The Energon Pub

MINDVVIPE wrote:Thrust is pretty much a voyager by today's standards, so its fair its about 25-30 dollars.

If you put a Classics seeker next to a 1984 seeker, they're almost the same size.

GuyIncognito wrote:

MINDVVIPE wrote:Thrust is pretty much a voyager by today's standards, so its fair its about 25-30 dollars.

If you put a Classics seeker next to a 1984 seeker, they're almost the same size.

Oh, and smokescreen is much smaller too, haha. My mistake.

MINDVVIPE wrote:It all rounds out to about the same, exchanging things like die cast for better engineering... no?

That's my point! They've kept the prices the same (or lower) by using cheaper materials (plastic instead of die-cast), but also added better engineering.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's ridiculous for anyone to complain that "Hasbro is jacking up the prices."

MINDVVIPE wrote:Oh, and smokescreen is much smaller too, haha. My mistake.

ANOTHER fact that supports my point. Go grab any Classics/Generations Deluxe and compare it to the G1 original; the new Deluxes are much larger than the original Autobot cars. Bigger, cheaper, better engineering. Complain about them replacing die-cast metal with plastic if you want; that's a legit complaint. But complaints about prices just don't hold water in light of the facts.

GuyIncognito wrote:

MINDVVIPE wrote:It all rounds out to about the same, exchanging things like die cast for better engineering... no?

That's my point! They've kept the prices the same (or lower) by using cheaper materials (plastic instead of die-cast), but also added better engineering.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's ridiculous for anyone to complain that "Hasbro is jacking up the prices."

I was curious. My only complaint to hasbro is their focus on the legends/cyberverse line. It might be profitable for them, but as a collector who enjoys super fancy show pieces, it bums me out. Hopefully it's making money and serves to sustain deluxe and voyager lines. But after getting Blitzwing and springer and such, it's hard to complain, haha. No one will buy Warbot defender from me

Dang I completely missed this news. I actually like the clear plastic. Plus, I haven't been able to find any of the single packed figures at stores.

Also that "Predacons Rising" subtitle has me hoping that a deluxe jet vehicon will be coming.

STINGRAY749 wrote:Also that "Predacons Rising" subtitle has me hoping that a deluxe jet vehicon will be coming.

How? It's just a DVD.

Mindmaster wrote:

STINGRAY749 wrote:Also that "Predacons Rising" subtitle has me hoping that a deluxe jet vehicon will be coming.

How? It's just a DVD.

Because it's not just a DVD. It's a rebranding. If it were "just a DVD," they wouldn't have bothered to rebrand it with the Predacons Rising sub-line and make an entirely new box design.

RAcast wrote:

Mindmaster wrote:

STINGRAY749 wrote:Also that "Predacons Rising" subtitle has me hoping that a deluxe jet vehicon will be coming.

How? It's just a DVD.

Because it's not just a DVD. It's a rebranding. If it were "just a DVD," they wouldn't have bothered to rebrand it with the Predacons Rising sub-line and make an entirely new box design.

How do we know it's not just the name of this set? "Beast Hunters" is already the subtitle of the "Transformers: Prime" label, so that would make "Predacons Rising" be a subtitle of a subtitle. "Yo dawg" Subtitleception, in a sense.

Sabrblade wrote:

RAcast wrote:

Mindmaster wrote:

STINGRAY749 wrote:Also that "Predacons Rising" subtitle has me hoping that a deluxe jet vehicon will be coming.

How? It's just a DVD.

Because it's not just a DVD. It's a rebranding. If it were "just a DVD," they wouldn't have bothered to rebrand it with the Predacons Rising sub-line and make an entirely new box design.

How do we know it's not just the name of this set? "Beast Hunters" is already the subtitle of the "Transformers: Prime" label, so that would make "Predacons Rising" be a subtitle of a subtitle. "Yo dawg" Subtitleception, in a sense.

Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen became Hunt for the Decpeticons and Reveal the Shield lines. They were sublines of Rotf after the Rotf line ended and there was space to fill before the next big thing.

^ There's precedent for "subtitleception," as you call it.

Right now, they've got time to fill before the TF4 line kicks up, and they don't want their only line to be Generations.

RAcast wrote:Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen became Hunt for the Decpeticons and Reveal the Shield lines. They were sublines of Rotf after the Rotf line ended and there was space to fill before the next big thing.

^ There's precedent for "subtitleception," as you call it.

No no no no no. That is a completely different scenario to this.

"Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen" was the name of one line, whose subline imprint was "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen N.E.S.T. Global Alliance".

What you call "Hunt for the Decepticons" was a completely different toyline just called "Transformers", whose subline imprint was "Transformers Reveal the Shield". Its relationship to the ROTF toyline was like how Beast Machines was to Beast Wars and how Energon was to Armada. It was a separate sequel toyline.

Transformers: Prime has thus far had three toylines that have all been subline imprints in and of themselves due to there never having been any toyline just called "Transformers: Prime". The first was "Transformers: Prime First Edition", the second was "Transformers: Prime Robots in Disguise", and the third is "Transformers: Prime Beast Hunters". Though, if any of these has to be singled out as the sole subline imprint (with the other two just being the "regular" lines), it'd be "Transformers: Prime Beast Hunters", what with it coming out near the end of the series and being the biggest change in the line overall.

So, this "Predacons Rising" sub-subtitle would be the equivalent of an Armada toy being labeled "Transformers: Armada The Unicron Battles Predacons Rising", an Energon toy labeled "Transformers: Energon The Powerlinx Battles Predacons Rising", a Cybertron toy labeled "Transformers: Cybertron Primus Unleashed Predacons Rising", and so on and so forth. Thus, there's gotta be something more to this "Predacons Rising" name than just a sub-subtitle, unless Hasbro really does want to get ridiculous with their toyline names.

Sabrblade wrote:Thus, there's gotta be something more to this "Predacons Rising" name than just a sub-subtitle, unless Hasbro really does want to get ridiculous with their toyline names.

What if it's just the name of the gift set?

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Thus, there's gotta be something more to this "Predacons Rising" name than just a sub-subtitle, unless Hasbro really does want to get ridiculous with their toyline names.

What if it's just the name of the gift set?

That's what I proposed from the get go.

Sabrblade wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Thus, there's gotta be something more to this "Predacons Rising" name than just a sub-subtitle, unless Hasbro really does want to get ridiculous with their toyline names.

What if it's just the name of the gift set?

That's what I proposed from the get go.

Looking back, I don't see the "Prime" title anywhere on the packaging, the line proper seems to be just "Transformers". Isn't there anything coming with the title "Beast Hunters: Predacons Unleashed"?

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Thus, there's gotta be something more to this "Predacons Rising" name than just a sub-subtitle, unless Hasbro really does want to get ridiculous with their toyline names.

What if it's just the name of the gift set?

That's what I proposed from the get go.

Looking back, I don't see the "Prime" title anywhere on the packaging, the line proper seems to be just "Transformers". Isn't there anything coming with the title "Beast Hunters: Predacons Unleashed"?

Not "Unleashed" (how does that keep getting around?).

There's a TV movie coming with that name as the story title, like how any episode has its own name.

Sabrblade wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Thus, there's gotta be something more to this "Predacons Rising" name than just a sub-subtitle, unless Hasbro really does want to get ridiculous with their toyline names.

What if it's just the name of the gift set?

That's what I proposed from the get go.

Looking back, I don't see the "Prime" title anywhere on the packaging, the line proper seems to be just "Transformers". Isn't there anything coming with the title "Beast Hunters: Predacons Unleashed"?

Not "Unleashed" (how does that keep getting around?).

There's a TV movie coming with that name as the story title, like how any episode has its own name.

Predacons Unleashed Rising, sorry

You think the gift set refers to that TV Movie? Since it seems the next line will simply be "Transformers" (yet again...) that seems possible.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Thus, there's gotta be something more to this "Predacons Rising" name than just a sub-subtitle, unless Hasbro really does want to get ridiculous with their toyline names.

What if it's just the name of the gift set?

That's what I proposed from the get go.

Looking back, I don't see the "Prime" title anywhere on the packaging, the line proper seems to be just "Transformers". Isn't there anything coming with the title "Beast Hunters: Predacons Unleashed"?

Not "Unleashed" (how does that keep getting around?).

There's a TV movie coming with that name as the story title, like how any episode has its own name.

Predacons Unleashed Rising, sorry

You think the gift set refers to that TV Movie? Since it seems the next line will simply be "Transformers" (yet again...) that seems possible.

They might do what 343 Industries did with the short series "Halo: Forward Unto Dawn": have a full, approximately 90 minute movie, then chop it up into several episodes. But in this case, it's combining two or three episodes into a movie, most likely either the first few of Beast Hunters or later episodes where other Predacons join the ranks.

Just my two cents.

Mindmaster wrote:They might do what 343 Industries did with the short series "Halo: Forward Unto Dawn": have a full, approximately 90 minute movie, then chop it up into several episodes. But in this case, it's combining two or three episodes into a movie, most likely either the first few of Beast Hunters or later episodes where other Predacons join the ranks.

Just my two cents.

But "Predacons Rising" was revealed to be a TV movie serving as the series finale for the show, finishing it off for good after episode 65 (the 13th episode of season 3).

Sabrblade wrote:

Mindmaster wrote:They might do what 343 Industries did with the short series "Halo: Forward Unto Dawn": have a full, approximately 90 minute movie, then chop it up into several episodes. But in this case, it's combining two or three episodes into a movie, most likely either the first few of Beast Hunters or later episodes where other Predacons join the ranks.

Just my two cents.

But "Predacons Rising" was revealed to be a TV movie serving as the series finale for the show, finishing it off for good after episode 65 (the 13th episode of season 3).

...Nevermind...

Dangit, I planned to wait for this set just to make sure I don't once again wind up with only 3/5th's of a combiner or something, but I don't like that transparent plastic at all.

GuyIncognito wrote:So you DON'T understand inflation. How much was a Deluxe in 1984? About $10? $10 in 1984 dollars is equivalent to $22 today.

Even if you pay the highest price for a Deluxe today - $16.99 at TRU - that's equivalent to $7.50 in 1984 dollars.

Transformers today are smaller, more complex with more engineering and more moving parts, AND THEY COST LESS.

So you're saying the dollar today is worth approximately HALF of the dollar from 1984? And if that's true, what's going on with the average household income? Huh, I'm seeing your point. It looks like the median in 84 was around $20,000, and now it's $46,000. So, what you're saying is that $17 for a deluxe is a BARGAIN? I guess I clearly don't understand inflation. I take "inflation" as a constant thing that occurs over many years; not as a variable that cuts the value of money in HALF in less than 30 years. That kind of dollar value drop is hardly something I'd consider "inflation"... seems like there should be a more dramatic terminology for that. But what do I know? Very little, apparently. Thanks for the explanation, dude!

Still, here are some things for YOU to consider: how much do most action figures cost today? $17-20? Hardly. Why did Target, Wal-Mart, and TRU lower the TF price from $16-7 to $13? And does the average parent consider $20 to be a bargain (as compared to 1984 dollars)?

Your explanation is a paper explanation - it sounds fantastic on paper! No doubt. But in reality, there ARE other factors than pure economics. Market prices. That's my focus. You can value your TF collection at $1 billion, and you can set the auction price at $1 billion, but... IF IT DOES NOT SELL AT $1 BILLION, THEN IT IS NOT WORTH $1 BILLION.

TF's are worth what people are willing to pay. Clearly, even $16 is not the right price point. And is it a coincidence that Hasbro is making so many Commander and Legion class toys?

Why is it paper theories with most of you guys? None of you are really factoring the average consumer: the parent. I just don't see parents buying expensive TF's. PERIOD. Unless the movie just came out, of course.

And my bigger complaint is NOT that the prices have increased (that's a natural economic phenomenon; do don't label me an uneducated idiot who can't even spell "inflation") - my bigger issue is how Hasbro can JUMP THE PRICE SO HIGH IN SO SHORT A TIME! The price didn't go up a dollar every year or two... it jumped to almost DOUBLE in just one year! INFLATION DOES NOT JUMP THAT MUCH IN ONE YEAR. I get that Hasbro was charging too little in the past and should have raised prices... but given their trouble making TF's popular WITHOUT A MOVIE, I'd say that raising prices on an ailing brand is NOT the way to sell more product. MARKET PRICES, NOT INFLATION-ADJUSTED-AND-THIS-IS-WHAT-I-DESERVE-TO-BE-PAID prices!

Dude, why not raise the prices gradually, reduce the TF sizes gradually... ease the transition? Or is it that Hasbro had a dramatic change in leadership, and some execs just dropped the hammer to "save the company" type of thing?

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:And I see we've been using an incorrect but related Economic term: devaluation of money. The point still stands however.

Thank you. Devaluation makes more sense to me than "inflation".

GuyIncognito wrote:According to http://pleasesavemerobots.blogspot.com/ ... pse.html...

in 1985 Optimus Prime retailed for $19.88: $43.35 in 2013 dollars,
Thrust retailed for $12.88, $28.08 in today's dollars,
Smokescreen was $9.88, which is $21.54 in 2013 dollars.

Conclusion: after adjusting for inflaction (because you ABSOLUTELY MUST adjust for inflation when comparing prices from different time periods), you can see that Transformers are SIGNIFICANTLY CHEAPER now than they were in 1984-85.

The absolute cost in dollars may have gone up, but our income levels have gone up EVEN MORE, so the real cost is down. In 1984, the median household income in the U.S. was about $20,000 and today it's about $50,000.

Another way to think about it: in 1984, someone making the median income could buy 2000 Smokescreens with what they make in a year. In 2013, someone making the median income could buy 3,333 Smokescreens (at $15 each). TF cost has increased, but income has increased even more, making the real cost lower.

Thank you for the nice comparisons (I actually looked up the Median incomes on my own, just a second ago). Economics is a pain... especially when the focus seems to be on the redistribution of wealth, which is counter-intuitive to the free-market idea that seems to be a big part of economics. Like I said before, it seems to me that regardless of absolute values, the product is only worth something when money exchanges hands.

If the TF's do not sell well at $17 (and you can make a strong argument that they don't), then they are hardly worth $17. Understand what I'm saying?

Look at it this way: if TF's are really CHEAPER than 1984 (as you say, with excellent examples), then why don't they sell BETTER than 1984? Certainly, basic economics dictate that a lower price (especially one that is lower than actual value of the product) increases sales... when there is demand. But if there's little demand for TF's? At what price is a TF figure a bargain? $17? $22 (1984 prices)?

Your comparison shows Optimus was sold as $44 in 1984, right? Well, maybe in 1984 you COULD sell an Optimus for that much (in fact, I'm sure some stores sold them for even more). But today? Does Optimus sell well at $44+?

I'm just trying to answer the question of why the TF brand isn't doing as well as it was in the past. Is it due to lowered popularity among kids? Maybe, like with the comic industry decline, the kids are more interested in video games and electronics? And if so, can Hasbro really justify adjusted prices on these toys?

Thirteen dollars for a Deluxe? What Wal*Mart have you been shipping at? My local centers want about sixteen a pop.

Sabrblade wrote:

Mindmaster wrote:They might do what 343 Industries did with the short series "Halo: Forward Unto Dawn": have a full, approximately 90 minute movie, then chop it up into several episodes. But in this case, it's combining two or three episodes into a movie, most likely either the first few of Beast Hunters or later episodes where other Predacons join the ranks.

Just my two cents.

But "Predacons Rising" was revealed to be a TV movie serving as the series finale for the show, finishing it off for good after episode 65 (the 13th episode of season 3).

So there's a movie planned at the series conclusion? For some reason, I thought Predacons Rising was supposed to be the movie that transitioned us into the Beast Hunters series... Adding movies to end TV series... is that a normal thing? I wonder if they'll market it as a movie and show it in full, or just split it apart and call it a mini-series conclusion...

Metrosuplex wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Mindmaster wrote:They might do what 343 Industries did with the short series "Halo: Forward Unto Dawn": have a full, approximately 90 minute movie, then chop it up into several episodes. But in this case, it's combining two or three episodes into a movie, most likely either the first few of Beast Hunters or later episodes where other Predacons join the ranks.

Just my two cents.

But "Predacons Rising" was revealed to be a TV movie serving as the series finale for the show, finishing it off for good after episode 65 (the 13th episode of season 3).

So there's a movie planned at the series conclusion? For some reason, I thought Predacons Rising was supposed to be the movie that transitioned us into the Beast Hunters series... Adding movies to end TV series... is that a normal thing? I wonder if they'll market it as a movie and show it in full, or just split it apart and call it a mini-series conclusion...

Well, the press release for the movie called it an "epilogue", so take that what you will.

As for an example of a movie finishing off a series, "Firefly" did that with its "Serenity" film.

Sabrblade wrote:As for an example of a movie finishing off a series, "Firefly" did that with its "Serenity" film.

That was a good movie to. A great way to end a fantastic series. Hopefully we get the same results with Prime.

(Not saying that Prime is fantastic or anything.....but you get the idea)

Mindmaster wrote:Thirteen dollars for a Deluxe? What Wal*Mart have you been shipping at? My local centers want about sixteen a pop.

Haha! You know, it's very hit or miss with Wal-Mart's (and a lot of stores). I'm in IL, so.... ? If it makes you feel better, the Wal-Mart's here are ransacked and horribly stocked, typically. Although, since the price drop to $13, I've seen some better stocking (ironically). But since Target is closer (and a nicer store, in the Chicago-land area), I prefer to just buy my TF's there.

Sabrblade wrote:Well, the press release for the movie called it an "epilogue", so take that what you will.

As for an example of a movie finishing off a series, "Firefly" did that with its "Serenity" film.

I LOOOOOOOATHE Firefly. I'm sure that statement will make a bunch of you like me even more, huh? But hear me out: Joss Whedon is a plagiarist! Firefly would be a fantastic show if he wasn't borrowing so liberally from anime, and giving no credit. I think my anger came about when I saw him literally steal a scene. He didn't borrow elements, or use an anime as "inspiration"... he literally stole a scene, cinematic shot and all. The scene is the one of the girl being awoken in a suit case - it's DIRECTLY FROM "OUTLAW STAR". And I love Outlaw Star - one of the best sci-fi's out there. It's infuriating that he'd steal from a show that few of you know about, and then take credit for the "masterpiece" that is Firefly.

There's more plagiarism than that, but the only other one that I'm keenly aware of (given my small sci-fi knowledge base here) is the Firefly ship design itself - it's a cross between the ship in Outlaw Star and the ship in Cowboy Bebop. SERIOUSLY. It is. And why would that be, exactly? Outlaw Star and Cowboy Bebop were two Adult Swim shows played on Cartoon Network just before Firefly debuted - so you can imagine a douche literally flipping through TV channels and copying ideas he saw on TV... LITERALLY. It's... shameful.

Firefly = shameless plagiarism, and no one cares because "everything is really copying everything else before it and nothing is really original, blah, blah, blah." I'd kick Whedon in the ballz, if I got a chance to meet him.

(Whedon himself has admitted to stealing ideas, though not outright plagiarism itself - apparently, when a thief steals something, he can call it "borrowing" or "liberating" or any other flowery term to disguise the actual crime and be Robin Hood).