The Energon Pub

[Uniprimus]

So, Primus is in each universe, but I don't get that he 'is the same one in each'. And The is only one unicorn in the multiverse?

[Tramp]

Just because we didnt see a Primus or Unicron in RID it doesnt mean that they didnt exsit in that Universe.....it just means we didnt get to see it.....abscence of evidence is not proff of fact.
Personly I have read the Ulitamate Guide and even init it says that the Transformers live in a muiltyverse......but it really doesnt say with universe is the core....it does imply that the DW is but it doesnt say it 100% I.M.O. it just dances around it.

Actually, yes it does. At the very beginning of the chapter on G1 it states:

The largest part of TRANSFORMERS is Genertation 1, the founding characters and stories that shaped the saga of Cybertron and its inhabitants. Over the course of Generation 1, the battle spread to earth and beyond, the core characters evolved into bigger, more sophisticated robot forms, and a host of new robots joined the fray. The saga has spawned many inconsistancies and divergent story lines, but now, at lats, the one true history can be revealed.—Transformers: the Ultimate Guide page 8

[Tramp]

So, Primus is in each universe, but I don't get that he 'is the same one in each'. And The is only one unicorn in the multiverse?

Exactly. Primus is a singular being who's being spans all realities through the Allspark, which is his Spark. He exists in all realities simultaneously, bound to them by his phyiscal form—the planet Cybertron—which exists in all realities. Unicron physically travels from one reality to another as he consumes one and moves on to the next.

[Uniprimus]

Can you explain this a little longer and clearer?

I don't het how in alternate univeres, al Primus' are the 'same'.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Just because we didnt see a Primus or Unicron in RID it doesnt mean that they didnt exsit in that Universe.....it just means we didnt get to see it.....abscence of evidence is not proff of fact.
Personly I have read the Ulitamate Guide and even init it says that the Transformers live in a muiltyverse......but it really doesnt say with universe is the core....it does imply that the DW is but it doesnt say it 100% I.M.O. it just dances around it.

Actually, yes it does. At the very beginning of the chapter on G1 it states:

The largest part of TRANSFORMERS is Genertation 1, the founding characters and stories that shaped the saga of Cybertron and its inhabitants. Over the course of Generation 1, the battle spread to earth and beyond, the core characters evolved into bigger, more sophisticated robot forms, and a host of new robots joined the fray. The saga has spawned many inconsistancies and divergent story lines, but now, at lats, the one true history can be revealed.—Transformers: the Ultimate Guide page 8

I know what it says Tramp but as you read on it doesnt really say witch one is the "one true history"!!!!Let me try to explain what I mean:
[Case #1] On the page that they go into the history of the dinobots they tell us of 2 historys of their origins....The Marvel G1 and the G1 Toon but they leave it a question as to witch one is the REAL TRUE HISTORY!
from TUG


[Case #2]The same with the Powermaster Optimus Prime entree.....As far as most of the book perspective.....we get the impresion that the Dreamwave universe is the true universe and in DW MTMTE profile books # 7 PM Optimus Prime's partner is called Ginrai.....But they chose only to refer to Marvels Universe history of PM Optimus Prime with Hi-Q as his partner.
Now if the DW universe is in fact the so called True Universe then why no mention of the true PM Optimus Prime's history?????

FROM DW's MTMTE #7


From TUG


These are the issues I have with The Ultimate Guide.....If it were really ment to be the true history then why pussyfoot around serent key points in history.
The way I see it the Ulitame Guide even contradick it's self.

[Tramp]

Can you explain this a little longer and clearer?

I don't het how in alternate univeres, al Primus' are the 'same'.

Because he exists outside of time and space. He's a god. the guardian of all the multiverse and all of creation. As such he exists in all of creation in order to defend all of creation.

[Primus C-00]

So, Primus is in each universe, but I don't get that he 'is the same one in each'. And The is only one unicorn in the multiverse?

Ohhh, I'm having deja vu...

Again.

[Tramp]

It specifically states that the Powermaster Prime story is from an alternate reality. That reality being the Marvel continuity. If you read the history including the start of the war and the characters depicted, they all come from Dreamwave's continuity. It shows War Within Optimus Prime and Megatron, for example. It discusses the contradictions between continuities as well, but the main information is from DW, which took a lot of its history from the cartoon, toy, and Universe continuities.

[Primus C-00]

Can you explain this a little longer and clearer?

I don't het how in alternate univeres, al Primus' are the 'same'.

You're having us on right? I mean how many pages has this thread been going on now?

Wikipedia says:

Omnipotence - Between people of different faiths, or indeed even between people of the same faith, the term omnipotent has been used to connote a number of different positions. These positions include, but are not limited to, the following:

1. God is able to do anything, i. e. the answer to "can God do x" is always "yes", regardless of what x may be. However this leads to obvious contradictions and is not a view held by philosophically aware theologians. Although it can be argued that to try and rationalize God's omnipotent power is a vain undertaking, since we cannot ever really understand God's power, and is perhaps better to take it on faith.(see Kierkegaard)
2. God is able to do anything that is logically possible for God to do[1].
3. God is able to do anything that God chooses to do[2].
4. God is able to do anything that is in accord with his own nature (thus, for instance, if it is a logical consequence of God's nature that what God speaks is truth, then God is not able to lie).

Under many philosophical definitions of the term "God", senses 2, 3 and 4 can be shown to be equivalent. However, on all understandings of Omnipotence, it is generally held that God is able to intervene in the world by superseding the laws of physics, since they are not part of his nature, but the principles on which he has created the physical world. However many modern scholars (such as John Polkinghorne) hold that it is part of God's nature to be consistent and that it would be inconsistent for God to go against His own laws unless there were an overwhelming reason to do so

And:

Omnipresence is the ability to be present in every place at any, and/or every, time; unbounded or universal presence. It is related to the concept of ubiquity, the ability to be everywhere at a certain point in time.

This characteristic is most commonly used in a religious context, as most doctrines bestow the trait of omnipresence unto a superior, usually a deity commonly referred to as a god or goddess by monotheists. This idea differs from Pantheism in that an Omnipresent Divine is implied to be more aware and engaged whereas the Pantheistic Divine is literally the essence with which creation is made. Brahmanism, and other religions that derive from it, incorporate the theory of transcendental omnipresence which differs greatly from the traditional meaning of the word. This theory defines a universal and fundamental substance, which is the source of all physical existence, but which is unrelated to the fact that we exist. If a being ceases to exist, the structure of the world remains unchanged, but if the "it" somehow ceases to exist, existence as a whole would end in the traditional sense of the word, but the transcendental existence would remain.

Some argue that omnipresence is a derived characteristic: an omniscient and omnipotent deity knows every thing and can be and act every where, simultaneously. Others propound a deity as having the "Three O's", including omnipresence as a unique characteristic of the deity. Most Christian denominations — following theology standardized by the Nicene Creed — expand upon the concept of omnipresence in the form of the Trinity, by having a single deity made up of three omnipresent 'substances' or 'persons' (each infinite) that are said to be Three in One.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

It specifically states that the Powermaster Prime story is from an alternate reality. That reality being the Marvel continuity. If you read the history including the start of the war and the characters depicted, they all come from Dreamwave's continuity. It shows War Within Optimus Prime and Megatron, for example. It discusses the contradictions between continuities as well, but the main information is from DW, which took a lot of its history from the cartoon, toy, and Universe continuities.

I understand that! But why no mention of their own PM Optimus????????
Why no deffinitive answer to witch Dinobot history is the True one??????????I dont think you can answer that one.......I cant and thats what makes me question the book in its intiredy!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tramp]

It specifically states that the Powermaster Prime story is from an alternate reality. That reality being the Marvel continuity. If you read the history including the start of the war and the characters depicted, they all come from Dreamwave's continuity. It shows War Within Optimus Prime and Megatron, for example. It discusses the contradictions between continuities as well, but the main information is from DW, which took a lot of its history from the cartoon, toy, and Universe continuities.

I understand that! But why no mention of their own PM Optimus????????
Why no deffinitive answer to witch Dinobot history is the True one??????????I dont think you can answer that one.......I cant and thats what makes me question the book in its intiredy!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because neiuther of them are "true". They're both from "alternate" realities. One from the cartoon, one form Marvel. It also states that they were myths about the Dinobots' creation. It also mentions right at the beginning that they did exist on Cybertron,Read the first two sentences on the Dinobots again.

The Dinobots have always been mysterious,even back on Cybertron. Many myths surround their recreation on Earth—in some versions, the Dinobots never existed on Cybertron at all.

Notice, it is saying in some versions of the myths surrounding the Dinobots origins, they didn't originate on Cybertron. It isn't talking about their true origins. Their true origins have them created on Cybertron. Look at the rest of the intorduction.

One thing is for certain: the fie Dinobots—Grimlock, Sludge, Slag, Swoop, and Snarl—were all troublemakers. Though initially kept apart by Optimus Prime, when Grimlock split to form the Lightning Strike Coalition force, the others went with him. They then went solo, becoming the Dyno-bots on Cybertron, and emerged on Earth, redesigned as the Dinobots.

This comes directly from the DW continuity.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

It specifically states that the Powermaster Prime story is from an alternate reality. That reality being the Marvel continuity. If you read the history including the start of the war and the characters depicted, they all come from Dreamwave's continuity. It shows War Within Optimus Prime and Megatron, for example. It discusses the contradictions between continuities as well, but the main information is from DW, which took a lot of its history from the cartoon, toy, and Universe continuities.

I understand that! But why no mention of their own PM Optimus????????
Why no deffinitive answer to witch Dinobot history is the True one??????????I dont think you can answer that one.......I cant and thats what makes me question the book in its intiredy!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because neiuther of them are "true". They're both from "alternate" realities. One from the cartoon, one form Marvel. It also states that they were myths about the Dinobots' creation. It also mentions right at the beginning that they did exist on Cybertron,Read the first two sentences on the Dinobots again.

The Dinobots have always been mysterious,even back on Cybertron. Many myths surround their recreation on Earth—in some versions, the Dinobots never existed on Cybertron at all.

Notice, it is saying in some versions of the myths surrounding the Dinobots origins, they didn't originate on Cybertron. It isn't talking about their true origins. Their true origins have them created on Cybertron. Look at the rest of the intorduction.

One thing is for certain: the fie Dinobots—Grimlock, Sludge, Slag, Swoop, and Snarl—were all troublemakers. Though initially kept apart by Optimus Prime, when Grimlock split to form the Lightning Strike Coalition force, the others went with him. They then went solo, becoming the Dyno-bots on Cybertron, and emerged on Earth, redesigned as the Dinobots.

This comes directly from the DW continuity.

But your not answering my question!!!!!!Why did they not mention the so called TRUE HISTORY??????????I mean no insult but.......You alway try to wiggle out of these kind of questions because you cant answer them with your Ultimate Guide.
Here is an other exsample where the guide fails to explain its self:
[Case # 3]
In the case of the headmasters, as we learned in issue #8 of DW's MTMTE profile books the headmaster/targetmaster tek is an adapted from the micromaster tek.........but there is no mention of this at all in the Ultimate Guide further more in T.U.G's headmaster entree they tell the story about how the headmasters/targetmasters came to be.....AND THEY WENT WITH THE MARVEL STORY AS THEIRS!!!Nothing about it being an alternate universe or anything!!!!!The say that the Nebulans had already enhanced their bodys with machine parts for space and underwater exploration and they [Nebulans] extended that tek to creat the headmasters and target masters.
Thats a hell of a lot different then what DW's MTMTE books say about how they came about.
And in the case of Fortress Maximus the guide has his history following the flow of events of the Marvel history......but if the guide is the true history and the same as the DW history then we have an other problem.....issue # 2 of DW's MTMTE has no mention of Galen in Fortress Maximus's bio.......and to make it worce it has almost nothing on Spike even being a human.That again contradiks the guide.
If the guide is the true history and its the same as the DW history then we have 2 historys for the Headmasters.
I have gone threw a lot of truble peiceing these together so I'm sorry if their not to clear.

MTMTE



GUIDE

[Tramp]

No we don't, because DW didn't get into the HEadmasters story at all. The Marvel story is the only one we have and Fortrress Maximus' DW bio follows the same pattern as Marvel's having him a pacifist who left Cybertron because of the ongoing war. There is no difference. The reason why it doesn't mention Galen is because they never rewrite the Headmaster story, Other than simply labeling his headmaster partner, they don't even discuss anything about who he's bonded to.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

No we don't, because DW didn't get into the HEadmasters story at all. The Marvel story is the only one we have and Fortrress Maximus' DW bio follows the same pattern as Marvel's having him a pacifist who left Cybertron because of the ongoing war. There is no difference.

If you look at the bio's for every other Headmaster and Targetmaster in DW's MTMTE profiles they have at least a small section about their partners....but not in the case of Fortress Maximus.Even in the Targetmaster profiles of Hot,Rod,Kup,Blurr,Cyclonues,Scurge and PM Optimus Prime the have a small bio about the human partners but nothing on Spike.
Also if it was not ment to be that the Marvel Headmaster history be the Guides true history ,then why didnt the open the entry like the did Powermaster Optimus Prime's .with a disclaimer stating that it was an altrtnate universe they were talking about????????The guide has continuity issue of it own.Your Dinobot explaintion is open to debate because it leaves the issue up to the point of view of the reader........I would still question the PM Optimus Prime debate because the profile book was printed before the Guide so their should have been some mention of DW's PM Optimus but you can explain the headmaster issue away.

And do you remember the Sub-Plot of the MTMTE profile books?

[Tramp]

No we don't, because DW didn't get into the HEadmasters story at all. The Marvel story is the only one we have and Fortrress Maximus' DW bio follows the same pattern as Marvel's having him a pacifist who left Cybertron because of the ongoing war. There is no difference.

If you look at the bio's for every other Headmaster and Targetmaster in DW's MTMTE profiles they have at least a small section about their partners....but not in the case of Fortress Maximus.Even in the Targetmaster profiles of Hot,Rod,Kup,Blurr,Cyclonues,Scurge and PM Optimus Prime the have a small bio about the human partners but nothing on Spike.
Also if it was not ment to be that the Marvel Headmaster history be the Guides true history ,then why didnt the open the entry like the did Powermaster Optimus Prime's .with a disclaimer stating that it was an altrtnate universe they were talking about????????The guide has continuity issue of it own.Your Dinobot explaintion is open to debate because it leaves the issue up to the point of view of the reader........I would still question the PM Optimus Prime debate because the profile book was printed before the Guide so their should have been some mention of DW's PM Optimus but you can explain the headmaster issue away.

And do you remember the Sub-Plot of the MTMTE profile books?

The reason why is because DW didn't change the history of Fortress Maximus. They really didn't go into any detail on it because they never got that far in the story.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

they didnt go into pm Primes story ether but the guide has a history with a disclaimer and mtmte has their own little bio so why didnt the just say it was an alternate universe like pm prime?

[Tramp]

they didnt go into pm Primes story ether but the guide has a history with a disclaimer and mtmte has their own little bio so why didnt the just say it was an alternate universe like pm prime?

That is because Prime's history and his current events in DW are very different from his stories in Marvel. All we have for Fort Max in DW is what happened before he left for Nebulon. His current adventures and what happened after he left never got dealt with. Therefore, they very well could have played out just like they did in the oringinalHeadmasters miniseries.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

they didnt go into pm Primes story ether but the guide has a history with a disclaimer and mtmte has their own little bio so why didnt the just say it was an alternate universe like pm prime?

That is because Prime's history and his current events in DW are very different from Fort Max. All we have for Fort Max in DW is what happened before he left for Nebulon. His current adventures and what happened after he left never got dealt with. Therefore, they very well could have played out just like they did in the oringinalHeadmasters miniseries.

But they knew that they wouldnt be useing the Marvel history when they wrote the guide.They knew that they would have to make some changes to Forts history so why didnt they say at the start of the entree that it was 1 of many posible for the creation of the Headmasters??????By that point they had already made some key changes about their creation.And what I mean is that in DW it was a TF tek and in the Marvel it was Nebulan tek.

[Tramp]

Why would they have to make any changes? DW didn't make any changes to Fort max's history. They never got that far. Thus, there was nothing to rewrite. The Marvel history was good enough. Even in Marvel, the Headmanster Process was developed from a joint venture between Brainstorm and Arcana. The only thing DW added was the twist from the Japanese series that is was originally developed to use robots for heads, not humanoids.

[Damolisher]

The Marvel origins for how Transformers are made is pretty sound too, and Dreamwave allegedly changed that too. Tramp, why is it you can't come to a conclusion on anything? I'm serious, man, you honestly have this bad habit of changing your mind like the weather on certain subjects. When the Marvel comics support your theories, you go with those and ignore others which don't. With Dreamwave, you accept what's told in those, and you ignore the cartoon. Or if it's in the Ultiamte Guide, you ignore everything else, including Dreamwave.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Why would they have to make any changes? DW didn't make any changes to Fort max's history. They never got that far. Thus, there was nothing to rewrite. The Marvel history was good enough. Even in Marvel, the Headmanster Process wqas developed from ajoint venture between Brainstorm and Arcana. The only thing DW added was the twist from the Japanese series that is was originally developed to use robots for heads, not humanoids.

Because the guide says that the Neb's were already enhanced with machine parts for space and underwater missions.........but in the Marvel Headmasters there is no mention of this at all......nothing about them being cyborges was mention at all whine they were creating the headmasters.You would think if it was part of their history in marvel he would have said that it should be posible to adapth their enhanced bodys to the headmaster tek.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

witch means that the guide already made big changes to headmaster history
So the History stated in the guide isnt really marvels history but a hibrid of marvels and the guide's true history

[Tramp]

The Marvel origins for how Transformers are made is pretty sound too, and Dreamwave allegedly changed that too. Tramp, why is it you can't come to a conclusion on anything? I'm serious, man, you honestly have this bad habit of changing your mind like the weather on certain subjects. When the Marvel comics support your theories, you go with those and ignore others which don't. With Dreamwave, you accept what's told in those, and you ignore the cartoon. Or if it's in the Ultiamte Guide, you ignore everything else, including Dreamwave.

Dreamwave didn't make any changes to the Headmasters stroy. They never had the chance to deal with it at all.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

The Marvel origins for how Transformers are made is pretty sound too, and Dreamwave allegedly changed that too. Tramp, why is it you can't come to a conclusion on anything? I'm serious, man, you honestly have this bad habit of changing your mind like the weather on certain subjects. When the Marvel comics support your theories, you go with those and ignore others which don't. With Dreamwave, you accept what's told in those, and you ignore the cartoon. Or if it's in the Ultiamte Guide, you ignore everything else, including Dreamwave.

Dreamwave didn't make any changes to the Headmasters stroy. They never had the chance to deal with it at all.

But the guide made changes

[Tramp]

Why would they have to make any changes? DW didn't make any changes to Fort max's history. They never got that far. Thus, there was nothing to rewrite. The Marvel history was good enough. Even in Marvel, the Headmanster Process wqas developed from ajoint venture between Brainstorm and Arcana. The only thing DW added was the twist from the Japanese series that is was originally developed to use robots for heads, not humanoids.

Because the guide says that the Neb's were already enhanced with machine parts for space and underwater missions.........but in the Marvel Headmasters there is no mention of this at all......nothing about them being cyborges was mention at all whine they were creating the headmasters.You would think if it was part of their history in marvel he would have said that it should be posible to adapth their enhanced bodys to the headmaster tek.

Not necessarily. Not if it isn't important. Marvel didn't go into any real detail about Nebulan society except to show that they were already very advanced. As far as we know, they were already using Cybeorg technology, which is why the Headmaster, Targetmaster, and Powermaster processes were so easily perfected.