The Energon Pub

[Albatross250]

ALREADY SIGHTED AND AVAILABLE IN ASIA RETAILS?! (PH)

Yes it hurts my wallet very much

[Stuartmaximus]

ALREADY SIGHTED AND AVAILABLE IN ASIA RETAILS?! (PH)

Yes it hurts my wallet very much

whaa....? the Takara version?

[DeathReviews]

A thought - the spring in the hip rotation joints. Is it possible that you have to pull the hip outward slightly in order to rotate them safely? And that the spring was meant to pull them back into place once released? That's what I might do if I wanted to engineer a heavy figure that would have a mechanism that allowed for hip rotation, and yet have them lock in place afterwards to prevent slippage...

[Nemesis Destron]

Well this is a huge disappointment. You'd think that QC would have caught this issue.

Is this a deal breaker for anyone?

Hell yes it is!!!

I really hope the guys at Takara are looking at what's going on. Look the bottom line is I don't fork out my hard earned money on TFs especially expensive ones to break apart due QC BS... . I also don't wish to have to open things up and fart around with parts, too much money is involved for me to have to do that. There may be those who may enjoy this or don't mind but not me.

So unless can help rectify things it pains me to say that I will not be getting Trypticon...'nuff said!

[Kurona]

We could also get a running change. Stuff like this happens all the time, right?

[Ravage XK]

I have a pre order and unless there is a fix or you do have to pull the legs to move them I'm thinking of cancelling.

[RiddlerJ]

OH, COME ON!

I was all excited about Tryppy coming soon and this has to pop up.

[william-james88]

whaa....? the Takara version?

No, the Hasbro version. He wrote PH for philipines, so that can only mean Hasbro version since the takara version only sells in Japan.

We could also get a running change. Stuff like this happens all the time, right?

Yes it does. More reason for me to wait till after christmas for this toy.

[Nemesis Destron]

whaa....? the Takara version?

No, the Hasbro version. He wrote PH for philipines, so that can only mean Hasbro version since the takara version only sells in Japan.

We could also get a running change. Stuff like this happens all the time, right?

Yes it does. More reason for me to wait till after christmas for this toy.

After Christmas...?

[william-james88]

whaa....? the Takara version?

No, the Hasbro version. He wrote PH for philipines, so that can only mean Hasbro version since the takara version only sells in Japan.

We could also get a running change. Stuff like this happens all the time, right?

Yes it does. More reason for me to wait till after christmas for this toy.

After Christmas...?

Yup, any money I get at christmas will be going towards what I hope is an on sale and fixed second run Trypticon

[Nemesis Destron]

whaa....? the Takara version?

No, the Hasbro version. He wrote PH for philipines, so that can only mean Hasbro version since the takara version only sells in Japan.

We could also get a running change. Stuff like this happens all the time, right?

Yes it does. More reason for me to wait till after christmas for this toy.

After Christmas...?

Yup, any money I get at christmas will be going towards what I hope is an on sale and fixed second run Trypticon

Riiiiight-got it.

[Cobotron]

I'll wait for someone else to do a full explanation of the problem before I go into panic mode.

[Jelze Bunnycat]

I'll wait for someone else to do a full explanation of the problem before I go into panic mode.

Qwan did a page back.

The long and the short of it is that the springs in the ratchet joints are really strong, to the point they could lock up. If excessive force is applied to get it to move again when that happens, the internal structure of joint gets wrecked to heavens due to the springs not budging. By the by, they're BIG, like the width of an earthworm.

[DeathReviews]

Can anyone confirm my suspicion that users are supposed to pull the hip joints outward slightly when rotating, so the plastic ratchets have clearance of each other? And the spring pulls the hips back in when released?

[RiddlerJ]

Trypticon 3rd party add on:

23643.jpg

[Nemesis Destron]

[Chriphord]

I'm really hoping it's something that can be easily resolved, as far as his hips go. I'd be disappointed but ok with his legs only being able to safely rotate forwards as the video review had said, if the hips do indeed need to be angled out to release tension, or if Qwan's spring adjustment works well. I've just been ready for this figure since the poll took place and I don't want to be disappointed because of QC xD

[Qwan]

Can anyone confirm my suspicion that users are supposed to pull the hip joints outward slightly when rotating, so the plastic ratchets have clearance of each other? And the spring pulls the hips back in when released?

I can confirm that this is not the case. The springs aren't attached to anything so they wouldn't be able to pull anything together, and the rotation for the hips (basically a fully-enclosed giant mushroom peg with a ratchet inside) doesn't allow any leeway whatsoever for pulling the hips outward. The spring is definitely designed to be super-compressed and push outward, rather than extend and pull inward.
So sadly, that design isn't the case here - although I agree it would probably work quite well for a large figure like this!

By the by, they're BIG, like the width of an earthworm.

Looking back that was a bit of an exaggeration on my part; that was back when I was just 'reviewing' the figure for fun (the issue hadn't made itself known yet) and the description was more of a comedy decision than an accuracy one. They are seriously big though, way more so than I think any other spring I've seen, certainly on a toy. And really sturdy too; I put one under the corner of my bed for an hour or so to try and compress it down (which I'd prefer over cutting them, if possible) and it made literally no difference whatsoever.

I finally got around to taking a photo of them, actually. Here they are, with Krok for size reference (he was the only decent comparison I had on me) - Titan Masters can fit inside them. Yeah that's big.

[DeathReviews]

I can confirm that this is not the case. The springs aren't attached to anything so they wouldn't be able to pull anything together, and the rotation for the hips (basically a fully-enclosed giant mushroom peg with a ratchet inside) doesn't allow any leeway whatsoever for pulling the hips outward. The spring is definitely designed to be super-compressed and push outward, rather than extend and pull inward.
So sadly, that design isn't the case here - although I agree it would probably work quite well for a large figure like this!

Alas. Well, I will likely sharpen the sickle and do some surgery on my Trypticon in that case. I certainly don't want to wind up with a mess of twisted plastic inside the legs.

[ScottyP]

The overdone hip springs don't reek of bad QC, but rather poorly thought out QA. Overcompensating for a fix to the point of creating a new problem hurts to read about.

Didn't they learn anything from Unique Toys Siegfried?

[Dr. Caelus]

I'm trying to work out what sort of replacement springs a person would need to buy. I'm not sure shortening the spring is the best solution, but it is a solution, if done right. I found a thread about springs used in guns, and the discussion highlights how complicated the math is.

Apparently, cutting coils off of a spring technically makes the spring stronger, because the strength of the spring is relative to its own length. If it takes x amount of force to compress a spring to its solid height, after reducing the free length of the spring, it will take more force to compress it to its solid height, because you have less leverage, and you have to compress it further to reach its solid height. I tried to follow the math, but it was difficult.

As best I understand it, if you compress a 10" spring by 4" (10"-4" = 6") you're compressing it by 40%. If you reduce the free length of the spring by 2" (10"-2"= 8") and then compress your cut down spring by 4" (8"-4"), you're compressing it by 50%. In both cases, you're compressing it over the same distance (4"), but the amount of compression involved increases (from 40% to 50%) as you shorten the spring.

However, that's considering the free length vs the working length. In the toy, the springs aren't at their free length by default, they are at their installed length, which makes things different - by reducing the number of coils in the spring, while keeping the installed length constant, you are (just as intuition would dictate) reducing the spring's 'strength', and therefore reducing the pressure on the joint when the toy is at rest.

Let's say the installed length is 1.0", and the teeth on the ratchet are 0.1" deep. If the spring's free length is 1.5", the installed length of 1.0" has the spring at 33% compression, and the working length, the length of the spring when the teeth are 'on edge', has the spring at 40% compression. The joint, of course, is under more strain when the teeth are on edge - that's what pushes them into place, and provides resistance to the joint's rotation.

Now, cut the spring down a bit to 1.25". Keeping everything else the same, the spring is now only compressed by 20% when the teeth are together, and 28% when on edge. The joint is under much less strain in both positions, and depending on how heavy Trypticon's upper-body is, he may face-plant. Obviously, if you mess up and cut the free length down to less than the installed length, he will almost definitely be permanently screwed up.

But here's the really weird part that confuses the heck out of me. Leaving the installed length and the working length the same means that, turning the ratchet requires a 0.1" compression from 1.0" to 0.9". Now, for the 1.5" spring, that 0.1" change is a 6.67% change in compression, but for the 1.25" spring, that's an 8% change in compression as the ratchet's teeth move across each other. So, if you cut the spring down, the static compression of spring is decreased, but the change in compression when the joint turns is increased.

I'm a psychologist, not an engineer, so I have no idea what the implications of that are for the torque placed on those plastic tabs when the leg is turned. I assume that it wouldn't be a problem, but I'm not 100% confident. The other problem is that the spring has 'closed coils' at each end, and cutting a closed coil off one end of the spring may not have the outcome that would be expected; for one thing the cut end of the spring may drag across the plastic like a needle on a record player.

If, hypothetically, anyone decides to replace their springs, rather than shorten them, here are the things I think you need to keep in mind:

Dimensions that must be the same as the vanilla springs used in Trypticon:

Interior Diameter - Must be bigger than whatever slips through it.
Outside Diameter - Must be smaller than whatever the spring fits in.
Installed Length - Must be less than the Free Length of the replacement spring.
Working Length - Must be more than the Solid Height of the replacement spring.

Changing these dimensions may screw up the functionality of the toy, or the springs may simply not fit inside the joint.

Dimensions that can be shortened to reduce spring strength:
Free Length - Length of the spring outside of the mechanism, with no pressure on it.
Solid Height - Length of the spring outside of the mechanism, when pressed as far as it can go.

Shortening the spring will make it weaker, but if you shorten it past its Installed Length the toy will become floppy. If you shorten it past its Working Length, the spring will no longer function at all.

Variables requiring completely new springs:
Wire Material - I think softer metals should be weaker.
Wire Diameter - Thinner wire will be weaker.

I don't know how a thinner/softer spring will hold up over time - if the toy is stored/displayed with the springs compressed to their working length, the springs may need to be replaced again in the future.

[Qwan]

[INCREDIBLY SMART STUFF]

Wow, that is... really impressive research, man. It's interesting to read about all the factors that have to go into deciding spring length, strength, working length etc. to get the desired result. It's crazy! (Makes me feel a lot less sure that just cutting down the springs will solve the problem, except...)


Last night I finally tried my proposed solution of cutting the springs (on the not-yet-destroyed hip of my Trypticon) and it seems to have worked pretty well after all! I'll admit I was worried in particular about

cutting a closed coil off one end of the spring may not have the outcome that would be expected; for one thing the cut end of the spring may drag across the plastic like a needle on a record player.

for exactly that reason (and since I wasn't too sure what it'd do to the mechanism if one end wasn't sitting flat), but surprisingly it doesn't seem to be a problem so far - though admittedly I only tested it for a few minutes.

I'll try and get a tutorial up later today (I've already got the photos taken, but it's hard to upload them at work) but for now, I'll say that it seems like about half the original length is a fairly good balance - it doesn't feel like there's any dangerous pressure but there are still clear ratchet points, though they're now more of a guideline than they are real locking points. In fact they still have enough hold that I got Trypticon standing both straight and in an action pose, unassisted, with half a spring installed in his left hip and no ratchet at all in the right (and no added friction to the joints or anything). I'll reconfirm how well this works tonight once I've exchanged the broken Tryp for a new one and gone through the process on that one (and I wouldn't recommend anyone do this to theirs until I can confirm that this works and holds up fine), but it seems quite promising so far.

[Dr. Caelus]

Qwan; if I may ask, is the wire too strong to bend with needle nose pliers? Thanks!

[nilocomic]

Curious to see the tutorial for cutting the springs. Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention!

[Qwan]

Qwan; if I may ask, is the wire too strong to bend with needle nose pliers? Thanks!

I wouldn't say it's too strong to do so, but it's definitely strong enough to be plenty difficult. I think maybe the spring bent outward a tiny bit while I was cutting it? But on the other hand, I put one of the springs under the corner of my bed for like an hour to try and compress it, and it made exactly zero difference. I guess that makes some sense when you think that the whole point of these springs (and most springs I guess) is to be flexible without actually being bendable, so to speak.

Curious to see the tutorial for cutting the springs. Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention!

No problem, and thank you! I've relied on figure mods (be they life-saving or just ease-of-use things) so often in the past, that I figured now I have the chance I should try and be part of the solution for once.

(Speaking of, I'm starting to think maybe I should make my own thread for the full tutorial. I'll obviously give a quick-if-functional run-down here, but with all the explanation and images I'm planning to include, I don't want to clog up this thread too much with a gigantic planet-eating post. Chances are I'll run through the process in brief, then include a link to the new thread for anyone who wants a more detailed explanation of how I did it. Either way, expect that pretty soon probably - I have my new Trypticon, I've cut his springs down to half size, and though he's a tiny bit wobblier now he also feels significantly less like a ticking time bomb. )