Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

[-Kanrabat-]

HAMMER TIME!

Now that's awesome and OVERKILL. I like that!

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

Reiterate statement that the tender [i]is[i] necessary, because it makes Astrotrain's locomotive mode complete finally. After 34 years of it being the engine equivalent of these:



That hammer looks awesome. And I'll bet you it'll show up in the Legends manga soon

[bacem]

That hammer looks awesome. And I'll bet you it'll show up in the Legends manga soon

When it does, just remember you saw it here first.

[Sabrblade]

That hammer looks awesome. And I'll bet you it'll show up in the Legends manga soon

The Legends manga died with the epliogue to the Big Powered set.

[Rodimus Prime]

Reiterate statement that the tender [i]is[i] necessary, because it makes Astrotrain's locomotive mode complete finally. After 34 years of it being the engine equivalent of these:

Did he have it in the cartoon or the animated movie?

Your comparison to Fire Convoy is inaccurate, since Fire Convoy was depicted with the back end of the truck in the cartoon. Unlike Astrotrain.

[Jelze Bunnycat]

Reiterate statement that the tender [i]is[i] necessary, because it makes Astrotrain's locomotive mode complete finally. After 34 years of it being the engine equivalent of these:

Did he have it in the cartoon or the animated movie?

Your comparison to Fire Convoy is inaccurate, since Fire Convoy was depicted with the back end of the truck in the cartoon. Unlike Astrotrain.

Fire Convoy does look incomplete without the back half, though he did disconnect from it as part of an impromptu ram attack once in the cartoon.

And Zelda, there are steam locomotives without tenders around, instead carrying all fuel and water on board; they're referred to as Tank Engines.

*hears the old Thomas tune*

Anyway, those are usually limited to shorter lines or a rail yard that don't require much fuel and water.

[Sabrblade]

And Zelda, there are steam locomotives without tenders around, instead carrying all fuel and water on board; they're referred to as Tank Engines.

*hears the old Thomas tune*

Anyway, those are usually limited to shorter lines or a rail yard that don't require much fuel and water.

The thing is, Astrotrain isn't a tank engine. His G1 design is based on a JNR Class D51 steam locomotive, which is a tender engine. Meaning his design was always missing a vital component back when the original 1985 mold was produced.

[Jelze Bunnycat]

And Zelda, there are steam locomotives without tenders around, instead carrying all fuel and water on board; they're referred to as Tank Engines.

*hears the old Thomas tune*

Anyway, those are usually limited to shorter lines or a rail yard that don't require much fuel and water.

The thing is, Astrotrain isn't a tank engine. His G1 design is based on a JNR Class D51 steam locomotive, which is a tender engine. Meaning his design was always missing a vital component back when the original 1985 mold was produced.

Then the Micromaster D-Go is guilty of that too.

[Sabrblade]

And Zelda, there are steam locomotives without tenders around, instead carrying all fuel and water on board; they're referred to as Tank Engines.

*hears the old Thomas tune*

Anyway, those are usually limited to shorter lines or a rail yard that don't require much fuel and water.

The thing is, Astrotrain isn't a tank engine. His G1 design is based on a JNR Class D51 steam locomotive, which is a tender engine. Meaning his design was always missing a vital component back when the original 1985 mold was produced.

Then the Micromaster D-Go is guilty of that too.

And GoBots Loco.

[King Kuuga]

The coal car is still a separate car from engine. As an alien robot, Astrotrain was presumably capable of self-propulsion and would only have adopted a coal car if someone at the station hooked one up to him.

[Sabrblade]

The coal car is still a separate car from engine. As an alien robot, Astrotrain was presumably capable of self-propulsion and would only have adopted a coal car if someone at the station hooked one up to him.

Half a train still makes for a poor disguise.

[ZeroWolf]

The coal car is still a separate car from engine. As an alien robot, Astrotrain was presumably capable of self-propulsion and would only have adopted a coal car if someone at the station hooked one up to him.

Half a train still makes for a poor disguise.

Indeed, though I wonder how Takara would have handled the tender if they'd included it on the original toy? Would it have been completely fixed to him? (think cw Ultra Magnus where you can't disconnect the cab) or would it have become a fold out gun platform?

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

Reiterate statement that the tender is necessary, because it makes Astrotrain's locomotive mode complete finally. After 34 years of it being the engine equivalent of these:
-Images snipped-

Did he have it in the cartoon or the animated movie?

No, because the toy didn't include one and the animation was too cheap and too toy-bound to correct that. But whether it was in the cartoon or not is, in this case, irrelevant.

Your comparison to Fire Convoy is inaccurate, since Fire Convoy was depicted with the back end of the truck in the cartoon. Unlike Astrotrain.

No, it isn't. That doesn't. Slagging. Matter.
Because depicted with a tender or not, Astrotrain's locomotive mode is just as blatantly incomplete without one as RiD and Cybertron Optimus Prime's truck modes are without the back half. Or as incomplete as G1 Optimus Prime's would be if you removed his fuel tanks.
Steam locomotives need a source of fuel and water - no ifs, ands, or buts. And for Astrotrain's loco mode, that would obviously be a tender because there's no sign of a bunker or water tank anywhere on the main body. Without that tender, he's only a partial locomotive. No two ways about it.

The coal car is still a separate car from engine. As an alien robot, Astrotrain was presumably capable of self-propulsion and would only have adopted a coal car if someone at the station hooked one up to him.

Half a train still makes for a poor disguise.

EXACTLY. The tender - which in almost all cases carries not only the fuel but also the water, so don't just call it a "coal car," Kuuga - is technically separate, but it's essential.
So going without it makes for a poor, incomplete disguise. Especially when its absence exposes the rocket bells on the back of the cab. With no tender his loco mode is only a couple rungs more disguised than this:

...Well, maybe not quite that bad, but still pretty blatant.

Indeed, though I wonder how Takara would have handled the tender if they'd included it on the original toy? Would it have been completely fixed to him? (think cw Ultra Magnus where you can't disconnect the cab) or would it have become a fold out gun platform?

I think it would have detached and either become a launch pad or gun platform. In fact, I'm pretty sure the designer actually originally planned on a detachable tender. Because two of the G1 toy's shuttle engines are simple pegs rather than proper engine bells. Pegs that have no apparent function.

[Emerje]

The coal car is still a separate car from engine. As an alien robot, Astrotrain was presumably capable of self-propulsion and would only have adopted a coal car if someone at the station hooked one up to him.

Half a train still makes for a poor disguise.

Only if you really, really know your trains. Most people wouldn't even notice, a train is a train.

I'd be much more alarmed seeing this thing on the road.


Emerje

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

The coal car is still a separate car from engine. As an alien robot, Astrotrain was presumably capable of self-propulsion and would only have adopted a coal car if someone at the station hooked one up to him.

Half a train still makes for a poor disguise.

Only if you really, really know your trains. Most people wouldn't even notice, a train is a train.
Emerje

Knowing a steam engine needs fuel and water and a way to carry them is ENTRY-LEVEL train knowledge. And see also the part about the exposed shuttle engines.

[Emerje]

The coal car is still a separate car from engine. As an alien robot, Astrotrain was presumably capable of self-propulsion and would only have adopted a coal car if someone at the station hooked one up to him.

Half a train still makes for a poor disguise.

Only if you really, really know your trains. Most people wouldn't even notice, a train is a train.
Emerje

Knowing a steam engine needs fuel and water and a way to carry them is ENTRY-LEVEL train knowledge. And see also the part about the exposed shuttle engines.

I would wager most of the world, including many people on this forum, aren't even at that level when it comes to trains. People drive cars all day without a clue how to change the wipers, some can't even pump their own gas.

Emerje

[Rodimus Prime]

Reiterate statement that the tender is necessary, because it makes Astrotrain's locomotive mode complete finally. After 34 years of it being the engine equivalent of these:
-Images snipped-

Did he have it in the cartoon or the animated movie?

No, because the toy didn't include one and the animation was too cheap and too toy-bound to correct that. But whether it was in the cartoon or not is, in this case, irrelevant.

Your comparison to Fire Convoy is inaccurate, since Fire Convoy was depicted with the back end of the truck in the cartoon. Unlike Astrotrain.

No, it isn't. That doesn't. Slagging. Matter.
Because depicted with a tender or not, Astrotrain's locomotive mode is just as blatantly incomplete without one as RiD and Cybertron Optimus Prime's truck modes are without the back half. Or as incomplete as G1 Optimus Prime's would be if you removed his fuel tanks.

Yet you still miss the point, that being cartoon and/or toy accuracy. Astrotrain did not have a tender in the cartoon or with his G1 figure release. Whether this is accurate to real life is irrelevant. If the WFC toy were to be accurate to its source material, it would have to be without a tender. Therefore my original statement stands. The tender is unnecessary.

And still your comparison to Fire Convoy or even G1 Prime's fuel tanks is also inaccurate. Fire Convoy's back half and Prime's tanks were in their respective cartoons and on their respective original toys. Astrotrain's tender was not.

[Sabrblade]

And still your comparison to Fire Convoy or even G1 Prime's fuel tanks is also inaccurate. Fire Convoy's back half and Prime's tanks were in their respective cartoons and on their respective original toys. Astrotrain's tender was not.

And his point is that the original toy and cartoon should have had the tender because, to him, both look wrong without it.

[Rodimus Prime]

And still your comparison to Fire Convoy or even G1 Prime's fuel tanks is also inaccurate. Fire Convoy's back half and Prime's tanks were in their respective cartoons and on their respective original toys. Astrotrain's tender was not.

And his point is that the original toy and cartoon should have had the tender because, to him, both look wrong without it.

I understand that. But that's his opinion. I'm stating facts.

[-Kanrabat-]

The coal car is still a separate car from engine. As an alien robot, Astrotrain was presumably capable of self-propulsion and would only have adopted a coal car if someone at the station hooked one up to him.

Half a train still makes for a poor disguise.

Only if you really, really know your trains. Most people wouldn't even notice, a train is a train.
Emerje

Knowing a steam engine needs fuel and water and a way to carry them is ENTRY-LEVEL train knowledge. And see also the part about the exposed shuttle engines.

Bullshizz.
No one give a flying fok about trains. The average joe will just groan when a train is crossing the road and the guy must wait for the thing to finally pass and the gates to reopen so that he can finally go on his way.

Also, just pointing out that Astrotrain never cared to pass as a "real" train. When the locomotive have jet engine and is the size of a massive cruise ship to carry an entire army of giant freaking bots inside, you know Astrotrain went for STYLE rather than "disguise".
Case in point, the Siege toy is a cybertronian TANK in "old locomotive" aestetics.
And know what? That's absolutely fine.

[Sabrblade]

To be fair, a tender would help to hide those big honking shuttle thrusters in train mode. The Siege/Earthrise toy's tender hides them quite nicely.

[Gauntlet101010]

This has become about Siege Astrotrain again?

I could appreciate the tender hiding the giant rockets in the back of the train more if the train mode itself was done better.

As it stands, though, the tender gets put aside for two out of the three modes. And it isn't as integral to the vehicle mode's design as Prime's trailer was, to me anyway. I'm a G1 cartoon fan, not a train fan.

[Nemesis Destron]

I don't see Shockwave in Walmart's as much. But why the hell doesn't Target mark that figure down already? That or ship out to discount stores cuz he definitely has had his time shelf warming!

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

The coal car is still a separate car from engine. As an alien robot, Astrotrain was presumably capable of self-propulsion and would only have adopted a coal car if someone at the station hooked one up to him.

Half a train still makes for a poor disguise.

Only if you really, really know your trains. Most people wouldn't even notice, a train is a train.
Emerje

Knowing a steam engine needs fuel and water and a way to carry them is ENTRY-LEVEL train knowledge. And see also the part about the exposed shuttle engines.

I would wager most of the world, including many people on this forum, aren't even at that level when it comes to trains. People drive cars all day without a clue how to change the wipers, some can't even pump their own gas.

Emerje

But they still know that the car is supposed to have a gas tank, don't they?

I contend that to anyone who knows even a little about steam engines, who has paid the slightest bit of attention to them in better toy form, or in model form, or in pictures in books, or in real life if they've had the pleasure... Astrotrain as depicted by his G1 toy - and, correspondingly, the cartoon - looks blatantly incomplete. He looks like one of those cheapo dollar store locomotive toys that's only the main body. Even back when I was 3 and only understood a little about trains, I knew those were incomplete because being into trains - as many kids are - I had seen steam engines as they are supposed to be.

Yet you still miss the point, that being cartoon and/or toy accuracy. Astrotrain did not have a tender in the cartoon or with his G1 figure release. Whether this is accurate to real life is irrelevant.

From my perspective it's relevant because it makes the G1 toy and cartoon depictions faulty and incomplete; the component they omitted is that important to the real thing. It can't go anywhere under its own power without that part, nor can it hook up to train cars.

On a tangent, I also don't think cartoon accuracy should come at a figure's expense. Primus knows SIEGE Astrotrain suffers from that as it is, considering what having the cartoon chest instead of the G1 toy's shuttle fin chestplate did to his shuttle mode.

And still your comparison to Fire Convoy or even G1 Prime's fuel tanks is also inaccurate. Fire Convoy's back half and Prime's tanks were in their respective cartoons and on their respective original toys. Astrotrain's tender was not.

It is not inaccurate. Because what I am saying is that in the cartoon or not, part of the G1 toy or not, the tender is as essential to the thing he's trying to be, as the back half of RiD Prime's fire truck mode is to that fire truck mode. That much is a fact.
And I say that that essentiality to the basis makes the tender a necessary feature of the toy. That part, is an opinion. I can admit that. A very strong opinion in my case, because I'm as much of a train fan as I am a Transformers fan.

And still your comparison to Fire Convoy or even G1 Prime's fuel tanks is also inaccurate. Fire Convoy's back half and Prime's tanks were in their respective cartoons and on their respective original toys. Astrotrain's tender was not.

And his point is that the original toy and cartoon should have had the tender because, to him, both look wrong without it.

Exactly. Looking at the G1 toy and cartoon depiction is like looking at the steam engine version of this:

I understand that. But that's his opinion. I'm stating facts.

Mmmmm, only half of what you're saying - that the tender was not in the cartoon or part of the original toy - is actually a fact.
Your statement that that makes it unnecessary, that cartoon accuracy should have supremacy in this matter, however? Is as much of an opinion as my statement that it's necessary because it's something the thing he's turning into is supposed to have and cannot function without.

I'm also of the opinion that your real, underlying complaint is that a character you were expecting to be at the Voyager price point if he showed up again wound up at the Leader price point instead, and you resent the additional accessories he has compared to the original toy because you blame them for the price increase.

My perspective on it is that between other characters requiring Voyager slots and the Leader class being an awkward fit for so much of the G1 cast and thus needing to be used more creatively, Astrotrain was going to be stuck at that price point anyway. And that therefore it's a good thing they made it worthwhile by supplying a tender to finally complete his locomotive mode.

This has become about Siege Astrotrain again?

I could appreciate the tender hiding the giant rockets in the back of the train more if the train mode itself was done better.

For the most part I think it's pretty good. I only have three complaints:
1. The narrower front end. Such is the price for him having real feet, especially real feet with ankle tilts.
2. The tender, while an essential piece AFAIC, does look a biiiit much like Armada Optimus' trailer cosplaying as a D51 tender
3. The tender connection isn't hinged.

As it stands, though, the tender gets put aside for two out of the three modes.

*ahem*

And the robot mode can at least make use of it as equipment.

And it isn't as integral to the vehicle mode's design as Prime's trailer was, to me anyway. I'm a G1 cartoon fan, not a train fan.

As someone who's both, I consider it more integral (I mean, a semi cab can function independently of a trailer), and the absence of a tender prior to the SIEGE/ER toy has always bugged me.

Not that I think Prime's trailer is unimportant, mind you; it's a key feature and I would love to see a Commander Class Optimus one of these days so that it can actually be done justice in a non-MP modern figure.

[Gauntlet101010]

The narrower front end.

This right here is what kills that mode for me, never mind a rocket booster pack on the back or the tender. It looks like it should run on four rails. I just can't unsee how unsightly the front end is.

I don't buy that there was no other way to go about doing this. Design-wise the Siege / ER team has had a lot of hits. I just don't buy that they had no solution to the Astrotrain problem. At least one that didn't sacrifice two of the three modes.


Yeah, no. Maybe that use of the tender has it's fans, but it looks terrible.

I got AT for the bot mode because I think it's the best we'll get at that size. Unless another release proves me wrong. But I almost didn't because neither of the other modes look all that great, tender or no tender.