The Energon Pub

The Original 13 7 died to hide the Matrix, which in this continuity is the keys to the Sun Harvester. I doubt they'd kill themselves to hide it, but at the same time leave a spare.

Shadowman wrote:

OptiMagnus10 wrote:So, you're still yelling "PLOT HOLE!" before the movie is even out? This is exactly what I'm talking about. You're jumping to conclusions before you even know anything.

Yes, but at least I'm using logic, and not telling people they aren't allowed to discuss it until we see it. It's a plot hole, and when the movie comes out, we'll see how they fill it.

Wow...you're probably the first person I've seen say "we'll see how they fill it", as opposed to "Bay doesn't care so he won't fill it".

SlyTF1 wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:If I remember correctly, the declaration about the last Prime is delivered by Jetfire.

True, but the Ghost of the Primes also refereed to Optimus as their last decedent.

SlyTF1 wrote: What if no one knew Sentinel was alive?

The ghost of the other Primes should have known.

They said he was their last DECENDANT. It doesn't mean that he's the only one alive.

Actually it does, considering the context of the film and how it was said.

SkySeige wrote:I just had a very intresting thought. In ROTF we see use of the Matrix of leadership but it wasent mentioned as the "AUTOBOT" matrix of leadership, what if after the civil war broke out the first "Primes" ancestors created the "AUTOBOT" matrix of leadership ?, if thats the case wouldnt Sentinel Prime of been the last one to have it? If we asssume that, by the time Sentinel was lost they may have lost the ability to create another so Optimus never used one. We may actually get to see a handing down of the REAL Autobot matrix in this movie. Saying that its a "Bay" movie and he doesnt like giving the fans what we would love to see....oh well its atleast a good thought.

There's no confirmation that the descendants of the Primes lived one at a time.There could have been hundreds at some interval.

It's possible if such a thing as an Autobot-specific Matrix (of leadership) exists somewhere in the Movieverse, at least the fallen, as a non-Autobot, would be unable to 'use' it.

(Of course, the Primes may not be Autobots or Decepticons at all, just Primes.Autobot Primes and Decepticon Primes may only have appeared much, much later, potentially alongside quintesson Primes, even).

Still, the fallen didn't lose his capability to register within the Matrix after his identity was erased from his race...so...anything goes.(Edit 2: Of course, Sam isn't an Autobot and the Matrix registered him, turning to dust at his touch in order to teach him the rules of the game- but as far as I'm concerned that was just the Primes via Prehistory, watching the gang and remote-controlling the Matrix through itself.It's possible they and only they can actually use it).

Basically, as far as I'm concerned, Sentinel Prime was lost, and never heard from again. He could have been expected to have gone offline and therefore anticipated to eventually come back online and return for
Robo-Millennia, but didn't do so within the time frame that his civilization had the time/patience/reason to keep waiting for/remembering him, so they wrote him off as propably destroyed or else guaranteed to have gone into stasis but the stasis went faulty somehow, and therefore terminated.

Also, since magic doesn't exist in TF business, and Mysticism is just physics, the Primes were (in my book) projecting to Sam through time from Prehistory.
They can adjust the 'telepathic' frequency (G1 Soundwave can do it as well) to get straight into his head,thereby 'scanning',if not manipulating his thoughts and emotions.
As a result, they entomb themselves around the Matrix BECAUSE they know,from Sam, and perhaps also from Optimus and Jetfire, that Optimus will be in the area at a certain later date to claim it.
THEREFORE:
The only plothole (relevant to this thread)that can occur is this:
That if the Primes conduct 'a twittering' (as I call it) again in Dotm, specifically to Sentinel, anyone who has LEARNT of Sentinels return at a point AFTER he has returned, anyone who has SEEN Sentinel,or Sam (whom they have already linked to), then there is no way for the Primes to not know about Sentinels return during their twittering in rotf,because any cumulative knowledge they know about the future is at max by the time they confirm that Sam will be at Oprtimus's side in Egypt/Jordan.
This is the very last thing they need to know before hiding the Matrix and themselves from the fallen.
Therefore, even if Optimus uses the Matrix in Dotm to speak with them, he is speaking to them at a point before they have died.Any such interaction immediately nullifies the Primes statement to Sam that Optimus Prime is the last Prime (even if Sentinel dies at some point before or later in Dotm).
If they are shown to Twitter to the Matrix during Dotm, their statement in Rotf is again null and void.

EDIT: That's the only plothole if we ignore Sams 'channeling' in rotf.If we factor it in, the whole Allspark/well of Sparks/Spark-of-Sparks` and any subconciously active Transformer (stasis/deep torpor/near death/the 'ghost' of Jazz) is totally aware of the expedition, it's location, it's status, and its' importance and gives it so much emphasis that the message gets pushed so far forward to Sams concious that he almost manages a sentence out of it.In which case the planned events in rotf and dotm have been nothing but a carefully precision built plothole since TF1.
And THAT is funny!

(By the way, who said Egypt was a desert in prehistory?)
(Also, I'ver been waiting for someone to notice, that "Brother" Megatron is also a descendant if the Primes, is he not?)

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:If I remember correctly, the declaration about the last Prime is delivered by Jetfire.

True, but the Ghost of the Primes also refereed to Optimus as their last decedent.

SlyTF1 wrote: What if no one knew Sentinel was alive?

The ghost of the other Primes should have known.

They said he was their last DECENDANT. It doesn't mean that he's the only one alive.

Actually it does, considering the context of the film and how it was said.

They had to have other descendants. Sentinel Prime, apparently is another descendant.

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:It's possible if such a thing as an Autobot-specific Matrix (of leadership) exists somewhere in the Movieverse, at least the fallen, as a non-Autobot, would be unable to 'use' it.

Theres no reason to assume the Fallen wouldnt be able to use it.

1]The Fallen isint really a Decepticon
2]In G1, both comic and toon, Decepticons were able to use the matrix in some shape or form

Also, since magic doesn't exist in TF business, and Mysticism is just physics, the Primes were (in my book) projecting to Sam through time from Prehistory.
They can adjust the 'telepathic' frequency (G1 Soundwave can do it as well) to get straight into his head,thereby 'scanning',if not manipulating his thoughts and emotions.
As a result, they entomb themselves around the Matrix BECAUSE they know,from Sam, and perhaps also from Optimus and Jetfire, that Optimus will be in the area at a certain later date to claim it.
THEREFORE:
The only plothole (relevant to this thread)that can occur is this:
That if the Primes conduct 'a twittering' (as I call it) again in Dotm, specifically to Sentinel, anyone who has LEARNT of Sentinels return at a point AFTER he has returned, anyone who has SEEN Sentinel,or Sam (whom they have already linked to), then there is no way for the Primes to not know about Sentinels return during their twittering in rotf,because any cumulative knowledge they know about the future is at max by the time they confirm that Sam will be at Oprtimus's side in Egypt/Jordan.
This is the very last thing they need to know before hiding the Matrix and themselves from the fallen.
Therefore, even if Optimus uses the Matrix in Dotm to speak with them, he is speaking to them at a point before they have died.Any such interaction immediately nullifies the Primes statement to Sam that Optimus Prime is the last Prime (even if Sentinel dies at some point before or later in Dotm).
If they are shown to Twitter to the Matrix during Dotm, their statement in Rotf is again null and void.

Nice try to twist it, but your assuming facts not in evidence.Your "magic doesn't exist" statement.Thats something we just dont know, and I really dont see how its relevant.

I'ver been waiting for someone to notice, that "Brother" Megatron is also a descendant if the Primes, is he not?)

It was never really confirmed in the films that "brother" ment sibling.

SlyTF1 wrote:
They had to have other descendants.

At some point in history...yes.

But the messege given in ROTF was that Optimus was the last living Prime decedent at the time of the film.

Sentinel Prime, apparently is another descendant.

And his existence creates a story inconstancy or renders the story of the last film pointless.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:It's possible if such a thing as an Autobot-specific Matrix (of leadership) exists somewhere in the Movieverse, at least the fallen, as a non-Autobot, would be unable to 'use' it.

Theres no reason to assume the Fallen wouldnt be able to use it.

1]The Fallen isint really a Decepticon
2]In G1, both comic and toon, Decepticons were able to use the matrix in some shape or form



Nice try to twist it, but your assuming facts not in evidence.Your "magic doesn't exist" statement.Thats something we just dont know, and I really dont see how its relevant.

I'ver been waiting for someone to notice, that "Brother" Megatron is also a descendant if the Primes, is he not?)

It was never really confirmed in the films that "brother" ment sibling.

SlyTF1 wrote:
They had to have other descendants.

At some point in history...yes.

But the messege given in ROTF was that Optimus was the last living Prime decedent at the time of the film.

Sentinel Prime, apparently is another descendant.

And his existence creates a story inconstancy or renders the story of the last film pointless.

1.I don't mean the fallen is decep.I mean he predates both deceps and a/bots.The Generation gap may be huge.Just because Bay is walking out doesn't mean the movieverse is gonna stop being told.There are still things we don't know and can speculate as followers in the middle of a story, rather than declare with finality that it's established that they are writ in stone.
2.I'm not trying to twist it.The speed of thought is faster and more maneuverable than the speed of time, and magic is just physics.

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:2.I'm not trying to twist it.The speed of thought is faster and more maneuverable than the speed of time, and magic is just physics.

Still a bit of a twist, because the messege delivered in the last film was that the Ghost were comunicating from the "super natural" level, and not trew time and space.

I don't really know why everyone is screaming bloody murder about a "plot hole" in a movie that hasn't been released yet.

We have absolutely no proof that Sentinel had been online during the events of ROTF. The ship on the moon was described as a living tomb, it crashed there, we know NASA investigates it in the '60's. The teaser DID NOT specify that he reactivates THEN. Just at some point he does. Which could be AFTER ROTF. And since I seriously doubt NASA had the ability to bring him back from the moon, he may have layed there dormant for decades until something/someone in modern day reawakens him. Not online + no other Cybertronian knows where the hell you're at = dead at the time.

Pontimax 01 wrote:I don't really know why everyone is screaming bloody murder about a "plot hole" in a movie that hasn't been released yet.

We have absolutely no proof that Sentinel had been online during the events of ROTF.

Even if he was off line durring the last film he still poses a probvlem

The ghost still called Optimus the last, even thou Optimus himself was off line at the time.

If there was an other Prime, close by, off line or not, The Ghost should have known about it.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Pontimax 01 wrote:I don't really know why everyone is screaming bloody murder about a "plot hole" in a movie that hasn't been released yet.

We have absolutely no proof that Sentinel had been online during the events of ROTF.

Even if he was off line durring the last film he still poses a probvlem

The ghost still called Optimus the last, even thou Optimus himself was off line at the time.

If there was an other Prime, close by, off line or not, The Ghost should have known about it.

Maybe they thought Sentinel was a dink. Just liked Prime better. I still think it's not time to get up in arms about it. If they don't address it correctly, then get out the torches and pitch forks.

Pontimax 01 wrote:
Maybe they thought Sentinel was a dink. Just liked Prime better.

Not in keeping with how they were dipicted.

I still think it's not time to get up in arms about it. If they don't address it correctly, then get out the torches and pitch forks.

I really dont care much about it.I'm just pointing out the fact of the matter.

And theres really no way they can address it correctly with out creating either a continuity error or rendering the story of the last film pointless.

he was the last prime, but this is the bayformers where the only thing to stop the fallen is a prime. so what do the primes do, kill themselves to hide the matrix, thereby having no way to stop the fallen if he does find the matrix

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Pontimax 01 wrote:
Maybe they thought Sentinel was a dink. Just liked Prime better.

Not in keeping with how they were dipicted.

I still think it's not time to get up in arms about it. If they don't address it correctly, then get out the torches and pitch forks.

I really dont care much about it.I'm just pointing out the fact of the matter.

And theres really no way they can address it correctly with out creating either a continuity error or rendering the story of the last film pointless.

I suppose that's all in your opinion. In keeping with your character though, you'll surely continue to argue it as "fact of the matter" in a fictional world that actually requires little to no actual explanation. Like I said, see the film first.


*Edit - not slighting you. If it sounds that way, its not in a bad way.

Seeing as how there is a lot of build up around the character Sentinel Prime, It will most likely be explained.

holy crap, jeez people, they are just movies.

to clarify. i am not a "hater" nor do i think bay is a genius.
i like the movies just fine. i own both (granted bought off the discount shelf)

i just think bay shoots fast and free. i dont think he lets petty little things like plot or continuity get in the way of explosions and excitement, hes just not that kind of director. he goes for instant gratification, glitz and drama...

once again before the fanboys start hauling out their crosses to nail me up. i am not a hater, i just think bay makes the tf movies for light entertainment purposes only...

come on people bay is not the frikken messiah... its just a movie inspired from a movie based on a cartoon based off a toyline...

light entertainment can still be intelligent and coherent.

in fact it adds to the experience

this is true. i am not debateing that. however i think bay is a more showgirls and fireworks kind of entertainer... which isnt necessarily a bad thing...

not being able to tell simple atory without contradicting yourself is a bad thing

Pontimax 01 wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Pontimax 01 wrote:
Maybe they thought Sentinel was a dink. Just liked Prime better.

Not in keeping with how they were dipicted.

I still think it's not time to get up in arms about it. If they don't address it correctly, then get out the torches and pitch forks.

I really dont care much about it.I'm just pointing out the fact of the matter.

And theres really no way they can address it correctly with out creating either a continuity error or rendering the story of the last film pointless.

I suppose that's all in your opinion. In keeping with your character though, you'll surely continue to argue it as "fact of the matter" in a fictional world that actually requires little to no actual explanation. Like I said, see the film first.


*Edit - not slighting you. If it sounds that way, its not in a bad way.

Dont worry, I dont consider your words harsh or anything.

But its not really an opinion.The existence of an other Prime does create issue with the story told so far.

Slashercon wrote:Seeing as how there is a lot of build up around the character Sentinel Prime, It will most likely be explained.

inadequately so I'm expecting.

meh, it depends what your in it for i suppose. for me its all about the toys really, so the movies dont really effect me. could they have been better? yep. is it worht getting worked up over? nope.

when i saw rotf i only had three criteria
1. at least 30 seconds of soundwave
2. at least 30 seconds of ravage
3. some cool robots
as these were my expectations i left rotf feeling entertained and looking forward to a cool toyline. was i expecting deep intellectual stimulation? good gods no, if anyone was then its no wonder they were pissed off and disapointed...

cmon peeps we should know what to expect youve seen the first 2 films, its not rocket science. its a bay movie...

big explosions? check
big robots? check
big explosions? check
hot (debatable) girl? check
big explosions? check
infantile humour? check
big explosions? check

job done, bring on the toyline...

shadowynne wrote:meh, it depends what your in it for i suppose. for me its all about the toys really, so the movies dont really effect me. could they have been better? yep. is it worht getting worked up over? nope.

when i saw rotf i only had three criteria
1. at least 30 seconds of soundwave
2. at least 30 seconds of ravage
3. some cool robots
as these were my expectations i left rotf feeling entertained and looking forward to a cool toyline. was i expecting deep intellectual stimulation? good gods no, if anyone was then its no wonder they were pissed off and disapointed...

cmon peeps we should know what to expect youve seen the first 2 films, its not rocket science. its a bay movie...

big explosions? check
big robots? check
big explosions? check
hot (debatable) girl? check
big explosions? check
infantile humour? check
big explosions? check

job done, bring on the toyline...

THIS!!! Except I did get a deep intellectual stimulation...after I analyzed every grain of sand and every sentence and outfit the characters wore in the movie...you learn a lot. Maybe most of it was coincidence, or they may have been subtle hints that no one but me has ever noticed before;IDK.

You can't forget rodimus prime, even though in wfc the council of elders told optimus was the last prime.

yeah actually i got some deep intellectual stimulation from some of the alice scenes... oh wait not intellectual, the other one...

SlyTF1 wrote:THIS!!! Except I did get a deep intellectual stimulation...after I analyzed every grain of sand and every sentence and outfit the characters wore in the movie...you learn a lot. Maybe most of it was coincidence, or they may have been subtle hints that no one but me has ever noticed before;IDK.

There was nothing intellectual about any of the movies. Anything can seem intellectual, but most of the time it's because the viewer is looking too deep. What you think you see and what the makers intended are two very different things. Learn to tell the difference.