The Energon Pub

Prowl_83 wrote:Zombie Starscream, you managed to distill exactly what I was saying into a nice short post... the exaggeration and visual touches of anime aren't always so well recieved by Western audiences.

They're one of the aspects of Anime I'm not fond of, as I generally prefer a more 'straight' style for action cartoons (See the Fox Spiderman animation of the 90s). that said I welcome the anime homage style of the new cartoon series. looks very dynamic, something the japanese are very good at.

By the way Viral, I'm not biting, so go fish

The 90's Spider-Man? That show barely had ANY action. Hell, Spider-Man thew a punch what, twice in the entire series? Or were you so young, that you had no clue you were watching one of the most censored cartoons ever made?

You just look to be babbling on about things you know nothing about, so I'ma just let you slide, as of now.

EDIT: Edited for misread.

Edited out of courtesy

Yep, I did misread that. Forgive me.

And the Spider-Man toon was a show, aimed at 5 year olds. It was censored to hell. You should read up on it, in your spare time.

Viral wrote:Yep, I did misread that. Forgive me.

And the Spider-Man toon was a show, aimed at 5 year olds. It was censored to hell. You should read up on it, in your spare time.

It was censored?
I never noticed that, maybe in Germany and the UK we saw the uncut version
Cos it was qute action paced and Spidy batteled quite a lot.

Dead Metal wrote:

Viral wrote:Yep, I did misread that. Forgive me.

And the Spider-Man toon was a show, aimed at 5 year olds. It was censored to hell. You should read up on it, in your spare time.

It was censored?
I never noticed that, maybe in Germany and the UK we saw the uncut version
Cos it was qute action paced and Spidy batteled quite a lot.

It's possible, but unlikely. Seems it was produced this way, and not edited.

It's also more likely that the nostalgia factor kicking in (being our memories of watching it at a much younger age keeps us from realizating what it truely was, at the time). Something alot of you do when it comes to the G1 toon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man ... _series%29

"Censorship"

My point is, that's its definitely not a show, that we should hold in high regard, when it comes it action. Ugh, just thinking about it makes me sick. Such a wasted potential. '90's X-Men was a vastly superior Marvel toon. It even dealt with actual death, unlike Spidey.

They sayd kill and die in Germany.

No biggie on misreading Viral, happens to us all. You're clearly a smart guy and after reading a few of your other posts I respect that you have something positive to say unlike many, so from now on lets agree to disagree, and bond over the fact that we both think 90s X-Men kicked major aft...



I have read up on the censorship of 90s Spiderman, a few weeks back in fact on a slow afternoon at work. I've seen it fairly recently and I dunno, personally I think it holds up well despite being a little sanitised. I'd still put it pretty high on my list after X Men.

Just re-reading the wiki article... find it pretty amusing that spidey wasn't allowed to punch anyone, although he could drop buildings on them..

I appreciate that. I'm just attempting to downplay all the negativity surrounding everything post G1 gets. This happens with literally every show, every couple of years. It seems that people hold it on such a high mantle, that they forget (due to one reason of another) how silly G1 was majority of the time.

lol Who remembers when the Transformers went to the Middle Ages, and met up with King Arthur? Or when they went to that planet, inhabited by giant human-like aliens, and they were played with like toys by a giant alien kid? That's just off the top of my head.

These shows were aimed at a younger demographic. While it was great for what it was, it's not the end all, be all of where you can take the Transformers property.

You know what I want? A Japanese animated (traditionally drawn, with them sparingly using CG rendering), OVA/Film, based on the Transformers.

No humans (and if there are any, they aren't the spotlight). No silly crap, and over the top jokes. Just an all out war, or the highest quality. In terms of studio's handling it, I'd love to see GAINAX, Production I.G., Tatsunoko Pro., or Bones handle it.

It being a film/OVA would mean fewer episodes, so the budget could be used better, for quality episodes, instead of rushed, and re-used animations.

Then, I'd like to get some of the American writers and designers on it, doing the designs, and the script. It would be awesome. The key would be, aiming for an older demographic, and not be concerned with selling toys, because honestly, G1 was a nicely packaged, long toy ad.

Looking back at what I said, it seems what I tried to say isn't exactly what came out. I'm not talking about the literal plot points, I'm talking about the show in general, all the way down to the anime-ish style of over exagerrations, like in prowl's post that I had agreed on him with. I'm not bashing the animation quality at all, because thats been superb since g1 no matter who was animating it. I have no doubts that the animation will be great, but the art style and the overall style/feel of the show is where I start to dislike it.

Like the sequences when they yell transform and you have trippy backgrounds to transform in the show. The "super mode" thing thats been going on in these shows since RiD with the absolutely ludicrous amounts of fire power (most of which hardly makes any sense, even for a cartoon, but makes plenty of sense for that style) also follows the same style. The thing I liked about g1 and even beast wars, was there wasn't this style to them, and was for the most part like a traditional saturday morning cartoon for the time, where you didn't need overly flashy transformation sequences, and the over exagerations as far as expressions went. Its just now that anime has become popular on an almost global scale (not that there is anything wrong with anime, I just don't particularly like its style with the exception of a few shows and various games.), its become more common that tv shows are gonna be more alogn this style because its whats popular.

do I like this? no. Do I have to accept it? yeah, considering I have no control over how things are done, and if I was the one who oversaw everything done with the property, I too would probably go with the crowd and do the anime style too because thats whats "in" right now. I just hope down the line we can move away from every show having this anime style to them, because while its good in small doses, it becomes annoying to see more than half the cartoons on tv are anime, especially when you're not a big fan of the style to begin with.

(I don't hate anime styles, because I like the following things: Inuyasha {while it follows the style i was talking about before, this show has its own charms to it}, the gyakuten saiban/phoenix wright games, and the early eps of DBZ (I stopped watching right after freiza, because it became too much for me afterwards, and lost interest. And I love samurai jack for the art style and what it went with. however, to me this art style doesn't fit the transformers property, and I also disliked the clone wars not for the art style itself, but for what it was supposed to be, star wars. The extreme over exagerations like mace windu flying like 4 football lengths in the air was just stupid to me, and waaay to over the top.

What I'm trying to get at is, I think we've had the current anime style with transformers long enough, and its time we put it in a new direction again, like we did with beast wars, rather than simply make a new show with a new art style, but what i'm assuming is gonna be the same feel of style if its anything like teen titans. So while I hate the direction it may be going in, it won't keep me from buying the toys as long as they are similar to what we've been getting with cybertron, classics, and even some of the movie toys as far as designs go.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Beast Wars was the best Transformers run to date, no exceptions.

Now, I hear what you're saying about the Transformation sequences. I disliked that as well. The thing is though, it's not really a "Japanese thing", as it's more of "This show is made for children, to sell the toys", thing. That's the key, right there. The target demographic has usually stayed constant, and depending on how young they're aiming for, will depend on how many liberties they will take to make them look appealing to children. Bright colors, and exaggerated Henshin sequences are apparently what kids want.

Now, about Anime. Not sure how much you know, or how into Japanese animation you are, but I can make some suggestions, so you can see Japanese animation is just as, if not more varied than western animation. Off top -

- Karas (6 Part OVA, 3 out as of now) Released in the states by Manga Ent.

- Vampire Hunter D (Released in English years ago. You can grab it at any video rental spot. Movie/Film).

- Mobile Suit Gundam: The 08th MS Team (Again, most chains carry this OVA. 11 eps.

I just got a tad "agitated" when people began to discuss Japanese animation negatively, but I'm starting to see why. Some people's only exposure to Japanese animation, is from Cartoon Network, and Kids WB!. All you guys know, is Pokemon, and whatever airs in Adult Swim. Just letting you know, that there's way more to Japan, than Pokemon, and Naruto.

Just keep in mind, that Japan has always animated majority of the shows, since day 1. So saying it's a "Japanese vs. American" thing is highly incorrect. Especially considering what we agreed upon as the best Transformers had to offer, Beast Wars, was CANADIAN made, and not American.

It seems that people hold it on such a high mantle, that they forget (due to one reason of another) how silly G1 was majority of the time.

lol Who remembers when the Transformers went to the Middle Ages, and met up with King Arthur? Or when they went to that planet, inhabited by giant human-like aliens, and they were played with like toys by a giant alien kid? That's just off the top of my head.

I remember those episodes, in fact I would say that they were some of the better and or more memorable ones. I think they worked because they weren’t the usual TF story (Decepticons attack energy source, Autobots show up to stop them), they were more like one off episodes. Plus they were a chance to see a smaller group of characters get more screen time.

As far as G1 being "silly" it all depends on who your audience is. Was it silly considering it was a show aimed at kids? Probably not. Just because it didnt have anime conventions in it, or cultural themes, or violence like what is in most animes, doesn’t mean its not good. Hell G1 was a success in Japan, if not then why would they be making all these spin offs? But back to silly, one could say that soap operas are "silly", but then again they may not seem that way to their target audience.

Bottom line is this, TF was a show created with an American/western audience in mind, it took its designs from Japan, but the story and characterizations were Western. While the animation was done in Japan it wasn’t necessarily what we would call anime these days. I dont think many people have a problem with the art style aspect of anime style TF as much as they do the writing/story approach. People want some thing that is new with quality animation, but prefer having a story and or characterizations that they are familiar with, ala G1. The problem is that mot people started with G1, which as I explained contained the elements that they would like to see now. If G1 were something like Voltron or Starblazers, shows that were from the start a Japanese only/anime show that was redubbed, then expectations would be different and we probably wouldn’t be having this discussion.

I remember those episodes, in fact I would say that they were some of the better and or more memorable ones. I think they worked because they weren’t the usual TF story (Decepticons attack energy source, Autobots show up to stop them), they were more like one off episodes. Plus they were a chance to see a smaller group of characters get more screen time.

More memorable, sure. But I wouldn't call Transformers going to the past, meeting up with King Arthur some of the "best" G1 had to offer. Seeing second tier Transformers get more screen time is fine, but they don't have to go to the middle ages to pull that off.

As far as G1 being "silly" it all depends on who your audience is. Was it silly considering it was a show aimed at kids? Probably not. Just because it didnt have anime conventions in it, or cultural themes, or violence like what is in most animes, doesn’t mean its not good. Hell G1 was a success in Japan, if not then why would they be making all these spin offs? But back to silly, one could say that soap operas are "silly", but then again they may not seem that way to their target audience.

You just reiterated my point. Thank you. G1 was aimed for children. As is most of the Transformers series/runs.

Bottom line is this, TF was a show created with an American/western audience in mind, it took its designs from Japan, but the story and characterizations were Western. While the animation was done in Japan it wasn’t necessarily what we would call anime these days. I dont think many people have a problem with the art style aspect of anime style TF as much as they do the writing/story approach. People want some thing that is new with quality animation, but prefer having a story and or characterizations that they are familiar with, ala G1. The problem is that mot people started with G1, which as I explained contained the elements that they would like to see now. If G1 were something like Voltron or Starblazers, shows that were from the start a Japanese only/anime show that was redubbed, then expectations would be different and we probably wouldn’t be having this discussion.

And you're blaming the dubbing on the shows, done by an entirely separate studio, on the Japanese production company? Or have we forgotten that they went in their own direction with the least 4 series, and totally altered the story, and even characters around, to fit what they wanted?

Once again, this isn't about Japanese writing/animation, versus American writing/animation. This is about whom do you want the target demographic to be. Because THAT decides everything.

Who remembers when the Transformers went to the Middle Ages, and met up with King Arthur? Or when they went to that planet, inhabited by giant human-like aliens, and they were played with like toys by a giant alien kid? That's just off the top of my head.

Those episodes are: "A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" (which is a misleading title since Spike, Hoist, Warpath, Rumble, Ravage, Ramjet, and Starscream actually NEVER meet King Arthur, Merlin, or any of the other Knights of the Round Table) and "Child's Play" respectablly.

Cyberstrike wrote:

Who remembers when the Transformers went to the Middle Ages, and met up with King Arthur? Or when they went to that planet, inhabited by giant human-like aliens, and they were played with like toys by a giant alien kid? That's just off the top of my head.

Those episodes are: "A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" (which is a misleading title since Spike, Hoist, Warpath, Rumble, Ravage, Ramjet, and Starscream actually NEVER meet King Arthur, Merlin, or any of the other Knights of the Round Table) and "Child's Play" respectablly.

Thx. It's been so damn long, had no clue what the titles were. Just remember them going to the middle ages, and giant alien children.

Viral wrote:

Cyberstrike wrote:

Who remembers when the Transformers went to the Middle Ages, and met up with King Arthur? Or when they went to that planet, inhabited by giant human-like aliens, and they were played with like toys by a giant alien kid? That's just off the top of my head.

Those episodes are: "A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" (which is a misleading title since Spike, Hoist, Warpath, Rumble, Ravage, Ramjet, and Starscream actually NEVER meet King Arthur, Merlin, or any of the other Knights of the Round Table) and "Child's Play" respectablly.

Thx. It's been so damn long, had no clue what the titles were. Just remember them going to the middle ages, and giant alien children.

Jae those are exelent examples for how crazy G1 sometimes was.
And they did meetup with Merlin.

Whew. Fun thread with a few people getting really bent out of shape. If I may interject with my opinion which, since I'm new around here, will probably get torn apart.

I rather enjoyed Victory and Masterforce While they weren't the G1 cartoons I watched as a child, they were full of Transformers beating the snot out of eachother and, at least to me at the time, picked up where "Rebirth" left off. It sort of renewed the Transformers mythos while giving kids the idea "Yep. Just find these bracelets and you could be a Transformer!" What kid wouldn't get into that? The animation was similar, Ginrai/Prime was still the one everyone counted on to save the day...and, hell. Space battles are just plain cool. It was, pretty much, entires series animated like the "Call of the Primitives" episode. Which was pretty cool, if you ask me.

I'm assuming that the Beast Wars we're talking about here is the CG one and not the animated one? Personally, I don't understand why everyone has such a high regard for Beast Wars/Machines. I don't like CG animation, but I gave the show a chance because it was Transformers. As a whole, the show just rubbed me thr wrong way. Why did they need alt modes that would protect them frm Energon radiation when energon is what fuels Transformers? ...and the Rat just annoyed the hell out of me. But then, I didn't grow up with them. I imagine it's the same way BW/BM fans look back at G1 and say, "Really? How did you watch that?" From what I understand, BW/BM happened while the Autobots ad Decepticons were in stasis on Earth, right? What about Shockwave on Cybertron? How would he NOT notice most of Cybertron getting covered in techno-organic gunk at the end of BM? Or "Megahead" taking over? To me, it was basically saying, "Yeah...Shockwave didn't notice ANY of this crap over 4 million years." But, again, my knowledge of BW/BM is limited to what little I've watched. I'm not trying to cause any trouble...I just want to know what was going on there. I'll probably get blasted by BW/BM fans. But, that's fine...maybe you could explain to me what I don't understand about the series.

As far as Armada, Energon, etc. go, I can sort of see what both sides in here are saying (even if one side is being really stand-offish and irritable). Personally, if anything was "alienating" about it, I thought it was the CONSTANT ten-minute speeches about friendship. I could get past the redesigns, the overuse of traditional animation mixed hap-hazardly wit CGI...but taking up almost entire episodes with speeches about how much this Autobot loves his friends and how much that Autobot is second guessing himself just to find out that his friends believe in him so everything's ok? Come on. At 5 or 6 years old, if Transformers had babbled on like that...I would've changed the channel. Nowadays everyone's just so damned worried about shows being "kid friendly", that they've been losing sight fo what kids enjoy. Though, there were some pretty cool ideas mixed in there...like Starscream, Unicron armor, immortal sparks and all that jazz.

Edit: Those episodes like "Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" were just plain fun. Sure, they were wacky and...yes...even stupid at times, but so are episodes of ANY show/cartoon.

Anyways, that about ends my long-windedness for 4am. Let the tearing appart commence.

Now everybody says G1 is anime cos it was animated by a asian company!
Well I say no to that!
Lets say it was animated in Germany but projuced by a Us compony, would you consider it German?
All the animation was supervised by americans, all the main animaters were americans, read the credids.

Adapting classic stories like Mark Twain's "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" wasnt uncommon to do in cartoons.

Transformers wasnt any different.

How is that any different than Hearts of Steel or any other 'What if' story.

Heck, Beast Wars whole storyline takes place because of time travel.

actually, I love the more anime-styled Transformers, those are what pulled me into being a fan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EgRlFkZN8Y


Now tell me TF anime dosent suck


And dont give me the "U.S.A dubb translated it wrong"

If u dubb a crap show it will still be a crap show


And u know what i hate most about it, none of them look liek real Vehicels, how is a a race car with missel launchers on the side , or a fire truck with a canon up top suposed to blend in

Robots in DISGUISE people!!!


I cant belive hasbro ended the Beast Era for this crap

I don't see any problems. I like the anime!

Sl1der wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EgRlFkZN8Y


Now tell me TF anime dosent suck


And dont give me the "U.S.A dubb translated it wrong"

If u dubb a crap show it will still be a crap show


And u know what i hate most about it, none of them look liek real Vehicels, how is a a race car with missel launchers on the side , or a fire truck with a canon up top suposed to blend in

Robots in DISGUISE people!!!


I cant belive hasbro ended the Beast Era for this crap

Now, that's "Cybertron". What I'm saying was cool was "Victory" and "Masterforce".

"Cybertron" did, indeed, suck.

I like a lot of anime, Bleach, Full Metal Alchemist, Full Metal Panic, X-TV, and countless other anime that I've spent a lot of free time watching. And I still hate Energon, RID, and Armada. I havent seen any of Cybertron/Galaxy Force so I dont know.

Sorry but the transformers are supposed to be adult type beings, but in those shows they act as childish as the kids they meet and run with. The decepticons are always retards with the exception of Megatron/Galvatron and you wonder how in the world they were programmed to be Military beings...unless the US government got ahold of em LOL.

G1 was so loved and had a cult following because they way they made it, as a kid you'd look at the car window at other vehicles and picture them transforming (come on you know you did to at some point) The autobots and decepticons were vehicles from the 80's... But from what i've seen of RID, Energon and Armada , is more about Transformers growing up and decepticons finding new ways to p*ss Megatron off with their stupidity G1 had its faults but and was for children but at least their idea was more believable. Maybe one day when aliens come down to earth acting like 8 year olds in giant robot bodies fighting idiots across space, then those will be more believable.

I like anime, and I like most of the anime TF, I just don't like the dubs is all

fine lets put it to the test

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc_OKdXJ ... ed&search=

VS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB0_vJUc3o4


u be the judge