The Energon Pub

Kurona wrote:

Prowl4 wrote:

Hellscream9999 wrote:

Prowl4 wrote:That makes a good bit of sense. I'd be the opposite if this blurr, sentinel, galvatron, astrotrain and scourge had fixed heads I'd buy them. But because they don't I won't. I don't really get the appeal of headmasters at all but to each their own.

But sentinel's essentially a new character, so whats wrong here?

No he's not. If anything sentinel prime is the iron man of transformers not a headmaster.

Not... really. Sentinel Prime is one of those weird characters that never has a very well-defined place, set of morals or what sort of guy he was. Optimus you can expect him to be an Autobot leader who stands up for freedom and justice; Starscream you can expect to be a devious Decepticon in a high position with great flight prowess and designs on betraying Megatron... but Sentinel? In his three main appearances - Animated, IDW and Dark of the Moon - he's seemed completely different in each one. They share some aspects but there's no one version of the guy you can point to and say "That's the definite sentinel". All we can really expect is that he's a Prime who is not quite as good as Optimus as upholding the grandiose and nobility that rank grants, yet somehow ends up with a great reputation. And details of even those aspects always seem to vary. So... yeah. Making him a Headmaster? Not really farfetched, especially when G1 Sentinel has never had an official toy before.

No that's unfortunately incorrect.

Sentinel in IDW was the Iron Man in so far as he was a bot that had a power up suit similar to Iron Man it even had a HUD. Now that was just IDW except for what was to happen next in Animated and not only was it talked about but the art of animated season 3 showed Sentinel Prime again in a powered up suit like Iron Man. So essentially two out of three animated versions were shown to have power up suits. That's a pretty definitive trait in my opinion. Also Bay's version certainly wasn't a headmaster and had more of the traits of Nova Prime in a way than Sentinel. Even Zeta Prime who was named fully as Sentinel Zeta Prime in WFC had a power up mode when facing Megatron.

So yeah I don't think this character nor galvatron(since he states his disgust of headmasters in idw), blurr, scourge or astrotrain should be headmasters.

Sabrblade wrote:

Prowl4 wrote:Changing a character from a non headmaster to a headmaster is a massive change fundamentally to the character. Updating vehicle modes etc is fine. You seem to be missing the point. I'm surprised at how people like and defend characters that have no right to be altered in such an incredibly drastic way. Maybe the vitriol only comes when your name is Michael bay lol.

Were you upset when 1988 made a Powermaster toy for the previously non-Powermaster character Optimus Prime, or made Classic Pretender toys for the previously non-Pretender characters Bumblebee, Jazz, Grimlock, and Starscream?

Wasn't alive then but think they're complete dirt yeah.

Prowl4 wrote:No that's unfortunately incorrect.

Sentinel in IDW was the Iron Man in so far as he was a bot that had a power up suit similar to Iron Man it even had a HUD. Now that was just IDW except for what was to happen next in Animated and not only was it talked about but the art of animated season 3 showed Sentinel Prime again in a powered up suit like Iron Man. So essentially two out of three animated versions were shown to have power up suits. That's a pretty definitive trait in my opinion. Also Bay's version certainly wasn't a headmaster and had more of the traits of Nova Prime in a way than Sentinel. Even Zeta Prime who was named fully as Sentinel Zeta Prime in WFC had a power up mode when facing Megatron.

So yeah I don't think this character nor galvatron(since he states his disgust of headmasters in idw), blurr, scourge or astrotrain should be headmasters.

The way you worded your original sentence made it sound like you were saying that Sentinel Prime was a very important character (as Iron Man is pivotal in the MCU), which is most certainly not the case. And having suits of armor in a couple of your appearances doesn't make you Iron Man, as his suit is one of his distinct characteristics. If your logic is true, then IDW Megatron and Minimus Ambus would also be the Iron Man of Transformers, and Megazarak from The Headmasters would be Captain America (as he uses a shield).

Not sure if people know yet, but we did recieve word from a few fans that the Titans Return Leaders are up at BBTS. Then again, thats probably why we've been having this discussion on whether or not we want either of these two:

http://www.bigbadtoystore.com/bbts/sear ... s%20return

william-james88 wrote:Not sure if people know yet, but we did recieve word from a few fans that the Titans Return Leaders are up at BBTS. Then again, thats probably why we've been having this discussion on whether or not we want either of these two:

http://www.bigbadtoystore.com/bbts/sear ... s%20return

Yeah, I know, and I would have pre-ordered that daggumed PMOP on its own if it wasn't out of stock.

Autobot N wrote:

Prowl4 wrote:No that's unfortunately incorrect.

Sentinel in IDW was the Iron Man in so far as he was a bot that had a power up suit similar to Iron Man it even had a HUD. Now that was just IDW except for what was to happen next in Animated and not only was it talked about but the art of animated season 3 showed Sentinel Prime again in a powered up suit like Iron Man. So essentially two out of three animated versions were shown to have power up suits. That's a pretty definitive trait in my opinion. Also Bay's version certainly wasn't a headmaster and had more of the traits of Nova Prime in a way than Sentinel. Even Zeta Prime who was named fully as Sentinel Zeta Prime in WFC had a power up mode when facing Megatron.

So yeah I don't think this character nor galvatron(since he states his disgust of headmasters in idw), blurr, scourge or astrotrain should be headmasters.

The way you worded your original sentence made it sound like you were saying that Sentinel Prime was a very important character (as Iron Man is pivotal in the MCU), which is most certainly not the case. And having suits of armor in a couple of your appearances doesn't make you Iron Man, as his suit is one of his distinct characteristics. If your logic is true, then IDW Megatron and Minimus Ambus would also be the Iron Man of Transformers, and Megazarak from The Headmasters would be Captain America (as he uses a shield).

Well a prime is important in any continuity I would assume but in his iteration in IDW and Animated he was important enough given the fact he was a pretty important person on Megatron's rise and in season 3 of Animated he was to be sentinel magnus, not to mention bay had him as a pretty important individual. Not as in an avenger that is basically the leader of the MCU. He's essentially the same as iron man in that most of his appearances he has had power up suits as I said both in the versions he was shown and numerically. Minimus is actually iron man like too in my opinion in that it's a bot/dude in a heavy weapon suit. I prefer the bots in powered up suits than having fundamental changes that look terrible in headmasters.

Prowl4 wrote:Sentinel in IDW was the Iron Man in so far as he was a bot that had a power up suit similar to Iron Man it even had a HUD. Now that was just IDW except for what was to happen next in Animated and not only was it talked about but the art of animated season 3 showed Sentinel Prime again in a powered up suit like Iron Man. So essentially two out of three animated versions were shown to have power up suits. That's a pretty definitive trait in my opinion.

Except that both the Apex Armor of IDW Sentinel and the Powermaster upgrade of Animated Sentinel were both concepts based directly on upgraded forms of Optimus Prime. Both the Apex Armor and the Powermaster armor were the Super Mode enhancements used for the G1 Powermaster Optimus Prime toy and (for the former only) its Commemorative Series reissue.

Animated season 4 would have even had Optimus be the one to get the Powermaster upgrade armor instead of Sentinel. And any actual artwork of Sentinel wearing the armor has all been unofficial fan art.

So basically, your "definitive" Sentinel Prime is one who uses a concept that originally belonged Optimus Prime's toys rather than being anything unique to Sentinel himself.

If there's anything that most depictions of Sentinel Prime have in common, across IDW, Animated, and DOTM, it's that they're all amoral jerks who'd do anything to get their way by taking advantage of anyone and everyone in the process while masking their goals behind the delusion of what they're doing being for the sake of Cybertron.

The only Sentinel Prime who doesn't appear to be so corrupt is Sentinel Zeta Prime, who instead was merely put in charge by corrupt authorities (the Quintessons) whom he had the decency to rebel against during the Age of Wrath.

Prowl4 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Prowl4 wrote:Changing a character from a non headmaster to a headmaster is a massive change fundamentally to the character. Updating vehicle modes etc is fine. You seem to be missing the point. I'm surprised at how people like and defend characters that have no right to be altered in such an incredibly drastic way. Maybe the vitriol only comes when your name is Michael bay lol.

Were you upset when 1988 made a Powermaster toy for the previously non-Powermaster character Optimus Prime, or made Classic Pretender toys for the previously non-Pretender characters Bumblebee, Jazz, Grimlock, and Starscream?

Wasn't alive then but think they're complete dirt yeah.

Even though those forms of theirs were supported by the concurrent fiction of the time?

Sabrblade wrote:Really logical stuff

Always nice to see Sabrblade provide a voice of logic and reason in an argument.

Just a question to the people arguing the fiction behind these toys. Unless a toy accompanies an actual TV show or game (which these Generations toys do not) then isnt the actual fiction relegated to the bio? Example, Blastoff being a jet was in his bio and that alone. This Sentinel Prime and these other headmasters are simply the toys in and of themselves with their bio being the fiction that suppots their exitence. No? Pretty much what I am asking is, why cant these toys just be toys and bought becuase they are cool toys? If you want accompanying fiction, theres the bio, and thats that.

Sabrblade wrote:

Prowl4 wrote:Sentinel in IDW was the Iron Man in so far as he was a bot that had a power up suit similar to Iron Man it even had a HUD. Now that was just IDW except for what was to happen next in Animated and not only was it talked about but the art of animated season 3 showed Sentinel Prime again in a powered up suit like Iron Man. So essentially two out of three animated versions were shown to have power up suits. That's a pretty definitive trait in my opinion.

Except that both the Apex Armor of IDW Sentinel and the Powermaster upgrade of Animated Sentinel were both concepts based directly on upgraded forms of Optimus Prime. Both the Apex Armor and the Powermaster armor were the Super Mode enhancements used for the G1 Powermaster Optimus Prime toy and (for the former only) its Commemorative Series reissue.

Animated season 4 would have even had Optimus be the one to get the Powermaster upgrade armor instead of Sentinel. And any actual artwork of Sentinel wearing the armor has all been unofficial fan art.

So basically, your "definitive" Sentinel Prime is one who uses a concept that originally belonged Optimus Prime's toys rather than being anything unique to Sentinel himself.

If there's anything that most depictions of Sentinel Prime have in common, across IDW, Animated, and DOTM, it's that they're all amoral jerks who'd do anything to get their way by taking advantage of anyone and everyone in the process while masking their goals behind the delusion of what they're doing being for the sake of Cybertron.

The only Sentinel Prime who doesn't appear to be so corrupt is Sentinel Zeta Prime, who instead was merely put in charge by corrupt authorities (the Quintessons) whom he had the decency to rebel against during the Age of Wrath.

Prowl4 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Prowl4 wrote:Changing a character from a non headmaster to a headmaster is a massive change fundamentally to the character. Updating vehicle modes etc is fine. You seem to be missing the point. I'm surprised at how people like and defend characters that have no right to be altered in such an incredibly drastic way. Maybe the vitriol only comes when your name is Michael bay lol.

Were you upset when 1988 made a Powermaster toy for the previously non-Powermaster character Optimus Prime, or made Classic Pretender toys for the previously non-Pretender characters Bumblebee, Jazz, Grimlock, and Starscream?

Wasn't alive then but think they're complete dirt yeah.

Even though those forms of theirs were supported by the concurrent fiction?

My definitive Sentinel Prime uses the concept originally showcased by powermaster prime in three iterations so yeah pretty definitive and linked to Sentinel, improving on the idea and implementing it better across the board in my opinion.

I like how you say unique, did you know Optimus Prime's voice is based on both John Wayne and the brother of Peter Cullen, so now is Optimus not unique? IDW,Animated and WFC have given Sentinel power suits to add something to him. Outside of a japanese show where he used it iirc powermaster Optimus Prime means little. So it's something I'd certainly attribute more to Sentinel seeing as how I've followed his g1, animated, idw and wfc appearances. You can argue the point all you want but the majority of Sentinels appearances has seen him with power suits.

william-james88 wrote:Just a question to the people arguing the fiction behind these toys. Unless a toy accompanies an actual TV show or game (which these Generations toys do not) then isnt the actual fiction relegated to the bio? Example, Blastoff being a jet was in his bio and that alone. This Sentinel Prime and these other headmasters are simply the toys in and of themselves with their bio being the fiction that suppots their exitence. No? Pretty much what I am asking is, why cant these toys just be toys and bought becuase they are cool toys? If you want accompanying fiction, theres the bio, and thats that.

Ditto. I buy the toys for three reasons (unless they're part of a combiner, then I'll get them anyway):
1. Does it look cool?
2. Does it have good articulation?
3. Is it actually good (looking at you Breakdown)?

If a toy meets these three criteria, then I buy it, and create my own fiction for it.

william-james88 wrote:Just a question to the people arguing the fiction behind these toys. Unless a toy accompanies an actual TV show or game (which these Generations toys do not) then isnt the actual fiction relegated to the bio? Example, Blastoff being a jet was in his bio and that alone. This Sentinel Prime and these other headmasters are simply the toys in and of themselves with their bio being the fiction that suppots their exitence. No? Pretty much what I am asking is, why cant these toys just be toys and bought becuase they are cool toys? If you want accompanying fiction, theres the bio, and thats that.

Hasbro said at their BotCon panel that the store of Titans Return would play out in the IDW comics. Nothing more on it, just that it would.

And for Japan's side of the world, Hayato Sakamoto (the man behind the Legends manga and Unite Warriors Offshot) announced at BotCon that the Legends manga would tell how all the originally non-Headmaster characters would all become Headmasters in that continuity.

So there will be other fiction for these toys besides the bios. Eventually, rather than immediately.

william-james88 wrote:Just a question to the people arguing the fiction behind these toys. Unless a toy accompanies an actual TV show or game (which these Generations toys do not) then isnt the actual fiction relegated to the bio? Example, Blastoff being a jet was in his bio and that alone. This Sentinel Prime and these other headmasters are simply the toys in and of themselves with their bio being the fiction that suppots their exitence. No? Pretty much what I am asking is, why cant these toys just be toys and bought becuase they are cool toys? If you want accompanying fiction, theres the bio, and thats that.

They follow the games for wfc and foc and most designs are seen in the official comics which are official fiction.

Prowl4 wrote:I like how you say unique, did you know Optimus Prime's voice is based on both John Wayne and the brother of Peter Cullen, so now is Optimus not unique?

On the contrary. John Wayne sounded like John Wayne, Larry Cullen sounded like Larry Cullen, but neither sounded like a combination of the two, as only Peter Cullen had been the one to create that combined voice. So yeah, that combined voice is unique to Optimus since its two source voices only contained one-half of the mixture.

Prowl4 wrote:IDW,Animated and WFC have given Sentinel power suits to add something to him.

Except Animated did not give Sentinel a power suit since season 4 was never made and is therefore presently not canon.

And where do you get that SZP had a power suit?

Prowl4 wrote:Outside of a japanese show where he used it iirc powermaster Optimus Prime means little.

No Japanese show had Optimus Prime as a Powermaster. Ginrai was a completely different person from Optimus and was a Godmaster, not a Powermaster.

The fiction from the time I'm referring to, for both PM Optimus and the Classic Pretenders, would be the Marvel Comics and the animated/voice-acted toy commercials:






Also, season 5 of the G1 cartoon:

Prowl4 wrote:

william-james88 wrote:Just a question to the people arguing the fiction behind these toys. Unless a toy accompanies an actual TV show or game (which these Generations toys do not) then isnt the actual fiction relegated to the bio? Example, Blastoff being a jet was in his bio and that alone. This Sentinel Prime and these other headmasters are simply the toys in and of themselves with their bio being the fiction that suppots their exitence. No? Pretty much what I am asking is, why cant these toys just be toys and bought becuase they are cool toys? If you want accompanying fiction, theres the bio, and thats that.

They follow the games for wfc and foc and most designs are seen in the official comics which are official fiction.

Firstly, I mentioned games. The WFC and FOC toys were in junction with the games. But the Genrations toys since then are very much their own thing and they are toys first. Hasbro doesnt make toys about the comics' fiction, they will make fiction about the toys. The toys are the primary source of branding here, not the comics. Also, just because toys look similar to another design does not make then that same version of the character.

Case in point: Brainstorm.

This is not IDW Brainstorm but he does look like that.



The designer even said he made him look like that, because he thought that looked good. But he's still not IDW brainstorm because in IDW, Fort Max is large but not a titan.

But he is in the fiction that this Brainstorm comes from, you can see his sword and his fingers in the back:


So there you have it, proof that the toys are their own thing and just because they look like comic versions doesnt mean they are.

Personally, I'd say it's kind of dual purpose - certain Generations figures; while not as large an amount as a few years ago are designed to be the representation of the IDW version of the character - take Rewind for example, who is designed after his IDW counterpart to the extent of having a cute little camera on his noggin. Buuuuut... that doesn't mean that this is specifically IDW. Taking the Rewind example full circle, it's a Rewind that looks exactly like his IDW counterpart and hence works in an IDW/Lost Light display, but is in fact a different G1 continuity Rewind who just happens to look like IDW Rewind.
That was probably a lot more long-winded than it needed to be.

ZeroWolf wrote:

Ironhidensh wrote:I actually really want PMOP, simply because the original one was the first Prime toy I ever got as a child. There is actually a really good life lesson that goes with that story, but I'll save it for another day. If it wasn't for that, I'd be skipping him based on my no repaint (unless that is how it was in original media) rule. Nostalgia over rules principle. I don't even think it's that great a retool, I still just see Ultra Magnus, but it's PMOP so......


Blaster and Sound wave are both a big hell no. Part is in protest of making them repaints again, and part us because I think the base mode option is retarded. There just isn't a single thing about either figure that says they are worth leader class prices to me.

Daft question but how would you feel if pmop came out before um? Or would that have been safe because of the repaint in fiction (well partly with white prime)

Like Sentinel and Astrotrain, when Ultra Magnus showed up, it would have been obvious who was the original design.

The kid in me says base modes are awesome which I think is the demographic they are aiming at. Oh and those that want to build club blaster and club sound wave for the little titanmasters to hang in. Of course every collector looks for something different in the toy

I didn't like base modes as a kid, either.

william-james88 wrote:

Prowl4 wrote:

william-james88 wrote:Just a question to the people arguing the fiction behind these toys. Unless a toy accompanies an actual TV show or game (which these Generations toys do not) then isnt the actual fiction relegated to the bio? Example, Blastoff being a jet was in his bio and that alone. This Sentinel Prime and these other headmasters are simply the toys in and of themselves with their bio being the fiction that suppots their exitence. No? Pretty much what I am asking is, why cant these toys just be toys and bought becuase they are cool toys? If you want accompanying fiction, theres the bio, and thats that.

They follow the games for wfc and foc and most designs are seen in the official comics which are official fiction.

Firstly, I mentioned games. The WFC and FOC toys were in junction with the games. But the Genrations toys since then are very much their own thing and they are toys first. Hasbro doesnt make toys about the comics' fiction, they will make fiction about the toys. The toys are the primary source of branding here, not the comics. Also, just because toys look similar to another design does not make then that same version of the character.

Case in point: Brainstorm.

This is not IDW Brainstorm but he does look like that.



The designer even said he made him look like that, because he thought that looked good. But he's still not IDW brainstorm because in IDW, Fort Max is large but not a titan.

But he is in the fiction that this Brainstorm comes from, you can see his sword and his fingers in the back:


So there you have it, proof that the toys are their own thing and just because they look like comic versions doesnt mean they are.

If it makes you happy, they can be from whatever fiction (except the obvious outlier ones) you want them to be in.

Sabrblade wrote:No Japanese show had Optimus Prime as a Powermaster. Ginrai was a completely different person from Optimus and was a Godmaster, not a Powermaster.

OBJECTION! Godmasters and Powermasters are the same thing, just given a different name in different countries. Also, Ginrai's transtector was meant to be for Convoy, so even though Ginrai used it, it super technically is still Optimus Prime's body. Just sayin'.

Kurona wrote:Personally, I'd say it's kind of dual purpose - certain Generations figures; while not as large an amount as a few years ago are designed to be the representation of the IDW version of the character - take Rewind for example, who is designed after his IDW counterpart to the extent of having a cute little camera on his noggin. Buuuuut... that doesn't mean that this is specifically IDW. Taking the Rewind example full circle, it's a Rewind that looks exactly like his IDW counterpart and hence works in an IDW/Lost Light display, but is in fact a different G1 continuity Rewind who just happens to look like IDW Rewind.
That was probably a lot more long-winded than it needed to be.

That was just perfect and exactly what I meant to say but in a better way. And it works since that rewind toy still has elements of being it's own thing since IDW rewing doesnt turn into the same alt modes.

Has it been clarified if the titan masters are supposed to be normal sized bots who take control of titan sized bodies (ala transtectors of the headmasters cartoon) or are the bots and cons going to forge an alliance with a newly discovered race of minicon-like bots who then combine with them?

Ironhidesh@ that's fine as I said we all look for different things in toys.

Also why does it matter about the fiction with regards to the toys? Imagination allows us to change these toys to who we want them to be, don't like galvatron as a headmaster? Fine, it can be megatron who pilots a huge lifeless body that looks like galvatron.

HeroWolf wrote: Imagination allows us to change these toys to who we want them to be

Amen and HALLELUJAH!

ZeroWolf wrote:Has it been clarified if the titan masters are supposed to be normal sized bots who take control of titan sized bodies (ala transtectors of the headmasters cartoon) or are the bots and cons going to forge an alliance with a newly discovered race of minicon-like bots who then combine with them?

Official publicity materials, like the commercial playing at Botcon, seem to have it that the titans are, well, Titan-sized, but they go on to say that the titan masters are some of the smallest transformers. Make of it what you will.

ZeroWolf wrote:Has it been clarified if the titan masters are supposed to be normal sized bots who take control of titan sized bodies (ala transtectors of the headmasters cartoon) or are the bots and cons going to forge an alliance with a newly discovered race of minicon-like bots who then combine with them?

Right now the idea that Astrotrain is a headmaster is actually helping me accept his size-changing, so I'm sort of making it part of my headcanon - to elaborate, I'm starting to see Astrotrain's robot mode as the Titan Master that pilots him in Shuttle mode. That allows for me the idea that a ton of robots can somehow go inside him, because it's not actually Astrotrain. He just has the power to somehow generate a massive version of his alt mode and pilot it :p

@cobotron thanks man once in a while I do say something worthwhile

@ThatBot from what you've said it sounds like they're on about the titan masters being the smallest toys. I'm personally hoping for the transtector theory myself, but if that's not the official one then it's just the one ill be using.

@Kurona not a bad idea there. If the idea that they are titan sized bodies is true then it will be a lot more than a few decepticons that astrotrain could hold.