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Hmm, interesting. It's tough for me to offer an in-depth opinion, since I've only read snippets and summaries of All Hail Megatron and earlier, but in the few cases I've seen people mention pre-MTMTE Drift and Windblade, Windblade's been positive and pre-MTMTE Drift's been negative. Not sure if he really added to the setting in the manner Windblade does, but I'm not going to write a mini-essay on something I haven't really read.ZeroWolf wrote:Do you people who hate windblade also hate Drift? While there is certainly important differences between the two, I think there's a lot connecting them.
RevTibe wrote:Fingers crossed there; I'm honestly not sure what to expect of that series in general, nevermind specific characters.ZeroWolf wrote:I think a big test for windblade will be in the machima cartoon.I've gotta agree on some design aspects being disappointing - although human tropes and archetypes underline almost every Transformer, I dislike it when those references become incredibly specific, like Windblade's kabuki-styled head (I suppose the pseudo-beatnik Jazz would be my upper limit for human-culture-specificity). Her fiction has warmed me up to the facepaint, but if I had the opportunity to redesign the character I'd likely tweak the hair and headdress.Prowl4 wrote:I don't like the design, I don't like how over exposed she is, I don't like how Optimus and other cybertronians look to, want and ask for her opinion, advice and essentially to lead. It devalues other cybertronians. Again she has way too much to, titan speaker, trying to over throw starscream and be a branch to other worlds while having a poor attitude. I hate the character.
I suppose we have different personal definitions in terms of character overexposure - for me, a reasonably justified newbie can be a very welcome addition, even if they take a significant portion of the spotlight. The Cityspeaker angle tying into the longstanding Titans plot threads and acting as a liaison to her homeland seemed like strong justification, believably tying this new character to preexisting plot points.
Dr Va'al wrote:RevTibe wrote:Fingers crossed there; I'm honestly not sure what to expect of that series in general, nevermind specific characters.ZeroWolf wrote:I think a big test for windblade will be in the machima cartoon.I've gotta agree on some design aspects being disappointing - although human tropes and archetypes underline almost every Transformer, I dislike it when those references become incredibly specific, like Windblade's kabuki-styled head (I suppose the pseudo-beatnik Jazz would be my upper limit for human-culture-specificity). Her fiction has warmed me up to the facepaint, but if I had the opportunity to redesign the character I'd likely tweak the hair and headdress.Prowl4 wrote:I don't like the design, I don't like how over exposed she is, I don't like how Optimus and other cybertronians look to, want and ask for her opinion, advice and essentially to lead. It devalues other cybertronians. Again she has way too much to, titan speaker, trying to over throw starscream and be a branch to other worlds while having a poor attitude. I hate the character.
I suppose we have different personal definitions in terms of character overexposure - for me, a reasonably justified newbie can be a very welcome addition, even if they take a significant portion of the spotlight. The Cityspeaker angle tying into the longstanding Titans plot threads and acting as a liaison to her homeland seemed like strong justification, believably tying this new character to preexisting plot points.
I think the dislike, or perception of overexposure, is also due to the fact that this is an entirely new character brought into the fiction. It doesn't rely on any previous hook, be it in name, design, fiction or what have you. [Same was with Drift, as the comment above mine bring into the discussion - it was felt that this was a brand new thing that everyone should love because reasons. And now many people do (as many did at the time too), for good reasons.]
Because, really, if you look at vol 2, Windblade is far from being the main character. Even her introduction is alongside two other Camiens. In the Victorion arc/Combiner Hunters, Arcee is more centre stage than her.
(I also have a suspicion based on recent studies on men vs women in larger groups and the perception of their input, but I'll leave that for another day.)
Prowl4 - I am a little confused as to why you don't think Cybertronians might want some external opinion on their affairs, given how poorly they've conducted them for millions of years (i.e. war). Surely a fresh pair of eyes might do some good, or at least something different? She's a diplomat, after all - it's only natural that her character is used to mediate between others.
Also, what do you mean by poor attitude?
---
The one thing I do have an issue with, is the cross-fiction. IDW Windblade is not the same (clearly) as RID Windblade, and we shouldn't conflate the two. Similarly, I feel we should avoid relying on the Machinima series to 'consolidate' her place in IDW fiction. Have any other characters had that?
ZeroWolf wrote:Why would starscream get rid of the one person who can talk to metroplex? IDW prime has doubted himself a lot in his history, like in the one shot that led to the start of the two ongoings "death of optimus prime" as for starscream, it wouldn't look very good for him to not listen to one of the founding council members and his frenemy.
Prowl4 wrote:ZeroWolf wrote:Why would starscream get rid of the one person who can talk to metroplex? IDW prime has doubted himself a lot in his history, like in the one shot that led to the start of the two ongoings "death of optimus prime" as for starscream, it wouldn't look very good for him to not listen to one of the founding council members and his frenemy.
Not doing much of that lately is she? She's had her usefulness to him, he was anointed chosen, after that it was time to dump her. Starscream needs to get rid of her but alas IDW won't injure let alone kill fembots.
Prowl4 wrote:IDW won't injure let alone kill fembots.
RevTibe wrote:Prowl4 wrote:ZeroWolf wrote:Why would starscream get rid of the one person who can talk to metroplex? IDW prime has doubted himself a lot in his history, like in the one shot that led to the start of the two ongoings "death of optimus prime" as for starscream, it wouldn't look very good for him to not listen to one of the founding council members and his frenemy.
Not doing much of that lately is she? She's had her usefulness to him, he was anointed chosen, after that it was time to dump her. Starscream needs to get rid of her but alas IDW won't injure let alone kill fembots.Prowl4 wrote:IDW won't injure let alone kill fembots.
Doesn't change the fact your claim that IDW doesn't injure female TFs is hilariously offbase. (And yes, central TF characters die very infrequently, so when there are only a handful of female TFs, most of whom have only been in the spotlight for about a year or two, you're going to see less deaths among them than a much larger group of male TFs who have been around for almost a decade.)Prowl4 wrote:RevTibe wrote:Prowl4 wrote:ZeroWolf wrote:Why would starscream get rid of the one person who can talk to metroplex? IDW prime has doubted himself a lot in his history, like in the one shot that led to the start of the two ongoings "death of optimus prime" as for starscream, it wouldn't look very good for him to not listen to one of the founding council members and his frenemy.
Not doing much of that lately is she? She's had her usefulness to him, he was anointed chosen, after that it was time to dump her. Starscream needs to get rid of her but alas IDW won't injure let alone kill fembots.Prowl4 wrote:IDW won't injure let alone kill fembots.
Any of them in comas, long term injuries or deaths by any chance? No
Prowl4 wrote:ZeroWolf wrote:Why would starscream get rid of the one person who can talk to metroplex? IDW prime has doubted himself a lot in his history, like in the one shot that led to the start of the two ongoings "death of optimus prime" as for starscream, it wouldn't look very good for him to not listen to one of the founding council members and his frenemy.
Not doing much of that lately is she? She's had her usefulness to him, he was anointed chosen, after that it was time to dump her. Starscream needs to get rid of her but alas IDW won't injure let alone kill fembots.
ZeroWolf wrote: Do you people who hate windblade also hate Drift? While there is certainly important differences between the two, I think there's a lot connecting them.
What evidence do you have in mind? The Windblade books seem to fluctuate between 90-70% of the MTMTE/ex-RID sales (i.e., Windblade selling 8k when ex-RID sells 10k), with one or two Windblade issues outselling the main pair. (Getting my data from Comichron.)partholon wrote:im completly nonplussed about the character. she screams "editorial" to me. wheter IDW or HASBRO i dont know but its not fan love causing this high profile IMO. hence why were now on book THREE to sell her to the public that all evidence on the sales front dont want her and i dont give much hope for the book to last past issue 12 TBH.
partholon wrote:ZeroWolf wrote: Do you people who hate windblade also hate Drift? While there is certainly important differences between the two, I think there's a lot connecting them.
i think you can put good money on most people that hate windblade also hate drift.
for myself its even worse.
im completly nonplussed about the character. she screams "editorial" to me. wheter IDW or HASBRO i dont know but its not fan love causing this high profile IMO. hence why were now on book THREE to sell her to the public that all evidence on the sales front dont want her and i dont give much hope for the book to last past issue 12 TBH.
It just feels so forced ,just like the drift books, and with SOOOOOO many characters out there denied coverage by dint of the sheer number of TF characters ya cant help but undertand why some people are annoyed. its not a million miles away from what marvel and DC used to do back in the 90s to sell more books that didnt really have an inbuilt fanbase large enough to support it.
the only WINDBLADE books ive bought are the ones ive been forceded to i.e the crossover combiner war stuff and the oneshots and i say this as a reader that LIKES world building and politics . this book should be right up my street.
so why isnt it?
cause i'd rather PROWL was playing the role windblade is against starscream. watching someone like him forced to deal with screamers leadership is infinetly more interesting than some blowin character ive no connection to.
ive flicked through the book, and ive liked some of scotts Sci Fi ideas (like the planet where cities have to move to escape the dawning sun) but IMO bad art, and i dont like the current artist, combined with characters that dont draw me in equal no sale on the comic front from me.
i MIGHT buy the trade/s, but if they do what they did with combiner wars with it again thatll make it a waste of time as im fecked if im buying things twice because of crossovers.
RevTibe wrote:What evidence do you have in mind? The Windblade books seem to fluctuate between 90-70% of the MTMTE/ex-RID sales (i.e., Windblade selling 8k when ex-RID sells 10k), with one or two Windblade issues outselling the main pair. (Getting my data from Comichron.)partholon wrote:im completly nonplussed about the character. she screams "editorial" to me. wheter IDW or HASBRO i dont know but its not fan love causing this high profile IMO. hence why were now on book THREE to sell her to the public that all evidence on the sales front dont want her and i dont give much hope for the book to last past issue 12 TBH.
I'm not a comic sales expert, but that seems pretty good for a pair of miniseries, considering it doesn't benefit from preexisting buyers/subscribers as much as the main pair.
Edit: Forgot to mention that I'm not saying sales = quality (I'd argue that Vol. 1 was great even if it only sold to a dozen people), but sales data is certainly a useful talking point in this context.
I was responding to your claim that;partholon wrote:ya just answered your own question.
sales indeed are NOT an indication of quality. ive bought lots of books over the years that no one followed but they were all immensely enjoyable, but end of the day sales dictate what happens to an ongoing.
While sales data is not necessarily an indicator of quality, it's a fitting response to someone trying to argue that the "public ... doesn't want her" based on an incorrect assumption about the series' sales data.partholon wrote:sell her to the public that all evidence on the sales front dont want her
RevTibe wrote:While sales data is not necessarily an indicator of quality, it's a fitting response to someone trying to argue that the "public ... doesn't want her" based on an incorrect assumption about the series' sales data.partholon wrote:sell her to the public that all evidence on the sales front dont want her
RevTibe wrote:On other points; GI vs. is great, and yeah, the comics industry can be cutthroat. On the note of an editorial push; what's more logical - that IDW sees Windblade as the financially ideal angle to try and establish a third ongoing in this setting, or that there's some secret plan to push Windblade even if she makes less money? Like you said - it's a cutthroat, profit-focused industry.
RevTibe wrote:You mention "genuine fan favourites" - what's the qualification? I see plenty of people naming Windblade as one of their favourites - does that not count? Just feels like this is going to be a "no true scotsman"-type scenario. Also, check out Punishment and Redemption, two recent IDW mini-series focused on the Dinobots.
Your statement that "the public that all evidence on the sales front dont want her" (and underlying assumption re: sales data) is incorrect. Windblade V.1 sold 97% as well as the contemporary exRID/MTMTE issues, Windblade V.2 sold 87-88% as well (1% uncertainty due to muddled release dates). Looking at that data, and considering that a miniseries doesn't have the legacy benefits of a matured ongoing, it is clear that drawing the conclusion that "the public ... don't want her" is, at best, deeply flawed.partholon wrote:RevTibe wrote:While sales data is not necessarily an indicator of quality, it's a fitting response to someone trying to argue that the "public ... doesn't want her" based on an incorrect assumption about the series' sales data.partholon wrote:sell her to the public that all evidence on the sales front dont want her
whats incorrect about it?
Like you were saying, it's a cutthroat industry - being a close third isn't always good enough. Also, curious about info on "cancelled mid-arc" - is there a news release I missed? (serious question, I can't keep up with everything.) What I know is that it was originally solicited as an ongoing, then solicited as a mini-series. To me, that suggests the choice to compress Vol.2 then wait for Til' All Are One was made prior to Vol.2's release.partholon wrote:her book was cancelled mid story arc due to lack of sales. IDW havent done that since the "-ation" days. if it was preforming they'd still be printing it.
Yeah, the Hasbro push gave us the Windblade Vol.1 miniseries, which did well, but do you really think we would have gotten a Vol.2 if it had flopped?partholon wrote:theres nothing secret about hasbro interference at IDW and it extends beyond pushing windblade. its THEIR property so they call the shots. windblade won the poll so she gets the push across the media. if anything we should be happy barber and co are putting such effort into it. when it fails again they can at least say they tried.
Who in Transformers has Wolverine level appeal? Prime, Megatron, Starscream, Bumblebee? Because they're getting a lot of attention in IDW (well, apart from Deadbee, but he's got his own TV show). Not a lot of TFs command that level of appeal on account of the breadth of the fiction; not Soundwave, and certainly not a bit player like Impactor. Character nostalgia can be a factor, but you need truly ridiculous amounts of pressure for it to be the deciding factor - and that isn't present in the TF fandom.partholon wrote:RevTibe wrote:You mention "genuine fan favourites" - what's the qualification? I see plenty of people naming Windblade as one of their favourites - does that not count? Just feels like this is going to be a "no true scotsman"-type scenario. Also, check out Punishment and Redemption, two recent IDW mini-series focused on the Dinobots.
"fan favorite" is a self explanatory term. at least in how it applies to comics. wolverine is a classic example. he was NEVER meant to have his own book. but being a fan favorite pressure got so high from them that marvel relented and gave him his own mini , which resulted in an ongoing, and him eventually becoming the touchstone character of the xmen. it seems mad now but they actually never saw that coming at the time.
can ANYONE say - in terms of fan outcry- that windblade is our version of wolverine ?
Set on Cybertron and the political in-fighting between Starscream and Windblade to craft a new era for Transformers on Cybertron and beyond, the series has a broader scope than any Transformers series before. Picking up thematically from her last series, Transformers: Windblade, Scott and artist Alex Milne (nope --Va'al) are looking to delve deeper into the heart of being a Transformer.
Newsarama: "Till All Are One" is a very hallowed phrase in the Transformers mythos. What does it mean here for this new series?
Mairghread Scott: “Till All Are One” is a double-edged sword in our series. Our characters' main challenge right now is integration: Autobots and Decepticons, colonists and Cybertronians, various religious and political factions. These people know they need help to survive, but getting that help from former enemies is a hard pill to swallow. On the other hand, the threat of empire is always there. If Cybertron falls back under a totalitarian government and 'all' are forced to become 'one' it can be just as damaging. So everyone is working toward this single phrase, but in very different ways.
[...]
Nrama: How did this series come about? Is it something you pitched to do, or something IDW asked you to work on specifically?
Scott: We weren't sure when Windblade ended if we'd be able to do any more so we crammed as much plot in as we could. So when John Barber asked what I'd do with an ongoing, it took me a minute to figure out which of the many toys I'd grabbed I'd like to play with first. I'm glad I took the time to find it.
Till All Are One is going to explore and spotlight a variety of characters from across the spectrum of Transformers works, but in a single cohesive story. My goal isn't to hit everyone at once, but to bounce back and forth, to touch on the people that are rebuilding this world so that we're less of a classic 'team' book and more the story of a people and their struggles. Of course, some characters will always be at the heart of things, Windblade and Starscream in particular. But I've always been a character-focused writer and I want it to feel like Cybertron as a planet is changing and growing, not just a single character or a handful of them.
RevTibe wrote:Curious about the shot of Chromia removing her "helmet" - if there is a Chromia focus, we might see a resolution to Chromia's vol. 1 crimes, which could put rest to one of my vol. 2 gripes - if there's a line about "yada yada things were too unstable at the time to address it," I could kinda buy it. (My fanfic-y approach would've been for her to be tried in secret on Caminus and returned to duty on "probation" in vol. 2 with her Combiner Hunter deco marking her as criminal - Caminus is a resource poor world, not enough resources to easily replace a skilled worker or hold people in prison, so perhaps after a serious crime you get one probationary chance, then execution).
Seems like Ironhide's getting a bit of focus - always been interested in his recent IDW characterization
True, a Chromia subplot would be too much for the already overstuffed vol. 2! I suppose the most I could've asked for would have been a "this isn't over!"-type line from Windblade somewhere.Dr Va'al wrote:Yes, that is what I am also expecting/Hoping to see. I still have the feeling that the Chromia arc is nowhere near over, and only having six issues to deal with it, really, is not giving it the chance it deserves. If it's not addressed at all, then yeah.. it'll stand out a little sore.
Yeah, there's a lot of vague stuff surrounding the Pax and Gorlam Prime - a lot can be read into Jhiaxus's ramblings about Gorlam Prime and the Pax when LV-117 was being bashed about in time, but part of me hopes that those were purely in reference to Shockwave's Dark Cybertron plan - let's leave time travel in the past (heh). Then there was Combiner Wars' suggestion that the vision was instead sharing headspace with someone/thing else instead of a premonition. My guess is that TAAO will largely deal with Ironhide's character arc; the plotlines tied to his vision sound like a better fit for a post-All Hail Optimus ex-RID arc.Dr Va'al wrote:Now that is an interesting character to look at, after the whole 'Pax Cybertronia is no longer a thing' thing. Or is it? What is his role, now? He obviously has a lot to contribute, but everything has changed for him since AHM and his mini series. Where will he go from here?
RevTibe wrote:True, a Chromia subplot would be too much for the already overstuffed vol. 2! I suppose the most I could've asked for would have been a "this isn't over!"-type line from Windblade somewhere.Dr Va'al wrote:Yes, that is what I am also expecting/Hoping to see. I still have the feeling that the Chromia arc is nowhere near over, and only having six issues to deal with it, really, is not giving it the chance it deserves. If it's not addressed at all, then yeah.. it'll stand out a little sore.
I'd love to see Chromia's crime leveraged to talk about how Cybertronians value life - I'd imagine millions of years of warfare would leave many Cybes with a blasé reaction to three casualties from a bombing, while the more peaceful colonists would be horrified.Yeah, there's a lot of vague stuff surrounding the Pax and Gorlam Prime - a lot can be read into Jhiaxus's ramblings about Gorlam Prime and the Pax when LV-117 was being bashed about in time, but part of me hopes that those were purely in reference to Shockwave's Dark Cybertron plan - let's leave time travel in the past (heh). Then there was Combiner Wars' suggestion that the vision was instead sharing headspace with someone/thing else instead of a premonition. My guess is that TAAO will largely deal with Ironhide's character arc; the plotlines tied to his vision sound like a better fit for a post-All Hail Optimus ex-RID arc.Dr Va'al wrote:Now that is an interesting character to look at, after the whole 'Pax Cybertronia is no longer a thing' thing. Or is it? What is his role, now? He obviously has a lot to contribute, but everything has changed for him since AHM and his mini series. Where will he go from here?
I am surprised/glad that he's been an interesting character despite being killed/revived/mindwiped previously - that's basically the same treatment Energon Demolishor got, which isn't a flattering similarity.
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