The Energon Pub

Oh for Pete's sake eBay even has provisions to deal with people when they sell you a knockoff and make sure you get your money back. And if you're really willing to pay $200+ for a Botcon figure, you should be able to tell right off that it has an issue and something is just slightly amiss.

You can thump that "I want genuine" bible all you want, but for the people that just want the character, those prices are stupid. I'm not going to sit here and say a KO isn't right, but then again I'm curious if the reaction would be the same if iGear or Fansproject (the former being the most likely) came under fire.

I want a hunk of plastic on my desk that represents a character I like. And I don't know about you, but I don't feel I'm supporting a company that much when I'm paying a reseller on eBay that inflated the hell out of the price, especially just because I came late to some party. I'm pretty damn sure these figures weren't calling for prices in the several hundred dollars at some convention.

As for KOtoys, I'm sorry to see them go...and hope it isn't a sign of bad times for third-party companies. Paying attention to the various websites it doesn't exactly look like Galvatron and so forth have been canceled, just won't be available there. And we all know the KO market is still going to be in full swing.

All this accomplished is cutting out one avenue for people to give input on what they wanted to see. Which...kinda sucks.

At the risk of turning myself into a pariah in the fandom again, I have a confession to make. After I got banned from KO Toys' forums for voicing concerns over there being no intentionally built in differences between the KO Dino cassettes they were making and the genuine article, I did an IP check and found out their website was hosted in the US. About a week and a half ago, I used the international minutes on my mobile to report them the Hasbro, including giving them their IP address, and website address. Looks like they acted pretty swiftly on this one.

Some people might hate me for this, but I'm proud of what I did and I'd do it again. Contrary to their claims, KO Toys were giving scammers cart blanche to pass off fakes as genuine G1 Toys, which has even proven true in at least one eBay auction for the Dino Cassettes.

HasTak certainly need to get better with their reissues, and there's certainly a market for access to these molds. However if someone is genuinely about "filling gaps" then this needs to be done in such a way that scammers can't rip people off in the process.

Ruthless Cynic wrote:El Duque,

If my memory is accurate, and it is not always, I believe that Hasbro or Takara purchased a factory from Bandai that included the rights/license to use the mold. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

No.
That is the Classics Jetfire mold, using the same trick as 3rd party companies. They made a toy that looks like the Macross Valkyrie, but with enough design differences to the original to be passed off as a completely original toy.

Hasbro once had the licence to make the original Valkire, sold as G1 Jetfire, but only for a limited time. Takara never did, which is why there is no Takara G1 Jetfire. They no longer have and never will again, which is why G1 Jetfire will never be reissued.

Bowspearer

I think you acted abit wrong for the KOs will keep be sold, KOTOYS was just a reseller and a honest one for he told us it was KOs, more then what many ppl on Ebay or IOffer do.

I am all for KOs for it feel allot bestter to do custom work on those then do it on a real deal.

Gripen1974 wrote:I am all for KOs for it feel allot bestter to do custom work on those then do it on a real deal.

Here's a thought- just recast the parts you want using junkers. You have options there of dying plastic too which gives far better results than paint anyway.

Gripen1974 wrote:BowspearerKOTOYS was just a reseller

This is debateable considering what transpired with me on their forums.

I had concerns over GenZhao and others not deliberately building in any discernible differences between the KO Dino Cassettes and the real deal.

The issue was ignored by GenZhao who proceeded to tell me to pre-order before they sold out. Along with several other people who justified them being more or less identical to the originals.

When I pointed out that regardless of GenZhao's intentions, that it amounted to culpable negligence if discernable differences weren't built into them and a scammer got hold of them and passed them off as the real thing; I was banned on the grounds that I was supposedly slandering them.

Here's the thing. Forgetting about the fact that they mean liable and what I said doesn't apply as it's an accurate comment; if they're just the reseller, then how is a comment that was clearly directed at the manufacturer (GenZhao) slandering them, unless this is being done in house?

The short answer is that the only way it could be against them is if they are the ones making them.

Therefore, your assertion that they're merely the reseller here, would appear to be incorrect.

Counterpunch wrote:

Geekee1 wrote:And here's where I'm going to say a very unpopular sentiment. If you can't afford a figure that you want, tough ****! There are plenty of figures that I want for my collection but can't afford, too bad for me. I am in no way entitled to any of them and neither are you. Suck it up.

Word.

I wish this wasn't the unpopular sentiment. I agree with you. We pay to play. It's a collector's market and they are collector's items. I'd love a Gentei Wildrider but that ship sailed. My bad.

Yeah KOToys wasn't just acting as a reseller in this case due to how CHMS worked...the problem is they did act as a decent go-between a few of the said companies (including the new one working on Powerglide's third party resurrection). That go-between was slowly getting CHMS to improve their works, and letting a the other aforementioned company to know just what size Galvatron everyone was after, amongst other things.

Now as a result we've got them canned, a bunch of canned projects (classics Toxitron, the last two tapes), and KO products are still being sold in droves by the other websites.

Yay?

EDIT: Though I will concede that looking back, I did expect this to happen too. They were getting pretty blatantly up there in Hasbro's face, using first the autobot/decep logos, then the official names, and then the packaging. :\

Swindle01 wrote:
Kotoys gave us fantastic items such as the clear transparent classics coneheads - botcon SG rodimus (that we can all AFFORD) - Gentei Wildrider (Again that we can ALL afford) - SG optimus prime (again all afford) and dozens and dozens of other figures that we could all afford cheaper than having to pay those bastards Hasbro 80+ for a figure that would be £10 at normal retail

this is a very very sad day and its real sad that alot of you keyboard warriors sit there in your chairs acting all high and mighty when mikes done nothing but OFFER you guys a choice. Hasbro didnt offer us these choices yet HE did, even if you didnt like him you still HAD the CHOICE of buying the item you wanted off him OR via ebay as ive seen alot of kotoys stuff on ebay.

The fact hasbro screws mike over on kos when hasbro makes millions everyday but then gives us bullshit like CONSTANT movie Bumblebees is just sickening and insulting

I've gotta agree with the sentiment here - I managed to fill some pretty decent holes in my collection (KO Shockwave, which, of mine anyway, was equal, if not better in quality of the original, beat-up one I had paid through the nose for previously) with KOs, that I was happy to buy KNOWING they were KOs (Dinobots, SG Prime / SG Rodimus, Classics Sunstorm) - these were all achievable by HasTak - if they had re-issued these, lowered 'exclusivity' and raised numbers, and just bloody MADE them, in that order, I would have bought the originals -

If HasTak actually catered to their collectors more, we wouldn't be here discussing this, it would be a non-issue. Getting some of these KOs are expensive enough, prices that HasTak could conceivably charge collectors - yet we get the same old 'not enough of a customer base', 'not safe enough for children' etc, etc -

People here are not looking at this in terms of 'the long game'. Whilst 3rd party product is seen as where the line is drawn NOW (with KOs more freely available than before), when KOs go further underground, legal teams at HasTak will view this as a 'first step' - eliminate the KOs.

Next up? Eliminate anyone remotely breaching IP - that would mean iGear is next - again, a company who, rather than stretching things out over a decade, giving us the 'not enough interest' reason, etc, gave us the MP conehead seekers we wanted - they will be viewed as 'crossing the line' when KOs are less available.

Once iGear is dealt with, and there is plenty of legal precedent (with KO Toys, and iGear cases documented and filed), Fansproject, Maketoys, and whoever becomes 'just successful enough' will become 'where the line is drawn', and these guys will be given a blunt ultimatum - get bought out and shutdown, or face the consequences.

Wars are never won with one big push - merely a succession of smaller campaigns. Whether you agree with them or not, this choking of the KO market is the first salvo in HasTak going against all their rivals - once these are dealt with, and everything that is not stamped 'Hasbro' or 'Takara' being pushed out of the marketplace, we'll be begging for Wave 6 Basic Bumblebees, as HasTak will be the only real game in town.

I for one, am saddened that buyer's choice has begun to be narrowed already, when we are arguably in a 'golden age' for collectors. Well, it was fun while it lasted.

Kung Fu Man wrote:They were getting pretty blatantly up there in Hasbro's face, using first the autobot/decep logos, then the official names, and then the packaging. :\

And this is why I made the decision to call Hasbro. There's a pretty significant point you've hit on here- the fact that they tried to replicate packaging.

You bring up CHMS, but when CHMS replicated the Classics/Henkei toys, they at least slapped a CHMS logo on the packaging, making them scalper-proof. The G1 KOs they were bringing out on the other hand were far too easy game for scalpers.

The old saying is that one or a few ruin it for everyone. It wasn't enough for GenZhao to simply reproduce the toys with an indent on a part somewhere or at the very least with different packaging like the other sets out there. GenZhao had to push it to the point where not only were Hasbro losing out, but every single other collector out there who owned and kept the originals MISB.

The thing to remember with this too are that not every single collector buying rare pieces is going to be well off. Some are college/university students who simply save and sacrifice to get that one extra piece.

Even if they are well off though; why should they have to suffer because some scumbag counterfeiter can't do the decent thing and alter the packaging at the very least to make the KOs instantly recognisable?

Is it a shame that Maketoys and the like might eventually suffer? Sure, but at the end of the day, it's KO Toys GenZhao who have forced this situation here, for not using the same leverage they placed on CHMS to make their packaging different enough to make them scammer-proof in terms of how they affected collectors, and trying to produce fakes of the exact toys HasTak brought out, in terms of HasTak.

Let's not lose sight of that.

Also, I would like to know why the hell everyone tries to justify KOToys existence by bringing up Shattered Glass and that they shouldn't be exclusives?
SG is all about being exclusive, if it weren't for FunPub having the idea and making them, they would never have existed, they where made to appeal to a niche market, they are not essential characters or items. I remember how when the set was revealed that 90% of people hated it due to the concept and decoes, but now that the set has become rare and expensive on the secondary market Hasbro are a bunch of money grubbing a$$h0les for not releasing them on the general market?
Seriously?

guys,since this is a ko company turned 3rd party company were talking about here. what's to stop kotoys & CHMS from rebooting their companies under newer company names,newer email addresses,newer paypal addresses & newer figure head management.

I just don't think we've seen the last of kotoys & chms. they'll be back under newer names.

i think kotoys & chms have way too many projects,ideas,merchandises,etc.. to totally disappear forever & never return. they'll be back under newer names & so forth.

anyways,i always thought kotoys & chms were originally two seperately companies that merged. but they both worked seperatel on their own unique projects. they merged in the sense of selling stuff on both sites.

perhaps kotoys will shut down but chms will stay open & keep making & releasing their stuff.

perhaps kotoys is doing a scam where their saying their shutting down. but kotoys is transferring everything over to the chms company name.

It Is Him wrote:Does anyone else find it ironic that a user named Swindle01 is defending KOToys?

Also, KOToys' owner is an antisemitic dick. F that guy and his "products."

Nope. It's exaclty what I expect, irony is the opposite of what I would expect. It's funny and apt, that's what I think it is.

BTW KO's suck IMO. I personally hate being copied for profit.

Swindle01 wrote:i dont understand why some of you guys are being royal dicks about kotoys
-SNIP-
this is a very very sad day and its real sad that alot of you keyboard warriors sit there in your chairs acting all high and mighty

Now let's take off the rose coloured glasses from that post and get real. I have a personal axe to grind against KOs and these guys for multiple reasons.

To begin with, having almost been burned on a "Scepial" Beachcomber (only being saved by a Paypal dispute), I know how easy it is to get caught out by a fake when someone passes it off as the real thing. In that case, it was the eBay seller who got screwed over, believing they were selling a genuine article.

Secondly, there were rumblings about reproducing the Godmasters on the forums. Now I'm a university student, money is not something I have alot of. Yet I sacrificed to buy all 3 MISB on eBay. What happens if I ever need to sell them for emergency funds (which would only be done when I had no other alternative) and there are fakes out there that are almost identical to the originals right down to the packaging?

Thirdly they were going into rare figures that are grail pieces for me. The Dino cassettes are a "someday" purchase, but Slamdance and Beastbox are a different story. In fact I rushed out and bought a Slamdance having to find money I didn't have just so I wasn't screwed over down the track by a fake.

If you can't see that your precious "choice" (read dodgy selfishness) screws over not only HasTak but collectors, then I hate to break it to you, but we're not the ones who are "being royal dicks" here.

Swindle01 wrote:i think some of you are missing the point - these are TOYS - a TOY shouldnt have to cost 200-300 especially considering alot of the things kotoys gave us were direct repaints of things. Im sorry but i shouldnt have to pay 200+ for just a black classics rodimus with a freddie mercury goatie

No, the person who completely missed the point here is you. If you want cheap toys, go to TRU. The fact is that in the time since you were a child (although tbbh, your attitude here has been remarkably immature), the toys we grew up with became antiques and collectors items, with the toy line both being marketed at children, and in some cases, adult collectors.

Don't want to pay $200+ for a convention exclusive, then source one at a convention. It's that simple.

Swindle01 wrote:the point is (which i think your missing) kotoys gave you a CHOICE - if you dont like kotoys then thats fine and if you dont like kos thats fine to.

Yes because reproducing G1 figures right down to the packaging doesn't give scalpers a free pass to rip people off, or screw people wanting originals over at all does it? But hey, I suppose those who own want rare pieces only have themselves to blame for being the target of scammers too, don't they?

You want choice? Do what the rest of us do when we want a rare piece- wait for a bargain or save and sacrifice- there's a choice right there. Alternately, go without, there's another choice for you. What do you know, you don't need KO Toys to give you choice as a collector at all do you?

Bowspearer wrote:At the risk of turning myself into a pariah in the fandom again, I have a confession to make. After I got banned from KO Toys' forums for voicing concerns over there being no intentionally built in differences between the KO Dino cassettes they were making and the genuine article, I did an IP check and found out their website was hosted in the US. About a week and a half ago, I used the international minutes on my mobile to report them the Hasbro, including giving them their IP address, hosting company (which is based in Michigan) and website address. Looks like they acted pretty swiftly on this one.

Kudos to you! There's no way of really knowing if this was all related, but I'd venture to guess it was.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I would not have minded some differences on the KO Dinocassettes to distinguish them from the real ones. Tampoed graphics instead of stickers springs to mind. I also went out and got the real Slam Dance and Squawk Box so I wouldn't get fooled by KOs later on.

I dunno if reporting their IP to Hasbro is what did it. An earlier post in this thread claims it was their reproducing Funpub Punch/Counterpunch that did the trick.

The owner of KOToys has delusions of grandeur and is possibly schizophrenic. He probably sees himself as some kind of badass rebel against IP law. No one really knows the real reason why KOToys is being taken down but Hasbro and its lawyers.

The part about P/CP is speculation. If it were true, Hasbro would have likely acted quicker when KO SG Prime was announced, so under further scrutiny, this idea doesn't hold a lot of water. Beryllium Baloney.

It Is Him wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I would not have minded some differences on the KO Dinocassettes to distinguish them from the real ones. Tampoed graphics instead of stickers springs to mind. I also went out and got the real Slam Dance and Squawk Box so I wouldn't get fooled by KOs later on.

I dunno if reporting their IP to Hasbro is what did it. An earlier post in this thread claims it was their reproducing Funpub Punch/Counterpunch that did the trick.

The owner of KOToys has delusions of grandeur and is possibly schizophrenic. He probably sees himself as some kind of badass rebel against IP law. No one really knows the real reason why KOToys is being taken down but Hasbro and its lawyers.

The part about P/CP is speculation. If it were true, Hasbro would have likely acted quicker when KO SG Prime was announced, so under further scrutiny, this idea doesn't hold a lot of water. Beryllium Baloney.

Yea, I too believe it's BS that the reason for them shutting down is P/CP, that thing was announced just hours before they announced them having to shut down.
Because if that was the case, they would have had to shut down earlier due to all the other BotCon/ TFCC toys they KOed.

The reasoning that the site was US based (hosting wise) and therefore under US law is much likelier.

Bowspearer wrote:

Swindle01 wrote:i dont understand why some of you guys are being royal dicks about kotoys
-SNIP-
this is a very very sad day and its real sad that alot of you keyboard warriors sit there in your chairs acting all high and mighty

Now let's take off the rose coloured glasses from that post and get real. I have a personal axe to grind against KOs and these guys for multiple reasons.

To begin with, having almost been burned on a "Scepial" Beachcomber (only being saved by a Paypal dispute), I know how easy it is to get caught out by a fake when someone passes it off as the real thing. In that case, it was the eBay seller who got screwed over, believing they were selling a genuine article.

Secondly, there were rumblings about reproducing the Godmasters on the forums. Now I'm a university student, money is not something I have alot of. Yet I sacrificed to buy all 3 MISB on eBay. What happens if I ever need to sell them for emergency funds (which would only be done when I had no other alternative) and there are fakes out there that are almost identical to the originals right down to the packaging?

Thirdly they were going into rare figures that are grail pieces for me. The Dino cassettes are a "someday" purchase, but Slamdance and Beastbox are a different story. In fact I rushed out and bought a Slamdance having to find money I didn't have just so I wasn't screwed over down the track by a fake.

If you can't see that your precious "choice" (read dodgy selfishness) screws over not only HasTak but collectors, then I hate to break it to you, but we're not the ones who are "being royal dicks" here.

Swindle01 wrote:i think some of you are missing the point - these are TOYS - a TOY shouldnt have to cost 200-300 especially considering alot of the things kotoys gave us were direct repaints of things. Im sorry but i shouldnt have to pay 200+ for just a black classics rodimus with a freddie mercury goatie

No, the person who completely missed the point here is you. If you want cheap toys, go to TRU. The fact is that in the time since you were a child (although tbbh, your attitude here has been remarkably immature), the toys we grew up with became antiques and collectors items, with the toy line both being marketed at children, and in some cases, adult collectors.

Don't want to pay $200+ for a convention exclusive, then source one at a convention. It's that simple.

Swindle01 wrote:the point is (which i think your missing) kotoys gave you a CHOICE - if you dont like kotoys then thats fine and if you dont like kos thats fine to.

Yes because reproducing G1 figures right down to the packaging doesn't give scalpers a free pass to rip people off, or screw people wanting originals over at all does it? But hey, I suppose those who own want rare pieces only have themselves to blame for being the target of scammers too, don't they?

You want choice? Do what the rest of us do when we want a rare piece- wait for a bargain or save and sacrifice- there's a choice right there. Alternately, go without, there's another choice for you. What do you know, you don't need KO Toys to give you choice as a collector at all do you?

BTW,It's extremly selfish to hate kotoys because they made ko toys out of exspensive tf toys that you own. it's a selfish act because other fans deserve the right to buy these ko's TF toys for much cheaper prices. not everyone wants to nor can afford the high secondary prices for the liscensed TF toys.

who cares if tf fans with exspensive stuff get their stuff devalued because of reissues,ko's or re-releases. I don't care,i love it when this happens. THESE ARE TOYS THAT ARE MEANT TO BE ENJOYED BY AS MANY AS POSSIBLE. not by only a select few. These tf toys were never meant to make others jealous or to make others pay beyond high secondary prices.

Tidalwavex wrote:BTW,It's extremly selfish to hate kotoys because they made ko toys out of exspensive tf toys that you own. it's a selfish act because other fans deserve the right to buy these ko's TF toys for much cheaper prices. not everyone wants to nor can afford the high secondary prices for the liscensed TF toys.

I think it's extremely selfish of me that I have to eat every day, pay my electricity bill, insurances, put petrol in my car, oh and pay the mortgage.

I deserve to not have to pay for any of that! Can you suggest a way I can do it cheaper?

who cares if tf fans with exspensive stuff get their stuff devalued because of reissues,ko's or re-releases. I don't care,i love it when this happens. THESE ARE TOYS THAT ARE MEANT TO BE ENJOYED BY AS MANY AS POSSIBLE. not by only a select few. These tf toys were never meant to make others jealous or to make others pay beyond high secondary prices.

You fool. It's not just about the exclusive stuff. It's also about KO original hard to find toys. Some of us actually want genuine Hasbro/Takara figures in our collection.

I got screwed over by a G1 Ratchet reissue. I didn't appreciate it one bit. I thought I was getting a Takara Tomy reissue G1 Ratchet. Instead I got a KO G1 Ratchet with crappy plastic missing windows. YOU THINK I DESERVED THAT?

And as for these toys being enjoyed by as many as possible. Blow it out your backside mate. There's plenty of toy stores you can walk into to find TF's for people to enjoy. These exclusives add another level to the COLLECTORS.

Selfish? The only selfish ones are people like you who scream that all figures should be created equal.

No.

Burn wrote:I think it's extremely selfish of me that I have to eat every day, pay my electricity bill, insurances, put petrol in my car, oh and pay the mortgage.

I deserve to not have to pay for any of that! Can you suggest a way I can do it cheaper?

If you weren't so bothered about paying over-the-odds prices for 'genuine' limited run products, would you have this problem?

Burn wrote:You fool. It's not just about the exclusive stuff. It's also about KO original hard to find toys. Some of us actually want genuine Hasbro/Takara figures in our collection.

I have no problem buying legit re-issues - Soundwave, Blaster, Insecticons - I was going to buy Encore Devastator, but, HasTak couldn't even be bothered to make sure they all had their goddamn HEADS, so that's a $120 gamble, plus shipping, plus shipping back that I'd rather not take, thanks. KOs have filled the same niche that 3rd party has - giving collectors what they wanted, rather than waiting on HasTak to bother their asses catering to (in their own words, 'limited market' - collectors, again - see a pattern here?)

Such loyalty to a corporation who clearly don't give as much of a **** as they should about you or your peers (again, headless overpriced Constructicon, anyone?) displays a bit of a blind devotion, imho.

Burn wrote:And as for these toys being enjoyed by as many as possible. Blow it out your backside mate. There's plenty of toy stores you can walk into to find TF's for people to enjoy. These exclusives add another level to the COLLECTORS.

Selfish? The only selfish ones are people like you who scream that all figures should be created equal.

No.

Wow. So, to be a COLLECTOR worth your salt, you have to spend wads of cash on figures other COLLECTORS can't afford, so you can look down your nose at others who have other things to spend their hard-earned cash on?

Yeah, I mightn't have as much cash to spend as you, but does that make me 'less' of a worthy collector? No. Do I come on here quibbling about the price of a 3rd party 'niche' collectibles (which, incidentally, I've spent hundreds of dollars on - BECAUSE HASBRO COULDN'T BE ARSED)? No. Small independent runs = higher cost. Simple.

Do I resent having to pay a fully-fledged, stock-market-traded, global corporation, who only listen 'sometimes' to their rabid fandom enough to do 'exclusive, limited' runs of remolds that they have created already of much loved characters, and push it as 'edgy, and collector driven', and 'elitist' and 'snobby' to boot, to do so? YES.

I swear, HasTak take the piss sometimes, and 'COLLECTORS' fall for it hook, line, and sinker, sometimes with little or no argument.

-edit-

**** it. I don't need to justify my collection beliefs to someone who doesn't know me.

Sweet. A going out of business sale. Snagged a Clone Seeker and Black Death Screamer.

I just ordered 3 loose clone seekers and a loose KO Henkei Thrust. Already got my orange KO Henkei Sunstorm and KO Wildrider so I'm good.

I have to agree with those who say it isn't fair for there to be no differences between the originals and the KO's because if you're willing to pay $500+ for a Henkei Wildrider, then you certainly should get the genuine article without any concerns that you might be getting a KO.

At the same time, it was nice to have access to these figures (knowing that they're KO's, not the real deal) for a price far more reasonable than what the scalpers charge on ebay. The solution for all parties involved is ultimately in the hands of Has/Tak. We call it supply and demand, which is precisely the problem here. There is far too short of a supply of certain figures (many of which Has/Tak could still produce if they chose to as long as they have the molds intact, lookin' at you seekers and Rodimus/Hot Rod), but instead they choose not to.

I'm sure there's a genuine sense of satisfaction for MISB collectors knowing that they have the real deal in their collection, seeing what it goes for these days, and good for them, seriously. But for me, an open my figures, play with them and put them on the shelf collector (who even does a bit of customizing when I feel like it), KO's are a great alternative to paying what Has/Taks all-too short production runs on certain figures have created because of the demand.

Part of me hates to see these guys go out of business, but one thing that I hope (though I doubt) will come of this is that other such KO companies will learn that they MUST do something to differentiate a KO from the real deal, at least on the packaging and the manufacturer's stamp on the figures themselves (I'd prefer it if my KO's actually said something like "CHMS 2011" instead of Hasbro and/or Takara etc.) because even though it's still infringement, at least it helps to protect the collectors who want to be assured that what they're purchasing is a genuine Has/Tak product in the aftermarket.

Well for the curious the tapes are sold out. I managed to snag a Slamdance/Squawkbox in my order before it, so hopefully they'll be on their way with my Animated Medic.