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THE SPAM THREAD

There is more to Transformers than movies, cartoons, comics and toys. Discuss anything else Transformers here.

Postby i_amtrunks » Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:32 pm

I know this is only a Wikia page, and that it may not be 100% accurate, but it is accurate enough:
http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Primus

and from above link:
Before the dawn of time, Order and Chaos existed within an extradimensional entity known as the One. He created twin astral beings to reign over the cosmos: Primus and Unicron. Their nature differed, as Primus's lifeforce (aka the Allspark) was a multiversal singularity; existing across all Transformers realities at once (See Animated and IDW continuity sections below for possible exceptions to this.), whereas Unicron existed in only one dimension at a time but could travel relatively freely between them. Primus was the Lord of Light and Order, and Unicron, the Lord of Darkness and Chaos. Unicron sought to devour everything that exists and become one with the Void at the end of all things.


I believe that quote comes from the DK Ultimate Guide.
That is where it is written.
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Postby Tramp » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:18 pm

There aren't multiple versions of Primus. There is one Primus, but he exists in all realities at the same time. Gods can do that you know. :wink:

Anyway, I went back through the Ultimate Guide to do some research and copied down a load of information about Primus and Unicron's origins, proboably more than would be wise to try and post verbatum, though I can if you want me too, :grin:, so I mwill summerize it as best I can.

In a nut-shell it states that Cybertron and the Transformers exsisted even before organic life crawled out of the primordial ooze on Earth, and that Cybertron is really Primus, a being forged when the Universe was still in its infancy. It goes on to say that Primus and Unicron were created by The One at the dawn of time, originally as one being, then split into two, one Unicron, the other Primus, to explore the Universe and all of its realities, spreadin ghteir entiretiy accrossnew planets and realities, creating new worlds in them all and thus seeding the future, but Unicron descended into destrcutive rage and began to consime and destroy all they had built forcing Primus to take up arms against him. It states that both Primus and Unicron took on an astral and physical planetary forms with robot modes, though Primus rarely uses his and passed his ability to transform down to his creations, preferring instead to be a part of the Universe and all of its realities on a planetary level, feeling its ebbs and flows. Primus created planetary turbines within himself and created a crew of 13 sentient beings to guid and maintain his planetary form, but one betrayed them, joining Unicron, and most were destroyed in battle with him, though he and the Fallen were cast into a black hole. Afterwords, Primus established an orbit around Alpha Centari. (pages 10 and 53)

Under the page on Unicron, it states specifically that he is committed to the destruction of all life and has crushed and consumed planets and infected the very substance of space with a chaotic virus that undid the very Order of the Universe, then when nothing remained, he would rest only to awaken again to move on to a different reality to start the process over again. (Page 50)

Further, and this I will qoute directly, it states,
Unicron would return again and again, and could be temporarily defeated but never totally destroyed. Each time Unicron replenished itself, its evil grew and it adapted its body into new and different configurations. Its vast heavily shielded Spark Core was resistant even to Matrix energy allowing it to rebuild by absorbing other sparks or pure Energon.
(page 51)

The Ultimate Guide also goes into the Armada comics, where Unicron had pulled heralds from one alternate "G1" reality, including a "G1" Galvatron, Scourge, and Cylonus, among others. Once again showing his ability to transverse from one reality to another. Primus' physical form, though, never leaves a given reality, yet, he exists in all of them as the same being because there is only the two of them: One Primus, and one Unicron, born at the dawn of time itself.

As fro the origin of Primus being capable of existing in multiple realities at once while still remaining one being, and Unicron travelling between realities, I believe the 3H and Hasbro Universe story lines initially established that retcon. They even retconned the Quintessan origin of the cartoon in Wreckers #3. This was further confirmed in the Ultimate Guide and the DW comics where much of the information for the Ultimate guide is from.
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Postby Tramp » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:31 pm

i_amtrunks wrote:I know this is only a Wikia page, and that it may not be 100% accurate, but it is accurate enough:
http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Primus

and from above link:
Before the dawn of time, Order and Chaos existed within an extradimensional entity known as the One. He created twin astral beings to reign over the cosmos: Primus and Unicron. Their nature differed, as Primus's lifeforce (aka the Allspark) was a multiversal singularity; existing across all Transformers realities at once (See Animated and IDW continuity sections below for possible exceptions to this.), whereas Unicron existed in only one dimension at a time but could travel relatively freely between them. Primus was the Lord of Light and Order, and Unicron, the Lord of Darkness and Chaos. Unicron sought to devour everything that exists and become one with the Void at the end of all things.


I believe that quote comes from the DK Ultimate Guide.
That is where it is written.


It's not an exact quote. It's a mix of information from multiple sources, including the Ultimate Guide and Marvel among others. The exact quote from the Ultimate Guide is this:
The Big Bang
Having witnessed the birth of our Universe, an extradimensional entitiy known as The One grew curious and created twin heralds, Unicron and Primus. But Unicron was an imperfet being, a chaotic force that ultimately began to ravage the fledgling Universe. Unicron took on two distinct forms, one mental (projected in the Astral plane), and one physical (a metal planetoid). —Transformers: the Ultimnate Guide page 50.

Primus
Before the dawn of time, Order and Chaos existed in perfect harmony within a self-contained entity called The One. Eager to explore the infant Universe, The One created Unicron, and then subdivided its creation into two. That second being was Primus. Both heralds spread their entirety across new planets throughout many realities, seeding the future. But as Primus gained sentience, he realized that Unicron had become a force for Chaos, destroying all they had created. Wise and in touch with all living things, Primusbecame the Champion of Order, vowing to safeguard the Universe.

Robot Mode Assuming the role of Protector of the Universe, Primus used the enrgy The One had given him to attack Unicron directly, the former twin forces clashing explosively and repeatedly. Like Unicron, Primus posesses two modes (planet and robot), but rarely assumed his robot mode, wishing rather to be part of the Universe on a planetary level it is ebbs and flows. Instead, Primus passed his transformation abilities on to the beings he created: The TRANSFORMERS.—Transformers: The Ultimate Guide page 53.
Tramp

Postby Uniprimus » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:38 pm

So, there is a Primus in one universe, that means there are alternates of his BODIES in other universes, and so with Unicron? And when they are defeated, their sparks are flund t another asteroid in another universe?
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Postby Deadpool. » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:42 pm

Doesnt quite make much sense though.
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Postby Tramp » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:47 pm

Eradicator wrote:So, there is a Primus in one universe, that means there are alternates of his BODIES in other universes, and so with Unicron? And when they are defeated, their sparks are flund t another asteroid in another universe?

Not quite. Primus' spark is the Allspark which transends realities. He exists physically across all realities simultaneiously as Cybertron, but one singular consciousness. Each reality has a Cybertron, and they are all Primus, Lrd of light, his physical form and connected to this one singular being, the Allspark. Unicron physically travels realities one at a time consuming one reality before resting and moving on to the next like a plague of locusts.
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Postby Uniprimus » Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:09 pm

So, Primus' (don't take this literally) 'essence, or spark can wonder the multiverse and 'power' each Cybertron?'
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Postby Sledge » Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:29 pm

Is this a Furman thing by any chance?
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Postby Damolisher » Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:32 pm

Yup.
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Postby Tramp » Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:44 pm

Eradicator wrote:So, Primus' (don't take this literally) 'essence, or spark can wonder the multiverse and 'power' each Cybertron?'
Not wuite. It doesn't wander the multiverse. IT links the multiverse together with him residing in all realities simultaneously. He exists both outside of reality as well as within all of them together at once. Kind of like God, but not quite because Primus has a physical form, not just a spiritual one.
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Postby Son of Primus » Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:47 pm

This doesn't make any sense to me, I don't mind the multiverse thing, but how can they be interconnected by things that don't exist in all of them? Primus and the Original 13 don't exist in every Transformers universe. I only really know the original series, Beast Wars, Beast Machines, and Cybertron ... but the fact is, I only know that the original 13 and Primus are only mentioned in Cybertron. I haven't seen RiD, Armada, or Energon (if anyone knows where I can find DVDs of these, please pass them on), but I don't see how it could be a connected multiverse, when the connection pieces don't exist.
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Postby Tramp » Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:55 pm

PrimeNumber wrote:This doesn't make any sense to me, I don't mind the multiverse thing, but how can they be interconnected by things that don't exist in all of them? Primus and the Original 13 don't exist in every Transformers universe. I only really know the original series, Beast Wars, Beast Machines, and Cybertron ... but the fact is, I only know that the original 13 and Primus are only mentioned in Cybertron. I haven't seen RiD, Armada, or Energon (if anyone knows where I can find DVDs of these, please pass them on), but I don't see how it could be a connected multiverse, when the connection pieces don't exist.

They were retconned into all of the universes by Hasbro through the Universe story line they created along with 3H and later Fun Productions for BotCon and the Universe toy line. Ths, even if they don't make a direct appearance, they exist anyway.
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Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:20 pm

Motto: "Today is a good day to die......but the day is not yet over!"
PrimeNumber wrote:This doesn't make any sense to me, I don't mind the multiverse thing, but how can they be interconnected by things that don't exist in all of them? Primus and the Original 13 don't exist in every Transformers universe. I only really know the original series, Beast Wars, Beast Machines, and Cybertron ... but the fact is, I only know that the original 13 and Primus are only mentioned in Cybertron. I haven't seen RiD, Armada, or Energon (if anyone knows where I can find DVDs of these, please pass them on), but I don't see how it could be a connected multiverse, when the connection pieces don't exist.


Just because we didnt see them does not mean that they didnt exist.The ideas for the 13 and the orgin for Primus go back to the G1 marvel comic book......although many of the fine details have changed over the years.....some for the better some not.....reguardless Hasbro has decided in their great wisdom to inter connect all the universe into 1 big multiverse.Its like a ttree with many branches.
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Postby OmegaMaximus » Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:58 pm

Does anyone know the need for the Multiverse (other than making some fanboys giggle with excitement)? What is really the benefit of having the characters able to jump from universe to universe? Wouldn't it just get annoying/confusing if you were doing something and then suddenly you were pulled through a blackhole to do something else? I'm not arguing the multiverse, just asking why do it?

Just because we didnt see them does not mean that they didnt exist.The ideas for the 13 and the orgin for Primus go back to the G1 marvel comic book......although many of the fine details have changed over the years.....some for the better some not.....reguardless Hasbro has decided in their great wisdom to inter connect all the universe into 1 big multiverse.Its like a ttree with many branches.


You and PrimeNumber are right. In the comics, Primus and the original 12 are there - but in the cartoons, Cybertron is a planet converted to a factory by the Quints. Now how could Primus be the planet/god that creates the transformers if A. he didn't create them and B. at the end of Beast Machines the planet is converted BACK it's organic (be it techno-organic) roots.

Now again, if Hasbro wants to say it's a multiverse ... sure go ahead, I personally will never accept that, because it was never intended to be that - and don't even try and argue that they did, because I'm pretty positive that no writer from G1 ever sat down and said "You know, in the future, we should have a universe with transformers and Cyber Keys." Just didn't happen.
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Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:24 am

Motto: "Today is a good day to die......but the day is not yet over!"
OmegaMaximus wrote:Does anyone know the need for the Multiverse (other than making some fanboys giggle with excitement)? What is really the benefit of having the characters able to jump from universe to universe? Wouldn't it just get annoying/confusing if you were doing something and then suddenly you were pulled through a blackhole to do something else? I'm not arguing the multiverse, just asking why do it?

Just because we didnt see them does not mean that they didnt exist.The ideas for the 13 and the orgin for Primus go back to the G1 marvel comic book......although many of the fine details have changed over the years.....some for the better some not.....reguardless Hasbro has decided in their great wisdom to inter connect all the universe into 1 big multiverse.Its like a ttree with many branches.


You and PrimeNumber are right. In the comics, Primus and the original 12 are there - but in the cartoons, Cybertron is a planet converted to a factory by the Quints. Now how could Primus be the planet/god that creates the transformers if A. he didn't create them and B. at the end of Beast Machines the planet is converted BACK it's organic (be it techno-organic) roots.

Now again, if Hasbro wants to say it's a multiverse ... sure go ahead, I personally will never accept that, because it was never intended to be that - and don't even try and argue that they did, because I'm pretty positive that no writer from G1 ever sat down and said "You know, in the future, we should have a universe with transformers and Cyber Keys." Just didn't happen.


To answer your 2 nd question ....your right it was never the intent in the G1 toon that event's would follow the same path as the G1 marvel comics......As a mater of fact this has been a mater of debate between Tramp and myself.......but the idea that he didnt create them can be eazly explained.Remember this is not fact just a possiable way that events could have gone.

To put it short.Primus creates the first Transformers to combat Unicron.In the fight he is and his creations are damaged and must shut down.The Quints happen by and ,see what they have found and build vector sigma to control Primus's core and start mass production.
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Postby IceWilly » Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:46 am

I want to strangle the OP. You are saying that a FICTIONAL comic, that has been remade into many different comics, by many different people/companies, converted into MANY different cartoons translated in MANY different languages is supposedly to magically all make sense without any gaps in explanation?

Are you kidding? Come on man, seriously?

Give it a rest, every single writer for every comic and TV show to date has had to look back at past series and determine THEIR own interpretation and then go from the there writing a story. Maybe they believe Unicron and Primus are all present in many different universes, maybe they believe that when Unicron died in the movie that was it, maybe their show is based before the movie in another universe. There is simply no right and wrong way.

In the beginning of transformers back in the 80's, no one sat down and wrote a massive book about what happened when and who did what and who died, otherwise you would know the whole story years ago and our beloved hobby would be dead. It's a piece of art that is evolving over time, if you spent all day racking your mind to find an answer that you can accept for every open ended question you are bound to be all over forums whining about it, and people will only offer so much information on their OPINIONS until you reject it all as unsuitable for you they give up.

Do I know for sure what the deal is with Primus and Unicron? No, but i have some ideas I like to think are the case. But in the end its entertainment, so you either let yourself be entertained, or you go on trying to pin down every fact and just get annoyed. Your call, but do not expect to find a DEFINITIVE answer to a question that does not have an expert or creator that defined it in the first place.
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Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:52 am

Motto: "Today is a good day to die......but the day is not yet over!"
IceWilly wrote:I want to strangle the OP. You are saying that a FICTIONAL comic, that has been remade into many different comics, by many different people/companies, converted into MANY different cartoons translated in MANY different languages is supposedly to magically all make sense without any gaps in explanation?

Are you kidding? Come on man, seriously?

Give it a rest, every single writer for every comic and TV show to date has had to look back at past series and determine THEIR own interpretation and then go from the there writing a story. Maybe they believe Unicron and Primus are all present in many different universes, maybe they believe that when Unicron died in the movie that was it, maybe their show is based before the movie in another universe. There is simply no right and wrong way.

In the beginning of transformers back in the 80's, no one sat down and wrote a massive book about what happened when and who did what and who died, otherwise you would know the whole story years ago and our beloved hobby would be dead. It's a piece of art that is evolving over time, if you spent all day racking your mind to find an answer that you can accept for every open ended question you are bound to be all over forums whining about it, and people will only offer so much information on their OPINIONS until you reject it all as unsuitable for you they give up.

Do I know for sure what the deal is with Primus and Unicron? No, but i have some ideas I like to think are the case. But in the end its entertainment, so you either let yourself be entertained, or you go on trying to pin down every fact and just get annoyed. Your call, but do not expect to find a DEFINITIVE answer to a question that does not have an expert or creator that defined it in the first place.


What is a OP?
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Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds

T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach

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Postby Tramp » Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:57 am

Sto_vo_kor is right about our friendly debate. The official retcon that Hasbro put forth, ans was written in the Ultimate guide is that primus created the Original 13, their descndents are the Transformers. Early in the Transformers ancient past, the Quintessans invaded, cutting off Primus' link to his children and enslaving the Cybertronian people then tampering with them, splitting them up into their two "lines" as the Quintessans are want to do, before being driven off as chronicled in the cartoon.
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Postby Night Striker » Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:12 am

Does anyone know the need for the Multiverse (other than making some fanboys giggle with excitement)? What is really the benefit of having the characters able to jump from universe to universe? Wouldn't it just get annoying/confusing if you were doing something and then suddenly you were pulled through a blackhole to do something else? I'm not arguing the multiverse, just asking why do it?


This is something that Marvel Comics, and DC Comics have struggled with for years! DC went as far as creating a Crisis back in the 80s to shrink it's world down, only to have an Infinate Crisis to recreate it's mulitverse.

What's the need for it. When you have so many writers, with so many ritch ideas you don't want to go destroying or loosing them. The benifits come from being able for writers to add more layers and depth onto existing characters rather then create from scratch a new character that has to fill a role that another character could easily have. Actually that sort of happened to Primal, but anyway. Would it get annoying, if done wrong, absolutely yes. But when done correctly a multiverse can give a lot more to the fans then you may think.

Fans of RID can enjoy their world while the G1s follow theres...and the AEC fans get their little jollys with the Unicron Trilogy. All things considered I'd rather play in a multiverse where, as a writer I can expand on different characters then on a single verse where you can come up short at times for fans.
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Postby i_amtrunks » Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:27 am

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:What is a OP?


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Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:21 am

Motto: "Today is a good day to die......but the day is not yet over!"
i_amtrunks wrote:
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:What is a OP?


Original Poster.


My thanks
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds

T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach

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Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:25 am

Motto: "Today is a good day to die......but the day is not yet over!"
Night Striker wrote:
Does anyone know the need for the Multiverse (other than making some fanboys giggle with excitement)? What is really the benefit of having the characters able to jump from universe to universe? Wouldn't it just get annoying/confusing if you were doing something and then suddenly you were pulled through a blackhole to do something else? I'm not arguing the multiverse, just asking why do it?


This is something that Marvel Comics, and DC Comics have struggled with for years! DC went as far as creating a Crisis back in the 80s to shrink it's world down, only to have an Infinate Crisis to recreate it's mulitverse.

What's the need for it. When you have so many writers, with so many ritch ideas you don't want to go destroying or loosing them. The benifits come from being able for writers to add more layers and depth onto existing characters rather then create from scratch a new character that has to fill a role that another character could easily have. Actually that sort of happened to Primal, but anyway. Would it get annoying, if done wrong, absolutely yes. But when done correctly a multiverse can give a lot more to the fans then you may think.

Fans of RID can enjoy their world while the G1s follow theres...and the AEC fans get their little jollys with the Unicron Trilogy. All things considered I'd rather play in a multiverse where, as a writer I can expand on different characters then on a single verse where you can come up short at times for fans.


You know I seen many a writter try to express the need for a multiverse But I have never seen it explained so perfectly
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds

T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach

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Postby Primus C-00 » Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:52 am

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IceWilly wrote:I want to strangle the OP. You are saying that a FICTIONAL comic, that has been remade into many different comics, by many different people/companies, converted into MANY different cartoons translated in MANY different languages is supposedly to magically all make sense without any gaps in explanation?


I think the thread title, mewled in Caps says it all really...

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He's got some pretty far-out powers to go along with them, too, including teleportation, the projection of trippy telepathic visions and illusions, and the ability to groove on the language of 98% of all known species. To uses his powers to the fullest, though, he's gotta be feelin' good vibrations; bad karma can seriously harsh his mellow, y'know?
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Postby Night Striker » Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:25 pm

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
Night Striker wrote:
Does anyone know the need for the Multiverse (other than making some fanboys giggle with excitement)? What is really the benefit of having the characters able to jump from universe to universe? Wouldn't it just get annoying/confusing if you were doing something and then suddenly you were pulled through a blackhole to do something else? I'm not arguing the multiverse, just asking why do it?


This is something that Marvel Comics, and DC Comics have struggled with for years! DC went as far as creating a Crisis back in the 80s to shrink it's world down, only to have an Infinate Crisis to recreate it's mulitverse.

What's the need for it. When you have so many writers, with so many ritch ideas you don't want to go destroying or loosing them. The benifits come from being able for writers to add more layers and depth onto existing characters rather then create from scratch a new character that has to fill a role that another character could easily have. Actually that sort of happened to Primal, but anyway. Would it get annoying, if done wrong, absolutely yes. But when done correctly a multiverse can give a lot more to the fans then you may think.

Fans of RID can enjoy their world while the G1s follow theres...and the AEC fans get their little jollys with the Unicron Trilogy. All things considered I'd rather play in a multiverse where, as a writer I can expand on different characters then on a single verse where you can come up short at times for fans.


You know I seen many a writter try to express the need for a multiverse But I have never seen it explained so perfectly


Jeeze guys stop making me blush! :oops: Again thanks for the compliment! :D

Personally I love the idea of a multiverse and I really liked what they were doing regarding the Alternators and the one being watching over all the worlds.
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Postby Night Striker » Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:36 pm

Regading the idea of Magically mixing the worlds, it's been done before on grander scales then TF for smaller stories, but I don't think it's been done so publically.

Everytime I think of multiverse I think of Diana Wynnn Jones books. She has been doing the idea of a multiverse for years with her books and connects them through the simplest of things. Though not all her multiverses in her stories seem connected, I think to her as a writer they are. In Howl's moving castle she used the idea of a doorway that openned up to many places when you turned the knob with a certain color up. The nexus of the worlds was the house where Howl dwelled and he could travel to his own world (ours) some sort of hidden place I can't recall, and various places in his own world.

In the Crestomancy Chronicals, Christopher (the Chrestiomancy) could disapper into different worlds just by having his name read. His home in the middle of nowhere was the door and center of all these worlds.

Then there's Garth Nix's Key's to the Kingdom series where the multiverse is layers of a house and you need keys of various natures to access them.

So back to the main question. Can Unicron exist and float between worlds changing bodies? Yes he can and does becuase he and Primus were considered the basic constant in each universe. We might not see them (RID, Beast Wars) but they still are there even if not refernced. The fact is that they've become the threads that basically unite all the worlds, without them you would seriously have to devise a very elaborate story. I like to think that perhapes the Oracle (Not the one in BM) but the first one in G1, is actually the thread that connects all realities and can access them at any given time. Though we never see him at all.
Night Striker
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