Buyer Beware: KO MP-16 Frenzy & Buzzsaw Sets Beginning to Appear In Markets

Damn, I bought MP Soundwave for the cassettes a couple weeks ago. I would have jumped on these if I had known. I wonder if they will KO ratbat when he comes out. I will jump on him for sure !

Are these like the MP Lambor and Alert KOs, in that they're actually made from excess parts and packaging from the production of the read deals? If so, I can't get as excited as I usually do, because only through reverse molding could we get some new color schemes that HasTak might never produce, like Garboil and Enemy for these two.

For the record, I bought Hasbro's MP Soundwave set, and have no QC complaints, but the horror stories I've heard of Ravage snapping in half and condor fins breaking from joint stiffness mean this is great news for those who did the right thing and shouldn't have to pay full price again to replace unavoidable breakage.

Still, I've been tempted to get the Takara version of this pair anyway due to the irony of their Frenzy being a more Marvel-accurate blue, meaning he goes way better with yellow-optic Soundwave. I'm RIRFIB 'till all life sparks are one, but even I look at Hasbro's red-eyed purple MP Frenzy and want to call him Rumble, and dammit, that's a flavor of wrong deeper than any ethical issues surrounding Knock-offs. Ya' puts purple on Soundwave, maybe Rumble, but not Frenzy!

Well, okay, Japanese continuity Frenzy was cartoon purple, but again, WTF happened?

So what you're saying is that this all pink Buzzsaw I just bought might not be legit?

I am normally quite anti-bootleg, but I suppose this set's existence might not be completely horrible in existing, as it could help out people who have had the misfortune of their Buzzsaw's fins snapping. I'd have been more forgiving of this set's existence if, rather then trying to look like the official release (which could easily fool people who are not careful) by pairing Buzzsaw up with Frenzy, they had instead paired him up with one of the other cassettes with known QC issues.

But nope. So never mind, it is horrible in existing.

Rated X wrote:Damn, I bought MP Soundwave for the cassettes a couple weeks ago. I would have jumped on these if I had known. I wonder if they will KO ratbat when he comes out. I will jump on him for sure !

So based on your post, it sounds as if you wanted the five cassettes but not Soundwave?

This two-pack of the KO Frenzy and Buzzsaw, as ordered from Aliexpress.com with the least expensive shipping option, costs $42.86 shipped to the U.S.

That's a cost of $21.43 per cassette.

Mutliply that five, and you get $107.15. (Although this multiplying by five is a fantasy scenario. Likely KO Lazerbeak would not be sold separately, but with a KO of Soundwave, bringing the price even higher.)

Meanwhile, Soundwave shipped from TRU.com cost $127.49. (I understand shipping may have been slightly different depending on where you lived, but we'll go with that and hope it is a good average.) I'll concede that he is out of stock at TRU.com, but hopefully you were able to luck across him in a store and pay a similar price to that, and you didn't pay some evil scalper's inflated price.

So, a hypothetical difference of about $20.34? Even if Soundwave himself was not on your wishlist, I think even you would have to admit that for about $20.00 he's a steal. I really think that in this round, Hasbro won pricewise. Plus, think of the convenience of getting everything, all at once, in one package! And, on top of that, you get to enjoy your official figure secure in the knowledge that you've supported the company that created it so that they can create more designs for you to enjoy in the future, rather then knowing your money went to some arsehole bootlegger, which I know would have kept you up at night sick with worry.

Yotsuyasan wrote:I am normally quite anti-bootleg, but I suppose this set's existence might not be completely horrible in existing, as it could help out people who have had the misfortune of their Buzzsaw's fins snapping. I'd have been more forgiving of this set's existence if, rather then trying to look like the official release (which could easily fool people who are not careful) by pairing Buzzsaw up with Frenzy, they had instead paired him up with one of the other cassettes with known QC issues.

But nope. So never mind, it is horrible in existing.

Rated X wrote:Damn, I bought MP Soundwave for the cassettes a couple weeks ago. I would have jumped on these if I had known. I wonder if they will KO ratbat when he comes out. I will jump on him for sure !

So based on your post, it sounds as if you wanted the five cassettes but not Soundwave?

This two-pack of the KO Frenzy and Buzzsaw, as ordered from Aliexpress.com with the least expensive shipping option, costs $42.86 shipped to the U.S.

That's a cost of $21.43 per cassette.

Mutliply that five, and you get $107.15. (Although this multiplying by five is a fantasy scenario. Likely KO Lazerbeak would not be sold separately, but with a KO of Soundwave, bringing the price even higher.)

Meanwhile, Soundwave shipped from TRU.com cost $127.49. (I understand shipping may have been slightly different depending on where you lived, but we'll go with that and hope it is a good average.) I'll concede that he is out of stock at TRU.com, but hopefully you were able to luck across him in a store and pay a similar price to that, and you didn't pay some evil scalper's inflated price.

So, a hypothetical difference of about $20.34? Even if Soundwave himself was not on your wishlist, I think even you would have to admit that for about $20.00 he's a steal. I really think that in this round, Hasbro won pricewise. Plus, think of the convenience of getting everything, all at once, in one package! And, on top of that, you get to enjoy your official figure secure in the knowledge that you've supported the company that created it so that they can create more designs for you to enjoy in the future, rather then knowing your money went to some arsehole bootlegger, which I know would have kept you up at night sick with worry.

I see your point. But factor in the 15-20 bucks I spent in gas driving around Miami to different TRU's until I finally found the damn thing. I paid 119 plus tax. Also I didn't even think of this, but KO's open the door to repaints like Enemy, Sundor, etc. I'm pretty sure when they get hold of Ratbat, that set will come with Lazerbeak.

These cassettes actually scale perfect with classics figures if you go by G1 cartoon standards. MP Ravage is actually smaller than classics ravage.

A KO doesn't necessarily mean we'll get repaints of these moulds. Rumour has it they're factory extras, not copies. Since they aren't copies we wouldn't get any recolours.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:A KO doesn't necessarily mean we'll get repaints of these moulds. Rumour has it they're factory extras, not copies. Since they aren't copies we wouldn't get any recolours.

How would "factory extras" end up in the hands of a private company instead of the Takara factory as a "restock" ? Im assuming these are painted to resemble the Takara versions which were sold without the Soundwave. So where are the "factory extras" for all the classics figures ? Why did only the MP line suffer this change of hands if the rumor is true ?

Just seeing the word ko and transformer together makes me so upset. And everytime I hear someone supporting that stuff in any kind of way is very bad. And the worse thing about it is that I haven't heard anything about someone trying to stop it.

Rated X wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:A KO doesn't necessarily mean we'll get repaints of these moulds. Rumour has it they're factory extras, not copies. Since they aren't copies we wouldn't get any recolours.

How would "factory extras" end up in the hands of a private company instead of the Takara factory as a "restock" ? Im assuming these are painted to resemble the Takara versions which were sold without the Soundwave. So where are the "factory extras" for all the classics figures ? Why did only the MP line suffer this change of hands if the rumor is true ?

They fall off the back of the truck because not all factory workers are honest.

I guess the MPs are made in a different facility. Or maybe someone is paying them to skim a few off the top. Can't honestly say, that's just a best guess. Maybe they're made int he same place as HA Barricade. But it doesn't look like there's anything to suggest these guys have actually been copied; that their moulds have been knocked off, strictly speaking. Which is why people suspect these are made from leftover parts. At least that's what I gather.

EagleTron wrote:Just seeing the word ko and transformer together makes me so upset. And everytime I hear someone supporting that stuff in any kind of way is very bad. And the worse thing about it is that I haven't heard anything about someone trying to stop it.

I do not own any KO figures outside a couple Aerialbots, and I'm neither for or against them. But sometimes KOs are the best way to go.

Let me give you a scenario: you just purchased MP Soundwave & Laserbeak. Not too long after, Laserbeak breaks for whatever reason, and Takara/retailer refuse to replace him. So now you're stuck with a broken Laserbeak. Little while later, you learn that a KO of Laserbeak is being produced and released by himself, with quality on par or a little lower than the official. And they have every detail down pat.

Would you rather splurge an extra $150 you don't have/can't afford, or get KO Laserbeak for the low low price of $20-30?

I will buy these .

I will buy these .

Mindmaster wrote:Let me give you a scenario: you just purchased MP Soundwave & Laserbeak. Not too long after, Laserbeak breaks for whatever reason, and Takara/retailer refuse to replace him. So now you're stuck with a broken Laserbeak. Little while later, you learn that a KO of Laserbeak is being produced and released by himself, with quality on par or a little lower than the official. And they have every detail down pat.

Would you rather splurge an extra $150 you don't have/can't afford, or get KO Laserbeak for the low low price of $20-30?

At the risk of beating the dead horse of the KO argument, let me give you a scenario.

First off, I have to assume that your scenario above happens outside of the allowed return/exchange window of whatever retailer you are dealing with, or the solution is simple: return the broken figure in exchange for another. We shall assume the same for my scenario here:

You just purchased an expensive DVD box set. Not too long after, one of the disks breaks for whatever reason, and the studio/retailer refuse to replace it. So now you're stuck with a broken DVD. Little while later, you learn that a KO of that DVD is being produced and released by itself, with quality on par or a little lower than the official. And they have every detail down pat.

So, is it legal or right to purchase that bootleg DVD?

The best scenario is the following:

What if I dont care about value and just want a collection that looks cool in my man cave ? When it comes to owning authentiv vintage figures, what good are "bragging rights" if you dont know any other TF collectors to brag to ? If they look just as cool as the originals, they will get the same amount of attention as the originals from friends and family. They will say "Thats cool, I used to have one I was young". For some collectors, thats all that matters is the "cool factor". This is why high quality KO's exist and flourish.

I don't need to brag, I just need to know for my own personal satisfaction that all my figures are genuine Hasbro/TT and not a KO. But that's just my personal preference.

Been burned once by KO's, that's enough for me to dislike them and the scum that try to pass them off as legitimate TF's.

Burn wrote:I don't need to brag, I just need to know for my own personal satisfaction that all my figures are genuine Hasbro/TT and not a KO. But that's just my personal preference.

Been burned once by KO's, that's enough for me to dislike them and the scum that try to pass them off as legitimate TF's.

You hit the nail on the head for me. I don't care what they are and who is buying them. I just want to identify if they are legit and not fooled by the packaging.

Shaking my head at y'all excuses and reasons to by a ko. How can you support anyone that Steals. Them ko are thieves of ppls hard work sacrifice s and ideas to bring us some good figures. Imaging it took you more than a year to come up with a invention and afther everything is said and done a couple of months later after you just start getting a taste of some good sales some else steals your entire design then they mislead buyers to think that its your product and then on top of that they try to make it better than the original. I wann blow up every transformer ko ever made. I feel sorry for Takara.

When it comes time to “re-issue” a 30 year old toy, do you anti-KO guys really believe Hasbro mails a check to the original designer of the figure or artist who designed the character? Half of those guys are dead or collected their last paycheck from Hasbro in the late 80’s. So when you scream “IP infringement” in this day and age, you’re not defending the people who created the characters we love. You’re defending the corporate investors who bought up the copyrights and hoarded them for 30 years. A lot of you anti-KO people just don’t get it. You’re just defending corporate interests and investments that belong to people who don’t give a crap about the fandom. I have no attachment to today’s Hasbro corporate division. They didn’t create G1 and the revenue it still draws; they just inherited G1 by corporate affiliation. How am I supposed to respect that?

Additionally, once something is old enough to become “vintage” the retro factor starts to kick in. You got tons of trendy people who want an Optimus Prime on their shelf because it looks cool, not because it is vintage. That’s the KO markets strongest market, and it’s a big one. Fair weather fans make up a majority of the collectors who buy KO’s. To some, “personal satisfaction” might come from knowing you own an authentic Transformer. But to others, the “personal satisfaction” might come from non-collector friends checking out your KO’s and saying “damn that retro stuff is cool!”

On newer KO’s such as copies of Botcon figures or MP Issues, all I can say is the price is right. Why pay inflated collector prices if you can avoid it? If it looks like a duck and quacks it’s a duck for many people. Not everybody is so critical.

So it's alright as long as you don't feel that the owner owns it?

Hasbro/TT pay people to design and create characters. That payment is their right to own the designs and the characters.

That's the same for ANY business. I work for an engineering firm, our engineers are well aware that any designs they create are owned by the business as they are reimbursed.

To sit there and try to chastise us "anti-KO guys" for buying legitimate figures because we're not supporting the original designers is utter garbage. That's the whole basis of being paid for your work, you give up ownership rights.

And personally, it's not about supporting "the corporations" Rated X so vehermently decries, I just want legitimate figures in my collection. That's my personal preference, nothing more nothing less.

If you want nice little shiney things on your shelves and you don't care who made it, go right ahead. That's your decision, how you collect is your decision, I collect in my own way and if people can't accept that, well I just don't care. Call me all the names you want, criticise my choices all you want, it means NOTHING to me what you think because it's MY collection.

You can self justify all you want, but there's a key difference between KO and a HasTak or even TP product. One design is stolen and the other is not. So you can argue about affordability and availability all you want, but when you support unscrupulous people you are taking some of the guilt onto yourself.

Whether that matters or not to you is each individual's decision. For me, at least part of the cool factor is having a genuine original product, to the point where I'm willing to pay a lot more for an '84 1st run toy than a re-release. On the other hand there's the value side of it. My collection has meaning to me not only because I love the toys I have, but because some of them are limited release items. Releases of high quality KO's can kill the potential value of the real thing. While I haven't sold anything yet, one day I might and I'd like to think the $100+ I sank into an MP is holding up or maybe even worth more because I have something cool AND rare. And that's another part of it, it's cool to have things in your collection because they are rare, because not everyone will have one. If KO's make something common, then we all lose something.

Keeping in mind that HasTak does what all companies do, try to make as much money as possible, and tactics such as re-releases and redecos are blatant moves to cash in, something I try not to support too much. But this mentality underlines the most important reason to choose to buy the real thing at a somewhat higher price than a cheaper alternative. HasTak are the ones that develops these toys and they expect to make money off of them. If there comes a day when they don't see a return on the investment they make in developing and producing high end figures like MP's, then they'll stop making them. If that horrible day ever happens, don't expect the KO companies to step in and start developing their own original high quality designs, they'll just rip off something else.

While there has been some great third party work they're often hampered by limited resources and the inability to directly reference the product IP. So while I doubt there'll ever be a day when we won't have new high quality figures, it'll be a sad day if TT and Hasbro backs out of that market.

Takara made an incredible set of cassettes based on the G1 toon? FUCK THOSE CORPERATE ASSHOLES! THEY DON'T DESERVE MY MONEY!

Yeah ... I don't understand that mentality. I get the whole price argument, but not the Hasbro/Takara hate argument.

I've said all this before, but this thread is a rehash of old arguments so why not? On the greater KO debate, I prefer originals. But I do have a few "replica KOs". When it comes to KOs I was generally interested in those multicoloured Seekers in that small time when it seemed like KOs had something of genuine substance to contribute. That time has come and gone, it seems.

When it comes to G1 KOs, support for them is really short sighted. Yeah it's nice for those who collect KOs. But collectors who want G1 originals and who want to sell G1 originals - they're screwed. Personally, I'd never buy a G1 off ebay; I'd have to wait until a con comes around. It's all well and good to like what KOs bring to the table, but you should at least see how they damage the hobby for others. Saying that it's all the same because they're "high quality" (and that's debatable) is ignoring the problem.

I guess I’m gonna have to agree to disagree with you guys on KO’s and IP. You guys just seem to respect Hasbro corporate interests a lot more than I do. I respect the creators of G1, not the current IP owners. I doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand why I feel that way. It’s like if a recipe gets passed down for generations and is kept a family secret for 100 years. Sure the great grandson might own it, but don’t act like he created it. He’s just a stakeholder, nothing more. Some of you people act like the current Hasbro executives created G1. I don’t sugarcoat it. They’re 30 year old characters. My loyalty lies with the characters and they’re fiction, not the guys who profit off of it.

But if you hate KO’s so much do get caught being a hypocrite. When your car needs new air filter, go straight to the dealer and spend 50 bucks. Don’t get caught going to Auto Zone and supporting those horrible knockoffs. And when your printer runs out of ink, don’t be a criminal and refill your ink cartridge for 8 bucks at Walgreens. That’s cheating HP the inventors of the color printer. Make sure you pay them $21.99 to show you’re support for the corporation.

Rated X wrote:I guess I’m gonna have to agree to disagree with you guys on KO’s and IP. You guys just seem to respect Hasbro corporate interests a lot more than I do. I respect the creators of G1, not the current IP owners. I doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand why I feel that way. It’s like if a recipe gets passed down for generations and is kept a family secret for 100 years. Sure the great grandson might own it, but don’t act like he created it. He’s just a stakeholder, nothing more. Some of you people act like the current Hasbro executives created G1. I don’t sugarcoat it. They’re 30 year old characters. My loyalty lies with the characters and they’re fiction, not the guys who profit off of it.

But if you hate KO’s so much do get caught being a hypocrite. When your car needs new air filter, go straight to the dealer and spend 50 bucks. Don’t get caught going to Auto Zone and supporting those horrible knockoffs. And when your printer runs out of ink, don’t be a criminal and refill your ink cartridge for 8 bucks at Walgreens. That’s cheating HP the inventors of the color printer. Make sure you pay them $21.99 to show you’re support for the corporation.

The designers/companies of those products enable people to do those things. So how is it the same?

Rated X wrote:Some of you people act like the current Hasbro executives created G1.

Care to provide some examples? Because that's not the impression I'm getting from what I read here.

My loyalty lies with the characters and they’re fiction, not the guys who profit off of it.

Good for you. But if you're going to label "anti-KO'ers" hypocrites then take a look in the mirror.

Your support of KO's and 3rd party companies is not showing loyalty to the characters. You're just paying someone else instead of Hasbro/TT. You're not paying the original creators either.

Rated X wrote:I guess I’m gonna have to agree to disagree with you guys on KO’s and IP. You guys just seem to respect Hasbro corporate interests a lot more than I do. I respect the creators of G1, not the current IP owners. I doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand why I feel that way. It’s like if a recipe gets passed down for generations and is kept a family secret for 100 years. Sure the great grandson might own it, but don’t act like he created it. He’s just a stakeholder, nothing more. Some of you people act like the current Hasbro executives created G1. I don’t sugarcoat it. They’re 30 year old characters. My loyalty lies with the characters and they’re fiction, not the guys who profit off of it.

No one is saying the current people working at Hasbro designed the G1 toys. Find one person who said that. But the designs were, back in the day, either purchased by Hasbro or designed by people working for Hasbro. (There is the occasional exception, hence why some of the G1 toys haven't been reissued.) The designs are Hasbro's property. The people who make knock-offs are steeling that property, and you are purchasing stolen goods, because your sense of entitlement tells you it is fine for you to do so.

By that logic, if I feel entitled to your property, and someone steels it, it is fine if I cheaply buy it off that thief, right? Because I am only following your example.

You guys are just way too sensitive. What you guys consider "stolen" property I consider to be community property. Maybe back in the 80's I would have defended Hasbro and said KO's and 3rd parties were stealing Hasbro's property. But it's 2013 and G1 is 30 years old ! Lets copyright the wheel or the sundial while were at it ? I would be a little more sympathetic towards Hasbro if Bayformers or Rescue Bots were being KOed because those lines represent people that are actually on the Hasbro payroll. But Hasbro is still getting rich off of G1 and isn't giving G1's creators a god damn penny. So I say screw Hasbro, let the KO's roll !!!

You guys seem to show more loyalty to the copyright holders than to the actual fiction itself. Just because something that relates to Transformers isn't endorsed by Hasbro, that doesn't make it any less awesome. If I win Powerball next week and buy the Transformers brand from Hasbro, will you guys be as loyal to me just because I got a bunch of copyright papers in a vault ? Should I flaunt my 30 year old copyrights and act like I created G1 while it's real creators cant even put food on the table ? If a toy designer defects from Hasbro and starts a 3rd party company, do you guys consider him a traitor ? Where does this silly loyalty to one company end ? Im a Transformers fan, not a Hasbro fan. Let that be known. And the Transformers universe is big enough for everyone to add something to the fiction whether the stockholders likes it or not.

Yet you have no qualms about buying KO's of semi recent 3rd party originals. How is that helping out the "little guy"?

Rated X wrote:But Hasbro is still getting rich off of G1 and isn't giving G1's creators a god damn penny.

Evidence please.

You guys seem to show more loyalty to the copyright holders than to the actual fiction itself.

Prove it.

If I win Powerball next week and buy the Transformers brand from Hasbro, will you guys be as loyal to me just because I got a bunch of copyright papers in a vault ?

If it's Transformers related and interests me, sure!

Should I flaunt my 30 year old copyrights and act like I created G1 while it's real creators cant even put food on the table ?

No seriously, I'd love to see you back this one up with factual evidence.

If a toy designer defects from Hasbro and starts a 3rd party company, do you guys consider him a traitor ?

No. They can do whatever they want. Why ask such a silly question?

Where does this silly loyalty to one company end ?

You just don't get it do you? Read what I'm typing here, this is my personal opinion, others may share it, others may not.

I WANT MY COLLECTION TO BE COMPRISED OF LEGITIMATE HASBRO AND OR TAKARA TOMY MANUFACTURED TRANSFORMERS.

Are you now saying my collecting preferences are silly? Who are YOU to say that? I don't criticize YOU for how you choose to collect, so what gives YOU the right to criticize ME?

Im a Transformers fan, not a Hasbro fan. Let that be known.

We know. You've made that point perfectly clear. Oddly enough, no one's disputing it.

And the Transformers universe is big enough for everyone to add something to the fiction whether the stockholders likes it or not.

What exactly are KO companies adding to the universe? They're not doing anything but taking existing figures and creating their own molds then creating their own figures which tend to have lower quality and passing them off as legitimate TF's, often at the same price as a legitimate figure.

So please, once again, like I have asked you to provide plenty of evidence for all your other points, explain how a KO company adds anything to the TF Universe.

[quote="I guess I’m gonna have to agree to disagree with you guys on KO’s and IP. You guys just seem to respect Hasbro corporate interests a lot more than I do. I respect the creators of G1, not the current IP owners. I doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand why I feel that way. It’s like if a recipe gets passed down for generations and is kept a family secret for 100 years. Sure the great grandson might own it, but don’t act like he created it. He’s just a stakeholder, nothing more. Some of you people act like the current Hasbro executives created G1. I don’t sugarcoat it. They’re 30 year old characters. My loyalty lies with the characters and they’re fiction, not the guys who profit off of it.

But if you hate KO’s so much do get caught being a hypocrite. When your car needs new air filter, go straight to the dealer and spend 50 bucks. Don’t get caught going to Auto Zone and supporting those horrible knockoffs. And when your printer runs out of ink, don’t be a criminal and refill your ink cartridge for 8 bucks at Walgreens. That’s cheating HP the inventors of the color printer. Make sure you pay them $21.99 to show you’re support for the corporation.[/quote]
Horrible analogies, These ko are copyright violating. They are making the exact replicates down to the most important thing, the name.

A KO GOES AGAINST EVERYTHING WHAT A TRUE COLLECTOR STANDS FOR. Buying a ko is selfish and doing so much harm to transformers nation cause they are trying to make the copies better than the original.

Rated X wrote:I guess I’m gonna have to agree to disagree with you guys on KO’s and IP. You guys just seem to respect Hasbro corporate interests a lot more than I do. I respect the creators of G1, not the current IP owners. I doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand why I feel that way. It’s like if a recipe gets passed down for generations and is kept a family secret for 100 years. Sure the great grandson might own it, but don’t act like he created it. He’s just a stakeholder, nothing more. Some of you people act like the current Hasbro executives created G1. I don’t sugarcoat it. They’re 30 year old characters. My loyalty lies with the characters and they’re fiction, not the guys who profit off of it.

But if you hate KO’s so much do get caught being a hypocrite. When your car needs new air filter, go straight to the dealer and spend 50 bucks. Don’t get caught going to Auto Zone and supporting those horrible knockoffs. And when your printer runs out of ink, don’t be a criminal and refill your ink cartridge for 8 bucks at Walgreens. That’s cheating HP the inventors of the color printer. Make sure you pay them $21.99 to show you’re support for the corporation.

Horrible anqlogies, these ko are copyright violation. They are making the exact replicas down to the most important thing, the name.

A KO GOES AGAINST EVERYTHING WHAT A TRUE COLLECTOR STANDS FOR. Buying a ko is selfish and is doing so much harm to Transformers universe cause they aee trying to make the imatations better the the original, and thats a big no go!

Im still buying these guess that makes me a bad person , i think people need to get a grip with all this ko shit . Its not gonna stop anytime soon get used to it.

Autobot Genocide wrote:Im still buying these guess that makes me a bad person , i think people need to get a grip with all this ko shit . Its not gonna stop anytime soon get used to it.

Neither will Medicare fraud, but hey as long as it's going to happen we all might as well pile on. I mean there is fraud and then there is fraud, a little fraud has never hurt anyone .... Right... Right?

Rated X wrote:You guys are just way too sensitive. What you guys consider "stolen" property I consider to be community property. Maybe back in the 80's I would have defended Hasbro and said KO's and 3rd parties were stealing Hasbro's property. But it's 2013 and G1 is 30 years old ! Lets copyright the wheel or the sundial while were at it ? I would be a little more sympathetic towards Hasbro if Bayformers or Rescue Bots were being KOed because those lines represent people that are actually on the Hasbro payroll. But Hasbro is still getting rich off of G1 and isn't giving G1's creators a god damn penny. So I say screw Hasbro, let the KO's roll !!!

You guys seem to show more loyalty to the copyright holders than to the actual fiction itself. Just because something that relates to Transformers isn't endorsed by Hasbro, that doesn't make it any less awesome. If I win Powerball next week and buy the Transformers brand from Hasbro, will you guys be as loyal to me just because I got a bunch of copyright papers in a vault ? Should I flaunt my 30 year old copyrights and act like I created G1 while it's real creators cant even put food on the table ? If a toy designer defects from Hasbro and starts a 3rd party company, do you guys consider him a traitor ? Where does this silly loyalty to one company end ? Im a Transformers fan, not a Hasbro fan. Let that be known. And the Transformers universe is big enough for everyone to add something to the fiction whether the stockholders likes it or not.

Firstly, NONE OF THIS relates to this KO. This KO is based off a recent toy, not a 30 year old one. The current MP line is driven by supply and demand like anything else. If you undercut Takara like this we may not get any new MPs. Which isn't really good for the fans or those creatives behind each MP either.

You paint a lot of people who disagree with you with a VERY broad brush. Just based on where I post here I think you know what I've been collecting so far. Hint hint: we're in the 3rd Party forum! My attachment to Hasbro/Takara is a lot like yours: to the characters and universe and not necessarily to the company that owns it. Bu that doesn't mean I'm going to give the middle finger tothe company that owns it either! If they make something I want, sure I'll buy it. I don't see why you give a 3rd party company credit for making a toy you like, but not Hasbro/Takara (and we're in a thread about Takara being screwed over, if there's a difference to you).

I also find it odd that you SAY you support toy designers, but are VERY willing to buy KOs. I mean, KO companies don't pay those designers at all. Meanwhile it's known that the guy who made G1 Starscream in the Diaclone days worked on MP Starscream. So he's still employed at Takara (or at least was at the time of it's development). So how would buying a KO of Starscream support him? You're not buying from the company that either has employed him or is still employing him. You're just assuming designers have been tossed aside, but with the guy behind Starscream we KNOW that's not true.

In theory Takara and Hasbro knows which of it's designs are successful based on sales. So buying a recent KO helps them ... how? "Screw you Hasbro/Takara" doesn't help the creators find work. If anything it gives the message that the toys they helped to make don't sell and that the adult collector's market isn't profitable to sell to.

Really, underneath it all you just seem to wan to get the cheapest version available. And that's fine. I get that and it's a valid point of view. But the anti-corperate pro-creative angle is nonsensical. You get that creatives are hired by these corporate giants, right? And that if the giant falls, so do all the creatives you say you support. By saying "screw you Takara" you're also saying "screw you" to all the designers it's employed to make the figures you like.

Others have refuted most of the other points in your last post well enough for me, I think. But I just wanted to take this one on:

Rated X wrote:You guys are just way too sensitive. What you guys consider "stolen" property I consider to be community property.

So intellectual property laws are subjective now? And I can ignore them if my personal opinions happen to be at odds with them? How enlightening. I am sure that would stand up in a court of law.

----------------------------------

This is why I think people who whole heartedly support knock-offs and bootlegs are douches who basically troll fandom. (And also why I really wish that there were separate forums for third party products and knock-off products, so I could avoid such trolling.) Their arguments are based solely on entitlement, and a disregard for law.

I'm not going to say I never felt too entitled towards a toy. I'm sure all anyone needs to do is look at the threads about the SDCC Metroplex, in the time just after it was available on Hasbro's website for 4.2 seconds, to see me throw a major bitch fest. But you know what? It took a day or so, but I got over myself and decided to settle for the retail version. KO fans will never get over themselves. Hence they are little better then trolls.

And before someone like Rated X calls me a hypocrite by pointing out the evidence on my own website (assuming he is even aware of it) I'll admit I bought some knock offs once... But (a) they were at least not knock-offs that could be confused for the real thing, (b) I was under no illusion that it was right for me to be doing so, didn't go screaming it was right to the world, and felt not quite kosher about making the purchase, and (c) feel quite confident I'm not going to ever be making such a purchase again.

So does that make me a hypocrite? Maybe. Or maybe it makes me the recovered alcoholic who now goes around to schools warning kids against the perils of drunk driving. Don't know which, I just wanted to put it on the record myself before anyone tried using it against me as a surprise.

I tried it once, knew it was wrong, and am not about to do it again.

The KO supporters do it as often as they want, don't care about (or in some cases even acknowledge) the illegality of the product, and happily proclaim as much to the universe. They will never change their minds, because they feel they should be entitled to whatever they want and damn the consequences.

And so, I shall end this post by acknowledging that this is a pointless, unwinnable internet argument (where one side is right, and the other side refuses to concede the slightest possibility that they might just be wrong even when presented with evidence and can in no way refute it) and thus including what every such argument eventually needs: stupid, pointless, captioned pictures.

To the knock-off supporters, I say:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:(...a lot of good stuff while I was likely in the middle of typing up the rant that was my last post.)

For which I applaud you, sir. Good show.

Should I continue posting such news/articles? It seems to be putting our group at odds with each other...

daimchoc wrote:Should I continue posting such news/articles? It seems to be putting our group at odds with each other...

I was thinking to myself how sad it is that knock-offs get to be front page news, where as original third party products get shunned and ignored. Yes, they are front page news under the banner of, "Buyer Beware," and with a pretext of, "This thing exists, be aware of it when buying so you can be careful that you get the legitimate version." But in reality, to those who don't care about legitimacy it is just advertising that the knock off exists, so they can save a buck and go buy that one now -- to hell with the Has/Tak version!

It is a double edged sword. I agree people who want to avoid the knock offs need to be aware that they exist. But Seibertron.com reporting them as front page news almost seems to give them a legitimacy that this website specifically withholds from other, less questionable third party items. ("If you come up with an accessory to complement an official toy, or an original toy that homages a Transformers character, you don't exist to us! But if you blatantly knock off a Transformers toy, well then, this way to our front page!")

It really is a no win situation. Legitimate collectors need to be aware of knock-off products to avoid. But you can't draw attention to such products without (unintentionally) promoting them. Sadly, the only winners are the knock-off producers.

(I suppose it doesn't help that you posted a link to where the knock-off can be bought. There's a difference between saying, "Careful! This exists!" and saying, "And here's where you can buy it!")

My putting the link just shows that it is real. Next time I should probably just say that MP-05 is getting KO'd and you'd all just believe it, right.

daimchoc wrote:My putting the link just shows that it is real. Next time I should probably just say that MP-05 is getting KO'd and you'd all just believe it, right.

It's just information on a toy, what people decide to do with it is up to them.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:

Rated X wrote:You guys are just way too sensitive. What you guys consider "stolen" property I consider to be community property. Maybe back in the 80's I would have defended Hasbro and said KO's and 3rd parties were stealing Hasbro's property. But it's 2013 and G1 is 30 years old ! Lets copyright the wheel or the sundial while were at it ? I would be a little more sympathetic towards Hasbro if Bayformers or Rescue Bots were being KOed because those lines represent people that are actually on the Hasbro payroll. But Hasbro is still getting rich off of G1 and isn't giving G1's creators a god damn penny. So I say screw Hasbro, let the KO's roll !!!

You guys seem to show more loyalty to the copyright holders than to the actual fiction itself. Just because something that relates to Transformers isn't endorsed by Hasbro, that doesn't make it any less awesome. If I win Powerball next week and buy the Transformers brand from Hasbro, will you guys be as loyal to me just because I got a bunch of copyright papers in a vault ? Should I flaunt my 30 year old copyrights and act like I created G1 while it's real creators cant even put food on the table ? If a toy designer defects from Hasbro and starts a 3rd party company, do you guys consider him a traitor ? Where does this silly loyalty to one company end ? Im a Transformers fan, not a Hasbro fan. Let that be known. And the Transformers universe is big enough for everyone to add something to the fiction whether the stockholders likes it or not.

Firstly, NONE OF THIS relates to this KO. This KO is based off a recent toy, not a 30 year old one. The current MP line is driven by supply and demand like anything else. If you undercut Takara like this we may not get any new MPs. Which isn't really good for the fans or those creatives behind each MP either.

You paint a lot of people who disagree with you with a VERY broad brush. Just based on where I post here I think you know what I've been collecting so far. Hint hint: we're in the 3rd Party forum! My attachment to Hasbro/Takara is a lot like yours: to the characters and universe and not necessarily to the company that owns it. Bu that doesn't mean I'm going to give the middle finger tothe company that owns it either! If they make something I want, sure I'll buy it. I don't see why you give a 3rd party company credit for making a toy you like, but not Hasbro/Takara (and we're in a thread about Takara being screwed over, if there's a difference to you).

I also find it odd that you SAY you support toy designers, but are VERY willing to buy KOs. I mean, KO companies don't pay those designers at all. Meanwhile it's known that the guy who made G1 Starscream in the Diaclone days worked on MP Starscream. So he's still employed at Takara (or at least was at the time of it's development). So how would buying a KO of Starscream support him? You're not buying from the company that either has employed him or is still employing him. You're just assuming designers have been tossed aside, but with the guy behind Starscream we KNOW that's not true.

In theory Takara and Hasbro knows which of it's designs are successful based on sales. So buying a recent KO helps them ... how? "Screw you Hasbro/Takara" doesn't help the creators find work. If anything it gives the message that the toys they helped to make don't sell and that the adult collector's market isn't profitable to sell to.

Really, underneath it all you just seem to wan to get the cheapest version available. And that's fine. I get that and it's a valid point of view. But the anti-corperate pro-creative angle is nonsensical. You get that creatives are hired by these corporate giants, right? And that if the giant falls, so do all the creatives you say you support. By saying "screw you Takara" you're also saying "screw you" to all the designers it's employed to make the figures you like.

The MP line may be a recent line, but the characters it uses ARE 30 years old. I get you’re point. The corporate machine is needed to keep the toys coming. But if Hasbro ever falls, that doesn’t necessarily mean the Transformers brand will fall. Someone might bring it back, officially or unofficially. As long as there’s money to be made someone’s going to cash in. As long as there are hardcore G1 fans, there will be 3rd parties. And as long as the prices of some figures remain extremely high, there will be KO’s. Some original G1 designers are still on Hasbro’s payroll. Others are not. Some are probably dead. Some are probably going through hard times. If you look at some of the original Sunbow voice actors, they’re not receiving any royalties for being a major part of G1. Granted they’re not toy designers or artists, but they are a good example of G1 founding fathers that aren’t receiving royalties for life every time their respective character gets a new toy. I’m fairly confident the same thing goes for many former G1 toy designers and concept artists. All that’s left is the corporate machine and a piece of paper that’s says “we paid you back in the 80’s for your work no matter how much it’s worth today, so deal with it”. That’s the point I’m trying to make as why “IP infringement” is such a joke. The corporation that is crying foul hung many of their innovators out to dry a long time ago. Hasbro IP infringement is pure karma 30 years in the making. I’m sure those who saw their personal innovations make billions and only got a $1000 check back in 1986 to show for it laugh at Hasbro’s IP infringement claims. I wouldn’t blame them.

Rated X wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:

Rated X wrote:You guys are just way too sensitive. What you guys consider "stolen" property I consider to be community property. Maybe back in the 80's I would have defended Hasbro and said KO's and 3rd parties were stealing Hasbro's property. But it's 2013 and G1 is 30 years old ! Lets copyright the wheel or the sundial while were at it ? I would be a little more sympathetic towards Hasbro if Bayformers or Rescue Bots were being KOed because those lines represent people that are actually on the Hasbro payroll. But Hasbro is still getting rich off of G1 and isn't giving G1's creators a god damn penny. So I say screw Hasbro, let the KO's roll !!!

You guys seem to show more loyalty to the copyright holders than to the actual fiction itself. Just because something that relates to Transformers isn't endorsed by Hasbro, that doesn't make it any less awesome. If I win Powerball next week and buy the Transformers brand from Hasbro, will you guys be as loyal to me just because I got a bunch of copyright papers in a vault ? Should I flaunt my 30 year old copyrights and act like I created G1 while it's real creators cant even put food on the table ? If a toy designer defects from Hasbro and starts a 3rd party company, do you guys consider him a traitor ? Where does this silly loyalty to one company end ? Im a Transformers fan, not a Hasbro fan. Let that be known. And the Transformers universe is big enough for everyone to add something to the fiction whether the stockholders likes it or not.

Firstly, NONE OF THIS relates to this KO. This KO is based off a recent toy, not a 30 year old one. The current MP line is driven by supply and demand like anything else. If you undercut Takara like this we may not get any new MPs. Which isn't really good for the fans or those creatives behind each MP either.

You paint a lot of people who disagree with you with a VERY broad brush. Just based on where I post here I think you know what I've been collecting so far. Hint hint: we're in the 3rd Party forum! My attachment to Hasbro/Takara is a lot like yours: to the characters and universe and not necessarily to the company that owns it. Bu that doesn't mean I'm going to give the middle finger tothe company that owns it either! If they make something I want, sure I'll buy it. I don't see why you give a 3rd party company credit for making a toy you like, but not Hasbro/Takara (and we're in a thread about Takara being screwed over, if there's a difference to you).

I also find it odd that you SAY you support toy designers, but are VERY willing to buy KOs. I mean, KO companies don't pay those designers at all. Meanwhile it's known that the guy who made G1 Starscream in the Diaclone days worked on MP Starscream. So he's still employed at Takara (or at least was at the time of it's development). So how would buying a KO of Starscream support him? You're not buying from the company that either has employed him or is still employing him. You're just assuming designers have been tossed aside, but with the guy behind Starscream we KNOW that's not true.

In theory Takara and Hasbro knows which of it's designs are successful based on sales. So buying a recent KO helps them ... how? "Screw you Hasbro/Takara" doesn't help the creators find work. If anything it gives the message that the toys they helped to make don't sell and that the adult collector's market isn't profitable to sell to.

Really, underneath it all you just seem to wan to get the cheapest version available. And that's fine. I get that and it's a valid point of view. But the anti-corperate pro-creative angle is nonsensical. You get that creatives are hired by these corporate giants, right? And that if the giant falls, so do all the creatives you say you support. By saying "screw you Takara" you're also saying "screw you" to all the designers it's employed to make the figures you like.

The MP line may be a recent line, but the characters it uses ARE 30 years old. I get you’re point. The corporate machine is needed to keep the toys coming. But if Hasbro ever falls, that doesn’t necessarily mean the Transformers brand will fall. Someone might bring it back, officially or unofficially. As long as there’s money to be made someone’s going to cash in. As long as there are hardcore G1 fans, there will be 3rd parties. And as long as the prices of some figures remain extremely high, there will be KO’s. Some original G1 designers are still on Hasbro’s payroll. Others are not. Some are probably dead. Some are probably going through hard times. If you look at some of the original Sunbow voice actors, they’re not receiving any royalties for being a major part of G1. Granted they’re not toy designers or artists, but they are a good example of G1 founding fathers that aren’t receiving royalties for life every time their respective character gets a new toy. I’m fairly confident the same thing goes for many former G1 toy designers and concept artists. All that’s left is the corporate machine and a piece of paper that’s says “we paid you back in the 80’s for your work no matter how much it’s worth today, so deal with it”. That’s the point I’m trying to make as why “IP infringement” is such a joke. The corporation that is crying foul hung many of their innovators out to dry a long time ago. Hasbro IP infringement is pure karma 30 years in the making. I’m sure those who saw their personal innovations make billions and only got a $1000 check back in 1986 to show for it laugh at Hasbro’s IP infringement claims. I wouldn’t blame them.

Hey, if you think MPs are overpriced and prefer the cheapest option that's fine. But you're NOT pro-creator here. By not buying a recent toy officially you're not supporting the guys who made it, directly or indirectly. It's very easy to say "I'm pro creator" when it involves words, but I notice you weren't too concerned with a creator's jobs when you first head about this KO. Your first thought was to your own pocketbook. Again, that's a legit point of view, but it's NOT pro-creator. You're a fan of the G1 universe and characters. But you're NOT pro-creator because you're NOT supporting creators by buying official products.

You're throwing a lot of hyperbole around - that Hasbro/Takara doesn't support it's creators ... how the hell would you know? Where's this story of a disenfranchised creator coming form? Because it sounds like something you just made up based on your own view of big business. But you know what? KO producers are also big business! You hate Hasbro for ripping off an imaginary creator in a made up story, but KO manufacturers are worse because they don't even hire creators at any time - they just copy their designs. Yet you wholeheartedly support them while hating on a company that actually employs them. You hate on one big business but favour another all while screwing over creators you claim loyalty to.

You like the TF characters and universe. You don't care who makes the toys based on them. You'll buy what's cheapest. You're about as pro creator for buying a KO as you are for downloading an MP3 for free instead of using iTunes. You might be a big fan of the song, but don't claim you support the artist. Being pro-creator involves more than being anti-corperate.

You know the only way these would make it into my home would be if I had the originals and thought that they where super awesome to play about with.
So that way I would have my originals on display and the crappy cheap KOs to play with. But these are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to expensive either way, I may as well just buy doubles of the originals.

Also to the guys claiming that the original G1 toy designers aren't supported and such, they where payed for those designs, they knew full well that they wouldn't get to keep the designs and that the companies would get the credit for them. Kinda like a construction worker doesn't get to keep the house he helped build.

On top of that, a good deal of those designers are still around in the industry today and are actually aking to celebrities in the toy designing world, some of them are still employed by Takara. MP Starscream? Designed by the same guy who designed the original toy.

And I love how my last comment in this discussion was proven correct once more.

Why not just make a hasbro ko thread for people to complain and tell the same argument every time hasbro gets knocked off then tally up the same points made every time this happens to see how repetitive this is. ?

Yotsuyasan wrote:

daimchoc wrote:Should I continue posting such news/articles? It seems to be putting our group at odds with each other...

I was thinking to myself how sad it is that knock-offs get to be front page news, where as original third party products get shunned and ignored. Yes, they are front page news under the banner of, "Buyer Beware," and with a pretext of, "This thing exists, be aware of it when buying so you can be careful that you get the legitimate version." But in reality, to those who don't care about legitimacy it is just advertising that the knock off exists, so they can save a buck and go buy that one now -- to hell with the Has/Tak version!

It is a double edged sword. I agree people who want to avoid the knock offs need to be aware that they exist. But Seibertron.com reporting them as front page news almost seems to give them a legitimacy that this website specifically withholds from other, less questionable third party items. ("If you come up with an accessory to complement an official toy, or an original toy that homages a Transformers character, you don't exist to us! But if you blatantly knock off a Transformers toy, well then, this way to our front page!")

It really is a no win situation. Legitimate collectors need to be aware of knock-off products to avoid. But you can't draw attention to such products without (unintentionally) promoting them. Sadly, the only winners are the knock-off producers.

(I suppose it doesn't help that you posted a link to where the knock-off can be bought. There's a difference between saying, "Careful! This exists!" and saying, "And here's where you can buy it!")

You bring up a very good point. The whole "Buyer Beware" concept can be interpreted as advertising to those who are on a budget and want to save a buck. And negative publicity sells like hotcakes. Some people honestly dont care about a stamp that reads "Takara/Tomy" on the inner right leg of the figure. They just want something that looks really cool at a great price. Theres no ethics rulebook to collecting. You collect what makes you happy. And if something that looks cool at a great price makes you happy, then you are just as much a legitiment collector as those who bash KO's. Youre just collecting something different from them. And it irks some of them that youre getting the same sense of satisfaction for half the price they paid. High quality KO's exist. And they dont exist because of Hasbro's kid oriented customer base. They exist because the hardcore collector community is extremly divided on collecting ethics. I may be one of the few visible supporters of KO's on this site. But just a few buyers wouldnt justify their existance. Alot of people are buying high quality KO's. If they werent, Chinese companies wouldnt waste theyre time and money producing them. And this website unintentionaly glorifies KO's by front paging them. That only increases the amount of buyers. Im just one drop in a huge bucket. I wonder how many lurkers who dont post here are buying the KO's as well ? There must be plenty in my opinion.

There's probably quite a few who are pro KO, but I doubt there's as many who are anti-Hasbro/Takara. Not caring who makes a toy is a little different than being overjoyed when HasTak get screwed.

It might be beneficial to just make one monster thread for KO threads. But it might make searches in Google more difficult. In theory you could find that there's a KO available by just searching for the product in Google under the current system.

Rated X wrote:You bring up a very good point.

Ha ha, why is it I feel dirty when you agree with me on something in the context of a knock off discussion?

But seriously... I find Seibertron.com's anti-anything not officially licensed stance unsupportable and, since they themselves constantly break it, hypocritical. How often are the following front paged?

-Stories warning against knock-offs (and thus unintentionally promoting them)
-Press releases from retailers that, while selling official products, also contain promotions for tons of third party items as well. (And also many items not at all related to Transformers.)
-Reprolabels updates. (Don't get me wrong, I love Reprolabels! But official, they are not.)

For a website that claims to be all about only officially licensed products, that's a lot of non-official stuff that makes the front page.

If the "only officially licensed Transformers" ideal is so important to the powers that be here, any talk of Reprolabels should be off the front page and shunted off to the third party forum, and retailer press releases should be edited to only mention relevant products.

As for knock-offs, as I mentioned previously that is something of a double edged sword. Collectors of the legitimate products need to be aware of them, after all. But such write-ups could be more limited... Perhaps just mention the product exists, and if possible what some ways to tell the real from the knock off is. And put a bold disclaimer against the buying of such products. I'd even go so far as to say they should avoid linking such news articles to discussion threads in the forum, so as to avoid anything on the front page connecting directly to things that might say, "I'm buying one!" or, "You can get_one_here for $42.64!" If someone starts a discussion thread separately, fine. But don't have it connected to a front page news article.

Can they even make a news thread without a discussion thread? Maybe just locking it immediately would be a good idea.

I can see why they wouldn't want to censor their sponsors. Otherwise .... they wouldn't have any sponsors!

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I can see why they wouldn't want to censor their sponsors. Otherwise .... they wouldn't have any sponsors!

Oh, I know it isn't going to happen. I'm just saying that by either not doing so, or by not selecting sponsors that only sell officially licensed Transformers products, it shows (in my view) a somewhat hypocritical view. It says to me, "Our website is only about officially licensed Transformers products... Unless you throw money at us! Then the website can be about whatever you want!"

I don't expect things to change, mind you. Although it would perhaps be more palatable if retailer press releases were presented in a way that made it more clear they were a sponsored post, and not disguised as a news item.

Their latest BBTS sponsor update also talks about the Walking Dead DVDs and Ion Man. 3rd party stuff, under the site's official view, can be lumped in with that without being labelled hypocritical, I think. Not really a big deal for me; I've learned lo love TFW for 3rd party news.