The Energon Pub

[Dr. Caelus]

Earthspark is generally geared toward a younger audience that is impressionable and not ready for more mature gray/blurred ideas like pronouns. Personally, it does seem like woke grooming and I totally understand any parental outrage.

I have two family members who are trans, and of all of us, my son has certainly had the least difficulty with the 'mature' issue of 'pronouns'. We had to tell him it was rude to go up to people and ask them if they have a penis - that was a necessary discussion either way, and it's been the most complex parenting required so far regarding the topic of gender.

All in all, I appreciate Earthspark showing that being nonbinary or non-cis is uncommon but not weird, all the moreso because Nightshade has turned into a character who is awesome for reasons unrelated to their gender identity.

As a parent, I don't have the resources to make the TV shows I want my children to watch, but I do have the power to withold the shows I don't want them to watch. So, if parents don't want their children exposed to something in particular, they can do what I do - tell them no, they can't watch it, and deal with that.

'Parents' trying to erase queer, trans*, or non-binary characters from every scrap of media (or even publuc space) that their child might see, so that they can pretend that people like my nephew or my cousin don't exist, is BS.

Also, with people who always want to ban things because 'they aren't ready to answer their child's questions about it', I always have to wonder if they even parent at all?

[william-james88]

I watched the news clip a day or so ago and was wondering if or when there'd be a thread, lol.

I wasn't sure if I should news it, but with this becoming a Transformers related story that actually is getting covered by mainsteam media, like the New York Post, I would be remiss if it wasn't covered on an actual TF news site. My main mistake is that I should have titled it "Megyn Kelly of Fox News Fame" rather than "Fox News' Megyn Kelly" just to be a bit more accurate in the title and avoid two apostraphes back to back.

My issue with Earthspark and I'll admit I'm not as caught up on the show as I should be, is that having a character make an issue about pronouns is clearly trying to bring the larger debate to a kids' show, that's something I'm not OK with as it's taking decision making authority from parents over what they want their kids to know and when.

As a parent, I can tell you that we do not have the decision making authority for what our kids know regarding this matter. The government has legalized gay marriage and not only same sex married couples could adopt or have kids through in vitro fertilization and a surrogate. That means that we live in a time when some kids are aware of same sex relationships from the moment they can talk. You can extrapolate that to any kind of relationship, be it of two men where one identifies as a woman or of a man and a woman where they both identify as male. Either way, their child will be made aware of their parents' identity as early as kids are aware of the social norms of a male dad and a female mom.
And for kids of hetero couples, they then become aware of all that from the moment they are in the same daycare or classroom as kids with same sex parents (or any other non cis scenario). So in reality, parents no longer have any authority on the matter. The only way to get it back (if parents feel it has been taken from them) would be to segregate children of hetero couples into private institutions where kids of same sex couple or trans people cannot go to, or to institute homeschooling at the national level.

So the paradigm has shifted and we are now living in a state of flux as the norm settles on all kids being made aware of same sex and trans couples being parents as they are of hetero couples being parents.

I want to make something clear here, I am not saying I am for or against any of what I mentioned, I just wanted to explain the current reality as a parent, since it was brought up. Parents do not have a choice, this is the new norm. The only way to change that is through legislation by denying certain couples the right to be parents or through segregation. Though, honestly, I don't think there's anyway the genie can be put back in the lamp; case in point, here's a shot of the kids' book section at my local TJMaxx store where I bring my kids to shop (and sometimes find TF toys).

[Sard]

:roll: Major Rant incoming (Since We decided we had to make a news article that clearly talks about politics, don't be surprised that I talk about politics. )

You know, I generally watch/play/read media to ESCAPE the real-world/overly political side of things. I watched up to maybe episode 4 of Earthspark (a show which I wasn't entirely enjoying to be honest) before I said I'd take a break. Found out a while later that Nightshade fell into the political vat, and I decided the show wasn't worth my time. It doesn't matter how you try to spin it in the show about how it "makes sense", because it's the year 2023, and I know the real-world reason why it's being done. Of course adding identity- politics into a show which, let's be honest, the target demographic being children, I find to be underhanded. It's not just Transformers either; many cartoons, comics, games, movies, etc. of ESTABLISHED IPS have more or less been up-ended for "modern" audiences, and said IPs (and the fans that made them what they are) are the ones that suffer in quality and/or revenue. I sure most will see it as innocent and don't see the harm in a sentient robot referring to himself as "they" (even though grammatically it's disingenuous), but it more or less tells kids that this type of behavior is acceptable. I know a lot of parents who are just tired of having identity politics entrenched in their kids' entertainment (even education), and even adults who steer clear of media with it now.

In the end, all I'll say, is keep identity-politics out of entertainment.

Also, I would respectfully request that we refrain from bringing up topics like this again in the future, since I know people on both sides can be very "passionate" about their views, and civil discussions aren't always on the minds of most who wander on the forums.

I registered a year ago and this is only my third post here, so I apologize if this post breaks etiquette but it's not like I've got the enmeshed concerns of community here that more longstanding posters have. With that out of the way: a passionate response:

This is nonsense, and worse, it's the kind of tiring nonsense that pretends that the status quo is neutral and that it's your ideological other that's stirring the pot. None of this is new, especially not the hate being directed at it. I was bullied relentlessly in grade school because of the mere rumor that I was gay, and one of the biggest reasons for that rumor was that I had been raised to believe that "this type of behavior is acceptable." Maybe if more shows like this were around back then, I could have had a less miserable childhood. Maybe it's better that kids are shown a better point of view than the fear inherited by their parents. The words have changed over the years but the tune remains the same, I've seen nothing of this latest fearmongering that wouldn't fit alongside the hysterical ranting of my school years—bleating that traditionalists now pretend they never uttered, as they ready charges against their new targets.

It's bewildering that anyone here can get into a setting like Transformers, where when it isn't selling toys is staging both basic and thoughtful explorations of the themes of freedom and identity, and come away with this worldview. You're calling this a modern scheme, but hateful people were burning books and clinics a century ago over just this topic. People have been attacked, censured, and left on the street because of this topic. If we are discussing this civilly, then let us be honest. Which side of history do you think it is that keeps making something like this a moral panic, and then a violent one? Looking back, when it was interracial couples, when it was women's equality, when it was homosexual culture, when it was all these accusedly insidious things that were being slipped into the minds of the youngest generation, how much harm came of it? And how much real, physical harm came of the reactionary uproar in opposition?

[TFfan1]

I want to make something clear here, I am not saying I am for or against any of what I mentioned, I just wanted to explain the current reality as a parent, since it was brought up. Parents do not have a choice, this is the new norm. The only way to change that is through legislation by denying certain couples the right to be parents or through segregation. Though, honestly, I don't think there's anyway the genie can be put back in the lamp; case in point, here's a shot of the kids' book section at my local TJMaxx store where I bring my kids to shop (and sometimes find TF toys).

The fact that you said that parents have "no choice" in their children being aware that people who don't live the way do existing is pretty telling about what you're against. Sorry, but people exist, and your children having fellow students whose parents are gay or trans doesn't take anything away from you.

What about trans or non-binary kids who grow up in insular communities, and never get to see or meet anyone who experiences the same thing they do? How lonely and alienating that must be, compared to seeing someone like you in your favorite kids show.

[Dragon_Lord]

I never personally understood the strong desire to identify with any fictional character. Sure I have my favorites, but I was never looking for any individual in television or movies thanking "Yeah THAT's ME", but apparently it is common.

Same here. I live in the Caribbean and never saw this behavior in the children of my generation or people from my same age group around other countries in Latin America. Sure, we all had our favorite characters, but the attitude was more of "I want to be like him" aspiring to be like the character you like rather that "I like him because that's me". Like a role model, so to speak.


I already replied to this, but apparently it got lost in the moderation limbo...

It's just that I've been burned several times by a news post that talk about a certain social issue, then we respond to that specific social issue that was reported in the news post, brought by a news staff, then a certain mod comes along, have an emotional freak out, then point a gun to our head saying "SHUT UP, OR ELSE."

To be fair, from what I've seen, here in Seibertron at the very least there's a more nuance approach about commenting this type stuff than I've seen in some other forums.

[william-james88]

I want to make something clear here, I am not saying I am for or against any of what I mentioned, I just wanted to explain the current reality as a parent, since it was brought up. Parents do not have a choice, this is the new norm. The only way to change that is through legislation by denying certain couples the right to be parents or through segregation. Though, honestly, I don't think there's anyway the genie can be put back in the lamp; case in point, here's a shot of the kids' book section at my local TJMaxx store where I bring my kids to shop (and sometimes find TF toys).

The fact that you said that parents have "no choice" in their children being aware that people who don't live the way do existing is pretty telling about what you're against. Sorry, but people exist, and your children having fellow students whose parents are gay or trans doesn't take anything away from you.

What about trans or non-binary kids who grow up in insular communities, and never get to see or meet anyone who experiences the same thing they do? How lonely and alienating that must be, compared to seeing someone like you in your favorite kids show.

I did not say what I am personally for or against at all, and you do not know me, you do not know what kind of relationship I am in, so please do not put words in my mouth. If I wrote something in a way that you feel was disrespectful, please know that english is my second language, I meant no ill will towards anyone.
My goal was to answer someone who was using "parent's choice" as a factor in the argument currently going on, and gave examples to illustrate the paradigm shift. Nothing more, nothing less. I never gave my own opinion on the matter. Parent's choice to let their kids know about these topics is not an argument in this scenario since it does not exist. As you stated, these people exist, and kids will know of their existence despite whatever their parents want them to know or not know.

If you want to know my personal opinion, you can reach out to me via private message as I feel that is the better spot for that.

Regarding this show itself, I have no issue with it. I just want good transformers toys of these characters. I do find it interesting though that it took a media presence to increase the level of interaction on this specific topic, when it's a transformers site and the episode has been around for months. I get that people over 60 are just talking about this now, but why wasn't this discussion happening months ago here?

[Dr. Caelus]

I get that people over 60 are just talking about this now, but why wasn't this discussion happening months ago here?

It did. (Edit: Go back to p.20 of this thread.)

Some of the details were different and maybe the intensity was different. Nightshade was kind of a useless character starting out, so I for one was rather disappointed by their inclusion. Since then, they've turned out to be awesome, so now there's admittedly an investment that was lacking before.

[Sabrblade]

Nightshade hadn't really done anything noteworthy in the show back when the three new Terrans first appeared in the show. It wasn't until the second batch of episodes dropped that all three finally got some due attention in the spotlight to really make the three of them stand out on their own as individuals and become as well-liked as they are now.

(Though, Hashtag's name is still very dated-on-arrival)

[Jelze Bunnycat]

So many things I wanna say... Honestly, less about the article itself and more about the fallout or how people are responding to it.

Looking through the Twitter thread... Responses are really all over the place. To me, the scariest ones would have to be from the religious folk, from the distrustful of the "untraditional" people, from the prejudiced, from the paranoid of malicious intent, and from the ignorant ("Putting 'trans' in Transformers"). I know, not mutually exclusive...

Down to the core, multimedia is nothing more than a catalyst, it's to the people to respond to it however they see fit... and taking responsibility for the actions they do take. That's all I'm gonna say

It is worth noting that US elections are coming up next year...

[Dr. Caelus]

(Though, Hashtag's name is still very dated-on-arrival)

At least it doesn't offend British people like so many TF names seem to.

And it's not something like "Carbombya".

Or "Windbreaker".

[Sabrblade]

(Though, Hashtag's name is still very dated-on-arrival)

At least it doesn't offend British people like so many TF names seem to.

And it's not something like "Carbombya".

Or "Windbreaker".

Had it been me who named her, I'd have give her a name that Hasbro has already had trademarked before for a female Transformer, one that's not well-known and thus could have been made all her own, and one that would have still fit perfectly with her Internet abilities without being too on the nose: "Cyberwarp".

[Dr. Caelus]

(Though, Hashtag's name is still very dated-on-arrival)

At least it doesn't offend British people like so many TF names seem to.

And it's not something like "Carbombya".

Or "Windbreaker".

Had it been me who named her, I'd have give her a name that Hasbro has already had trademarked before for a female Transformer, one that's not well-known and thus could have been made all her own, and one that would have still fit perfectly with her Internet abilities without being too on the nose: "Cyberwarp".

They already have Skywarp in the show, and like to reserve partial name reuse for upgraded forms.

"Greenlight" would have been good if you thought of it in reference to a power symbol or a wifi symbol, And Elita-1 could have started building her gang.

[Sabrblade]

and like to reserve partial name reuse for upgraded forms.

Says who?

[Dr. Caelus]

and like to reserve partial name reuse for upgraded forms.

Says who?

Don't they though?

Megatron to Galvatron
Hot Rod to Rodimus Prime
Ultra Magnus to Ultra Mammoth
Optimus Primal to Optimal Optimus
Starscream to Hellscream

I should have said, 'and clones' (e.g., Optimus Minor, Nemesis Prime, Megaplex, Soundblaster) 'or combiners (e.g., Galvatronus, Optimus Maximus)

They generally try to avoid unrelated characters having similar names in close proximity. You don't often see characters like Shadowstriker and Shadowstrip, Inferno and Twinferno, Thundercracker and Thunderwing, etc. around at the same time.

[Flashwave]

I don't know who she is, but she is late.

Not only has our own toxic side of the Fandom already made this crack, but we have had time to make memes about the toxic fans and move on.

[Sabrblade]

and like to reserve partial name reuse for upgraded forms.

Says who?

Don't they though?

...

They generally try to avoid unrelated characters having similar names in close proximity. You don't often see characters like Shadowstriker and Shadowstrip, Inferno and Twinferno, Thundercracker and Thunderwing, etc. around at the same time.

We just had the Cyberverse cartoon with both Acid Storm and Nova Storm in it as separate characters who worked together.

Not to mention the Siege three-pack that had both of them (well, their G1 versions) and Ion Storm packed together.

And all three of whom are also separate characters from Sunstorm.

[Dr. Caelus]

and like to reserve partial name reuse for upgraded forms.

Says who?

Don't they though?

We just had the Cyberverse carton with both Acid Storm and Nova Storm in it as separate characters who worked together. Not to mention the Siege three-pack that had both of them and Ion Storm in it.

Those are related characters. Close allies who share the same body and are part of the same subgroup, the "Rainmakers", which references their unifying names.

[Sabrblade]

and like to reserve partial name reuse for upgraded forms.

Says who?

Don't they though?

We just had the Cyberverse carton with both Acid Storm and Nova Storm in it as separate characters who worked together. Not to mention the Siege three-pack that had both of them and Ion Storm in it.

Those are related characters. Close allies who share the same body and are part of the same subgroup, the "Rainmakers", which references their unifying names.

You can't keep making up rules to support you're argument as you go along.

You want two characters with shared partial names who have no relation to each other but have still coexisted and interacted with each other in the same work? Fine. Megatron and Tigatron from Beast Wars. By your own previous example of "Megatron to Galvatron", the name "Tigatron" ought to refer to a tiger-themed upgraded version of "Megatron", but it does not.

Besides, EarthSpark Skywarp is not a main character, and looks nothing like Hashtag or vice versa. There would be no confusion between the two.

[DeathReviews]

:roll: Major Rant incoming (Since We decided we had to make a news article that clearly talks about politics, don't be surprised that I talk about politics. )

You know, I generally watch/play/read media to ESCAPE the real-world/overly political side of things. I watched up to maybe episode 4 of Earthspark (a show which I wasn't entirely enjoying to be honest) before I said I'd take a break. Found out a while later that Nightshade fell into the political vat, and I decided the show wasn't worth my time. It doesn't matter how you try to spin it in the show about how it "makes sense", because it's the year 2023, and I know the real-world reason why it's being done. Of course adding identity- politics into a show which, let's be honest, the target demographic being children, I find to be underhanded. It's not just Transformers either; many cartoons, comics, games, movies, etc. of ESTABLISHED IPS have more or less been up-ended for "modern" audiences, and said IPs (and the fans that made them what they are) are the ones that suffer in quality and/or revenue. I sure most will see it as innocent and don't see the harm in a sentient robot referring to himself as "they" (even though grammatically it's disingenuous), but it more or less tells kids that this type of behavior is acceptable. I know a lot of parents who are just tired of having identity politics entrenched in their kids' entertainment (even education), and even adults who steer clear of media with it now.

In the end, all I'll say, is keep identity-politics out of entertainment.

Also, I would respectfully request that we refrain from bringing up topics like this again in the future, since I know people on both sides can be very "passionate" about their views, and civil discussions aren't always on the minds of most who wander on the forums.

Months ago, the promo articles had the show writers/producers saying that the purpose of Earthspark was 'to re-define what it meant to be a family'. That was when I suspected it was going to be sub-par, because they were investing their energy into a desire to participate in social restructuring, rather than on quality storytelling.

I'm sure it's not a bad series. But it hasn't been a quantum leap of awesomeness. There was never any huge groundswell from fans of the Transformers franchise, begging Hollywood to use the brand as a puppet to 'redefine the family', or to re-invent grammar so that pronouns would be subject to individual interpretation. Hollywood made a conscious decision to use this show to influence these issues (however gently) by telling viewers what they should want, instead of giving audiences what they actually want. And viewers will eventually show resentment for that kind of presumption, in the form of lower ratings and sales.

[Jelze Bunnycat]

and like to reserve partial name reuse for upgraded forms.

Says who?

Don't they though?

We just had the Cyberverse carton with both Acid Storm and Nova Storm in it as separate characters who worked together. Not to mention the Siege three-pack that had both of them and Ion Storm in it.

Those are related characters. Close allies who share the same body and are part of the same subgroup, the "Rainmakers", which references their unifying names.

You can't keep making up rules to support you're argument as you go along.

You want two characters with shared partial names who have no relation to each other but have still coexisted and interacted with each other in the same work? Fine. Megatron and Tigatron from Beast Wars. By your own previous example of "Megatron to Galvatron", the name "Tigatron" ought to refer to a tiger-themed upgraded version of "Megatron", but it does not.

The supposed rule going one way does not guarantee its validity going the other way.

[Sabrblade]

and like to reserve partial name reuse for upgraded forms.

Says who?

Don't they though?

We just had the Cyberverse carton with both Acid Storm and Nova Storm in it as separate characters who worked together. Not to mention the Siege three-pack that had both of them and Ion Storm in it.

Those are related characters. Close allies who share the same body and are part of the same subgroup, the "Rainmakers", which references their unifying names.

You can't keep making up rules to support you're argument as you go along.

You want two characters with shared partial names who have no relation to each other but have still coexisted and interacted with each other in the same work? Fine. Megatron and Tigatron from Beast Wars. By your own previous example of "Megatron to Galvatron", the name "Tigatron" ought to refer to a tiger-themed upgraded version of "Megatron", but it does not.

The supposed rule going one way does not guarantee its validity going the other way.

Another example: The Autobot Spychanger Ironhide and the Decepticon Commando Armorhide from Robots in Disguise 2001. The name "Armorhide" was even later used as an alternate name for Animated Ironhide when that series was brought over to Japan (due to Takara reassigning the "Ironhide" name to Animated Bulkhead instead).

[Dr. Caelus]

and like to reserve partial name reuse for upgraded forms.

Says who?

Don't they though?

We just had the Cyberverse carton with both Acid Storm and Nova Storm in it as separate characters who worked together. Not to mention the Siege three-pack that had both of them and Ion Storm in it.

Those are related characters. Close allies who share the same body and are part of the same subgroup, the "Rainmakers", which references their unifying names.

You can't keep making up rules to support you're argument as you go along.

You want two characters with shared partial names who have no relation to each other but have still coexisted and interacted with each other in the same work? Fine. Megatron and Tigatron from Beast Wars. By your own previous example of "Megatron to Galvatron", the name "Tigatron" ought to refer to a tiger-themed upgraded version of "Megatron", but it does not.

The supposed rule going one way does not guarantee its validity going the other way.

Megatron/Tigatron was a good example of an exception though.

[Sabrblade]

The Robots in Disguise 2015 toyline also had Shockdrive, who had nothing to do with Shockwave.

Oh! That brings to mind the most famous example of all: Shockwave and Soundwave! And Tidal Wave!

And then there's Hot Rod and Hot Shot. Also Hot Spot, Hot House, Hotlink, Hotwire, Hotspark, etc.

[Dr. Caelus]

The Robots in Disguise 2015 toyline also had Shockdrive, who had nothing to do with Shockwave.

Oh! That brings to mind the most famous example of all: Shockwave and Soundwave! And Tidal Wave!

And then there's Hot Rod and Hot Shot. Also Hot Spot, Hot House, Hotlink, Hotwire, Hotspark, etc.

Shockwave/Soundwave were entrenched by tradition; they have seldom showed up alongside the newcomer, Tidalwave, and were kept apart for a long time, with Shockwave doing a long stint as Shockblast.

The others have also largely been kept apart on screen and on shelves.

[Sabrblade]

There's also Computron, who met Galvatron in his debut episode.

And the aforementioned Ironhide/Armorhide example I gave above (in case you missed it).