The Energon Pub

Something that may help balance out the factions would be to make some differences between the factions other than alt modes (and all that entails). We could get really involved but some simple differences could help with the feel of differences. Though if this idea got done we would have to be careful not to overdo it.

So what does everyone think of the basic idea and its feasibility at being added to the game at a later time?

Autobot/Decepticons
Maybe a ghost strength point. This could represent a variety of things, the mechanical advantage that being 3+ times larger (longer limbs,more mass) on average, and even that they have raw power (much less effient)in thier power systems. That last point (if str continues to help all weapons) can represent a variety of components that require space.

We can take the approach (my personal viewpoint I admit) that the beastformers are more advanced and so can reach approximently the same power range with MUCH smaller and more effient bodies but there are tradeoffs.


Maximals/Predicons

I lean toward several smaller bonuses.
These factions could have lower CR costs. Maybe have the ability to heal slowly without the CR. Get bonuses on certain missions that a small size would help. Maybe lower energon costs on something else such as armor installation either including the cost of armor or not I can see it either way.

People who are constantly haveing energon issues may prefer haveing a slightly less powerful character but haveing less of an issue staying in the black.

I really don't think there needs to be any in-game differences. Aside from the nightmare of trying to balance one types bonuses against another, there are also bots that cross the lines of what you'd expect for both - such as energy efficient Bumblebee, or Optimus Primal when he had his Optimal Optimus form, where he was nearly as big as Optimus Prime. This is also ignoring the fact that we Maximals have beast modes that would make us nearly as big as, or even bigger than, most vehicle mode TFs, such as elephants and whales. People seem to forget there were large-sized Maximals and Predacons.

i don't like this. the difference has to be exactly equal or 1 faction will get an unfair advantage. additionally canon shows some of the beast formery stuff(like transtech) are huge more g1 than best, and likewise the micromasters are most beast than G1 according to your idea.

Mkall's size idea is better and much more balanced way of doing this, and doesn't pigeonhole.

I like this idea. Simply put it gives people something to shoot for when they decide their faction.

Why not make it so that Maximals and Predacons have a cheaper CR cost when they start off at levels 1-3? Why not give the Autobots and Decepticons more alt modes available for levels 1-3?

These are things that could be implemented. I'm not saying that the differences need to be massive, but as it stands now, I have no real reason to go Pred. And I'm not going Maximal or Autobot either. Unless, there is something out there that can be offered per faction.

This is something that could go a long way to eliminating the outnumbered-ness of the game. Give people an incentive to join a particular faction. Its a role-play element that is in other games--i.e. wizard has more magic power than a brawler, archer is faster than a berserker, warrior has higher hit points than a theif.

Word.

I agree with Tammuz (surprise surprise)
Though I'm unfamiliar with Mkalls idea... damn I need to get caught up


Getting things to balance has always been an issue with the game... this would just be one more problem unless it was done exactly right.

Maybe once V2 gets rolling (and we're all bored again ) this can be looked into more throughly, for now it's just another complication.

Tammuz wrote:i don't like this. the difference has to be exactly equal or 1 faction will get an unfair advantage. additionally canon shows some of the beast formery stuff(like transtech) are huge more g1 than best, and likewise the micromasters are most beast than G1 according to your idea.

Mkall's size idea is better and much more balanced way of doing this, and doesn't pigeonhole.

There are ways to make noticable differences and maintain game balance.

That said, I don't nessicarily agree with his idea.

However, depending on how things are going to run in V2, something may need to be done to balance the game because of numbers alone.

I don't see where giving the Bots/Cons a strength bonus and only giving the Maximals/Preds a CR bonus (or cheaper cost) is balancing the game.

And like Rat Convoy said there are quite a few Maximals that are as big, if not bigger, then some of the Bots/Cons. So where is there "ghost strength"? And how would smaller Bots/Cons (Bumblebee, Frenzy, Rumble...) get "ghost strength" when they are some of the weakest on their respective sides?

Why not give the Autobots and Decepticons more alt modes available for levels 1-3?

Not seeing why this would even come up. Why would ANY one side get more alts then any of the others???

indeed

My suggestions were just ideas. I quite understand the game balance issue (I've helped set up enough home brewed games for that) and didn't expect this to be a do now kind of thing. Maybe something to look at for down the road, OS said he is writeing the code in such a way that adding stuff would be "easy". So "I don't want it", "I think that's a silly idea", "it would be too hard to impliment" and "I don't want to run into the problem of game balance and all that involves" are IMO the only counters to this idea not that doesn't make since.

I have watched both the Beast Wars and Beast Machines cartoon. I have seen an issue or two of beastformer comics so don't know about some of the random stuff that got added in the comic versions so I apologize if I'm missing stuff.
Ok, I admit that there are some Auto/Decepti that are the same size as some of the Maxi/Pred and vice versa but those are exceptions. When talking about those groups on average alot of the stuff in beastwars goes out the window. The transwarp and aborbing sparks thing were beastwars stuff and supposed to be new not standard stuff. Ok for this game we can assume that it has spread or come up with seperately. However the GIANT transformers in beastwars would be about normal sized for a G1 Autobot. Most of those guys turned into normal sized animals and did no/little mass shifting. We are talking averages here like a racial templete not that one guy. To use an example from D&D ,the average half-orc is stronger and the max is higher than a human, but it is easy to have a human stronger than most half-orcs.

Bun-Bun wrote:I agree with Tammuz (surprise surprise)
Though I'm unfamiliar with Mkalls idea... damn I need to get caught up

basically it was a way of working size into the equasion; an addittional modifer would be added i nwould CnP it from the supoport forum but i don't have acces to it anymore...

Tammuz wrote:i nwould CnP it from the supoport forum but i don't have acces to it anymore...

All you have to do is ask OS. We still need you.

Mkall wrote:I've always toyed with how to make mech size work, but couldn't figure out how get all of the ratios to work right. Now it's all a numbers game.

We assign a mech a size number based on percentage:
Citybot (Fort Max): 2
Gestalt (Defensor): 1.5
Heavy Mech (Grimlock): 1.2
Nermal Mech (Prowl): 1
Light Mech (Bumblebee): 0.8
Micromaster (Big Daddy): 0.5

This makes costs a lot easier to compute, say CR = 100 x (level + 1) x (whatever else) x size.

A level 2 Normal Mech would cost 300 to repair, but a light mech would only cost 240 and a citybot would cost 600. Same deal for armour, and maybe even weapons.

now in the battle is where this gets really handy. Let's say Prowl was fighting Grimlock. Grimlock fires his weapon at prowl.
1) Does Prowl dodge?
(normal miss chance calculations) x (AttackerSize - TargetSize + 1) = (normal) x 1.2 = an additional 20% chance to miss, which isn't much considering the other factors involved
2) How much damage does Grimlock do if he hits?
(normal damage calculations) x (AttackerSize - TargetSize + 1) = (normal x 1.2 = 20% more damage. 20% may seem like a lot, but let's say that Grimmy's gun deals 32% damage add another 20% to that and it gets boosted to 38% (38.4 to be precise)

The same works in reverse too.
If Prowl attacked Grimlock, Grimlock would have a 20% chance less of dodging, but he would only take 80% of the intended damage.

I'll admit it's not perfect, but I had to get it out before sleep kicks in and I forget it all.

zorian wrote: However the GIANT transformers in beastwars would be about normal sized for a G1 Autobot. Most of those guys turned into normal sized animals and did no/little mass shifting.

See I didn't see them changing into nomal sized animals.If we go with megatron being the same size as a t-rex optimus primal wasn't realy smaller than him so he wouldn't be the size of an average gorilla more like the size of king kong.I only saw parts of it but in the one comic the G1 Predacons were the leaders of the Predacons and I thought they were all about the same size.

i think on TF scale Cheetor provides a very good arbitary value I recall a scene in the first episode where he runs past some gnu in cheetah form, megatron's a midget t-rex

none of the sizes in the show makes any sense anyway a raptor isn't any bigger than a human which dinobot is suposed to be but he is a lot bigger than the humans in beast wars. this could be debated either way for a long time I wish they would come out with some kind of offical size chart or something

Tammuz wrote:i think on TF scale Cheetor provides a very good arbitary value I recall a scene in the first episode where he runs past some gnu in cheetah form, megatron's a midget t-rex

In the second season finale, Transmetal Megatron is revealed to be slightly larger than G1 Optimus Prime's head. Although I think they seriously over-exaggerated the size of the G1 Transformers just like Dreamwave comics did later.

In general though, I think Maximals and Predacons are on average supposed to be the size of Micromasters as they appeared in the old Marvel Comic, since they used the same technology. Looking at a page of the old comics right now, a US Air Force guy's chin is about level with Whisper's waist, which makes Whisper about 10ft tall maybe?

Although, the load screens for the BW Transmetals game gave height and weight of different characters, and IIRC, they claimed Silverbolt was 2 meters tall.

I can see the cas for a Ghost-point of strength for Mech Formers, in that, the biggest Beast Former is probably still going to be smaller than the biggest Mech Former, and the smallest Mech Former is probably still going to be bigger than the smallest Beast Former.

However, as others have said, I don't think we should screw around with the game mechanics that much. If I were building an entirely new game engine from the ground up that was much more RPG oriented, racial bonuses would be included, but I just don't think such a thing suits HMW well at all. A CR Bonus would be massively inferior to a Strength Bonus, unless you're talking about cutting CR time to 10 minutes, and even then, only hardcore players could take advantage of the bonus. The only good racial bonus I can think of for the Beast Formers is the one my wife and I talked about - doubled team roster with the ability to enter multiple team members into a single mission. And that's not going to happen.

Symbiote Spiderman14 wrote:none of the sizes in the show makes any sense anyway a raptor isn't any bigger than a human which dinobot is suposed to be but he is a lot bigger than the humans in beast wars.

Well, disregarding the fact those humans were probably 4ft tall or less, there's still the possibility that Dinobot was a Deinonychus rather than a Velociraptor, although that's what they called him in the show.

Ultimately though, the bots' size seemed to be dependent on the size they were to begin with, rather than the size of the beast mode they selected - hence Rattrap, Waspinator, Tarantulas, Scorponok, Black Arachnia, Inferno, Quickstrike and Rampage.

Cheetor is clearly shown to be the size of an actual Cheetah though, and Tigatron is also shown to be the size of an actual Tiger. I would guess that Beast Warriors prefer to choose beast modes that will be rrealistically sized when they transform, making their alternate forms passable camouflage, and the stasis-pods may also show the same preference by default, but it isn't a hard-and-fast rule.

Caelus wrote:

Symbiote Spiderman14 wrote:none of the sizes in the show makes any sense anyway a raptor isn't any bigger than a human which dinobot is suposed to be but he is a lot bigger than the humans in beast wars.

Well, disregarding the fact those humans were probably 4ft tall or less...

Velociraptor was still less than a foot tall.

Caelus wrote:... there's still the possibility that Dinobot was a Deinonychus rather than a Velociraptor...

I would say a Utahraptor is more likely, however...

Caelus wrote:Ultimately though, the bots' size seemed to be dependent on the size they were to begin with, rather than the size of the beast mode they selected

What you said.

Caelus wrote:Cheetor is clearly shown to be the size of an actual Cheetah though, and Tigatron is also shown to be the size of an actual Tiger. I would guess that Beast Warriors prefer to choose beast modes that will be realistically sized when they transform, making their alternate forms passable camouflage, and the stasis-pods may also show the same preference by default, but it isn't a hard-and-fast rule.

I think Cheetor and Tigatron's similar size with their animal counterparts is merely a coincidence. I think the animals that the warriors pick up depends on:
1) Whatever's available (especially true in the case of the stasis pods)
2) The preference of the warrior in question (the Predacons are probably the best example of this)
3) The preference of whomever scans the animal and passes the data on to the protoform (as was clearly the case with Blackarachnia)

I think disguise, especially in the case of the TV series, was of minor concern. Both Megatron and Primal state in the pilot that their beast forms are to protect them from the energon fields on the planet. And considering that both sides had "spark detectors," I think disguise was a moot point.

Most raptors were 2 or 3 feet. Dinobot was the same type of raptor they used in the JP book. The big female that lead all the others out.

Megatron was a baby T-Rex. Rhinox was also a undersized Rhino.

Waspinator was a Jurassicish Era insect. Back when there where huge insects all the time. Before the dinosaur mass extinction event.

If Whisper's chin was even with a Air force guy's head, that'd put Whisper arround 7.5-8.5 feet tall. Assuming the human was about 6ft.

If Silverbolt was 2 meters, that makes him roughly 6'7", or about 1/3rd the height of the Gen 1 transformers. Micromasters, by contrast, I think were supposed to be smaller then humans. Minispies were taller in general.

Absolute Zero wrote:Waspinator was a Jurassicish Era insect. Back when there where huge insects all the time. Before the dinosaur mass extinction event.

Giant insects appeared and died out long before the dinosaurs appeared. And I think wasps are a relatively recent addition. Also, it's very clear (especially after "The Agenda") that the Maximals and Predacons crashed on Earth four million years in the past; long after both giant insects and dinosaurs had been eradicated.

Again, it goes back to what Caelus said; the size of the character was determined by the size of the bot, not the animal.

Absolute Zero wrote:If Whisper's chin was even with a Air force guy's head, that'd put Whisper arround 7.5-8.5 feet tall. Assuming the human was about 6ft.

Looking at a page of the old comics right now, a US Air Force guy's chin is about level with Whisper's waist, which makes Whisper about 10ft tall maybe?

Waspinator was a Jurassicish Era insect. Back when there where huge insects all the time. Before the dinosaur mass extinction event.

There were never any flying insects that size - I'm pretty sure it's physically impossible actually.

Thunderscream wrote:I think Cheetor and Tigatron's similar size with their animal counterparts is merely a coincidence. I think the animals that the warriors pick up depends on:
1) Whatever's available (especially true in the case of the stasis pods)
2) The preference of the warrior in question (the Predacons are probably the best example of this)
3) The preference of whomever scans the animal and passes the data on to the protoform (as was clearly the case with Blackarachnia)

I think disguise, especially in the case of the TV series, was of minor concern. Both Megatron and Primal state in the pilot that their beast forms are to protect them from the energon fields on the planet. And considering that both sides had "spark detectors," I think disguise was a moot point.

See, in the case of Stasis-Pods, I was thinking the pod's AI would scan all available organisms in the environment - b/c usually there should be more than one - and then evaluate them on multiple factors to arrive at the optimal form.

Factors might be:

- Relative Mobility of the Creature - Land speed, climbing or burrowing ability, etc.
- Durability of the Creature - Does it have bony, scaly, or chitinous armor? Does it have good insulation for a range of environmental conditions? Can it consume a variety of natural foods to supplement its fuel intake in an emergency?
- Offensive cpabilities of the Creature - Claws, talons, teeth, sharp beak, or stingers and fangs capable of delivering venom.
- Sensory capabilities of the alternate mode - does the creature have sharper senses than the bot would have on its own?
- Compatibility - Do the bot's internal systems support the alternate mode's capabilities? Since all transformers with flying alts can fly in robot mode as well, I think flight cpapbility of the bot might be a prerequisite for having a flight capable robot mode. This would explain why Waspinator can fly though his wings wouldn't be able to support his weight on their own.
- Camouflage quality - Would the alternate mode allow the bot to pass as a local creature? (Low priority for Predacons)

Additionally, I would suspect that the Pod's AI is aware of the protoforms preprogrammed function, and therefore weights the scores it gives suitably.

This would also explain why none of the Maximals on Earth adopted plant-modes. Though plants were by far more available, they would consistently score below any animals available. Botanica presumably visited a planet with no animals, and therefore adopted the form of a plant, b/c there simply were no good alternatives.

Caelus wrote:

Waspinator was a Jurassicish Era insect. Back when there where huge insects all the time. Before the dinosaur mass extinction event.

There were never any flying insects that size - I'm pretty sure it's physically impossible actually.

I have the era wrong, but at one point, there where giant insects, including Dragonflies. A insects body is proportiante to the ammount of oxigen in the atmosphere... I watch a lot of Discovery/Animal Planet/History Channel.

Absolute Zero wrote:

Caelus wrote:

Waspinator was a Jurassicish Era insect. Back when there where huge insects all the time. Before the dinosaur mass extinction event.

There were never any flying insects that size - I'm pretty sure it's physically impossible actually.

I have the era wrong, but at one point, there where giant insects, including Dragonflies. A insects body is proportiante to the ammount of oxigen in the atmosphere... I watch a lot of Discovery/Animal Planet/History Channel.

I know there were giant insects, but nothing comparable to Waspinator.

The dragonflies were the biggest flying insects, and if you look at their configuration, they have enormous wings in proportion to their actual bodies.

Your forgetting that volume increases faster than surface area. Take a cube for example: if the cube is 2 inches on all side, its volume is 8 cubic inches. If you double the sides to 4 inches, its volume is 64 cubic inches. Mass of course is proportional to volume, so as the organism grows in size, its mass grows even faster. And the more massive something is, the better a flight system it requires to remain airborne.

On top of that, an insect's exoskeleton is incredibly heavy. Though it increases the insect's strength, as you scale the insect up, the weight of the skeleton increases faster than the strength boost it provides, so eventually the insect can't support its own weight.

Caelus wrote:Compatibility - Do the bot's internal systems support the alternate mode's capabilities? Since all transformers with flying alts can fly in robot mode as well, I think flight cpapbility of the bot might be a prerequisite for having a flight capable robot mode. This would explain why Waspinator can fly though his wings wouldn't be able to support his weight on their own.

That doesn't explain (outside of a RL explaination) how if Inferno could fly why his stasis pod scanned the form of an ant. Surely, in the lush environment his pod landed in (compared with the comparitive wastelands Tigatron and Airazor landed in), his pod could have certainly found a form better suited to him. And his pod landed in (relatively) excellent condition.

Thunderscream wrote:

Caelus wrote:Compatibility - Do the bot's internal systems support the alternate mode's capabilities? Since all transformers with flying alts can fly in robot mode as well, I think flight cpapbility of the bot might be a prerequisite for having a flight capable robot mode. This would explain why Waspinator can fly though his wings wouldn't be able to support his weight on their own.

That doesn't explain (outside of a RL explaination) how if Inferno could fly why his stasis pod scanned the form of an ant. Surely, in the lush environment his pod landed in (compared with the comparitive wastelands Tigatron and Airazor landed in), his pod could have certainly found a form better suited to him. And his pod landed in (relatively) excellent condition.

Good point. Perhaps his flight mechanic (a rotating super jet thing) was already set and the stasis pod couldn't work out how to tap that flight mode in Beast Mode?

Airrazor, Terrorsaur, and Waspinator seemed to have something like Anti-Grav (a la the G1 Decepticons) combined with conventional thrusters. In beast mode their wings would provide propulsion, and their Anti-Grav systems would compensate for their density (they are metal after all) and size. Optimus Primal, Inferno, and Transmetal Cheetor seemed to rely on pure thrust, with no Anti-Grav, and therefore wouldn't be able to fly in a conventional beast mode.*

One exception that did occur to me was Silverbolt - given the size of his wings, and their functionality in both modes, I think they were his sole means of flight.

*Coming up with this stuff is fun!

Caelus wrote:

Absolute Zero wrote:

Caelus wrote:

Waspinator was a Jurassicish Era insect. Back when there where huge insects all the time. Before the dinosaur mass extinction event.

There were never any flying insects that size - I'm pretty sure it's physically impossible actually.

I have the era wrong, but at one point, there where giant insects, including Dragonflies. A insects body is proportiante to the ammount of oxigen in the atmosphere... I watch a lot of Discovery/Animal Planet/History Channel.

I know there were giant insects, but nothing comparable to Waspinator.

The dragonflies were the biggest flying insects, and if you look at their configuration, they have enormous wings in proportion to their actual bodies.

Your forgetting that volume increases faster than surface area. Take a cube for example: if the cube is 2 inches on all side, its volume is 8 cubic inches. If you double the sides to 4 inches, its volume is 64 cubic inches. Mass of course is proportional to volume, so as the organism grows in size, its mass grows even faster. And the more massive something is, the better a flight system it requires to remain airborne.

On top of that, an insect's exoskeleton is incredibly heavy. Though it increases the insect's strength, as you scale the insect up, the weight of the skeleton increases faster than the strength boost it provides, so eventually the insect can't support its own weight.

There's a insect in existance now which breaks all the logical rules, the bumblebee, and is still able to fly. It's mass is... well, massive, compared to its wings. But, who's to say the weight of the exoskeleton would increase that rapidly? It's possible that it was either thinner then you're thinking, simular to a a bird's hollow bones, or there would easily be pockets of gas or something that would make the insect lighter. Nature will always find a way to accomplish what it wants.

lets just say because of the advanced technology of the maxis/preds, their scanners are able to resize/edit their alt modes to better suit the protoforms, while some bots and cons had to resize themselves everytime they transformed thus wasting energy.

or somthing like that.