The Energon Pub

Auto Bot wrote:

Leonardo wrote:You're right, Auto Bot, it is fun to discuss it if people want to.

But I don't follow, if they're limited by human technology, how come they can drive / pilot themselves, communicate and transform?

Those are not added exceptional capabilities. Those things you mentioned are built-in to their being sentient.

And Earth vehicles aren't sentient, so if they can still perform their sentient-conditional capabilities while in alt.mode, then their alt.modes aren't limited. I'm not even sure why transforming and self-propulsion are in a different category to accelerating really fast. Maybe Stasrscream is the only one who has the ability to accelerate that fast, thus explaining why Brawl didn't.

Leonardo wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

Leonardo wrote:You're right, Auto Bot, it is fun to discuss it if people want to.

But I don't follow, if they're limited by human technology, how come they can drive / pilot themselves, communicate and transform?

Those are not added exceptional capabilities. Those things you mentioned are built-in to their being sentient.

And Earth vehicles aren't sentient, so if they can still perform their sentient-conditional capabilities while in alt.mode, then their alt.modes aren't limited. I'm not even sure what transforming and self-propulsion have to do with them being sentient or why those features are in a different category to accelerating really fast. Maybe Stasrscream is the only one who has the ability to accelerate that fast, thus explaining why Brawl didn't.

Nothing. Being sentient means being alive. It has nothing to do with some super capabilities.
Our modern cars can be said to be "alive" in a limited kind of way. Like it has circuitry to automatically diagnose itself (my car has this feature), decide when and how much pressure to apply to each individual brakes, stability control, etc. Transformers' sentient features is akin to that.
This is just a fiction based categorizing. Assuming that they are really alive.
Simply put, they perform like earth vehicles
when in alt mode. Their only difference from earth vehicles is that they happen to be alive. That's why they can talk and drive themselves.

Anyway, this line of logic is based from the movie itself. Observe how all their alt modes behave, and whatever extra capabilities they have or don't have.

I'm actually reinforcing the storyline of this 2007 Movie.

Plus, to point out the pathetically simple blunder Bay dished out at the end of the Movie.

So it's like i'm building up Bay's Movie +90%, while giving Bay himself -10% for the blunder.

To all of you Bay die-hard fans, this is a cause for rejoice.

Auto Bot wrote:Nothing. Being sentient means being alive. It has nothing to do with some super capabilities.
Our modern cars can be said to be "alive" in a limited kind of way. Like it has circuitry to automatically diagnose itself (my car has this feature), decide when and how much pressure to apply to each individual brakes, stability control, etc. Transformers' sentient features is akin to that.
This is just a fiction based categorizing. Assuming that they are really alive.
Simply put, they perform like earth vehicles
when in alt mode. Their only difference from earth vehicles is that they happen to be alive. That's why they can talk and drive themselves.

Yes, I changed my post because I didn't mean to talk about sentience. I think we're in agreement that self-propulsion, etc. is part of sentience as they rely on some sort of sensory perception.

My point is, in this film, they didn't solely perform like Earth vehicles when in alt.mode, regardless of where the difference came from. And if there is a difference between their alt.modes and Earth vehicles, then they're obviously not limited. Basically, I would argue that transforming the way they do is a super-capability.

Leonardo wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:Nothing. Being sentient means being alive. It has nothing to do with some super capabilities.
Our modern cars can be said to be "alive" in a limited kind of way. Like it has circuitry to automatically diagnose itself (my car has this feature), decide when and how much pressure to apply to each individual brakes, stability control, etc. Transformers' sentient features is akin to that.
This is just a fiction based categorizing. Assuming that they are really alive.
Simply put, they perform like earth vehicles
when in alt mode. Their only difference from earth vehicles is that they happen to be alive. That's why they can talk and drive themselves.

Yes, I changed my post because I didn't mean to talk about sentience.
My point is, in this film, they didn't solely perform like Earth vehicles when in alt.mode, regardless of where the difference came from. And if there is a difference between their alt.modes and Earth vehicles, then they're obviously not limited.

I'm discussing this based solely on the movie itself, so far. I don't see how the movie supports that theory.

But still, i'll be interested to hear you pick out scenes from the movie to support this idea.

To say their alt modes and Earth vehicles has differences. Of course, yes. They're alive, and can manifest the fact that they are alive. (Such as talking, self-driving, etc.) And their metal parts are much tougher. Probably indestructible.

Other than those categories of qualities, their capabilities as a machine in alt mode, is pretty much defined by the function of the earth vehicles they copied themselves from. Such as cars can't fly, F-22 can't perform like a Saturn rocket, choppers can't take off without spinning their blades, and so on.

But if we are to go beyond what the 2007 Movie itself suggests, of course, the possibilities will be endless. And the super powers that you like them to have in alt mode can certainly be accounted for.

Auto Bot wrote:

Leonardo wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:Nothing. Being sentient means being alive. It has nothing to do with some super capabilities.
Our modern cars can be said to be "alive" in a limited kind of way. Like it has circuitry to automatically diagnose itself (my car has this feature), decide when and how much pressure to apply to each individual brakes, stability control, etc. Transformers' sentient features is akin to that.
This is just a fiction based categorizing. Assuming that they are really alive.
Simply put, they perform like earth vehicles
when in alt mode. Their only difference from earth vehicles is that they happen to be alive. That's why they can talk and drive themselves.

Yes, I changed my post because I didn't mean to talk about sentience.
My point is, in this film, they didn't solely perform like Earth vehicles when in alt.mode, regardless of where the difference came from. And if there is a difference between their alt.modes and Earth vehicles, then they're obviously not limited.

I'm discussing this based solely on the movie itself, so far. I don't see how the movie supports that theory.

But still, i'll be interested to hear you pick out scenes from the movie to support this idea.

To say their alt modes and Earth vehicles has differences. Of course, yes. They're alive, and can manifest the fact that they are alive. (Such as talking, self-driving, etc.) And their metal parts are much tougher. Probably indestructible.

Other than those categories of qualities, their capabilities as a machine in alt mode, is pretty much defined by the function of the earth vehicles they copied themselves from. Such as cars can't fly, F-22 can't perform like a Saturn rocket, choppers can't take off without spinning their blades, and so on.

But if we are to go beyond what the 2007 Movie itself suggests, of course, the possibilities will be endless. And the super powers that you like them to have in alt mode can certainly be accounted for.

But, as a machine, isn't transforming a super capability?

Leonardo wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

Leonardo wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:Nothing. Being sentient means being alive. It has nothing to do with some super capabilities.
Our modern cars can be said to be "alive" in a limited kind of way. Like it has circuitry to automatically diagnose itself (my car has this feature), decide when and how much pressure to apply to each individual brakes, stability control, etc. Transformers' sentient features is akin to that.
This is just a fiction based categorizing. Assuming that they are really alive.
Simply put, they perform like earth vehicles
when in alt mode. Their only difference from earth vehicles is that they happen to be alive. That's why they can talk and drive themselves.

Yes, I changed my post because I didn't mean to talk about sentience.
My point is, in this film, they didn't solely perform like Earth vehicles when in alt.mode, regardless of where the difference came from. And if there is a difference between their alt.modes and Earth vehicles, then they're obviously not limited.

I'm discussing this based solely on the movie itself, so far. I don't see how the movie supports that theory.

But still, i'll be interested to hear you pick out scenes from the movie to support this idea.

To say their alt modes and Earth vehicles has differences. Of course, yes. They're alive, and can manifest the fact that they are alive. (Such as talking, self-driving, etc.) And their metal parts are much tougher. Probably indestructible.

Other than those categories of qualities, their capabilities as a machine in alt mode, is pretty much defined by the function of the earth vehicles they copied themselves from. Such as cars can't fly, F-22 can't perform like a Saturn rocket, choppers can't take off without spinning their blades, and so on.

But if we are to go beyond what the 2007 Movie itself suggests, of course, the possibilities will be endless. And the super powers that you like them to have in alt mode can certainly be accounted for.

But, as a machine, isn't transforming a super capability?

In a way, you can say that.

But transforming is part of their regular capability. All of them have that capability. (Except Scorponok's case is not clear. Didn't transform in the movie, but the toy can transform)

Transforming is not part of the alt mode's capability.

Also, it's not even a super capability. It's a regular stuff that all of them can do.

As opposed to... not all of them can fly, not all of them can run at high speed, etc...

Auto Bot wrote:In a way, you can say that.

But transforming is part of their regular capability. All of them have that capability. (Except Scorponok's case is not clear. Didn't transform in the movie, but the toy can transform)

Transforming is not part of the alt mode's capability.

Also, it's not even a super capability. It's a regular stuff that all of them can do.

As opposed to... not all of them can fly, not all of them can run at high speed, etc...

Yes, but that ability, which is regular to the Cybertronians, is not regular to Earth vehicles. Since we see that the Cybertronians who are disguised as Earth vehicles can perform this capability, that to me suggests their alt.modes aren't limited because when they're in those alt.modes, they can perform a mechanical process that Earth vehicles can't. Now, that's not to say that the alt.modes can achieve other feats or super-capabilities. There's no evidence that they can. However, I do feel that being able to perform at least one mechanical process that our vehicles can't suggests that they are not entirely limited. They can do, at the very least, that one extra thing. Anything beyond that is speculation.

Whether or not that means Starscream can accelerate to super-speeds is a different issue. Personally, I don't believe he necessarily can because we don't really see evidence of it (other than him burning up) but even if he could, why would he? There aren't any Transformers left who can chase him so all he would have to do is outrun any Earth vehicles that could be in pursuit (I doubt there are any doing that, by the by).

Leonardo wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:In a way, you can say that.

But transforming is part of their regular capability. All of them have that capability. (Except Scorponok's case is not clear. Didn't transform in the movie, but the toy can transform)

Transforming is not part of the alt mode's capability.

Also, it's not even a super capability. It's a regular stuff that all of them can do.

As opposed to... not all of them can fly, not all of them can run at high speed, etc...

Yes, but that ability, which is regular to the Cybertronians, is not regular to Earth vehicles. Since we see that the Cybertronians who are disguised as Earth vehicles can perform this capability, that to me suggests their alt.modes aren't limited because when they're in those alt.modes, they can perform a mechanical process that Earth vehicles can't. Now, that's not to say that the alt.modes can achieve other feats or super-capabilities. There's no evidence that they can. However, I do feel that being able to perform at least one mechanical process that our vehicles can't suggests that they are not entirely limited. They can do, at the very least, that one extra thing. Anything beyond that is speculation.

Whether or not that means Starscream can accelerate to super-speeds is a different issue. Personally, I don't believe he necessarily can because we don't really see evidence of it (other than him burning up) but even if he could, why would he? There aren't any Transformers left who can chase him so all he would have to do is outrun any Earth vehicles that could be in pursuit (I doubt there are any doing that, by the by).

That's not one extra thing. They can transform. They can talk. They can drive. They can open doors.

That's why they are called Transformers. These abilities are built-in. No matter what mode or state they're in.

They're not considered part of the alt mode's capability.

They are instead, part of the sentient being's capabilities.

Without it, they're not Transformers.

So are you treating the alt.mode as being, in some way[s], separate from the sentient portion of the Transformer?

I'm of the mind that the alt.mode and the sentient part are parts of the same thing, given that the alt.mode is a cosmetic change. I still see the transformation as being a capability of the alt.mode and the robot mode.

Leonardo wrote:So are you treating the alt.mode as being, in some way[s], separate from the sentient portion of the Transformer?

I'm of the mind that the alt.mode and the sentient part are parts of the same thing, given that the alt.mode is a cosmetic change. I still see the transformation as being a capability of the alt.mode and the robot mode.

Not at all. I'm only categorizing the ability of their alt mode.

They have a variety of capabilities beyond an ordinary earth vehicle. But wrapped in the alt mode form, they can't use them. They have to transform to effect some capabilities.

That's why "transforming" is not solely for the purpose of disguise.

Auto Bot wrote:

Leonardo wrote:So are you treating the alt.mode as being, in some way[s], separate from the sentient portion of the Transformer?

I'm of the mind that the alt.mode and the sentient part are parts of the same thing, given that the alt.mode is a cosmetic change. I still see the transformation as being a capability of the alt.mode and the robot mode.

Not at all. I'm only categorizing the ability of their alt mode.

They have a variety of capabilities beyond an ordinary earth vehicle. But wrapped in the alt mode form, they can't use them. They have to transform to effect some capabilities.

That's why "transforming" is not solely for the purpose of disguise.

Yes, I see that. I'm just saying that by being able to transform they can do more than Earth vehicles because I see transforming as a capability of both the robot mode and the alt.mode.

Leonardo wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

Leonardo wrote:So are you treating the alt.mode as being, in some way[s], separate from the sentient portion of the Transformer?

I'm of the mind that the alt.mode and the sentient part are parts of the same thing, given that the alt.mode is a cosmetic change. I still see the transformation as being a capability of the alt.mode and the robot mode.

Not at all. I'm only categorizing the ability of their alt mode.

They have a variety of capabilities beyond an ordinary earth vehicle. But wrapped in the alt mode form, they can't use them. They have to transform to effect some capabilities.

That's why "transforming" is not solely for the purpose of disguise.

Yes, I see that. I'm just saying that by being able to transform they can do more than Earth vehicles because I see transforming as a capability of both the robot mode and the alt.mode.

Yeah. That's one of the abilities all of them have, beyond what earth vehicles can do.

I think we're going in circles! Does it make a difference if they can all do it? It still a special ability.

I don't know. It's not my intention to bring this topic so far.

I was just trying to point out Bay's blunder, and his seemingly lack of scientific knowledge.

Although he's got lots of fictional knowledge. Hehe.

I'm not the biggest fan of Bay (or this film) but I find myself wondering how much of it came from Bay and how much came from the writers. I mean, things like Starscream burning up as he flew, do you think that was in the script or did Bay add it just because he thought it looked good?

Leonardo wrote:I'm not the biggest fan of Bay (or this film) but I find myself wondering how much of it came from Bay and how much came from the writers. I mean, things like Starscream burning up as he flew, do you think that was in the script or did Bay add it just because he thought it looked good?

I believe it was Bay's fault.

Most likely, the script would say, "... as Starscream streaks thru the sky, and shoots up into the void..."

It will rest on Bay's shoulder on how to dramatize that into action. Considering Bay's seemingly low IQ on scientific facts, as repeatedly shown throughout the movie, the image of a meteor or a space shuttle entering the earth's atmosphere must have popped up in his head. He thought, by reversing the process, the same thing will occur. Just like rewinding the space shuttle entry.

So there you have it.

But this is just my opinion.