The Energon Pub

I was thinking about this earlier today. During the original series I always thought it was kind of weird how the Decepticons, who could fly with out the assistance of an alt mode, tended to have the monopoly on aircraft alt modes. The autobots on the other hand with only a few of their number being able to fly with out the aid of an alt mode tended to have more land based transformations.

Now to me this seems a little strange. The reason being you would figure that the Autobots would have more of their guys being able to transform into aircraft so they could have access to air support. Likewise I would figure the Decepticons to have more ground based transformers because of their ability to fly.

Why do you guys think this is?

Well, I remember the episode when the Stunticons and Aerialbots were created, that they were both designed to help counter both efforts in Decepticon flying and Autobot non flying.

I never understood why the ALL Decepticons could fly, but it is what it is.

Ultimately I think it comes down to the fact that Decepticons were designed for war and the Autobots were workers.

Dreamwave had an interesting take on it, whereby Megatron had various upgrades applied to anyone who joined his cause. While some Decepticons-to-be, such as Thundercracker, already had enhanced strength and flight abilities, Megatron had established a series of (painful) procedures that would grant such powers to all his recruits.

Originaly they were called Autobots because they transformed into automobile's.

I always thought the reason the Decepticons could fly in robot mode was because they could fly in alt. mode. Granted Megatron, Soundwave, and Reflector ... well .... wizard did it.

PrimeNumber wrote:I always thought the reason the Decepticons could fly in robot mode was because they could fly in alt. mode. Granted Megatron, Soundwave, and Reflector ... well .... wizard did it.

It was no wizard. Just the application of physics101.

Megatron, Soundwave and Reflector don't mass-shift. Conservation of mass don't allow that. They simply do density-shift. They grow in size, but not their mass. Mass stays the same. Volume expands. Much like a baloon.

The end result is that, they'll have a density that is lighter than air. Hence, they float. With a little gun-powder thrust, they can move around the air. So they fly.

(Editor's Note: Megatron is generous enough to share his load of gun-poweder with trusted Soundwave and peeping-tom Reflector.)

Auto Bot wrote:

PrimeNumber wrote:I always thought the reason the Decepticons could fly in robot mode was because they could fly in alt. mode. Granted Megatron, Soundwave, and Reflector ... well .... wizard did it.

It was no wizard. Just the application of physics101.

Megatron, Soundwave and Reflector don't mass-shift. Conservation of mass don't allow that. They simply do density-shift. They grow in size, but not their mass. Mass stays the same. Volume expands. Much like a baloon.

The end result is that, they'll have a density that is lighter than air. Hence, they float. With a little gun-powder thrust, they can move around the air. So they fly.

(Editor's Note: Megatron is generous enough to share his load of gun-poweder with trusted Soundwave and peeping-tom Reflector.)

If such were the case, they would be battle lightweights, tossed about the battlefield like ragdolls with armor with the effectiveness of aluminium foil.

They flew because they had access to some flight technology, or because the writers were lazy.

Lorekeeper wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

PrimeNumber wrote:I always thought the reason the Decepticons could fly in robot mode was because they could fly in alt. mode. Granted Megatron, Soundwave, and Reflector ... well .... wizard did it.

It was no wizard. Just the application of physics101.

Megatron, Soundwave and Reflector don't mass-shift. Conservation of mass don't allow that. They simply do density-shift. They grow in size, but not their mass. Mass stays the same. Volume expands. Much like a baloon.

The end result is that, they'll have a density that is lighter than air. Hence, they float. With a little gun-powder thrust, they can move around the air. So they fly.

(Editor's Note: Megatron is generous enough to share his load of gun-poweder with trusted Soundwave and peeping-tom Reflector.)

If such were the case, they would be battle lightweights, tossed about the battlefield like ragdolls with armor with the effectiveness of aluminium foil.

They flew because they had access to some flight technology, or because the writers were lazy.

They would not literally be like balloons. Only the weight is like the balloons.

It's not skin bag filled with air.

It's a more advance form of density-shift. The voids or tiny spaces between each molecule of Cybertronian metal, will expand. Each molecule situated father apart. In between these molecules will be "locked-in" vacuum.

So the blocks of metal will still be as solid as ever. Only very light. Like a super-form of aluminum.

Auto Bot wrote:

PrimeNumber wrote:I always thought the reason the Decepticons could fly in robot mode was because they could fly in alt. mode. Granted Megatron, Soundwave, and Reflector ... well .... wizard did it.

It was no wizard. Just the application of physics101.

Megatron, Soundwave and Reflector don't mass-shift. Conservation of mass don't allow that. They simply do density-shift. They grow in size, but not their mass. Mass stays the same. Volume expands. Much like a baloon.

The end result is that, they'll have a density that is lighter than air. Hence, they float. With a little gun-powder thrust, they can move around the air. So they fly.

(Editor's Note: Megatron is generous enough to share his load of gun-poweder with trusted Soundwave and peeping-tom Reflector.)

....Megatron shares his load of gun-powder with Soundwave and Reflector? Like Tinkerbell? What would Soundwave's happy thought be?

juushinkan wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

PrimeNumber wrote:I always thought the reason the Decepticons could fly in robot mode was because they could fly in alt. mode. Granted Megatron, Soundwave, and Reflector ... well .... wizard did it.

It was no wizard. Just the application of physics101.

Megatron, Soundwave and Reflector don't mass-shift. Conservation of mass don't allow that. They simply do density-shift. They grow in size, but not their mass. Mass stays the same. Volume expands. Much like a baloon.

The end result is that, they'll have a density that is lighter than air. Hence, they float. With a little gun-powder thrust, they can move around the air. So they fly.

(Editor's Note: Megatron is generous enough to share his load of gun-poweder with trusted Soundwave and peeping-tom Reflector.)

....Megatron shares his load of gun-powder with Soundwave and Reflector? Like Tinkerbell? What would Soundwave's happy thought be?

Beats me. They just want to fly.

Wasn't it explained in seson two?
The Optimus Prime orgen were the Airialbots go back in time and find out about how the war started.
It said that fliing was one of the main Decepticons recruiting reasons, why be and autobt if you can fly oce your a Con?

Dead Metal wrote:Wasn't it explained in seson two?
The Optimus Prime orgen were the Airialbots go back in time and find out about how the war started.
It said that fliing was one of the main Decepticons recruiting reasons, why be and autobt if you can fly oce your a Con?

Con.


noun
1. process or act of flying: the process or act of moving through the air or through space

2. air trip: a trip through air or space in a form of transportation
daily flights of a thousand miles or more

3. travel scheduled flight: a scheduled flight with a commercial airline, usually designated by letters and numbers
flight TC546 to Vancouver

4. ability to fly: the ability to travel through the air with wings
an experimental ultralight tested for flight
an ancient bird incapable of flight

Auto Bot wrote:

Lorekeeper wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

PrimeNumber wrote:I always thought the reason the Decepticons could fly in robot mode was because they could fly in alt. mode. Granted Megatron, Soundwave, and Reflector ... well .... wizard did it.

It was no wizard. Just the application of physics101.

Megatron, Soundwave and Reflector don't mass-shift. Conservation of mass don't allow that. They simply do density-shift. They grow in size, but not their mass. Mass stays the same. Volume expands. Much like a baloon.

The end result is that, they'll have a density that is lighter than air. Hence, they float. With a little gun-powder thrust, they can move around the air. So they fly.

(Editor's Note: Megatron is generous enough to share his load of gun-poweder with trusted Soundwave and peeping-tom Reflector.)

If such were the case, they would be battle lightweights, tossed about the battlefield like ragdolls with armor with the effectiveness of aluminium foil.

They flew because they had access to some flight technology, or because the writers were lazy.

They would not literally be like balloons. Only the weight is like the balloons.

It's not skin bag filled with air.

It's a more advance form of density-shift. The voids or tiny spaces between each molecule of Cybertronian metal, will expand. Each molecule situated father apart. In between these molecules will be "locked-in" vacuum.

So the blocks of metal will still be as solid as ever. Only very light. Like a super-form of aluminum.

Yes, they would be like balloons, that's how density works. They might not pop, but they wouldn't have the weight to resist punches and kicks. That, or you have a 10-ton tapedeck.

Lorekeeper wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

Lorekeeper wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

PrimeNumber wrote:I always thought the reason the Decepticons could fly in robot mode was because they could fly in alt. mode. Granted Megatron, Soundwave, and Reflector ... well .... wizard did it.

It was no wizard. Just the application of physics101.

Megatron, Soundwave and Reflector don't mass-shift. Conservation of mass don't allow that. They simply do density-shift. They grow in size, but not their mass. Mass stays the same. Volume expands. Much like a baloon.

The end result is that, they'll have a density that is lighter than air. Hence, they float. With a little gun-powder thrust, they can move around the air. So they fly.

(Editor's Note: Megatron is generous enough to share his load of gun-poweder with trusted Soundwave and peeping-tom Reflector.)

If such were the case, they would be battle lightweights, tossed about the battlefield like ragdolls with armor with the effectiveness of aluminium foil.

They flew because they had access to some flight technology, or because the writers were lazy.

They would not literally be like balloons. Only the weight is like the balloons.

It's not skin bag filled with air.

It's a more advance form of density-shift. The voids or tiny spaces between each molecule of Cybertronian metal, will expand. Each molecule situated father apart. In between these molecules will be "locked-in" vacuum.

So the blocks of metal will still be as solid as ever. Only very light. Like a super-form of aluminum.

Yes, they would be like balloons, that's how density works. They might not pop, but they wouldn't have the weight to resist punches and kicks. That, or you have a 10-ton tapedeck.

I'll chose "that". Hehe.

Notice how easily Prime lifts Megs from the shoulder and sling him around? Need not flex a muscle!

Auto Bot wrote:

PrimeNumber wrote:I always thought the reason the Decepticons could fly in robot mode was because they could fly in alt. mode. Granted Megatron, Soundwave, and Reflector ... well .... wizard did it.

It was no wizard. Just the application of physics101.

Megatron, Soundwave and Reflector don't mass-shift. Conservation of mass don't allow that. They simply do density-shift. They grow in size, but not their mass. Mass stays the same. Volume expands. Much like a baloon.

Was this intended to be a joke?In the case of Soundwave and Megatron in the G1 toon Soundwave does indeed "mass-shift".It was showen on a more then one episode Soundwave being picked up and carried by a human and it happened with Megatron once in the G1 toon.In the comice Soundwave and Megatron were always being carried by humans.
If all they were doing was a density-shift then their weight would remain the same in both modes...meaning that ether a human could not lift them in alt-mode or that any TF could easyly throw them around in robot mode.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

PrimeNumber wrote:I always thought the reason the Decepticons could fly in robot mode was because they could fly in alt. mode. Granted Megatron, Soundwave, and Reflector ... well .... wizard did it.

It was no wizard. Just the application of physics101.

Megatron, Soundwave and Reflector don't mass-shift. Conservation of mass don't allow that. They simply do density-shift. They grow in size, but not their mass. Mass stays the same. Volume expands. Much like a baloon.

Was this intended to be a joke?In the case of Soundwave and Megatron in the G1 toon Soundwave does indeed "mass-shift".It was showen on a more then one episode Soundwave being picked up and carried by a human and it happened with Megatron once in the G1 toon.In the comice Soundwave and Megatron were always being carried by humans.
If all they were doing was a density-shift then their weight would remain the same in both modes...meaning that ether a human could not lift them in alt-mode or that any TF could easyly throw them around in robot mode.

I meant that their weight remains very light. Easily lifted by humans.

Which also explains why they can "fly".

juushinkan wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

PrimeNumber wrote:I always thought the reason the Decepticons could fly in robot mode was because they could fly in alt. mode. Granted Megatron, Soundwave, and Reflector ... well .... wizard did it.

It was no wizard. Just the application of physics101.

Megatron, Soundwave and Reflector don't mass-shift. Conservation of mass don't allow that. They simply do density-shift. They grow in size, but not their mass. Mass stays the same. Volume expands. Much like a baloon.

The end result is that, they'll have a density that is lighter than air. Hence, they float. With a little gun-powder thrust, they can move around the air. So they fly.

(Editor's Note: Megatron is generous enough to share his load of gun-poweder with trusted Soundwave and peeping-tom Reflector.)

....Megatron shares his load of gun-powder with Soundwave and Reflector? Like Tinkerbell? What would Soundwave's happy thought be?

His happy thought is Frenzy turning into Queen's greatest hits.

Auto Bot wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

PrimeNumber wrote:I always thought the reason the Decepticons could fly in robot mode was because they could fly in alt. mode. Granted Megatron, Soundwave, and Reflector ... well .... wizard did it.

It was no wizard. Just the application of physics101.

Megatron, Soundwave and Reflector don't mass-shift. Conservation of mass don't allow that. They simply do density-shift. They grow in size, but not their mass. Mass stays the same. Volume expands. Much like a baloon.

Was this intended to be a joke?In the case of Soundwave and Megatron in the G1 toon Soundwave does indeed "mass-shift".It was showen on a more then one episode Soundwave being picked up and carried by a human and it happened with Megatron once in the G1 toon.In the comice Soundwave and Megatron were always being carried by humans.
If all they were doing was a density-shift then their weight would remain the same in both modes...meaning that ether a human could not lift them in alt-mode or that any TF could easyly throw them around in robot mode.

I meant that their weight remains very light. Easily lifted by humans.

Which also explains why they can "fly".

If you mean that they could be lifted by humans in robot mode then why couldnt Brawn ,one of the strongest Autobots ,lift Megatron eazly durring a fight[ I cant remember the episode].But in the episode"fire on the mountin" Prime crashes into Megatron and then Megatron crases trew a wall in that mettel factory..........if he were a lite as you suggest he would have bounced of that wall and not crashed trew it.
Your theroy dosnt wake much sence.

Well, then, maybe they can mass or density shift as they'd like? One makes as much sense as the other.

And maybe they were powered by a magical extract of volatile matter called "energon." And maybe they'd evolved from lever-and-wheel mechaorganisms that paralleled organic evolution. Or maybe they were created whole-cloth from a god trapped in the body of a planet.

Or maybe we shouldn't try to explain too hard something we enjoyed thoroughly in our childhoods, lest the golden memories of our childhoods suffer from chipping and flaking...

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

PrimeNumber wrote:I always thought the reason the Decepticons could fly in robot mode was because they could fly in alt. mode. Granted Megatron, Soundwave, and Reflector ... well .... wizard did it.

It was no wizard. Just the application of physics101.

Megatron, Soundwave and Reflector don't mass-shift. Conservation of mass don't allow that. They simply do density-shift. They grow in size, but not their mass. Mass stays the same. Volume expands. Much like a baloon.

Was this intended to be a joke?In the case of Soundwave and Megatron in the G1 toon Soundwave does indeed "mass-shift".It was showen on a more then one episode Soundwave being picked up and carried by a human and it happened with Megatron once in the G1 toon.In the comice Soundwave and Megatron were always being carried by humans.
If all they were doing was a density-shift then their weight would remain the same in both modes...meaning that ether a human could not lift them in alt-mode or that any TF could easyly throw them around in robot mode.

I meant that their weight remains very light. Easily lifted by humans.

Which also explains why they can "fly".

If you mean that they could be lifted by humans in robot mode then why couldnt Brawn ,one of the strongest Autobots ,lift Megatron eazly durring a fight[ I cant remember the episode].But in the episode"fire on the mountin" Prime crashes into Megatron and then Megatron crases trew a wall in that mettel factory..........if he were a lite as you suggest he would have bounced of that wall and not crashed trew it.
Your theroy dosnt wake much sence.

I think a screw just fell of my head.

Hold on. I'll try to find it.

Auto Bot wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

PrimeNumber wrote:I always thought the reason the Decepticons could fly in robot mode was because they could fly in alt. mode. Granted Megatron, Soundwave, and Reflector ... well .... wizard did it.

It was no wizard. Just the application of physics101.

Megatron, Soundwave and Reflector don't mass-shift. Conservation of mass don't allow that. They simply do density-shift. They grow in size, but not their mass. Mass stays the same. Volume expands. Much like a baloon.

Was this intended to be a joke?In the case of Soundwave and Megatron in the G1 toon Soundwave does indeed "mass-shift".It was showen on a more then one episode Soundwave being picked up and carried by a human and it happened with Megatron once in the G1 toon.In the comice Soundwave and Megatron were always being carried by humans.
If all they were doing was a density-shift then their weight would remain the same in both modes...meaning that ether a human could not lift them in alt-mode or that any TF could easyly throw them around in robot mode.

I meant that their weight remains very light. Easily lifted by humans.

Which also explains why they can "fly".

If you mean that they could be lifted by humans in robot mode then why couldnt Brawn ,one of the strongest Autobots ,lift Megatron eazly durring a fight[ I cant remember the episode].But in the episode"fire on the mountin" Prime crashes into Megatron and then Megatron crases trew a wall in that mettel factory..........if he were a lite as you suggest he would have bounced of that wall and not crashed trew it.
Your theroy dosnt wake much sence.

I think a screw just fell of my head.

Hold on. I'll try to find it.

Was that an insult

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

PrimeNumber wrote:I always thought the reason the Decepticons could fly in robot mode was because they could fly in alt. mode. Granted Megatron, Soundwave, and Reflector ... well .... wizard did it.

It was no wizard. Just the application of physics101.

Megatron, Soundwave and Reflector don't mass-shift. Conservation of mass don't allow that. They simply do density-shift. They grow in size, but not their mass. Mass stays the same. Volume expands. Much like a baloon.

Was this intended to be a joke?In the case of Soundwave and Megatron in the G1 toon Soundwave does indeed "mass-shift".It was showen on a more then one episode Soundwave being picked up and carried by a human and it happened with Megatron once in the G1 toon.In the comice Soundwave and Megatron were always being carried by humans.
If all they were doing was a density-shift then their weight would remain the same in both modes...meaning that ether a human could not lift them in alt-mode or that any TF could easyly throw them around in robot mode.

I meant that their weight remains very light. Easily lifted by humans.

Which also explains why they can "fly".

If you mean that they could be lifted by humans in robot mode then why couldnt Brawn ,one of the strongest Autobots ,lift Megatron eazly durring a fight[ I cant remember the episode].But in the episode"fire on the mountin" Prime crashes into Megatron and then Megatron crases trew a wall in that mettel factory..........if he were a lite as you suggest he would have bounced of that wall and not crashed trew it.
Your theroy dosnt wake much sence.

I think a screw just fell of my head.

Hold on. I'll try to find it.

Was that an insult

Nah. I just ran out of ideas. Would it be bad to give me some time to replenish my brain juice?

Auto Bot wrote:Nah. I just ran out of ideas. Would it be bad to give me some time to replenish my brain juice?

Take all the time you need It was an interesting idea but it didnt jive with the established facts.

Why could all Decepticons fly?

Because they had to run away at the end of each episode.

Edit: If you want to stick with the no-mass-shifting premise, it would be better to say that they had anti-gravity technology that acted both when they were flying, and when they were shrunken.

Basically, Soundwave would have ten tons of metal collapsed into his little tapedeck mode, but could reduce the pull of gravity on his body, allowing others to pick him up and carry him, and preventing him from sinking into the Earth when put down.

So he has the same mass, but different weight. One quasi-mystical technology solves two problems (flight and conservation of mass). This could also prevent him from being accidentally crushed in his alt-mode.

Edit II: The flaw in this concept, of course, is why can't Blaster and Perceptor fly?

Because you've just come up with a theory that works less-well than that of mass-shifting?