Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

[Wingz]

I hated most of everything about season three of G1. Bad writing was a big reason for that.

Hot Rod in the 86' movie, however...more than who the character was, I admire what he represented. His story was, to me, the first in an ongoing trend for animated continuities, and it's stayed with me. No matter how small or inexperienced someone might appear, there's always the potential for something great. The smallest character usually rises to do great things. In the 86' movie, that was Hot Rod. In Beast Wars/Beast Machines, that was Cheetor. etc, etc.

Someone mentioned that Ultra Magnus was the one with all of the experience, when Hot Rod handed him the matrix. That's true, but he certainly wasn't the most resourceful and even stated he wasn't a leader just for having the obvious qualities people typically look for in one. He was a stereotype for leadership that I feel was written in for a reason. Don't trust what you feel you know about people based on the way they appear. Even the smallest person can surprise you with what they're capable of.

Anyway, that's just my take on it. It's a story I appreciate. Past that, in Season three...

[AllNewSuperRobot]

Still I don't see why such a description is baffling as it's a fact.

My point on contention is that this is given as something unique, that doesn't happen everywhere, in every era.

suddenly-deadly purple gun

See, now that is something that has always bothered me. Not that it came outta nowhere, but that it sounded the same, and was seemingly as powerful as his fusion cannon.

I think the gun isn't any stronger than any other (whose gun it was is quite the mystery)the difference comes down to battle damage. Megatron gets three to four direct hits on an open wound. Optimus might be God-Bot to some, but a focused assault will kill him just the same. Remember Megatron was not fatally wounded in this battle, Prime was. Before or after the gunshots is open for debate.

I've never really liked the Autobots. However in all of G1, there are two exceptions: Springer and Rodimus Prime. Springer doesn't really need his merits to be sold.

Rodimus however, to me the main draw is the visible struggle he exhibits. Unlike Optimus Prime, Rodimus he has obvious doubts, guilt and doesn't always know the right thing to say and/or do. He is portrayed with the weight of the world on his shoulders. Visibly trying to come to terms with being "The Chosen One". In comparison Optimus is ridiculously perfect and that kind of leader doesn't exist.

One of my favourite G1 stories is a one-off called 'Peace'. Wherein the Last Decepticon falls and the War is "over". Rodimus, after so long a campaign, stands down. His reactions and motivations in that story come across with more earnest sincerity than anything I've ever read Prime say. The one who quits/dies and comes back at the drop of a hat without impact.

[ZeroWolf]

I remember Furman wrote a similar story about the end of the war where Rodimus wanted to stand down and went to choose a successor (choice was between ultra magnus or Springer, if I recall correctly ) however Furman being furman really hits home the line "it never ends..." as the last decepticon helps start another civil war. The last panel shows Rodimus in sorrow as the fighting breaks out once more.

The advert thing is applicable to more but it still doesn't change the fact that tf is still that. It was only beaten to market by he-man if I remember correctly

[Chibi Starscream]

I actually liked season 3 for the most part. The core Autobot group of Rodimus, Kup, Arcee, Blurr, and Wheelie grew on me so much that they became my favorite group of Autobots. I also both hated/loved Galvatron for his super power strength and his obvious insanity. Another character (though more minor) that I really liked, was Octane. He was a Decepticon, but he did what he wanted and was friends with Sandstorm. He also had a run in with Starscream's ghost and teamed up with him for a bit. I also really like the episode where Grimlock got genius level smarts after being zapped by a super computer, and created the Technobots.

Sure some things about Season 3 could have been better. The writing was ALWAYS super cheesy. Those were just the times. They could have stopped killing Optimus 3-4 times. The zombie episode was enough, even if the fight part with Hot Rod was funny...the epic death of Optimus' sacrifice to save the rest of the Autobot fleet by acting as a decoy was wasted and became meaningless after Optimus returned again, just to die again later...

Season 4...well...let's just admit it. It shouldn't have existed at all. Season 4 should have started with episode 1 of the Japanese only Headmasters.

[AllNewSuperRobot]

I remember Furman wrote a similar story about the end of the war where Rodimus wanted to stand down and went to choose a successor (choice was between ultra magnus or Springer, if I recall correctly ) however Furman being furman really hits home the line "it never ends..." as the last decepticon helps start another civil war. The last panel shows Rodimus in sorrow as the fighting breaks out once more.

That's the very story (the 1989 Annual), wasn't Furman though. A rarity in itself for G1.




The story with this iconic image.

Now as for the message above, our next question (please feel free to offer your own points of discussion after this one)

What's the Problem with (Sunbow) Season 4?

I'll start with two points I took issue with.

1)Prime shouldn't have been there. He was completely out of place and added nothing to the story.

2) Arcee and Daniel.... *Shudder*

[ZeroWolf]

Ah I was certain it was Furman but he was so prolific at the time I must have accredited it to him without really thinking about it. Live and learn

Prime was only there in the rebirth because they had promised his return in the Movie. The headmasters series did the right thing and killed him off again.

[AllNewSuperRobot]

Exactly. It's like I said before, they should have ignored the backlash, kept Prime dead and continued telling the story they wanted to.

[ZeroWolf]

That's just it though, the end of the movie promises his return so it was before the backlash was really felt. Though I can only assume that plans were there to do power master prime but things got changed and we got original prime back despite his toy not being on sale anymore.

I agree though, he should of stayed dead but I think that they underestimated what they were doing at the time and what they had going.

[AllNewSuperRobot]

That's just it though, the end of the movie promises his return so it was before the backlash was really felt. Though I can only assume that plans were there to do power master prime but things got changed and we got original prime back despite his toy not being on sale anymore.

I agree though, he should of stayed dead but I think that they underestimated what they were doing at the time and what they had going.

Oddly enough, only the UK release had that voice over at the end. I think that was a big mistake and shouldn't have been part of the film at all. It cheapens the impact of a character's death if at the end they say "don't worry he'll wake up from his Healing Coma soon enough"

[ZeroWolf]

I didn't realise that was only a UK thing (makes sense since we got the film later so they could see the carnage) but a healing coma helped duke in the gi joe movie

Though prime dying and coming back is just a thing the fiction does now, death has no meaning...just like dragonball. Now that I think about it, Prime must die almost every series, it's the laws of the universe (exception maybe car robots as that's not supposed to be optimus prime)

[AllNewSuperRobot]

I didn't realise that was only a UK thing (makes sense since we got the film later so they could see the carnage) but a healing coma helped duke in the gi joe movie

Though prime dying and coming back is just a thing the fiction does now, death has no meaning...just like dragonball. Now that I think about it, Prime must die almost every series, it's the laws of the universe (exception maybe car robots as that's not supposed to be optimus prime)

Oh wow I completely forgot about the GI Joe thing. Even seeing it as a kid, I remember that weirdly tacked on line at the end saying how Duke came out of his coma, thinking how incredibly stupid that was. He was visibly speared through the heart! He died.

It's funny that it's only when Prime dies that the story of Transformers progresses. It's almost as if his very existence holds the series back... At least in Beast Wars, his death was done in an interesting way, playing on his naiveté.

[ZeroWolf]

It's really bad when you look at the scene where they tossed that line in as the dialogue doesn't fit, guess it was too late for them to have the animation changed.

Problem with prime is that you can attempt to do something new with him but get criticised for not having him be prime like or you can stick to his G1 self and then get critiqued for keeping him a stereotype (the perfect leader). There is a way through it but you have to be really good. A way I thought around it would be have him there but don't focus on him, instead, focus on a better range of characters but then you'll be told off for not showing prime...You're dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.

[AllNewSuperRobot]

Infiltration was a good example of that. Prime wasn't even in it and it was the first main story arc of IDW Transformers.

As he shouldn't be. Oddly enough, Leaders don't appear at the frontline of every battle and a "War" is fought on multiple fronts. Which why I liked Furman's initial pitch that Earth was nothing special, just another battlefield in the Cybertronian Civil War. I don't get why they changed that?

[ZeroWolf]

Well Furman set it up that earth was special as shock wave planted his special ore there (originally to produce better Energon, then later one of the thirteen ores he needed for dark Cybertron, another case of building on Furman's story hooks) hence why they were drawn to earth as it was giving good Energon readings and provided a powered up fuel (hence why starscream thought he could topple megatron in infiltration) of course he also threw in another thread about the machination and their plan using headmaster tech (which scorpoknok masterminded). I figured all hail megatron took place on earth as that was where he won so it made sense to begin his empire from there. It wasn't until after dark Cybertron they began to hint there was more going on with earth, then hiding a titan under the surface and saying it was a colony world. Now as to why they did this? I think it was because earth has always been a battleground for the Transformers, hence a way to connect them with us and to get them using that "robots in disguise" line from time to time though admittedly thats only true with the beginning as it's quickly forgotten as story demands. While we get stretches where were only on cybertron or other alien world's they will always return to earth because as Furman says: "it never ends..."

[Yankee0]

Prime was only there in the rebirth because they had promised his return in the Movie.

What the absolute Dickens!?!

I have lived in the UK my entire life, watched Transformers the Movie many times, spanning between the 80s to date, across multiple formats including VHS, 2 different DVD releases and Blu-ray, all the way through to the end of the credits and had never, ever, ever so much as heard of, let alone actually heard, that voiceover until I just saw this and looked it up online!

[ZeroWolf]

live and learn my friend, live and learn I can't say for certain in the vhs release I had but it was definitely in the dvd copy (was released in the collectors tin for the 20th anniversary I recall)

[Yankee0]

Indeed, and I would appear to have plenty left to learn!

Started to doubt myself so just sat through 3 different versions of Rodimus marking the end of the Cybertronion war, and not a sausage (or indeed a caesium salami)! I am flabbergasted!

Anyway, the problem with season 4 was...

1) It was too short. I actually quite liked it, in so much as it added something slightly different in the addition of organic/transformer interface, and it would have been interesting to see this develop, along with Zarak plotting against Galvatron (maybe this was further addressed in Headmasters but despite repeated attempts at viewing it, I can't get over the terrible English dub)

2) Snapdragon decided to spit not swallow

[WreckerJack]

Some characters just get less screen time than others. I wish they would move away from the big three and give there others some attention. There is a wealth of awesome characters out there in the Transformers universe yet we continue to stick to the same ones.

I understand that Hasbro needs to use the big three as I call it for brand recognition. Optimus, Bumblebee and Megatron. They are all main characters, central to the story and at least in the case of Optimus and Bee their colors are eye catching so that people recognize them on a shelf.

The other answer I can tell you is it's a safe investment. If you look at the toylines we are seeing a lot of throwback to G1 which is something that is selling rather well. With Combiner Wars, Titans Return and now Power of the Primes being somewhat based on some G1 concepts and characters we can see why the Transformers Authentics or Evergreen line is being modeled with some very G1 designs. Even the new cyberverse line looks very G1. This boils down to the over use of some characters. (Though I will point out that of all the cool toys we got in the Prime Wars trilogy they didn't get much screen time unless the ones featured in the machinima series)

I have honestly been enjoying a lot of the toys recently but I would love it if they did something different to shake things up. Safe investments aren't safe if they become too stale. The IDW comics are begging for a toyline and underused characters are begging for exposure (and toys can be made of them for something different and exciting!) I don't know what Hasbro is waiting for!

[AllNewSuperRobot]

Well Furman set it up that earth was special as shock wave planted his special ore there (originally to produce better Energon, then later one of the thirteen ores he needed for dark Cybertron, another case of building on Furman's story hooks) hence why they were drawn to earth as it was giving good Energon readings and provided a powered up fuel (hence why starscream thought he could topple megatron in infiltration) of course he also threw in another thread about the machination and their plan using headmaster tech (which scorpoknok masterminded). I figured all hail megatron took place on earth as that was where he won so it made sense to begin his empire from there. It wasn't until after dark Cybertron they began to hint there was more going on with earth, then hiding a titan under the surface and saying it was a colony world. Now as to why they did this? I think it was because earth has always been a battleground for the Transformers, hence a way to connect them with us and to get them using that "robots in disguise" line from time to time though admittedly thats only true with the beginning as it's quickly forgotten as story demands. While we get stretches where were only on cybertron or other alien world's they will always return to earth because as Furman says: "it never ends..."

On the flipside of Earth's increased profile, IDW Nebulos... You could argue Nebulos is equally as important to Transformers as Earth, as it gave rise to the 2nd Generation (Headmasters, Target, Power etc) but not in IDWverse.

Anyway, the problem with season 4 was...

1) It was too short. I actually quite liked it, in so much as it added something slightly different in the addition of organic/transformer interface, and it would have been interesting to see this develop, along with Zarak plotting against Galvatron (maybe this was further addressed in Headmasters but despite repeated attempts at viewing it, I can't get over the terrible English dub)

2) Snapdragon decided to spit not swallow

I actually really liked The Rebirth. I've tried to watch the Takara Series, but it's so bad. Hasbro made the right call not to bring it to the West. Not as bad as I found Beast Wars 2 but.. certainly more Lost in translation. Arcee as a secretary, Sixshot as a "ninja" etc I would have liked to see where Sunbow would have gone had Season 4 continued. Hopefully animated by the studio behind the Call of The Primitives episode. A whole season done to that standard would have been impressive.

Some characters just get less screen time than others. I wish they would move away from the big three and give there others some attention. There is a wealth of awesome characters out there in the Transformers universe yet we continue to stick to the same ones.

I understand that Hasbro needs to use the big three as I call it for brand recognition. Optimus, Bumblebee and Megatron. They are all main characters, central to the story and at least in the case of Optimus and Bee their colors are eye catching so that people recognize them on a shelf.

The other answer I can tell you is it's a safe investment. If you look at the toylines we are seeing a lot of throwback to G1 which is something that is selling rather well. With Combiner Wars, Titans Return and now Power of the Primes being somewhat based on some G1 concepts and characters we can see why the Transformers Authentics or Evergreen line is being modeled with some very G1 designs. Even the new cyberverse line looks very G1. This boils down to the over use of some characters. (Though I will point out that of all the cool toys we got in the Prime Wars trilogy they didn't get much screen time unless the ones featured in the machinima series)

It's funny every time they decide to remove the big three, they end that series. Beast Machines for example, I would have been more interested in seeing Cybertron and the Transformers post-reformatting. That being the furthest point in the future G1 has ever been shown.

[ZeroWolf]

There was more plans for a sequel to beast machines but reception killed it hence why car robots was dubbed. Also please don't judge headmasters solely by the horribly hilarious dub that it got...(this is a general announcement) I prefer the headmasters to the rebirth as it's easier to get my head around then binary bonding (plus masterforce is amazing and destroys all that came before it) earth is still more important then nebulos for the sole reason that it's where it began (story wise) also you can't call targetmasters and the like the 2nd generation as 1) we obviously have generation 2 (an attempt to revive the franchise with redecos in neon colours as well as new toys and 2) the -masters are actually the 4th generation by your reasoning

[AllNewSuperRobot]

There was more plans for a sequel to beast machines but reception killed it hence why car robots was dubbed. Also please don't judge headmasters solely by the horribly hilarious dub that it got...(this is a general announcement) I prefer the headmasters to the rebirth as it's easier to get my head around then binary bonding (plus masterforce is amazing and destroys all that came before it) earth is still more important then nebulos for the sole reason that it's where it began (story wise) also you can't call targetmasters and the like the 2nd generation as 1) we obviously have generation 2 (an attempt to revive the franchise with redecos in neon colours as well as new toys and 2) the -masters are actually the 4th generation by your reasoning

That's why I was careful with my wording to say "2nd Generation" not G2. You're quite right though. In my own Head Canon, the Post-Movie Transformers were the Second Generation, which would put the -Masters as third gen... I don't recall any such leap in technology/design in between The Movie and Rebirth.

Technically Re-G1 removed G2 from canon however (as well as a sizable chunk of the Superior UK TF series).

I've tried a lot more with the Takara Series than BW2, which I didn't go beyond the pilot. While I do applaud them for getting rid of Prime straight away, it just doesn't do anything for me. Plus there is a lot of martial arts and high kicks which is outright visually bizarre and wrong in my eyes. Plus I can't forgive Galvatron being defeated by The Power of Friendship

[ZeroWolf]

I counted the Combiners as the true 2nd generation (bumps roddy to 3rd and so on)

Ah but I was strictly talking generation 2 the toyline which sadly wasn't retconned (:lol:) also reg1 only goes towards the comic timeline and only if you choose to use it as you are still in your right to say, "screw it, reg1 doesn't count...megs kills bludgeon!"

Also don't knock the power of friendship! It's saved a lot of lives in anime plus galvatron wasn't all that...did you see his plans? It's a good thing he was dispatched, though I would have preferred it if God Ginrai had done him

[AllNewSuperRobot]

Yep, Combiners as Second Generation, I can see that.

Although I did have G2 Megatron (in purple) and I thought it better than his traditional Gun Mode.

Catching up with the comics backwards as I am, Re-G1 has been in a couple of volumes of the Part Work already. I can't say I like it so far. It seems a little..dumb and not really inkeeping with G1 as it was, since a lot of the characterisations don't seem to match that era and more reflect Modern/IDW incarnations IE Ultra Magnus isn't his G1 badass self.

Yes... Planet Galvatron. You can't really sell the Takara series by saying the only 'off' part was the dub...

[ZeroWolf]

Lol also a lot of people said that Furman was losing his touch when he did reg1 which I can kinda see but I think what it was he was trying to get into the mindset of himself when the original run finished which given the long time gap it just wasn't going to happen (at least not without being really lucky)

As for the Takara series,I liked it, but then I do love my anime

Edit: I hate predicted text

[AllNewSuperRobot]

Still no nibbles? Ok, Next question:

So whats the problem with Mass Displacement?

I have spoken to many TF fans over the years and some really do seem polarised when it comes to this concept.

To me it comes back to the part that there are people who can't accept that Transformers aren't just Giant Robots, they are Giant Alien Robots. Their technology does not and should not reflect our own.

Megatron transforms from a 50ft robot into a hand gun that is light enough for a human being to hold.

A Gestalt, upon combining, achieves a height and scale that surpasses the dimensions of it's component parts.

Galvatron piloting Cyclonus etc etc

This has always been one of the higher concept Sci-Fi elements I've really enjoyed in Transformers. So I can't understand the viewpoint of those who don't seem to get it