Transformers and More @ The Seibertron Store
![Visit shop.seibertron.com to buy "SMOKESCREEN Transformers Revenge Fallen ROTF Deluxe complete 2009 240427E"](https://www.seibertron.com/images/ebay/rotf/deluxe-class/smokescreen-240427E/t-ASC09561.jpg)
![Visit shop.seibertron.com to buy "SCALPEL Transformers Revenge Fallen ROTF Scout complete + instructions 240427C"](https://www.seibertron.com/images/ebay/rotf/scout-class/scalpel-240427C/t-ASC08969.jpg)
![Visit shop.seibertron.com to buy "Robot Heroes SKIDS Transformers Movie Series Revenge Fallen ROTF 2009 240427E"](https://www.seibertron.com/images/ebay/rotf/robot-heroes/skids-240427E/t-DSC05615.jpg)
"Say goodbye to the universe, Maximals! The future has changed, yessssss. The Autobots lose! Evil triumphs! And you...YOU NO LONGER EXIST!"
I second this in its entirety, especially the last paragraph. I will say, however, that season 3 of Beast Wars could have been better, if they kept the focus on the events of The Agenda entirely, or at least much more closely. Also, I don't think Transmutate was good at all. It was one of the worst episodes, and the series didn't have many bad ones. And I understand the need to market new toys, but I also think the series would have been better if not as many new characters were introduced and the originals didn't undergo so many changes. I really dislike the Transmetals. That's one of the reasons I liked Rhinox, Waspinator and Inferno more than the others. They never changed. I really liked Megatron as well, but it would have been better if he went from T-Rex straight to dragon.ZeroWolf wrote:Actually it would have caused a universe destroying paradox. After all if the decepticons won and the predacons were never established, then who went back in time to kill optimus to ensure that the decepticons won? Bw megs couldn't have done it as he would never have existed and normal megatron would never have told anyone to go back in time, after all, if he did there would have been someone else there to destroy optimus!
That however is still ignoring the biggest elephant in the room which is Unicron, with out the matrix (which no decpticon could open) then the chaos bringer destroys everything thus there's no one to travel back in time to destroy prime...
A final thing though, the episode is perfect as it is because of the loop hole that optimus spark survived, megs would have got what he wanted if not for that (which as I pointed out above was probably a good thing)
ZeroWolf wrote:Actually it would have caused a universe destroying paradox. After all if the decepticons won and the predacons were never established, then who went back in time to kill optimus to ensure that the decepticons won? Bw megs couldn't have done it as he would never have existed and normal megatron would never have told anyone to go back in time, after all, if he did there would have been someone else there to destroy optimus!
ZeroWolf wrote:That however is still ignoring the biggest elephant in the room which is Unicron, with out the matrix (which no decpticon could open) then the chaos bringer destroys everything thus there's no one to travel back in time to destroy prime...
ZeroWolf wrote:A final thing though, the episode is perfect as it is because of the loop hole that optimus spark survived, megs would have got what he wanted if not for that (which as I pointed out above was probably a good thing)
Rodimus Prime wrote: I second this in its entirety, especially the last paragraph. I will say, however, that season 3 of Beast Wars could have been better, if they kept the focus on the events of The Agenda entirely, or at least much more closely. Also, I don't think Transmutate was good at all. It was one of the worst episodes, and the series didn't have many bad ones. And I understand the need to market new toys, but I also think the series would have been better if not as many new characters were introduced and the originals didn't undergo so many changes. I really dislike the Transmetals. That's one of the reasons I liked Rhinox, Waspinator and Inferno more than the others. They never changed. I really liked Megatron as well, but it would have been better if he went from T-Rex straight to dragon.
ZeroWolf wrote:Now on to the other points:
Unicron being indifferent...yeah that's not accurate at all. Unicron started attacking cybertron as soon as be was sure it's last defence (the matrix) was rendered useless. He wanted cybertron gone. After all this is what Simon Furman built on, to create a rivalry between primus and Unicron.
ZeroWolf wrote:Also worth noting that beast wars referenced both the toon and the comics as the Vok were heavily hinted to be the reformatted Swarm from G2.
ZeroWolf wrote:Cataclysmic damage? Unless Optimus primes body completely exploded then there's no issue as his spark is what was important.
ZeroWolf wrote:Now on to paradoxes, my interpretation is that as soon as the paradox happens that's it, there wouldn't have been a season three to explore this idea as reality would of tore itself apart.
ZeroWolf wrote:The writers for bw knew what they doing when they did it and resolved it
ZeroWolf wrote:But did they take target 2006 into account? After all it was said in interviews after the fact that bw was set in a timeline where some events from the cartoon and comics happened. You're presuming like I did what's cannon and what's not. So let's look at just the show. So the shot happens and the time storm starts, as you say in most other fictions this is where there would be a split (like IDW where it's been established that changing timelines creates new universes that are parallel to each other...like dragonball z with its take on time travel) if that were the case there wouldn't be a time storm as their future would still exist, it's just that megs actions would of caused a new one. However, because we see a time storm it becomes clear that there's going to be a rewrite, and with it a paradox as megs couldn't of gone back in time to kill optimus as the original megatron wouldn't have needed anyone to kill op as he was already dead. So thanks to primal and co, disaster is averted...and primal gets a nifty upgrade. So yeah the writers knew what they were doing...it's just that you didn't like the direction you wantedbut to be fair, megs achieved his goal of taking over cybertron in beast machines.
ZeroWolf wrote:As for Unicron, in the Movie he was already targeting cybertron (remember the moons? Galvatron hadn't betrayed him yet) when galvy upset him, he turned to robot mode to prolong the planet (and Galvatron) suffering. As I said, Unicron wanted cybertron gone, regardless of what Galvatron did. I would think that if galvy played along he would be to Unicron what the silver surfer was to galactus.
Galvatron: "How dare Unicron! Cybertron and all it's moons belong to me!"
*Cue torture*
Scourge: "But remember, we belong to Him"
Galvatron:"I belong to nobody!"
Galvatron: Unicron, my master... with this, I shall make you my slave.
*Unicron Roars*
Galvatron: Unicron! Unicron! Answer me! See this, the Matrix. I now possess that which you most fear.
*Unicron Roars (again)*
Galvatron: You'll do my bidding or taste my wrath!
Unicron: You underestimate me, Galvatron.
Unicron:"For a time, I considered sparing your wretched little planet, Cybertron. But now, you shall witness... its DISMEMBERMENT!"
That’s not entirely accurate, And based on unicRoma own words he did seem indifferent about cybertronZeroWolf wrote:Unicron being indifferent...yeah that's not accurate at all. Unicron started attacking cybertron as soon as be was sure it's last defence (the matrix) was rendered useless. He wanted cybertron gone. After all this is what Simon Furman built on, to create a rivalry between primus and Unicron.
As for Unicron, in the Movie he was already targeting cybertron (remember the moons? Galvatron hadn't betrayed him yet) when galvy upset him, he turned to robot mode to prolong the planet (and Galvatron) suffering. As I said, Unicron wanted cybertron gone,
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Plus, other than being spoken, has the "Decepticons can't open the Matrix" ever been physically shown in canon?
.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:That’s not entirely accurate, And based on unicRoma own words he did seem indifferent about cybertronZeroWolf wrote:Unicron being indifferent...yeah that's not accurate at all. Unicron started attacking cybertron as soon as be was sure it's last defence (the matrix) was rendered useless. He wanted cybertron gone. After all this is what Simon Furman built on, to create a rivalry between primus and Unicron.
He only started attacking the planet after Galvatrons attempted betrayal failed , And based on his own words he considered sparing cybertronAs for Unicron, in the Movie he was already targeting cybertron (remember the moons? Galvatron hadn't betrayed him yet) when galvy upset him, he turned to robot mode to prolong the planet (and Galvatron) suffering. As I said, Unicron wanted cybertron gone,
I don’t see how the moons help your argument in fact they seem to hurt
Do you remember the first planet he destroyed?
Do you remember the words of the last survivor of the planet?
Seen he was pretty much targeting anything in its path not cybertron in particular, Think about it if you want to cybertron only then why to bother stopping with the moons And not go direct to the target you clean it was after?
A
ZeroWolf wrote:@gobots that is actually complicated as they've don't own the cartoon rights (I.e. the fiction) as there still with warner bros and the original molds for the toys belong to Bandai (who own machine robo) so all hasbro have is names
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Plus, other than being spoken, has the "Decepticons can't open the Matrix" ever been physically shown in canon?
.
In the cartoon....No
But in the comics it was a decepticon that was able to open the matrix and use it for power
ZeroWolf wrote:Actually a thought, in beast wars neo it turns out that Unicron was manipulating certain events in order to revive himself, which take did takara go with him? (Comic or toon?)
Thanks for the complimentZeroWolf wrote:sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:That’s not entirely accurate, And based on unicRoma own words he did seem indifferent about cybertronZeroWolf wrote:Unicron being indifferent...yeah that's not accurate at all. Unicron started attacking cybertron as soon as be was sure it's last defence (the matrix) was rendered useless. He wanted cybertron gone. After all this is what Simon Furman built on, to create a rivalry between primus and Unicron.
He only started attacking the planet after Galvatrons attempted betrayal failed , And based on his own words he considered sparing cybertronAs for Unicron, in the Movie he was already targeting cybertron (remember the moons? Galvatron hadn't betrayed him yet) when galvy upset him, he turned to robot mode to prolong the planet (and Galvatron) suffering. As I said, Unicron wanted cybertron gone,
I don’t see how the moons help your argument in fact they seem to hurt
Do you remember the first planet he destroyed?
Do you remember the words of the last survivor of the planet?
Seen he was pretty much targeting anything in its path not cybertron in particular, Think about it if you want to cybertron only then why to bother stopping with the moons And not go direct to the target you clean it was after?
A
A
Thanks for the input stoI always value what you post especially in regards to the very early days. I can see I was wrong with Unicron, maybe letting later interpretations affect my thinking on him but we don't know which Unicron beast wars mentioned...
Actually a thought, in beast wars neo it turns out that Unicron was manipulating certain events in order to revive himself, which take did takara go with him? (Comic or toon?)
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
Yes on Thunderwing, Which by the way was a great story arc if you ever get the chance to pick up some of the books and read them you shouldAllNewSuperRobot wrote:ZeroWolf wrote:@gobots that is actually complicated as they've don't own the cartoon rights (I.e. the fiction) as there still with warner bros and the original molds for the toys belong to Bandai (who own machine robo) so all hasbro have is names
I see. So Gobots is in the same Rights limbo as Bravestarr.. wonderful. Given all the 80's properties, nothing could merge with Transformers easier (aside from Rock Lords, please don't bring them back) and yet with no greater irony.
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Plus, other than being spoken, has the "Decepticons can't open the Matrix" ever been physically shown in canon?
.
In the cartoon....No
But in the comics it was a decepticon that was able to open the matrix and use it for power
Thunderwing, yes? My knowledge of G1 comics is even sketchier than my Season 1 & 2 knowledge but I did read something about The Matrix becoming some kind of corrupted energy demon?ZeroWolf wrote:Actually a thought, in beast wars neo it turns out that Unicron was manipulating certain events in order to revive himself, which take did takara go with him? (Comic or toon?)
After hearing about the Japanese Dub of Beast Wars season 1 aka how Japan didn't get Beast Wars. I did decide to seek out Beast Wars 2 & Neo once. I got as far as the pilot of BW2 and tapped out. It reminded me of the awful dialogue and humour of the Unicron Trilogy. Plus, that teeth gritting Thing is no Galvatron. I think it's safe to assume the canon of BW doesn't mesh with these Takara BW series, given the team up between Leo Convoy and base form Optimus Primal...
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
AllNewSuperRobot wrote:A while back I started collecting a Transformers part-work that chronicles all TF comics. It's jumping around between series a bit but I will keep my eye out for that Thunderwing story. Although I am told Thunderwing isn't quite the same force of nature in G1 as when I first read about him in Stormbringer?
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:AllNewSuperRobot wrote:A while back I started collecting a Transformers part-work that chronicles all TF comics. It's jumping around between series a bit but I will keep my eye out for that Thunderwing story. Although I am told Thunderwing isn't quite the same force of nature in G1 as when I first read about him in Stormbringer?
I can agree with that assessment there is the issue with some of the G1 comics sometimes it was written very dark other times they were written with a kids mind as the primary target so it’s like a mixed bag of nuts
ZeroWolf wrote:For the most I think he's dormant as spotlight: sideswipe was his last proper appearance. It could be that they reframe from using him because he was one of Furman's signature characters but that's just conjecture on my part
Return to Transformers Cartoons and Comics Forum
Registered users: Bing [Bot], Drop Bear, Ebonsaber, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], MSN [Bot], MSNbot Media, Yahoo [Bot]