The Energon Pub

[ZeroWolf]

I'd argue that these would not be the same figures if sold at the voyager price point. What defines price point these days is the amount of plastic used and the excess plastic between voyager and Leader wasn't all weapons and add on bits. The plastic would have come out of their main bodies as well.

Another factor is how many slots the designers have to use, and thats without facing the elephant in the room, scale. There is very few old leader Class sized bots in the toon, so in order to ensure a variety of characters used, those leader slots had to be used creatively. We saw this in Galaxy Upgrade Prime, a retool of Ultra Magnus, serving as his New IDW body while being a cheaper alternative to those who can't afford the superb original.

In short, we need to move away from thinking price points are about size. It's plastic and number of components that define it now.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

Think about it this way: Would you call the original Optimus and Megatron toys ripoffs for the parts not combining into a solitary huge robot mode? Would you call G1 Ultra Magnus, Powermaster Optimus Prime, or the RiD-Cybertron Optimus Primes ripoffs for the armor-enlarged robot modes not being the defaults?

And how is what we have now any different?

And plastic mass has been the overriding component in price points ever since HasTak started doing new molds for Transformers.

[Ironhidensh]

I'd argue that these would not be the same figures if sold at the voyager price point. What defines price point these days is the amount of plastic used and the excess plastic between voyager and Leader wasn't all weapons and add on bits. The plastic would have come out of their main bodies as well.

Another factor is how many slots the designers have to use, and thats without facing the elephant in the room, scale. There is very few old leader Class sized bots in the toon, so in order to ensure a variety of characters used, those leader slots had to be used creatively. We saw this in Galaxy Upgrade Prime, a retool of Ultra Magnus, serving as his New IDW body while being a cheaper alternative to those who can't afford the superb original.

In short, we need to move away from thinking price points are about size. It's plastic and number of components that define it now.

Yeah, I understand that. Irrelevant to me, not to sound like a jackass. Let me explain. It all comes down to what a product is worth to you. These toys, modern business factors aside, are not worth the money. While prices have gone up, prices and sizes have not. I always go back to the Unicron Trilogy toys, and not for the size, for the quality.

I have two boys, 6 & 7. I have given them a lot of my figures over the years, form pretty much all lines and eras. Nothing, and I mean nothing, have held up as well under a child’s play (what these things are ultimately for) than the UT figures. Very little breakage on any of the figures. All the others? Broken, in some way, almost to the figure. Not even the Rescuebot toys have held up as well. The original classics line did fairly well, also. Since then, however, there has been a steady drop in the quality along with the steady rise in prices. These toys are simply not worth the asking price these days.

Personally, if they have to add nonsense kibble that the figure can easily and happily do without, then I say leader class needs to go the way if the dodo. If rising costs have placed that much limitation on Hastak, it’s time to cut losses.


If you are willing and happy to pay the asking price, then hey, more power to you. Don’t you dare tell me I should shut up and open my wallet with a smile and spread cheeks (looking at you, Zelda).

[ZeroWolf]

The quality issue is more to do with the business of capitalism, I'm afraid (don't get me wrong, you get what you feel is worth it, only way you'll be happy with what you get. No point in getting anything that doesn't make you, or your children, happy). On the Hasbro side, they have a mandate to provide ever greater returns to their investors (the true power behind the throne), this means always trying to increase profit margins by setting prices they know we'll pay and trying to pay the lowest they can amidst rising prices for the raw materials.

End result? No one truly wins (apart from the investors).

[Rodimus Prime]

I'd argue that these would not be the same figures if sold at the voyager price point. What defines price point these days is the amount of plastic used and the excess plastic between voyager and Leader wasn't all weapons and add on bits. The plastic would have come out of their main bodies as well.

I have a hard time seeing that. Prime, Magnus and Shockwave are all fairly light. Shockwave even lighter than the other 2. If more plastic is taken out, you'd be hovering on large-deluxe level, such as Ironhide/Crosshairs.

In short, we need to move away from thinking price points are about size. It's plastic and number of components that define it now.

I will argue that if we took away the tender from Astrotrain, he'd still be Astrotrain. The tender is unnecessary, other than making him look better in train mode and bulking him up somewhat in robot mode (and he's still smaller than TR Astrotrain!). Yes, it's the launch pad in shuttle mode, but IMO it looks like crap and if I had to choose between just Astrotrain for $30 or Astrotrain+tender for $50, guess what? Also, I understand that Shockwave can't be held in the same regard, because his extra stuff is actually needed for the alt mode, even though he doesn't look much better with it. I do admit the hover board/platform is neat, but again, not worth the extra $20.

[Rodimus Prime]

I apologize for breaking the no-double-post rule, but my phone makes it difficult to combine posts.

Think about it this way: Would you call the original Optimus and Megatron toys ripoffs for the parts not combining into a solitary huge robot mode?

Apples and oranges. Prime's trailer and Megatron's stock and silencer were parts of their respective alt modes as they were portrayed on screen. As a kid back in the 80s, I asked for Optimus Prime, I wanted the trailer as well. With Megatron I could have done without the stock and silencer, but that was my personal preference. Point is, they came with them because they were parts of them. Astrotrain's tender is completely unnecessary for the function of the figure when it comes to screen accuracy. That's the difference.

Would you call G1 Ultra Magnus, Powermaster Optimus Prime, or the RiD-Cybertron Optimus Primes ripoffs for the armor-enlarged robot modes not being the defaults?

But they were the defaults. How many times did you see Magnus on screen without his trailer? Hell, until DW, we didn't even think of him as a white Prime in a suit of armor. In G1, Magnus was the white cab and trailer. Same with PM Prime in the comics, though the Masterforce version took a different road. Still, by the end of the series, he was always Super Ginrai. As for the Car Robots and Unicron Trilogy iterations, I think that's a matter of perception. They can't be all looked at the same way. For me, Fire Convoy was always the combined mode, because in truck mode the smaller robot was only the front half of the truck, and he couldn't function without the armor component in vehicle mode. Armada Prime was the smaller robot, but he utilized the trailer often enough so that including it in his toy was not a problem. Same with both Energon and Cybertron Prime. Astrotrain, however, has never used a tender.

[SpikeyTigertron]

I feel like we need to get the scales out again. As others have said, "ultimately get what *you* feel is worth it to you". But... stop beating the dead horse over "leader" class is VoYaGeRs… In all honesty if we're crying about complexity and weight... the only *TITAN* class I've felt good about was Devastator (Takara's version with elbows) and Predaking. All the city bots have felt hallow and cheap.

But back to Earthrise, ultimately they're trying to scale everything. Yes Cliffjumper is smaller, but doesn't appear to be any less complex than others in his class. They gave us a badass bazooka to help "bulk" up his budget.

As far as Astrotrain, maybe you're not into the sub-genre/gimmick of base building that has been around since Titan's Return... but that tender plays directly into that gimmick. Also all of his weapons are nicely detailed and fairly chunky, though I do think his combined rifle/cannon looks a bit janky.


As far as Titan's Return Astrotrain being *bigger* maybe? But he's a shadow of the toy that the Earthrise/Seige version is; both in weight and complexity. And this is coming from a guy who spent *extra* to get the Takara version... I'd still rank the new Astrotrain as superior. But guess what... you can use the older version as as bullet train for your base building, since most of those vehicle modes were made to roughly the same scale (if you look at all the greebled windowes, doors, etc).

I haven't had a chance to hook up the tender to Omega Supreme, but I think i'll be interesting. ALso one thing that the tender provides for base building is the fact that those platforms pivot. So far all the other connection points that we've seen are static, so food for though there.


Ultimately I think a lot of you guys that are so focused on the robot's size are losing the forest for the tree. There's a *lot* going on with these figures.

[SpikeyTigertron]

I have two boys, 6 & 7. I have given them a lot of my figures over the years, form pretty much all lines and eras. Nothing, and I mean nothing, have held up as well under a child’s play (what these things are ultimately for) than the UT figures. Very little breakage on any of the figures. All the others? Broken, in some way, almost to the figure. Not even the Rescuebot toys have held up as well. The original classics line did fairly well, also. Since then, however, there has been a steady drop in the quality along with the steady rise in prices. These toys are simply not worth the asking price these days.

that's mostly because those toys were bricks like the G1 era... nigh impossible to break. Now, there's something to be said for that, but also the economy (and manufacturing/production prices) has moved on.

That's not a knock against those toys or that trilogy, but trying to hold a candle for those, well they're not coming back. I'd argue that the Beast War toys (minus the vac-chrome form transmetal) have held up better *as* conventional action figures. But I'd also argue they're easier to break that UT toys.

[Rodimus Prime]

I get what you're saying. The extra money is also for the extra play value because of the multi-faceted functionality of the extra parts. That's fine and well if that's what you look for in the toy you're buying. But again, it's all a matter of what's the toy worth to each of us. And to me, even with the extra functions such as the launch pad or being able to be attached to another base mode, it's not worth it. I'd rather have just Astrotrain for $30. But point taken.

And I agree that TR Astrotrain is inferior looks-wise, especially in his alt modes, but he is still a bigger figure (no *maybe* about it) and to me has more value for the money.

[SpikeyTigertron]

I just figure it's ultimately one of those, "agree to disagree things". Neither side is wrong, and ultimately neither side effects the other. Luckily there do seem to often be sales were those looking to pay less, can get more bang for their buck. If there is one thing I'm a little steamed about from a collecting point of view... is that we have a clash of aesthetics with the Siege figures and now the Earthrise figures mixing cybertron modes with earth modes. Ultimately, I think that's why I'm just going to wait on the coneheads (they hopefully have lined up) instead of doing the O.G. trio *again*.

Also really don't know what to think about that Earthrise Megatron… For those that do have Earthrise Prime, how different is he from Bumblebee Movie prime (cybertron Prime?). There seemed to be a lot of shared transformation, but he doesn't strike mas large as the Studio Series figure? Thoughts? I mostly wanted ER Prime for the trailer, but I do have to admit it feels like a bit of let down, kind of like the studio series weapon ring trailer.

So I take that back... I can see the argument for "why leader prices" with Studio Series leader prime lol. that trailer was a bit of let down, but I do have to say he looked better combined with Jetfire than the solo release.

Sorry this kind of rambled all over the place [hops off soapbox].

[ZeroWolf]

No need to say sorry Spikey, you made a lot of good points

[Rodimus Prime]

ER Prime is simpler than SS Bee Prime. The transformation isn't as involved, and SS Prime is heftier, and looks bulkier in truck mode, even though their dimensions are pretty much the same. I don't care for SS Bee Prime that much, but he's definitely the better value for the money.

And if you want just the trailer from ER Prime, PM me. I have 1 I don't want, even though it's *perfect* for TFP deluxe Prime.

And I never said Astrotrain absolutely shouldn't come with the tender, I just wish that those of us who don't want it would have an option to get Astrotrain by himself. But I guess that's what eBay is for...

[SpikeyTigertron]

ER Prime is simpler than SS Bee Prime. The transformation isn't as involved, and SS Prime is heftier, and looks bulkier in truck mode, even though their dimensions are pretty much the same. I don't care for SS Bee Prime that much, but he's definitely the better value for the money.

And if you want just the trailer from ER Prime, PM me. I have 1 I don't want, even though it's *perfect* for TFP deluxe Prime.

And I never said Astrotrain absolutely shouldn't come with the tender, I just wish that those of us who don't want it would have an option to get Astrotrain by himself. But I guess that's what eBay is for...

Solid point about Astrotrain, same could be said for Shockwave, and the Smaller/inner Prime for Galaxy Force (that was my main selling point- not the combined mode oddly enough).

[Rodimus Prime]

ER Prime is simpler than SS Bee Prime. The transformation isn't as involved, and SS Prime is heftier, and looks bulkier in truck mode, even though their dimensions are pretty much the same. I don't care for SS Bee Prime that much, but he's definitely the better value for the money.

And if you want just the trailer from ER Prime, PM me. I have 1 I don't want, even though it's *perfect* for TFP deluxe Prime.

And I never said Astrotrain absolutely shouldn't come with the tender, I just wish that those of us who don't want it would have an option to get Astrotrain by himself. But I guess that's what eBay is for...

Solid point about Astrotrain, same could be said for Shockwave, and the Smaller/inner Prime for Galaxy Force (that was my main selling point- not the combined mode oddly enough).

Exactly. I prefer both those figures without the extra stuff, even though Siege Galaxy Prime looks good combined. But in his case he was an homage as well as a comic tie-in, so the extra stuff was necessary.

Anyway, back to Earthrise, so far the only "leaders" we know of are Astrotrain, Prime and Doubledealer, correct? If so, that leaves 1 or 2 more leader slots to be filled before ER is through.

[ZeroWolf]

Looking at Siege we got UM, Shockwave and then Galaxy Prime (a retool of UM) then Astrotrain as part of the unplanned extra wave (I prefer the theory that he was always meant for Earthrise, just borrowed for Siege). So I would reckon at least one of those is destined for a retool for retail. My money is on Doubledealer... But as who?

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

TR Astrotrain is taller, but loses out on value big-time with that trainwreck of a locomotive mode. And he's no doubt got less mass than the WFC figure's core robot.
Also, if the WFC figure had been a Voyager... he would no doubt have been diminished enough (either on accessories or in some other regard) that you'd end up spending the extra $20 on a 3P add-on kit and thus effectively be paying $50 for him anyway.

I apologize for breaking the no-double-post rule, but my phone makes it difficult to combine posts.

Think about it this way: Would you call the original Optimus and Megatron toys ripoffs for the parts not combining into a solitary huge robot mode?

Apples and oranges. Prime's trailer and Megatron's stock and silencer were parts of their respective alt modes as they were portrayed on screen. As a kid back in the 80s, I asked for Optimus Prime, I wanted the trailer as well. With Megatron I could have done without the stock and silencer, but that was my personal preference. Point is, they came with them because they were parts of them. Astrotrain's tender is completely unnecessary for the function of the figure when it comes to screen accuracy. That's the difference.

1. That remark wasn't addressed at you, or specifically about Astrotrain. ZeroWolf's posts got me off the specific subject of Astrotrain and thinking more about what people have said about WFC Leaders in general. So that post was commenting on the general principle of Leaders being done as smaller core robots accessorized by the remaining mass, without that mass necessarily turning them into a bigger robot.
2. Screen accuracy is irrelevant. The point is that both of those toys were essentially Leader-class figures mass-wise and were priced as such, but the majority of their mass did not go into making one big robot (which is something that people have been whinging about wrt SIEGE Leaders). That's how the Diaclone Battle Convoy and the Micro Change P38 Gun Robo U.N.C.L.E. were deigned. Do you think designing Leader-class toys that way is a ripoff?
3. With regard to SIEGE/ER Astrotrain specifically, no the tender is not necessary for screen accuracy. But it's still part of the toy's mass (and thus, part of the price) and play value, as are the guns.

Would you call G1 Ultra Magnus, Powermaster Optimus Prime, or the RiD-Cybertron Optimus Primes ripoffs for the armor-enlarged robot modes not being the defaults?

But they were the defaults.

Regardless of whether the fiction (which was designed after the toys, not the other way around!) actually used the cab robot much or at all, it was still a part of the toy rather than the toy going right from the vehicle mode to the super robot with no interim stage. Do you consider that sort of design a ripoff?

Astrotrain, however, has never used a tender.

No, but he should have. Without it, his locomotive mode looks about as complete as RiD and Cybertron Optimus do without the rest of their altmodes.

[Sentinel_Primal]

Looking at Siege we got UM, Shockwave and then Galaxy Prime (a retool of UM) then Astrotrain as part of the unplanned extra wave (I prefer the theory that he was always meant for Earthrise, just borrowed for Siege). So I would reckon at least one of those is destined for a retool for retail. My money is on Doubledealer... But as who?

Well, the two most popular theories are Stalker and CD Red Alert, and I have the personal hope of getting a Machine Wars Soundwave in Selects. In terms of most likely of a retail release, I'd say Stalker with the bird mode being retooled a bit to be a flying brick jet mode. Or we could end up with a leader being pulled forward from Part 3, meaning all bets might be off. Or maybe some combination of both, with "the Retool" and "Part 3" making up the last wave

[blackeyedprime]

The plastic vs size argument is kinda irrelevant when others that don't have the kind of money or sales outlets hasbro does can do the same figure, but bigger, maybe even with die cast, electronics or other improvements for cheaper.

I'm not even sure if I'd pick up a cheaper oversize astrotrain as it won't connect to other bases and shuttle/train mode with out modifications is still going to be a bit of a mess so tr astrotrain still wins it for me.

[ZeroWolf]

Other companies also don't have to worry about all the things Hasbro does 3p, for instance, don't have to worry about toy laws or drop tests. And normally, more work goes into a transforming toy then something retail competitors would put out at the same price point.

Don't see the point arguing Tr Astro vs Siege/Earthrise Astro as both can fulfil different needs in a collection. Namely, Tr Astro works as a pre-Earth Astro (indeed as he is based on the sketches from IDW Storm bringer) and Siege/Earthrise is the G1 toon Astro.

[Evil Eye]

I honestly don't mind the "Voyager with extra accessories as a Leader" thing, mainly because I can't think of any characters who were actually Leader-sized in the cartoon (can't speak for the G1 comics as I haven't read much). The "super mode" gimmick is a cool one, and if Hasbro has to keep Leader class around I'd rather we got a Voyager with extra cool goodies than one very large and potentially subpar robot who isn't really in scale with anything anyway.

[aronjlove]

As someone who is relatively new to the collecting and bought both leader-class Rodimus Prime and Rodimus Unicronus from PotP, that leader-class was trash. Big out of scale figures with limited articulation so it became nothing but a statue on the shelf. I thought they would be cool to make some scenes or even a stop motion animation from but nope. Even the smaller un-evolved figure wasn't as posable as the Titan's Return Hot Rod. I happily pay full price for current leaders class figures because they can actually do stuff, like hold a pose or look good in motion. And I keep hearing about size or weight but Earthrise Prime is the most solid figure I have ever held in my hands. I showed him off to coworkers and the first thing they all said was how heavy he is. We are getting almost-MP level engineering and complexity with mass-market prices so I'm definitely pleased with all of my Siege and Earthrise purchases.

[Sentinel_Primal]

As someone who is relatively new to the collecting and bought both leader-class Rodimus Prime and Rodimus Unicronus from PotP, that leader-class was trash. Big out of scale figures with limited articulation so it became nothing but a statue on the shelf. I thought they would be cool to make some scenes or even a stop motion animation from but nope. Even the smaller un-evolved figure wasn't as posable as the Titan's Return Hot Rod. I happily pay full price for current leaders class figures because they can actually do stuff, like hold a pose or look good in motion. And I keep hearing about size or weight but Earthrise Prime is the most solid figure I have ever held in my hands. I showed him off to coworkers and the first thing they all said was how heavy he is. We are getting almost-MP level engineering and complexity with mass-market prices so I'm definitely pleased with all of my Siege and Earthrise purchases.

To be fair, the articulation was also limited during that point of collecting. Very few figures had wrist swivels, fewer had ankle pivots, and waist swivels were practically non-existant unless it was there for transformation. Now we're getting all the swivels we want on many figures, with the only notable example of a WFC figure lacking articulation is Apeface because of his lack of waist and wrists

[M. Spector]

I think the bottom line people are forgetting is that for the past 10 plus years leader class figures have had cool gimmicks, be it a super mode, combining or turning into a battle station/base. CW is the only outlier to this and even then you could argue the gimmick there was having none and just being random stand alone releases of popular wanted characters.
As some one who paid full price for both Magnus and Shockwave, Mags defiantly was easier to justify I could have waited for a sale on the other but was impatient to own such a beautiful classic looking Shockwave. The slate of leaders in Earthrise so far all look really good and seem to focus a bit less on the extra accessories and if they all continue to look appealing as more info/pics come out i will happily toss my cash towards them

[blackeyedprime]

Plenty of leader class figures that haven't been worth their price tag (tr soundwave/blaster etc) earthrise isn't that different but when buying something at discount and still feeling overcharged ain't a good thing. Ill be very interested in oversized deluxe base guys or if hasbro can churn out more like the quintesson voyager and a leader class base or two.

[Nemesis Primal]

Looking at Siege we got UM, Shockwave and then Galaxy Prime (a retool of UM) then Astrotrain as part of the unplanned extra wave (I prefer the theory that he was always meant for Earthrise, just borrowed for Siege). So I would reckon at least one of those is destined for a retool for retail. My money is on Doubledealer... But as who?

Well, the two most popular theories are Stalker and CD Red Alert, and I have the personal hope of getting a Machine Wars Soundwave in Selects. In terms of most likely of a retail release, I'd say Stalker with the bird mode being retooled a bit to be a flying brick jet mode. Or we could end up with a leader being pulled forward from Part 3, meaning all bets might be off. Or maybe some combination of both, with "the Retool" and "Part 3" making up the last wave

There was also a listing found for an "Alternate Universe" Optimus Prime on Amazon over on a different thread, but I think it's price lined up more with a Voyager with Battlemasters than another Leader figure.