The Energon Pub

5150 Cruiser wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:It's compounded with the other point you made that ultimately, Hasbro approves these characters and how they are portrayed. They made the call to put the Twins in the film, but they aren't willing to deal with the consequences.

Agreed. Ultimately hasbro made the decision to put the twins in the movie, there for they should have carried them all the way. But to be fair, (and i think you can agree to this), i doubt they anticipated the portrayal that critics and some fans saw them. They saw them like we did. Im-mature teenage robots. Nothing else, nothing more. If they knew the **** storm it they were going to bring, wether or not they agreed with it or not, i'm sure they would have changed them around a bit. But again, because some feel the need to be overly politicaly correct, we have characters that had great personalities ditched without an explanation.

Indeed, but to stay on this topic and swing back on the main thread topic it's hard to say Bay isn't trolling with the Wreckers. The double standard among the PC crowd and Hollywood is rather jarring, that one *supposedly racist portrayal is ok while another is not. I'd love to see the critical and fan reaction if a **gay transformer showed up.

*Of course the people who complain about the Wreckers, if any due to said double standard, are just as bad as those who complained about the Twins.

**I haven't been keeping up on Transformers past Beast Machines, so I don't know if that hurdle was jumped yet.

Edit - Some education on double-standards. Scroll down to "Non-Gender Related/Other," or just read the whole thing (it's mostly about sexism though): http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... eStandards

Double Edit - Yes I'm completely aware I'm guilty of many of these on the Seibertron forums.

Capt.Failure wrote:Considering the characters of the Twins (immature kids fighting in a war) I would have loved to see them show up having learned a thing or two. Hell, they could have taken lessons from Ironhide and become major bad***es, and avenging his death at Sentinel's hands could have worked toward further character development.

Seriously, I'd love to see that idea brought out in DOTM. Thing is, there's no guarantee things will go that way. I speculated a hundred and one things to happen in ROTF that never happened in the actual film, so even if the twins were retained in DOTM, they might just be sidelined like Jolt was in ROTF.

BTW, I'm curious about just who designs the movieverse TF's. As far as I know, Micheal Bay and Dreamworks are supposed to be in charge of picking the alt mode for the TF's as well as the designs of the bot modes. Hasbro designers then work out a transformation from bot to alt.

Or is there more collaboration between Bay and Hasbro than that?

SKYWARPED_128 wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:Considering the characters of the Twins (immature kids fighting in a war) I would have loved to see them show up having learned a thing or two. Hell, they could have taken lessons from Ironhide and become major bad***es, and avenging his death at Sentinel's hands could have worked toward further character development.

Seriously, I'd love to see that idea brought out in DOTM. Thing is, there's no guarantee things will go that way. I speculated a hundred and one things to happen in ROTF that never happened in the actual film, so even if the twins were retained in DOTM, they might just be sidelined like Jolt was in ROTF.

BTW, I'm curious about just who designs the movieverse TF's. As far as I know, Micheal Bay and Dreamworks are supposed to be in charge of picking the alt mode for the TF's as well as the designs of the bot modes. Hasbro designers then work out a transformation from bot to alt.

Or is there more collaboration between Bay and Hasbro than that?

I get the feeling the character design chain goes as follows:

1. Hasbro chooses characters

2. Hasbro shows Bay

3. Bay talks to writers

4. Writers write script

5. Hasbro designs characters

6. Bay shoots film

7. Voice actors perform their scenes

8. Effects guys dub and insert characters

9. Movie gets edited and released.

Ultimately Hasbro does have the most say since it's their characters. Bay as the director is just the messanger, since it's Hasbro who benefits the most from this films in toy sales and royalties. The only thing we could associate with characters that's on Bay's head is letting voice actors chose how to act the characters (he loves improv) and even then Hasbro has say on certian characters like Optimus, Megatron, and others with iconic voices. The Twin's ghetto punk speak, for example, was a total improv job on the part of the voice actors. But Hasbro designed the character's looks relative to the alt modes at the end of the day.

What does this mean?

If the Twins "looked" like stereotypes, blame Hasbro.

If they sounded like it, blame Tom Kenny and Reno Wilson. The latter found the accusations of his character being a racist portrayal offensive and ironic, considering Reno Wilson is African American.

robofreak wrote:I have removed the posts that were signs of trouble happening.

If any more potential flame bait happens in this thread, warnings will be issued. Is that clear?

well i must admit i dont know what flame baiting is, so if it was included in my post, then it was purely innocent, and i apologise to the mods for wasting their time having to delete my posts

Capt.Failure wrote:

5150 Cruiser wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:It's compounded with the other point you made that ultimately, Hasbro approves these characters and how they are portrayed. They made the call to put the Twins in the film, but they aren't willing to deal with the consequences.

Agreed. Ultimately hasbro made the decision to put the twins in the movie, there for they should have carried them all the way. But to be fair, (and i think you can agree to this), i doubt they anticipated the portrayal that critics and some fans saw them. They saw them like we did. Im-mature teenage robots. Nothing else, nothing more. If they knew the **** storm it they were going to bring, wether or not they agreed with it or not, i'm sure they would have changed them around a bit. But again, because some feel the need to be overly politicaly correct, we have characters that had great personalities ditched without an explanation.

Indeed, but to stay on this topic and swing back on the main thread topic it's hard to say Bay isn't trolling with the Wreckers. The double standard among the PC crowd and Hollywood is rather jarring, that one *supposedly racist portrayal is ok while another is not. I'd love to see the critical and fan reaction if a **gay transformer showed up.

*Of course the people who complain about the Wreckers, if any due to said double standard, are just as bad as those who complained about the Twins.

**I haven't been keeping up on Transformers past Beast Machines, so I don't know if that hurdle was jumped yet.

Edit - Some education on double-standards. Scroll down to "Non-Gender Related/Other," or just read the whole thing (it's mostly about sexism though): http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... eStandards

Double Edit - Yes I'm completely aware I'm guilty of many of these on the Seibertron forums.

so essentially there is no argument to be made

if you criticise twins - you are overly PC (what is the opposite of that, wilfully ignorant)

if you dont criticise redneck wreckers (if they are) - you are a hypocrit0

If you do criticise wreckers - you are overly PC

So its a sort of a loop. in your mind.

As for the rest of your post, some of us have already criticised the movie for its attitude towards homosexuality, so if it was more blatently offensive then im sure us overly pc lot would voice our distaste for it.

Capt.Failure wrote:

shamone wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:This is technically me reposting something I posted at the start of this thread, but I believe it bears repeating. If the Wreckers turn out to be a pair of rednecks, which when you get right down to it are racist portrayals of white people, then Bay's officially won the "Troll of the Millenium" award.

And I'll be smiling the whole time. Gotta love it when someone points out a double standard.

or it will suggest that bay is incapable of making a movie without characters which are narrow stereotypes instead of fully 3 dimensional characters

You do know that Bay is the director, not the writer of the screenplay or script, right? Basic knowledge of how to make a film would help your point of view.

i am more than aware bay is the director not script writer, which is why i said he made, not wrote the movies

now my points are

1. Bay has not displayed a directorial style where character development and insight are key, either in the first two transformers movies or the remainder of his ouevre. Therefore im making the logical jump that he wont be too concerned with character growth or levels in DOTM. He does pick the scripts he directs, therefore if he wanted to work on a character piece he could find one, its not his style, some directors are just not talented in that manner.

2. A director has more to do than, point the camera, shout action and cut. They translate the dead words on the page and bring them to life on the screen. So a director can get a performance from an actor that may not be on the page, they arent just blank read throughs we see on film (even in bay movies). Therefore when a director is directing, he is directing performances, collaborating with his actors to understand the role. The tired cliche of the actor asking what is my motivation is not directed to the scriptwriter (they are rarely on set) but to the director, who interprets the words on the page.

I have more than a basic knowledge of how movie making works, three years communications studies would be the reason why.

shamone wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:

5150 Cruiser wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:It's compounded with the other point you made that ultimately, Hasbro approves these characters and how they are portrayed. They made the call to put the Twins in the film, but they aren't willing to deal with the consequences.

Agreed. Ultimately hasbro made the decision to put the twins in the movie, there for they should have carried them all the way. But to be fair, (and i think you can agree to this), i doubt they anticipated the portrayal that critics and some fans saw them. They saw them like we did. Im-mature teenage robots. Nothing else, nothing more. If they knew the **** storm it they were going to bring, wether or not they agreed with it or not, i'm sure they would have changed them around a bit. But again, because some feel the need to be overly politicaly correct, we have characters that had great personalities ditched without an explanation.

Indeed, but to stay on this topic and swing back on the main thread topic it's hard to say Bay isn't trolling with the Wreckers. The double standard among the PC crowd and Hollywood is rather jarring, that one *supposedly racist portrayal is ok while another is not. I'd love to see the critical and fan reaction if a **gay transformer showed up.

*Of course the people who complain about the Wreckers, if any due to said double standard, are just as bad as those who complained about the Twins.

**I haven't been keeping up on Transformers past Beast Machines, so I don't know if that hurdle was jumped yet.

Edit - Some education on double-standards. Scroll down to "Non-Gender Related/Other," or just read the whole thing (it's mostly about sexism though): http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... eStandards

Double Edit - Yes I'm completely aware I'm guilty of many of these on the Seibertron forums.

so essentially there is no argument to be made

if you criticise twins - you are overly PC (what is the opposite of that, wilfully ignorant)

if you dont criticise redneck wreckers (if they are) - you are a hypocrit0

If you do criticise wreckers - you are overly PC

So its a sort of a loop. in your mind.

As for the rest of your post, some of us have already criticised the movie for its attitude towards homosexuality, so if it was more blatently offensive then im sure us overly pc lot would voice our distaste for it.

Not in my mind, but in fact. It is an endless loop and a pointless one, same as the percieved *"homophobia" you mention. If there was some active conspiracy within the production to slander blacks, homosexuals, and apparently Jews (to which I'm also less than convinced) then there would be a problem. But there isn't, and it's all boiled down to lots of wasted energy between the two of us (and many others) argueing on the topic.

shamone wrote:1. Bay has not displayed a directorial style where character development and insight are key, either in the first two transformers movies or the remainder of his ouevre. Therefore im making the logical jump that he wont be too concerned with character growth or levels in DOTM. He does pick the scripts he directs, therefore if he wanted to work on a character piece he could find one, its not his style, some directors are just not talented in that manner.

2. A director has more to do than, point the camera, shout action and cut. They translate the dead words on the page and bring them to life on the screen. So a director can get a performance from an actor that may not be on the page, they arent just blank read throughs we see on film (even in bay movies). Therefore when a director is directing, he is directing performances, collaborating with his actors to understand the role. The tired cliche of the actor asking what is my motivation is not directed to the scriptwriter (they are rarely on set) but to the director, who interprets the words on the page.

1. I would never disagree that Bay's style is about action over characterization. That's why in my opinion he's perfectly suited for the Transformers films and also why he gets such hate from the critical establishment due to their misguided belief that they define "art" with their opinions.

2. Indeed this is true, but at the same time Bay has his hands tied in several regards. For one these aren't his characters were the Transformers are concerned, they belong to Hasbro. Second, as I've said before, he gives alot of the actors the chance improv their performances. Skids and Mudflap's attitudes and voices came from said improve jobs, and while Bay had to approve said voice acting on one level, the final word was again with Hasbro. In a production like this you need to take into account that extra layer.

*The line "Go whine to your boyfriend." directed at Leo is by the Twins is hardly homophobic, more a throwaway line anyone with common sense would just ignore, gay or straight. If you want homophobia go look up such names as Ruben Diaz, Rick Santorum, Byran Fischer or the recent rantings of so called comedian Tracy Morgan. To say what I want to say as politely as possible: You are not an expert on the topic, stop pretending to be.

Capt.Failure wrote:

shamone wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:

5150 Cruiser wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:It's compounded with the other point you made that ultimately, Hasbro approves these characters and how they are portrayed. They made the call to put the Twins in the film, but they aren't willing to deal with the consequences.

Agreed. Ultimately hasbro made the decision to put the twins in the movie, there for they should have carried them all the way. But to be fair, (and i think you can agree to this), i doubt they anticipated the portrayal that critics and some fans saw them. They saw them like we did. Im-mature teenage robots. Nothing else, nothing more. If they knew the **** storm it they were going to bring, wether or not they agreed with it or not, i'm sure they would have changed them around a bit. But again, because some feel the need to be overly politicaly correct, we have characters that had great personalities ditched without an explanation.

Indeed, but to stay on this topic and swing back on the main thread topic it's hard to say Bay isn't trolling with the Wreckers. The double standard among the PC crowd and Hollywood is rather jarring, that one *supposedly racist portrayal is ok while another is not. I'd love to see the critical and fan reaction if a **gay transformer showed up.

*Of course the people who complain about the Wreckers, if any due to said double standard, are just as bad as those who complained about the Twins.

**I haven't been keeping up on Transformers past Beast Machines, so I don't know if that hurdle was jumped yet.

Edit - Some education on double-standards. Scroll down to "Non-Gender Related/Other," or just read the whole thing (it's mostly about sexism though): http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... eStandards

Double Edit - Yes I'm completely aware I'm guilty of many of these on the Seibertron forums.

so essentially there is no argument to be made

if you criticise twins - you are overly PC (what is the opposite of that, wilfully ignorant)

if you dont criticise redneck wreckers (if they are) - you are a hypocrit0

If you do criticise wreckers - you are overly PC

So its a sort of a loop. in your mind.

As for the rest of your post, some of us have already criticised the movie for its attitude towards homosexuality, so if it was more blatently offensive then im sure us overly pc lot would voice our distaste for it.

Not in my mind, but in fact. It is an endless loop and a pointless one, same as the percieved *"homophobia" you mention. If there was some active conspiracy within the production to slander blacks, homosexuals, and apparently Jews (to which I'm also less than convinced) then there would be a problem. But there isn't, and it's all boiled down to lots of wasted energy between the two of us (and many others) argueing on the topic.

shamone wrote:1. Bay has not displayed a directorial style where character development and insight are key, either in the first two transformers movies or the remainder of his ouevre. Therefore im making the logical jump that he wont be too concerned with character growth or levels in DOTM. He does pick the scripts he directs, therefore if he wanted to work on a character piece he could find one, its not his style, some directors are just not talented in that manner.

2. A director has more to do than, point the camera, shout action and cut. They translate the dead words on the page and bring them to life on the screen. So a director can get a performance from an actor that may not be on the page, they arent just blank read throughs we see on film (even in bay movies). Therefore when a director is directing, he is directing performances, collaborating with his actors to understand the role. The tired cliche of the actor asking what is my motivation is not directed to the scriptwriter (they are rarely on set) but to the director, who interprets the words on the page.

1. I would never disagree that Bay's style is about action over characterization. That's why in my opinion he's perfectly suited for the Transformers films and also why he gets such hate from the critical establishment due to their misguided belief that they define "art" with their opinions.

2. Indeed this is true, but at the same time Bay has his hands tied in several regards. For one these aren't his characters were the Transformers are concerned, they belong to Hasbro. Second, as I've said before, he gives alot of the actors the chance improv their performances. Skids and Mudflap's attitudes and voices came from said improve jobs, and while Bay had to approve said voice acting on one level, the final word was again with Hasbro. In a production like this you need to take into account that extra layer.

*The line "Go whine to your boyfriend." directed at Leo is by the Twins is hardly homophobic, more a throwaway line anyone with common sense would just ignore, gay or straight. If you want homophobia go look up such names as Ruben Diaz, Rick Santorum, Byran Fischer or the recent rantings of so called comedian Tracy Morgan. To say what I want to say as politely as possible: You are not an expert on the topic, stop pretending to be.

Whether there is a conspiracy there or not is down to personal opinion. As is the issue regarding peoples views of racism and homphobia, etc etc. So its not a loop, only in your mind and people who share your opinion. Some of us dont see it as being overly PC, so it is not a FACT, its your opinion.

If you could point out where i declared pr expertise over minority issues in movies i would love to know. Im pointing out how i felt and how others felt about it.

If you didnt feel the same, so be it, dont dismiss others for taking things differently than you.


So you can see there was some truth in my statement that character development was unlikely in bays movies. the snide comment wasnt neccessary was it, it was just being adversarial

shamone wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:

shamone wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:

5150 Cruiser wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:It's compounded with the other point you made that ultimately, Hasbro approves these characters and how they are portrayed. They made the call to put the Twins in the film, but they aren't willing to deal with the consequences.

Agreed. Ultimately hasbro made the decision to put the twins in the movie, there for they should have carried them all the way. But to be fair, (and i think you can agree to this), i doubt they anticipated the portrayal that critics and some fans saw them. They saw them like we did. Im-mature teenage robots. Nothing else, nothing more. If they knew the **** storm it they were going to bring, wether or not they agreed with it or not, i'm sure they would have changed them around a bit. But again, because some feel the need to be overly politicaly correct, we have characters that had great personalities ditched without an explanation.

Indeed, but to stay on this topic and swing back on the main thread topic it's hard to say Bay isn't trolling with the Wreckers. The double standard among the PC crowd and Hollywood is rather jarring, that one *supposedly racist portrayal is ok while another is not. I'd love to see the critical and fan reaction if a **gay transformer showed up.

*Of course the people who complain about the Wreckers, if any due to said double standard, are just as bad as those who complained about the Twins.

**I haven't been keeping up on Transformers past Beast Machines, so I don't know if that hurdle was jumped yet.

Edit - Some education on double-standards. Scroll down to "Non-Gender Related/Other," or just read the whole thing (it's mostly about sexism though): http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... eStandards

Double Edit - Yes I'm completely aware I'm guilty of many of these on the Seibertron forums.

so essentially there is no argument to be made

if you criticise twins - you are overly PC (what is the opposite of that, wilfully ignorant)

if you dont criticise redneck wreckers (if they are) - you are a hypocrit0

If you do criticise wreckers - you are overly PC

So its a sort of a loop. in your mind.

As for the rest of your post, some of us have already criticised the movie for its attitude towards homosexuality, so if it was more blatently offensive then im sure us overly pc lot would voice our distaste for it.

Not in my mind, but in fact. It is an endless loop and a pointless one, same as the percieved *"homophobia" you mention. If there was some active conspiracy within the production to slander blacks, homosexuals, and apparently Jews (to which I'm also less than convinced) then there would be a problem. But there isn't, and it's all boiled down to lots of wasted energy between the two of us (and many others) argueing on the topic.

shamone wrote:1. Bay has not displayed a directorial style where character development and insight are key, either in the first two transformers movies or the remainder of his ouevre. Therefore im making the logical jump that he wont be too concerned with character growth or levels in DOTM. He does pick the scripts he directs, therefore if he wanted to work on a character piece he could find one, its not his style, some directors are just not talented in that manner.

2. A director has more to do than, point the camera, shout action and cut. They translate the dead words on the page and bring them to life on the screen. So a director can get a performance from an actor that may not be on the page, they arent just blank read throughs we see on film (even in bay movies). Therefore when a director is directing, he is directing performances, collaborating with his actors to understand the role. The tired cliche of the actor asking what is my motivation is not directed to the scriptwriter (they are rarely on set) but to the director, who interprets the words on the page.

1. I would never disagree that Bay's style is about action over characterization. That's why in my opinion he's perfectly suited for the Transformers films and also why he gets such hate from the critical establishment due to their misguided belief that they define "art" with their opinions.

2. Indeed this is true, but at the same time Bay has his hands tied in several regards. For one these aren't his characters were the Transformers are concerned, they belong to Hasbro. Second, as I've said before, he gives alot of the actors the chance improv their performances. Skids and Mudflap's attitudes and voices came from said improve jobs, and while Bay had to approve said voice acting on one level, the final word was again with Hasbro. In a production like this you need to take into account that extra layer.

*The line "Go whine to your boyfriend." directed at Leo is by the Twins is hardly homophobic, more a throwaway line anyone with common sense would just ignore, gay or straight. If you want homophobia go look up such names as Ruben Diaz, Rick Santorum, Byran Fischer or the recent rantings of so called comedian Tracy Morgan. To say what I want to say as politely as possible: You are not an expert on the topic, stop pretending to be.

Whether there is a conspiracy there or not is down to personal opinion. As is the issue regarding peoples views of racism and homphobia, etc etc. So its not a loop, only in your mind and people who share your opinion. Some of us dont see it as being overly PC, so it is not a FACT, its your opinion.

If you could point out where i declared pr expertise over minority issues in movies i would love to know. Im pointing out how i felt and how others felt about it.

If you didnt feel the same, so be it, dont dismiss others for taking things differently than you.


So you can see there was some truth in my statement that character development was unlikely in bays movies. the snide comment wasnt neccessary was it, it was just being adversarial

I'm sorry, but there is no conspiracy in these films directed at minorities. While you can interpret plot elements, character designs and throwaway lines until you're blue in the face (and I can't stop you) to say that there was a concious effort to spread hate in Revenge of the Fallen is outright absurd. You can have your opinion, but now you're at the point where I gotta draw the line in the sand and say "no." There was no conspiracy of any kind on the topic in this film. Period.

And I know this second paragraph will be lost in your reaction to the first, but it was no snide remark. Often critics do believe they have final say in what is art. Just look at Roger Ebert's rants toward gamers, which rank up there as some of his most misguided and uneducated rantings to date.

Capt.Failure wrote:
I'm sorry, but there is no conspiracy in these films directed at minorities. While you can interpret plot elements, character designs and throwaway lines until you're blue in the face (and I can't stop you) to say that there was a concious effort to spread hate in Revenge of the Fallen is outright absurd. You can have your opinion, but now you're at the point where I gotta draw the line in the sand and say "no." There was no conspiracy of any kind on the topic in this film. Period.

And I know this second paragraph will be lost in your reaction to the first, but it was no snide remark. Often critics do believe they have final say in what is art. Just look at Roger Ebert's rants toward gamers, which rank up there as some of his most misguided and uneducated rantings to date.

im not saying there is a conspiracy. But there is material there that may offend some people. thats what im saying.

Im currently arguing that the death of darwin in xmen is not a conspiracy on an other forum !!!

It wont be lost. you said i had no knowledge on how movies were made. I made it evidently clear that i do. It was snide to be fair.

And ebert has lost what ever he had, many years ago.

shamone wrote:Im currently arguing that the death of darwin in xmen is not a conspiracy on an other forum !!!

I have not seen that film yet. Elaborate.

shamone wrote:And ebert has lost what ever he had, many years ago.

I'm glad we agree on somethining.

Also apologies if I misinerpreted what you said, it just seemed like you meant that.

Capt.Failure wrote:

shamone wrote:Im currently arguing that the death of darwin in xmen is not a conspiracy on an other forum !!!

I have not seen that film yet. Elaborate.

shamone wrote:And ebert has lost what ever he had, many years ago.

I'm glad we agree on somethining.

Also apologies if I misinerpreted what you said, it just seemed like you meant that.

the rcycling of a trope, or is it. to say more would spoiler. but some believe its a racial conspiracy and xmen is atlas shrugged for the y generation !!!!!!!!!!!

shamone wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:

shamone wrote:Im currently arguing that the death of darwin in xmen is not a conspiracy on an other forum !!!

I have not seen that film yet. Elaborate.

shamone wrote:And ebert has lost what ever he had, many years ago.

I'm glad we agree on somethining.

Also apologies if I misinerpreted what you said, it just seemed like you meant that.

the rcycling of a trope, or is it. to say more would spoiler. but some believe its a racial conspiracy and xmen is atlas shrugged for the y generation !!!!!!!!!!!

I would give the writers of Xmen more credit than to ripoff a no talent hack like Ayn Rand. And anyone who would interpret Xmen as racist is missing the point of the whole damn series. I swear, kids nowadays.

But yeah, while we differ on whether those elements are/are not racist/etc, I'm glad we both agree nothing was actively attempted to sew such beliefs by Bay and company. It's nice to agree with you for a change.