be getting awful annoyed with the guy just for stating a fact... its not the concept, its the execution.

I don't claim to be an expert on anime, but there are clearly little touches that are used more widely in the Japanese style of animation like the stock transformation sequences with the speed lines, the odd facial expressions (Teen Titans pretty much homages all these things - a good example if you want clarification of the characteristics I'm talking about).

These things are conventions in Japanese animation rather than Western animation, and as such Western viewers are often a little confused by them, and enjoy the cartoon less. It doesn't mean theres some kind of bigotry at work, its just that every nation has different tastes.

You know that Coke tastes different in pretty much every country you buy it in right? Different recipes for different national tastes, but it still goes great with whisky...

And this still, has nothing to do with anything brought up on this page. If exaggerated facial expressions is the extent of what Japanese cartoons have, that alienate our culture (alienate being the term used by Head Shot) then your argument falls abruptly short. Especially considering that exaggerated facial expressions is an AMERICAN thing (yea, I'm waiting on the replies to THAT one).

Good job on avoiding actually answer the question too, I may add Head Shot.

I said address the story (which YOU said was alien), and where it had alien, weirdo Japanese concepts, and you didn't say a thing, until the fellow quoted above me said something, mind you not even answering the question, and then proceeded to co-sign him. lol


Good job. Seriously.

I'm referring to the sort of facial expressions that involve little teardrop effects, making peace signs, crosses for eyes for humour... the sort of thing that most western audiences equate with cartoons such as Pokemon, for want of a better description. As I'm not a huge anime fan I have no idea what the technical terms for these conventions are.

They really aren't common in Western cartoons - go through MASK, Centurions, Visionaries, XMen, Spiderman, GI Joe, any of those, and you aren't likely to see the same styles.

Neither myself nor Head Shot are hating on Japanese animation, simply saying that it isn't always to the tastes of Western audiences, as it features conventions and styles that are more aimed at an Eastern audience. As a result, in many cases that is the audience that appreciates it more.

The thread is about why Western audiences are less fond of Anime. I think the above is as sensible response as any, and I fail to see what is so wrong with agreeing with someone like Head Shot who makes a perfectly valid suggestion. At no point does anyone claim its the only reason or that it is mutually exclusive of any ideas you have on the subject.

This is the last I intend to say on the matter because I find your tone a little aggressive and I don't intend to throw insults back and forth like a pair of 15 year old nerds who really, really need to get laid.

Because they turn inot **** when they are translated. I heard Superlink was very "dark". Yet Energon look so kiddy to me...
The only Japaneese one i like was Cybertron.

I find very fascinating kid today can't play whit their toy past age 10! I think its called "cultural pression" or something...

I prefer to watch unedited, unaltered animes.

And when someone goes out of the way to change things, even subtle things, can annoy me. Remember the infamous blue beer in DBZ when it came to the states.

Only time I like the american dub of a series more than japanese was Sorceror Hunters, since I watched all the episodes in both languages.

Worst example though is Goshogun: The Time Entrangler. The america dub was AWFUL, even worse than the stuff Saban was infamous for doing. The Original Japanese version was MUCH better.

Prowl_83 wrote:I'm referring to the sort of facial expressions that involve little teardrop effects, making peace signs, crosses for eyes for humour... the sort of thing that most western audiences equate with cartoons such as Pokemon, for want of a better description. As I'm not a huge anime fan I have no idea what the technical terms for these conventions are.

Yes, while these things are very common to Japaneses made cartoons, they are not alien to western audiences. They have always been, and will continue to be used in Western produced cartoons.

They really aren't common in Western cartoons - go through MASK, Centurions, Visionaries, XMen, Spiderman, GI Joe, any of those, and you aren't likely to see the same styles.

Jun 28, 2007.

Neither myself nor Head Shot are hating on Japanese animation, simply saying that it isn't always to the tastes of Western audiences, as it features conventions and styles that are more aimed at an Eastern audience. As a result, in many cases that is the audience that appreciates it more.

Anime popularity is at an all time high, right now. Damn near every station, with a lineup for children, has something Japanese produced, or heavily influenced airing. It's not some big secret. Anime = Popular right now. Don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise.

The thread is about why Western audiences are less fond of Anime. I think the above is as sensible response as any, and I fail to see what is so wrong with agreeing with someone like Head Shot who makes a perfectly valid suggestion. At no point does anyone claim its the only reason or that it is mutually exclusive of any ideas you have on the subject.

I asked, that he specifically state the parts of the Japanese produced exclusive shows (i.e. the runs that were shown in Japan first) stories (which he disputed was alien to western audiences), detailing what exactly what alien, and therefore "not suitable for Western audiences.

This is the last I intend to say on the matter because I find your tone a little aggressive and I don't intend to throw insults back and forth like a pair of 15 year old nerds who really, really need to get laid.

Ahh, I see. When all else fails, fall back, eh? And throw in an insult for good measure. This is a message board. Conversations take place here, and there's quite often disagreeing views. It happens. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen, as they say.

What I notice a lot in Anime is that some stuff (facial expressions, emotions, actions ect.,) gets exaggerated. And Americans probably like their stuff less exaggerated. My guess is that the Japanese want more of a visual 'feast,' and little touches here and there also add to the story, rather then just plain dialog.

I actually like how Anime looks, it has a more 'serious' edge to it, and I even tried to draw it. (its a little harder, owing that it is a different drawing style) Sometimes the Anime 'look' works a lot better the the American 'look' in some things.

Zombie Starscream wrote:What I notice a lot in Anime is that some stuff (facial expressions, emotions, actions ect.,) gets exaggerated. And Americans probably like their stuff less exaggerated. My guess is that the Japanese want more of a visual 'feast,' and little touches here and there also add to the story, rather then just plain dialog.

I actually like how Anime looks, it has a more 'serious' edge to it, and I even tried to draw it. (its a little harder, owing that it is a different drawing style) Sometimes the Anime 'look' works a lot better the the American 'look' in some things.

I hear you. The thing that's ironic, is that alot of the things the Japanese have made common practice, in their style of artwork, was borrowed from us. Large eyes were attributed to Disney cartoons. Exaggerated proportions were from Looney Tunes, and Hanna-Barbara cartoons, etc.

We've been borrowing, and homaging each other for decades.

Granted, all of this is not common knowledge. People just assume that the Japanese "came up with it". The privilege of being an art major, I suppose.

Zombie Starscream, you managed to distill exactly what I was saying into a nice short post... the exaggeration and visual touches of anime aren't always so well recieved by Western audiences.

They're one of the aspects of Anime I'm not fond of, as I generally prefer a more 'straight' style for action cartoons (See the Fox Spiderman animation of the 90s). that said I welcome the anime homage style of the new cartoon series. looks very dynamic, something the japanese are very good at.

By the way Viral, I'm not biting, so go fish